Getting Around Deflect Arrows

[alanek2002]

I'm building a character for a Epic level game, and I've got workarounds for most of the common archer killers.

But I'm stonewalled by Deflect arrows and Infinite Deflection.
From the SRD:
You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flatfooted.
Emphasis mine.

Flatfooted is no problem for people with uncanny dodge, so I can't rely on that.

Then I turned to superior invisibility for my woes, and my current issue is with spot. It takes a mere DC 20 check to detect the presence of an acting invisible creature; DC 40 to pinpoint the location. In Epic, everybody and their mother can (Or should) Be able to make that check, if they're a monk.

However, the aware of the attack bit is intriguing to me. While Spot does let them note where I am with ease, down to the square, I still maintain total concealment.

My Question is thus: Even if they know what square I am in, Since I still maintain total concealment, would they be aware of my attacks, and be able to deflect them? Or not?


Does the target having Uncanny Dodge change this?

[animewatcha]

Does the enemy have true seeing? If no, Invisible spell metamagic is a start.

[rockdeworld]

Woe once again for a lack of rigorous definitions.

By RAW, even using Epic Spot rolls only gives you the location of a creature - it still has total concealment against you. So you can't see it make attacks. If this means you're not aware of its attacks, then you can't deflect it. Otherwise you can.

Uncanny Dodge doesn't make any reference to being aware of the attack, so it doesn't change this.

[Troacctid]

Uncanny Dodge isn't relevant here. It only prevents them losing their Dex to AC; they're still flatfooted and can't use Deflect Arrows.

[Curmudgeon]

So you can't see it make attacks. If this means you're not aware of its attacks, then you can't deflect it.
Unlike bullets, which are too fast to see in flight, arrows are visible once launched. You don't need to see the attacker to be aware of the attack.


Uncanny Dodge isn't relevant here. It only prevents them losing their Dex to AC; they're still flatfooted and can't use Deflect Arrows.
It depends on the version of Uncanny Dodge. In particular, the Scout ability says:
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a scout cannot be caught flat-footed and reacts to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so.

[Firest Kathon]

If you find a way to make your arrows more massive than usual, your enemy cannot use Deflect Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#deflectArrows) anymore.

Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected.

[rockdeworld]

Unlike bullets, which are too fast to see in flight, arrows are visible once launched. You don't need to see the attacker to be aware of the attack.
This is one argument, yes. The other would be that arrows are too fast to see also, particularly if they're pointed at you.

[Inevitability]

If you find a way to make your arrows more massive than usual, your enemy cannot use Deflect Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#deflectArrows) anymore.

So... Launch Bolt with a colossal crossbow bolt?

[Curmudgeon]

So... Launch Bolt with a colossal crossbow bolt?
That only works if your size is Colossal.
You cast this spell on a crossbow bolt, causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you had fired it from a light crossbow, using a ranged attack roll.
Unlike melee weapons, where there is allowance for using weapons of inappropriate size, you can only use ranged weapons of the correct size for you.

[Psyren]

Just use large or huge arrows (so that they stay large in flight.) This is incidentally also the way to beat Wind Wall. You will need to increase your own size to do so but you won't need a new bow.

[Samalpetey]

Could you make your arrows invisible, using the Blurstrike property as a baseline for the effects?

[Curmudgeon]

Just use large or huge arrows (so that they stay large in flight.) This is incidentally also the way to beat Wind Wall.
Large arrows aren't "unusually massive". For Wind Wall the minimum bypass requirement is a bolt from a ballista (a Huge heavy crossbow). Arrows at the same size do less damage than bolts, so it's up to the DM whether Huge arrows are adequate or if they need to be Gargantuan or larger.

[Amphetryon]

Unlike bullets, which are too fast to see in flight, arrows are visible once launched. You don't need to see the attacker to be aware of the attack.Could you point me to the relevant rules citation of this, please? I'm particularly curious about how that interacts, by RAW, with arrows that, thanks to various PrCs and shenanigans, are demonstrably flying faster than the speed of sound.

[alanek2002]

Woe once again for a lack of rigorous definitions.

By RAW, even using Epic Spot rolls only gives you the location of a creature - it still has total concealment against you. So you can't see it make attacks. If this means you're not aware of its attacks, then you can't deflect it. Otherwise you can.

Uncanny Dodge doesn't make any reference to being aware of the attack, so it doesn't change this.
Excellent....

Unlike bullets, which are too fast to see in flight, arrows are visible once launched. You don't need to see the attacker to be aware of the attack.




Could you point me to the relevant rules citation of this, please? I'm particularly curious about how that interacts, by RAW, with arrows that, thanks to various PrCs and shenanigans, are demonstrably flying faster than the speed of sound.



This is one argument, yes. The other would be that arrows are too fast to see also, particularly if they're pointed at you.

Agreement with these guys.

Even if the opponent isn't denied dex to AC, you still get a +2 bonus on attacks, making no distinction between ranged or melee attacks. Or the speed of the ranged attack.

So the final question, as posed by Rockdeworld is thus: Are you aware of ranged attacks made by an invisible attacker, before they hit you? (Whether or not you keep your dex bonus to AC.

[Psyren]

Large arrows aren't "unusually massive". For Wind Wall the minimum bypass requirement is a bolt from a ballista (a Huge heavy crossbow). Arrows at the same size do less damage than bolts, so it's up to the DM whether Huge arrows are adequate or if they need to be Gargantuan or larger.

While for the record I agree with you that Huge is okay, that isn't stated to be a minimum requirement anywhere, neither in the wind wall spell nor in deflect arrows. So you could at least make an argument for Large arrows because "unusually massive" can be interpreted very broadly. You could read it as any size larger than the weapons table for instance, since the table gives usual sizes (medium and small.)

[Curmudgeon]

While for the record I agree with you that Huge is okay, that isn't stated to be a minimum requirement anywhere, neither in the wind wall spell nor in deflect arrows.
The requirement is specified as follows:

Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance. (A giant-thrown boulder, a siege engine projectile, and other massive ranged weapons are not affected.)

The siege weapon category includes ballista and catapult attacks as well as boulders tossed by giants.

Ballista: A ballista is essentially a Huge heavy crossbow fixed in place.
If you look at the Siege Engines section (Dungeon Master's Guide, pages 99-100) you'll see that a ballista bolt is the lightest, smallest, siege engine projectile.

[Segev]

An arrow with an iron shaft is unusually massive for an arrow.

More seriously, in epic levels, you should be able to find magic you can access - via item, ally, or permanent effect - which can make you any size category you like. Heck, it should be pretty simple to get an Epic Spell which would give you the ability to choose your size at will for a year or longer. I'll look into that in a bit; gotta go afk now.

[alanek2002]

No Epic magic; while the game becomes unstable at epic levels, there's no need to make it worse by using epic magic.

[rockdeworld]

Curmudgeon, the same text you quoted references rocks thrown by giants. Here's the text for that:

Rock Throwing (Ex)

Adult giants are accomplished rock throwers and receive a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls when throwing rocks. A giant of at least Large size can hurl rocks weighing 40 to 50 pounds each (Small objects) up to five range increments. The size of the range increment varies with the giant’s variety. A Huge giant can hurl rocks of 60 to 80 pounds (Medium objects).
That directly implies even small objects are massive ranged weapons.

Now if only arrows had sizes...

[Curmudgeon]

That directly implies even small objects are massive ranged weapons.
No, it says that rocks of at least 40 lbs. are massive ranged weapons.

Now if only arrows had sizes...
They have a size, but it's not the one listed.
A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder. If you had a 40 lb. arrow, it would qualify as a Small object.

[Stegyre]

Curmudgeon, the same text you quoted references rocks thrown by giants. Here's the text for that:

That directly implies even small objects are massive ranged weapons.

Now if only arrows had sizes...
I confess that I'm not seeing your point. In this context, "small object" is referring to an object (or character) of the S size, like a Halfling or gnome, weighing 40-50 pounds. That is considerably more massive than any ranged weapon usable by S, M, or even L characters.

A better argument, imo, is that, by RAW, ballista bolts aren't all that massive. Ten bolts for a Huge Crossbow collectively weigh 4 lb, or 0.4 lb each. Notable irony: that is less than either the dart or javelin, both of which are ranged weapons that can be deflected (at least, presumably: the feat description is "ranged weapons" and there is nothing "unusually massive" about a ranged weapon for M-size characters.

I view this as a rules dysfunction. Really, what they wanted was to forbid deflecting projectiles with a high energy, whether that was due to size (thrown bolder) or velocity (ballista darts). But that isn't what they said, and D&D doesn't really provide a way for modeling such energy anyway.

[Chronos]

Quoth rockdeworld:

By RAW, even using Epic Spot rolls only gives you the location of a creature - it still has total concealment against you. So you can't see it make attacks. If this means you're not aware of its attacks, then you can't deflect it. Otherwise you can.
Unless you can make the DC 80 check to defeat an illusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spotDefeatIllusion).

For making an enemy unaware of the attack, if you can get a ranged weapon that counts as light, the Mosquito's Bite skill trick might work.

Unusually massive projectiles probably won't work, because any epic character with Deflect Arrows is likely to also have Exceptional Deflection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#exceptionalDeflection) (and Infinite Deflection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#infiniteDeflection), for that matter).

[Segev]

No Epic magic; while the game becomes unstable at epic levels, there's no need to make it worse by using epic magic.

It's not technically necessary. Giant size is a Wu Jen spell. I forget the level, but you want a 17th level caster to be able to get Colossal size. I'll pretend it's level 9, as that is the worst case scenario (it's lower than that). An item of that as a command-activated device would last for long enough in any combat, and would cost 275,400 gp.

Making it work only once per day would reduce this to 55,080 gp. You could buy several.

Heck, use giant size as a core spell for a magic arrow that's a one-off, use-activated item. The arrow itself becomes colossal (weapon size) and does damage as if fired from a colossal bow. 7,650 gp per arrow. Might be able to get the ammo discount if you finagle it with your DM, which would make it 153 gp/arrow.

[Flickerdart]

You can always just take two Bloodstorm Blade levels and treat your ranged attacks as melee attacks (thus making them immune to Deflect Arrows).

[rockdeworld]

I forgot the bit about weapon sizes being different from object sizes, thanks for reminding me. That means a regular arrow (which is a light weapon when wielded as a melee weapon), is a tiny object.

They have a size, but it's not the one listed. If you had a 40 lb. arrow, it would qualify as a Small object.
Or more accurately, 8 lb, based on Table: Creature Size and Scale. Granted items might not use that table.


Unless you can make the DC 80 check to defeat an illusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spotDefeatIllusion).
That too.

[Psyren]

The requirement is specified as follows:



If you look at the Siege Engines section (Dungeon Master's Guide, pages 99-100) you'll see that a ballista bolt is the lightest, smallest, siege engine projectile.

Right, I got that, but those quotes don't say anything about Large projectiles not being "massive." It's a DM call. Your train of logic fits but it's not the only possible interpretation.

[alanek2002]

Hrm. Well, for the DC 80 check to defeat a illusion, It mentions that it must have a visual component...

And Invisibility has an invisible component?

Bah. Yeah, that DC 80 check beats it.

Sadly, Bloodstrom blase is only for thrown weapons, not all ranged attacks. I suppose I could Throw my arrows...

Wait. What. I literally can throw my arrows.

I may take a penalty for using them as improvised melee weapons, but I can then throw those. I can even power attack with them! (And If I read it right, I can still use Distant shot with it.)

Granted, I have some neat things that require me to be using them as ranged attacks, but for the occasional monk, it could definitely work.

[Doc_Maynot]

Why not use a Hank's Force Bow? It seems it would prevent many of the issues at hand.

[KingSmitty]

Sadly, Bloodstrom blade is only for thrown weapons, not all ranged attacks. I suppose I could Throw my arrows...

Wait. What. I literally can throw my arrows.

I may take a penalty for using them as improvised melee weapons, but I can then throw those. I can even power attack with them! (And If I read it right, I can still use Distant shot with it.)

bloodstorm blade lets you throw longswords, which defeats deflect arrows.

Instead of throwing arrows, throw javelins. no penalties there and i think it still beats deflect arrows

[Curmudgeon]

Right, I got that, but those quotes don't say anything about Large projectiles not being "massive."
Why would it need to? It specifies that siege engine projectiles are not subject to deflection. Huge heavy crossbow bolts, AKA ballista bolts, are on that list. Arrows aren't on the list. If you can independently establish that arrows are sufficiently massive by some rules-backed criteria, then they could also be excluded from deflection.

[Stegyre]

Instead of throwing arrows, throw javelins. no penalties there and i think it still beats deflect arrows
Apparently not, by the RAW: "Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed. . . . Unusually massive ranged weapons . . . can’t be deflected."

A javelin is just a regular ranged weapon. Nothing in the rules indicates it would qualify as "unusually massive." Ergo, deflect should work, but see dysfunction discussion, below.

It specifies that siege engine projectiles are not subject to deflection. Huge heavy crossbow bolts, AKA ballista bolts, are on that list. Arrows aren't on the list. If you can independently establish that arrows are sufficiently massive by some rules-backed criteria, then they could also be excluded from deflection.
The problem, as I pointed out, up-thread, is that one can establish, by "rules-backed criteria" how "massive" a ballista bolt is and what would be as (or more) massive:

Ballista is just a Huge-sized crossbow, so two size categories larger than the corresponding medium weapon. (We do all agree that "Huge" here (i.e., in the DMG discussion) is a reference to a weapon sized for a Huge creature, not an object that is Huge size, right?)
RAW gives weights for M-sized weapons and equipment and for scaling up or down for other sizes. A group of 10 crossbow bolts weighs 1 lb, or 0.1 lb each. For L-sized weapons, that is doubled. While the rule is not expressly continued, the rule gives no reason for varying the pattern, so H-sized should be quadrupled. Ergo, a Huge crossbow bolt for a ballista weighs 0.4 lb.
Thus, any ranged weapon weighing as much or more than 0.4 lb is "unusually massive," if that is the criteria we are going by based on Huge crossbow bolts. This would include the following M-sized weapons: Javelins (2 lb), Darts (0.5 lb), Daggers (1 lb), Shortspears (3 lb), Clubs (3 lb), Throwing Axes (2 lb), Light Hammers (2 lb), Tridents (4 lb), Sling Bullets (0.5 lb), Sais (1 lb) . . .
It seems pretty clear that when WotC wrote the weapon weight rule, they had no conception of linear versus cubic changes. Someone a bit brighter fixed that in the Animal Growth description. Using better, real-world math, a crossbow bolt four times the length of a regular one would have a weight at least 64 times greater, all else being equal (same materials and proportions). This would make a Huge-sized crossbow bolt 6.4 pounds, and none of the foregoing examples would be "equally massive." Personally, I think this is a much better guideline, but it is not RAW. (But the RAW here is dysfunctional.)

[sovin_ndore]

Unusually massive ranged weapons and ranged attacks generated by spell effects can’t be deflected.

My reading of this would focus on the spell effect aspect rather than the massive ranged weapon aspect. If you could get something like a Devlin's Ring [Book of Eldritch Might] whose only purpose was to generate arrows so you don't need quivers, your problem would be solved. I am not sure this has been published in WotC 3.5 but is generally a very weak magic effect.

[Flickerdart]

My reading of this would focus on the spell effect aspect rather than the massive ranged weapon aspect. If you could get something like a Devlin's Ring [Book of Eldritch Might] whose only purpose was to generate arrows so you don't need quivers, your problem would be solved. I am not sure this has been published in WotC 3.5 but is generally a very weak magic effect.
The effect of a magic item is not a spell effect.

[Psyren]

Why would it need to? It specifies that siege engine projectiles are not subject to deflection. Huge heavy crossbow bolts, AKA ballista bolts, are on that list. Arrows aren't on the list. If you can independently establish that arrows are sufficiently massive by some rules-backed criteria, then they could also be excluded from deflection.

Where is your rules-backed criteria for the definition of "massive?" You have examples, but the use of "other" means it is an inclusive list, not an exclusive one. As Stegyre pointed out, there's multiple ways you can define that term in this context.

[sovin_ndore]

The effect of a magic item is not a spell effect.
Magic items will often generate spell effects even without themselves casting spells. I would take Boots of Speed as a good example:

As a free action, the wearer can click her boot heels together, enabling her to act as though affected by a haste spell for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the haste effect need not be consecutive rounds.
I would say that by RAW 'as though affected by a haste spell' and a 'spell effect' would satisfy most standard rules lawyering.

The problem in this case is more that I don't know a spell that makes ammunition and so the items are not creating spell effects so much as providing a custom utility magic function. It might fly with a DM though, and seems more reasonable than arguing arrow mass.

And if Devlin's Ring (being 3rd party and generating mundane arrows) is not 'spell effect'-ish enough, you could try to get a variant of Gloves of Endless Javelins (MiC 194, 7,000 gp). The ammunition generated is +1 and made of force (essentially ghost touch). It also sounds more like a spell effect, but would still fall victim to the fact that it is not actually emulating a spell (due to a spell that does this not really existing).

[Chronos]

And the Exceptional Deflection epic feat will work on all ranged attacks, including siege weapons and spell effects.

[Flickerdart]

'spell effect'-ish
There is no "ish." Something is either a spell effect, or isn't. There are items that cast spells on you. Boots of speed do not cast Haste, they just allow you to act as though under the effect of it.

[Curmudgeon]

Where is your rules-backed criteria for the definition of "massive?"
I don't have one that I think is sufficiently RAW rigorous, which is why I would default to exclude anything not specifically listed. Huge heavy crossbow bolts are listed, and thus don't need to be established as otherwise "massive"; arrows are not listed, and thus do need to be justified in some way.

[sovin_ndore]

There is no "ish." Something is either a spell effect, or isn't. There are items that cast spells on you. Boots of speed do not cast Haste, they just allow you to act as though under the effect of it.
Under the effect of a spell is a spell effect no matter how you cut it, regardless of source. The '-ish' is specifically because the magic item is not directly providing a spell effect (because there is no spell that does quite that thing).

I don't think that there is anything coming to mind for me that will directly bypass infinite deflection by RAW but the spell effect clause would be the easier way to make this work. I am tossing out 'kind of close' suggestions but admit I know I am missing the mark. Is there a workaround we can come up with?

[Flickerdart]

Under the effect of a spell is a spell effect no matter how you cut it, regardless of source. The '-ish' is specifically because the magic item is not directly providing a spell effect (because there is no spell that does quite that thing).
You are not under the effect of haste. You act as though you were, but there is no actual haste effect upon you. The difference is not terribly important for haste, but in the case of spells that interact with other people or effects (or in the case of effects that interact with active spells) the result would be different.

The important thing is just because some items are capable of creating spell effects (of which boots of speed are not one), it does not mean that all items create spell effects.

[Psyren]

I don't have one that I think is sufficiently RAW rigorous, which is why I would default to exclude anything not specifically listed. Huge heavy crossbow bolts are listed, and thus don't need to be established as otherwise "massive"; arrows are not listed, and thus do need to be justified in some way.

Arrows are "ranged weapons," so the only possible point of contention is "massive" which is not defined in the RAW.

Excluding anything not specifically listed is a perfectly reasonable approach, but not the only possible one.

[rockdeworld]

[the rules] don't say anything about __________ not being
This argument, while technically correct, results in the same ridiculous results as "death doesn't mean you stop moving", "elves don't NOT have 8 arms with which to qualify for multiweapon fighting", and "humans can't be affected by Charm Person because they don't have an MM entry and the DMG doesn't list them as humanoid". I don't think it's sound.

Edit: put a blank space in the quote to make it clear this applies to any rule.

[Psyren]

This argument, while technically correct, results in the same ridiculous results as "death doesn't mean you stop moving", "elves don't NOT have 8 arms with which to qualify for multiweapon fighting", and "humans can't be affected by Charm Person because they don't have an MM entry and the DMG doesn't list them as humanoid". I don't think it's sound.

Except "massive" and "large" are synonyms (and relative besides), so trying to compare that to any of these silly examples is specious.

[rockdeworld]

I'm not comparing it to those examples, I'm using literally the same argument and substituting the rule it's applied to. I'll go back and put a blank space in the quote to make it clearer.

"The rules don't say anything about a dead person not being able to move, talk, and participate in combat."
"The rules don't say anything about an elf not being a creature with 8 arms."
"The rules don't say anything about a human not being a creature that isn't humanoid."