Shapechange

[Corey]

The discussion of Shapechange in http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?435104-Level-9-spells! has gotten pretty complicated, so I'm starting a new thread just for one powerful spell.

Shapechange basics include:

You can assume a form, with CR up to your level (which has to be at least 17 in practice, and for the purpose of this discussion I'll just assume is 20).
You can change to another allowable form as an action.
You do not get Legendary Actions, Lair Actions, or the Spellcasting trait.
From this it would seem to follow that you do get, where applicable, Innate Spellcasting, other innate features, and even Legendary Resistance.
You need to have seen one of a creature to Shapechange into it. (For the purpose of this discussion, I'll assume you've seen one of everything, or at least one each of a lot.)


There's a limitation in practice that you can't use a feature if it conflicts with the concentration required to maintain Shapechange itself. That still leaves you with potential access to:

Legendary resistance (Dragons)
Draconic breath weapons (Ditto)
Draconic Frightful Presence (Ditto)
At-will Fireball (Pit Fiend) (probably less good than the breath weapons)
Raise Dead (Celestials)
Greater Restoration, Lesser Restoration, and various healing effects (Ditto)
Lie detection (Ditto)
Goodberry (Dryads)
Various charm effects (Succubus/Incubus, Aboleth, Dryad, etc.)
Plane Shift (many)
Various tunneling, burrowing or corrosion effects (e.g. Purple Worm)


and more.

Questions that come to mind start:

Can you change into the same kind of creature multiple times and re-cast its spells (e.g, creating enough Goodberries to feed a substantial city)?
If not, can you change into different kinds of creature and use more copies of the same effect? (E.g. Legendary Resistance, Plane Shift)
Do the charm effects last beyond the duration of the spell?


Permissive answers to any of those questions add a lot of potential power to the spell.

[MaxWilson]

Hmmm. If you get Legendary Resistance, that would make Shapechange better than I thought, because you could use it to resist having your concentration blown.

Edit: Oh, also you could shapechange into an Adult Red Shadow Dragon, kill a bunch of humanoids, and thereby acquire a small army of shadow henchmen permanently under your control.

[PoeticDwarf]

First of your questions: I would say yes, that is what a level 9 spell can, I think the third question is a half, the charmed creature listens to the, lets say, Dryad, and not to you, but it is still friendly to the companions if that is in the description. Not sure about your second question.

[Corey]

First of your questions: I would say yes, that is what a level 9 spell can, I think the third question is a half, the charmed creature listens to the, lets say, Dryad, and not to you, but it is still friendly to the companions if that is in the description. Not sure about your second question.

Well, if you're saying "Yes, you can change into the same kind of creature multiple times:smallbiggrin: and use all their daily skills each time" then you should also say "Yes, you can change into multiple kinds of creature that happen to have a daily skill in common and use it after every change."

I tend to agree with your negative answer to my third question then, because:

You answer to the first question(s) implied that you think one is truly changing into different creatures. In that case, once one stops being a certain creature, one should lose the charmedness that creature enjoyed from its charmees.
The alternative would be bizarre -- you could change in and out of Succubus form 1000 times in an hour and, for the next day, have 500+ adoring sex slaves.

[Malifice]

Is there a meaningful difference betwen spellcaating and innate spellcating?

I can turn into a sorcerer and not a wizard?

For mine, spellcating is out. Full stop.

[Giant2005]

For questions 1 and 2, I'd say no. With respect to its rules regarding HP (Changing forms cannot increase the HP beyond what your current form has), I think it is say to say that the RAI is that you can't shapechange to increase the resources beyond what the first form possesses. If your first form has an ability to cast Goodberry without requiring the Spellcasting trait (Somehow) and so does the second form, then you can go ahead and use it on the second form assuming you hadn't already blown the use of the first form. If you changed shape into something that could not cast Goodberry between those two forms, then you would lose the ability to cast Goodberry prior to taking that third form and be unable to cast it.
Also, I feel this line needs commented on: "From this it would seem to follow that you do get, where applicable, Innate Spellcasting, other innate features, and even Legendary Resistance." The book clearly states that you don't gain any Spellcasting or Legendary Actions of the creature you are Shapechanging into. Sure I can see the loopholes that might give you enough room to wiggle out of that requirement regarding Legendary Resistance at least, but I am pretty sure that the RAI is so obvious on this one that it would be a major challenge to get a DM to agree with you.

[CNagy]

Legendary Resistance should work in a Shapechange, it is not listed under Legendary Actions or Lair Actions in the statblock of the creature.

As for Spellcasting, the Monster Manual makes it clear that Innate Spellcasting and Spellcasting are different; the former is an ability, like Levitate 1/day or Magic Missile at will. The latter is a class feature, and a creature with Spellcasting has spell levels, slots, and potentially the ability to know alternate spells than what are listed in the statblock (the same way not all Sorcerers will end up choosing the same list of spells, or how Wizards will change which spells they have prepared). Innate Spellcasting should work with Shapechange, since the magic of the creature is not a learned trait but rather part of their being.

[JackPhoenix]

The alternative would be bizarre -- you could change in and out of Succubus form 1000 times in an hour and, for the next day, have 500+ adoring sex slaves.

It's not THAT bad...changing form to a different succubus/incubus takes an action, as does using charm, with one round being 6 second, you could do it only 300 times in a hour, for 300- (some will succeed on their saves) slaves

[HoarsHalberd]

If you maintain control over creatures you've made whilst in shape change, necromancers could be gods. One transforms into a death tyrant, the other into an adult red shadow dragon, the death tyrant turns all the bodies into zombies and the dragon steals all their shadows. If they attack a village, small town (or an orc camp/goblin lair for you ends justify the means chaotic goods) they could easily muster hundreds maybe even thousands of shadows and zombies.

EDIT: Forgot no undead rule. But still, hundreds of shadows isn't something to be turn your nose up at.

[Corey]

It's not THAT bad...changing form to a different succubus/incubus takes an action, as does using charm, with one round being 6 second, you could do it only 300 times in a hour, for 300- (some will succeed on their saves) slaves

Only 300 sex slaves? :smallmad: That's barely enough with which to RP Caligula!!

[pwykersotz]

I rule away Legendary Resistance, but as a houserule that's probably beside the point.

I would rule negatively on all of them, barring intriguing interaction with the story. So:

The adventurer Wizard Mordecai always transforms into the Pit Fiend Mordecai. Turning back into a Pit Fiend does not replenish expended abilities. Also, the form used is what generates persistent magic that does not require concentration. It vanishes when the form does.

I don't feel that these rulings gimp the spell unnecessarily. It's still a crazy awesome spell that I'd take in a heartbeat as a player.