Wild Shifter Build Help

[Alistaroc]

First off, despite the optimization tag, this is not for some fine Gouda or Gorgonzola, merely to make a reasonably effective level 16 character.
And a disclaimer, I m extremely new to all these rules on grappling and natural attacks as well as Incarnum(technically D&D in general), so all of this may actually be totally wrong. :smalleek:

Our party has:
An Artificer multiclass that makes scrolls of 6 Twin Orbs of Force in 5 days for 2100 gold
A Cleric/Bone Knight that controls something in the vicinity of 120+ HD of undead minions, the strongest being an Adult Hex Dragon Dracolich IIRC.
A Swordsge/Earth Dreamer/Deepstone Sentinel that basically just f***s up the terrain for our enemies.
An archer multiclass that shoots things almost two miles away.
And potentially more inbound, I think caster or two

I've worked with all the players as a sort of pseudo-assistant DM to make these characters, and they're not half bad, I think...


So, I've set out to create a natural weapons user, preferably with a boatload of claws, bites, slams, or whatever else. Totemist looked pretty great, and the pre-errata Weretouched Master is pretty damn sweet. So, I threw together someone I like to call Tentacle Cat.

Obah-Blessed Shifter with 2 flaws
Totemist 10/Necrocarnate 1/Weretouched Master 5
For feats, I picked out Improved Grapple, Scorpion's Grasp, Bonus Essentia, Cobalt Charge, Sapphire Sprint, Double Chakra(shoulders), Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, and Necrocarnum Acolyte
Bind Girallon Arms to Totem and throw in 5 essentia Bind Totem Avatar and Phase Cloak to Shoulder Chakra, shape Dread Carapace with 5 essentia and Rageclaws with none, and you're done.
Shift into the hybrid or animal Weretiger form, and you've got something like 10 natural claw attacks that all activate Dread Carapace, with 4 triggering the extra damage from Girallon's. All before strength bonuses, which are somewhere in the +13 category I believe.
A Fanged Ring, Permanent Arms of Plenty/Girallon's Blessing, and an Incarnum Focus for the Shoulder and Totem slots are the only required items.
This also however require DM ruling that Fanged Ring applies to natural attacks and that it satisfies prerequisite feat requirements. It'd probably fly with my group anyway, but just noting this.



BUT



Then I discovered the wonder of the Black Blood Cultist. The BBC is savage man. Make a successful grapple check and hit with ALL, that's right, ALL your natural attacks?! Like hot damn man, that sounds great!
Except I would need to give up the badass shapeshifting of the Weretouched Master
And on top of that, I'm not sure how to best make a 16th level character with BBC 10.
I need some serious help with this, my knowledge extends only as far as; Skarn are cool, and Black Blood Cultists are awesome grapple/natural weapon melee brutes.



So in summary;
Thoughts on the Tentacle Cat? I think it may actually have just a bit too much damage(6d6+4d4+200 if I'm mathing right) now that I look over it. Suggestions for losing some power, but not the flavor of a multi-armed badass cat?
HOW DO I MAKE BLACK BLOOD CULTIST WORK??? It really looks great but I've seen so many suggestions I don't know where to start.

Any help is appreciated, thank you in advance, and I apologize for any confusion this may cause; I'm not t 100% as I write this... :smallannoyed:

[The Viscount]

You currently need a shifter feat to qualify for weretouched master. As of now you can stand to lose bonus essentia, since necrocarnate gives you all the essentia you need, if slowly.

That being said, I'm a little uncertain as to why you took a level in necrocarnate. Is it just for more essentia? If so it's a decent idea, but I think the totemist's double bind at 11 provides more use. You might consider binding Girallon Arms to Arms as well for rend when 2 claw attacks (from any source) hit.

What is the fanged ring for here? Are you attempting to use it to gain INA with all your claws? That's not how the ring works, so I wouldn't necessarily assume that your DM would allow it. The ring grants INA with unarmed strikes. Do you plan on making iterative attacks with unarmed strikes? If so, then the ring is useful.

The essentia invested isn't adding up. If you choose Girallon Arms for ESC then you can invest 5 essentia (if your Con is 18+) but then your limit for Rageclaws is 3. If you choose Rageclaws for ESC then both melds have a limit of 4.

Rageclaws doesn't seem to be pulling its weight here. Do you expect to be brought below 0 on a regular basis? If you can spare a feat for Dragontouched, you gain access to draconic melds from Dragon Magic, notably Claws of the Wyrm and Dragon Tail which give 2 claws and tail respectively, both when shaped so you don't need binds.

Let me tally attacks to make sure we're on the same page. So far we have in a pounce 2 claws from weretiger, 2 claws from girallon's blessing, 2 claws from arms of plenty, 2 claws from Obah-Blessed (using stats from Girallon's Blessing or Girallon Arms) 2 (or 4 depending on interpretation) claws from Girallon Arms, and 1 bite from weretiger. I count 11 Nat attacks, or 13 if your DM rules that Girallon Arms creates 4 spirit claws instead of 2 spirit arms and 2 enhancements to your existing hands. As for which to use on your Oba-Blessed arms, it's a tossup. Girallon's blessing uses full strength and increases the chance of rend occuring, but Girallon Arms have +5 to attack and damage. You currently have 2 sources of rend, each tracked separately Does that sound right?

Could you explain what you mean by "4 triggering the extra damage from Girallon's"?

Black Blood Cultist is indeed very powerful, but entry is a bit difficult. The largest barrier is rage, which you would have to obtain through a dip such as in barbarian, but Lion Totem Barbarian would remove the need for Weretouched Master's pounce. You'd lose a lot more from totemist than you would gain from Black Blood Cultist, in my opinion. Arms and Shoulders are powerful chakras, and more binds are difficult to get.

[Alistaroc]

You currently need a shifter feat to qualify for weretouched master. As of now you can stand to lose bonus essentia, since necrocarnate gives you all the essentia you need, if slowly.

That being said, I'm a little uncertain as to why you took a level in necrocarnate. Is it just for more essentia? If so it's a decent idea, but I think the totemist's double bind at 11 provides more use. You might consider binding Girallon Arms to Arms as well for rend when 2 claw attacks (from any source) hit.

What is the fanged ring for here? Are you attempting to use it to gain INA with all your claws? That's not how the ring works, so I wouldn't necessarily assume that your DM would allow it. The ring grants INA with unarmed strikes. Do you plan on making iterative attacks with unarmed strikes? If so, then the ring is useful.

The essentia invested isn't adding up. If you choose Girallon Arms for ESC then you can invest 5 essentia (if your Con is 18+) but then your limit for Rageclaws is 3. If you choose Rageclaws for ESC then both melds have a limit of 4.

Rageclaws doesn't seem to be pulling its weight here. Do you expect to be brought below 0 on a regular basis? If you can spare a feat for Dragontouched, you gain access to draconic melds from Dragon Magic, notably Claws of the Wyrm and Dragon Tail which give 2 claws and tail respectively, both when shaped so you don't need binds.

Let me tally attacks to make sure we're on the same page. So far we have in a pounce 2 claws from weretiger, 2 claws from girallon's blessing, 2 claws from arms of plenty, 2 claws from Obah-Blessed (using stats from Girallon's Blessing or Girallon Arms) 2 (or 4 depending on interpretation) claws from Girallon Arms, and 1 bite from weretiger. I count 11 Nat attacks, or 13 if your DM rules that Girallon Arms creates 4 spirit claws instead of 2 spirit arms and 2 enhancements to your existing hands. As for which to use on your Oba-Blessed arms, it's a tossup. Girallon's blessing uses full strength and increases the chance of rend occuring, but Girallon Arms have +5 to attack and damage. You currently have 2 sources of rend, each tracked separately Does that sound right?

Could you explain what you mean by "4 triggering the extra damage from Girallon's"?

Black Blood Cultist is indeed very powerful, but entry is a bit difficult. The largest barrier is rage, which you would have to obtain through a dip such as in barbarian, but Lion Totem Barbarian would remove the need for Weretouched Master's pounce. You'd lose a lot more from totemist than you would gain from Black Blood Cultist, in my opinion. Arms and Shoulders are powerful chakras, and more binds are difficult to get.

I assumed that a shifter trait counted as a feat, my bad.

Yes, necrocarnate is for essentia to max out Girallon Arms and Dread Carapace, then dump the rest into feats, rageclaws, and Totem Avatar. As for the extra totem bind t Totemist 11, it seems to me that I already have 3 great binds, and I don't see a reason to replace one with a totem bind.

I'm not super familiar with natural attacks or unarmed strikes, but if a creature with claws makes a claw attack, it's unarmed, so I wasn't sure if that would all work out. I had assumed that the Fanged Ring would work for claws. Guess not though. :smallfrown:

The ESC is for Dread Carapace.

As you can see I'm having a little trouble fitting feats in... but those melds seem decent, so I can try.

Sounds right.

Woops, I read the entry as only granting bonuses on rolls with the claws from Girallon Arms.

As for Black Blood Cultist, the only way I can see to do it would be Barbarian 4/Totemist 2/Black Blood Cultist 10 or Barbarian 1/Totemist 5/Black Blood Cultist 10

[Venger]

I assumed that a shifter trait counted as a feat, my bad.
It does not.

Since you seem interested in INA, take that, it's a [shifter] feat, so will count regarding qualification.


Yes, necrocarnate is for essentia to max out Girallon Arms and Dread Carapace, then dump the rest into feats, rageclaws, and Totem Avatar. As for the extra totem bind t Totemist 11, it seems to me that I already have 3 great binds, and I don't see a reason to replace one with a totem bind.
It really isn't. the use of girallon arms and dread carapace comes from additional functionality, not the small bonuses they provide. the bonuses are nice, yes, but due to how reinvesting essentia works, you'll have enough to keep them topped off when you need them.

You are mistaken. totem bind is the best bind for a variety of reasons, and they wouldn't be replaced due to how your progression would shake out with more totemist levels.

the totemist handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2943.0) does a good job explaining the basics.

here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=11823659&postcount=30) is a list of totemist melds by chakra, listing function and relative usefulness (sans draconic melds, which are all in dragon magic)


I'm not super familiar with natural attacks or unarmed strikes, but if a creature with claws makes a claw attack, it's unarmed, so I wasn't sure if that would all work out. I had assumed that the Fanged Ring would work for claws. Guess not though. :smallfrown:

short answer: that's not how that works

longer answer: read ur-priest's monstrous handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook) it explains everything about grappling, monsters, natural attacks, and unarmed attacks.


The ESC is for Dread Carapace.

As you can see I'm having a little trouble fitting feats in... but those melds seem decent, so I can try.

You don't need to assign ESC to a meld, you can designate it to a different one every day, and it's not needed for carapace. ESC is a good feat, but it's hardly vital.

[quoe]As for Black Blood Cultist, the only way I can see to do it would be Barbarian 4/Totemist 2/Black Blood Cultist 10 or Barbarian 1/Totemist 5/Black Blood Cultist 10[/QUOTE]

as the viscount said, bbc offers you little you don't already have from totemist. if you want to grapple and deal natural attacks, more totemist is just better in every way.

if you enter whatever class combo you end up going with via dragonborn water orc, you'll nab all the draconic melds alongside a +6 to con and various other goodies.

[The Viscount]

Oh I see by triggering the bonus from girallon arms you meant the bonus to attack and damage. That's correct, by my reading the bonus should only apply to the 4.

If you are using ESC on Dread Carapace then you can only invest 4 essentia in it and girallon arms (3 base, plus 1 for expanded totem capacity for arms, plus 1 for ESC for carapace).