Building Sheogorath

[5w337x7007h]

I need pointers on what Sheogorath would be as a mortal character in Pathfinder. I'd like to push my current Utili-Sorc in that direction, and all I can think of is, while in town, buy a rod of wonder. CORRECTION! I CAN MAKE ONE!! :smallbiggrin: I have the feats and the spell! So awesome! I've even got a Minotaur's phallus which could be the perfect rod for the job!

All I can think of are random things, but Sheogorath has a method to his madness. FUN. What would you guys recommend for such insanity?

[squab]

33% chance he turns up as some awesome powerful angel-like creature that helps you if you are good and attacks you if you are evil.
33% chance he turns up as some awesome powerful demon/devil-like creature that attacks you if you are good and helps you if you are evil.
33% chance he turns up as a peanut. That's it. A simple, ordinary peanut. You could eat it if you like. You gain: the nutritional benefits of a single peanut. And have successfully destroyed the avatar of a god. Digested it even.
1% chance you just reach his voicemail.

EDIT: Reading comprehension fail.

[5w337x7007h]

Okay, Imagine him a MORTAL. FEMALE. SORCERER. Lvl 11. Also a Utility Caster with a mnemonic vestment. Ohh! And my spell list is pretty much a smattering of all kinds of spells, with spell focus in Conjuration.

[Extra Anchovies]

So you want Sheogorath, but also not Sheogorath?

You'll have to be a bit clearer in what you're looking for here.

[5w337x7007h]

Agh... Isn't that what Sheogorath is all about? Being the Spanish Inquisition (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAn7baRbhx4)?!

What I'm looking for isn't Sheogorath, but items that could make a character capable of Sheogorath's comical insanity.

[Draco_Lord]

I think your problem lies in that Sheogorath's only power is that he can do anything. He is someone with the power to rewrite everything around him, turn them into what ever, make them not exist, make them to have always been slightly to the left. He doesn't have a set power, because he just wills things to be. And the only reason he capable of such comical insanity is because he is insane. He is a Mad God.

So, unless you are wanting to build someone capable of everything, but too insane to properly control, which I think you might have some trouble getting by your DM, your only bet is a rod of wonders with such a long list that it can do everything, and that you can slightly influence to fit the situation.


Alternatively, are you asking for things to put in your rod? Ideas for what kind of effects a god of madness would employ?

[5w337x7007h]

I guess the idea is a shenanigan in its own right. Maybe I do my influence through cursed wondrous items with comical effects? Like a belt of gender bending, or a picky bag of holding?

[Spore]

Sheogoraths insanity normally only affects the already mental members of this world. He likes to shake up bewildered minds, and he abhors the boring and stable. Either you take part in his mad schemes, or you simply die.

To copy his humor, you need a healthy dose of randomness (the internet will aid you in this endeavor), some of humankind's most depraved sins (bestality, fratricide etc.) and a healthy dose of cheese and cheese related puns.

[squab]

Sheogoraths insanity normally only affects the already mental members of this world. He likes to shake up bewildered minds, and he abhors the boring and stable. Either you take part in his mad schemes, or you simply die.

To copy his humor, you need a healthy dose of randomness (the internet will aid you in this endeavor), some of humankind's most depraved sins (bestality, fratricide etc.) and a healthy dose of cheese and cheese related puns.

Let me look at that for a second....


Sheogoraths insanity normally only affects the already mental members of this world. He likes to shake up bewildered minds, and he abhors the boring and stable. Either you take part in his mad schemes, or you simply die.

To copy his humor, you need a healthy dose of randomness (the internet will aid you in this endeavor), some of humankind's most depraved sins (bestality, fratricide etc. the internet will aid you in this endeavor) and a healthy dose of cheese and cheese related puns(the internet will aid you in this endeavor).

So Sheogorath is the internet. That's basically what I'm getting from this.

[Spore]

Let me look at that for a second....



So Sheogorath is the internet. That's basically what I'm getting from this.

More or less. He is the internet with entirely evil intentions. It's like a google search omitting all the safe search results. :)

[Socratov]

More or less. He is the internet with entirely evil intentions. It's like a google search omitting all the safe search results. :)

Nope. Sheogorath is basically 4Chan. Sometimes you can find some more benevolent parts of 4Chan, sometimes all you can get is /b/...

[MorgromTheOrc]

Nope. Sheogorath is basically 4Chan. Sometimes you can find some more benevolent parts of 4Chan, sometimes all you can get is /b/...

I'd say 8Chan, less moderation.

[Socratov]

I'd say 8Chan, less moderation.

to-may-to, to-mah-to. Though to be fair, if you have played the Shimmering Isles you will know that even chaos comes with a bit of order...

[Spore]

Nope. Sheogorath is basically 4Chan. Sometimes you can find some more benevolent parts of 4Chan, sometimes all you can get is /b/...

But a huge part of 4chan is devoted to actual useful discussion...

[Socratov]

But a huge part of 4chan is devoted to actual useful discussion...

well, similarly a whole part of Sheogorath's agenda is to make the place interesting, though still there afterwards. I mean, he is not evil, just a bit mad... (and bored)

Now that I mention it, I'd build him as some combination of changeling, factotum, Cha(n)meleon (hehe) and Master of Masks.

[Spore]

I mean, he is not evil

Oh he is clearly evil.

[Socratov]

Oh he is clearly evil.

why does he strike you as clearly evil? If you are judging by the writings of the Aedra and Deadra then you might think so, but please keep in mind that he is mostly a chaotic element within the order that is Aedra & Deadra. At first this is not very clear and he can be a grand jackanape when dealing with the PC.

However, when you play the Shimmering Isles (the only part I remotely liked about Oblivion) you will see that he is mostly about chaos, insanity and the unexpected. In his realm the literal law is: "That which doesn't kill you only makes you stranger" (Thank you Heath Ledger for speaking these words in your guise as the Joker). As the Deadric prince in his realm he is at times lucid and polite, and at times uncouth with dickish tendencies. One thing that struck me while playing Both the Shimmering Isles and hte quests in other Elder Scrolls games: Sheogorath is mainly bored and likes to be entertained. He is not interested in who is the greatest hero, but who can releive his boredom, if only for a short while.

If anything Sheogorath is CN: a pure form of chaos, the driving force or agent behind uncertainty & insanity and the champion of boredom and ennui (love that word).

Furthermore I propose a new logical rule of thumb for gaming and superntural personalities:

Sheogorath's razor: do not mistake for cosmic malice what can be explained by a cosmic lack of entertainment.

[Threadnaught]

More or less. He is the internet with entirely evil intentions. It's like a google search omitting all the safe search results. :)

Oh he is clearly evil.

I accuse you Sporeegg of never having paid attention to Sheogorath while playing an Elder Scrolls game, or even never having played an Elder Scrolls game before.

Sheogorath isn't concerned with Good or Evil, he is the epitome of Chaotic Neutral. All he cares about is causing Chaos where it would be most interesting. He does abide by a certain set of standards and isn't all about driving people mad, another part of his portfolio is artistry.
In one tale he is concerned with a kingdom because his gifts are slowly taken away from the population by a well meaning yet tyrannical king. He sees that nobody is allowed to create art, so he provides every newborn with his other blessing, the one that people are so afraid of, madness. Eventually the king is overthrown by his son and the kingdom grows more colourful and interesting.


I find that the best way to play Sheogorath is to find a way to lie to others, while being completely honest. Say something that implies the opposite is true, without outright declaring it. Make circular statements that must be carefully unwrapped to be understood. Talk about whatever random thing comes into your head, switch off your filter and make it in character speech.
Find someone who looks as though they're trying to take advantage of you or someone you're interested in and turn them into your new toy, whisper into their ear about all the amazing things that could happen if they do something crazy and drive themselves mad.
Remember you're Sheogorath, you don't drive people mad, you just point them in the direction they need to go in order to drive themselves mad.

5w337x7007h it has nothing to do with your abilities, but your play style. So just go crazy.

[Spore]

I accuse you Sporeegg of never having paid attention to Sheogorath while playing an Elder Scrolls game, or even never having played an Elder Scrolls game before.

I think you have overlooked the fact where mortals are his playthings and abused for his amusement. Have you forgotten the quest where you send Pelagius spiraling into madness by instilling paranoia, fear and anger in his mind? If you think destroying a person's mind from the LITERAL inside is not evil but neutral I heavily disagree. He also threatens to kill you if you don't oblige his requests on several occasions (mainly because my nord warrior refused to help him drive a true king to madness at first but there is no way out otherwise).

Maybe I should just treat him like a minor D&D god instead of just an incredibly powerful outsider. Because we are both correct I guess. His MAIN schtick is madness, chaos and creativity. But his portfolio also expands into CE and CG. He torments his servants but I guess if we go by D&D definitions he at least recognizes the Hero of Kvatch saving that one artist from the living painting (which is undoubtedly his work) and allowing it.

[Socratov]

I think you have overlooked the fact where mortals are his playthings and abused for his amusement. Have you forgotten the quest where you send Pelagius spiraling into madness by instilling paranoia, fear and anger in his mind? If you think destroying a person's mind from the LITERAL inside is not evil but neutral I heavily disagree. He also threatens to kill you if you don't oblige his requests on several occasions (mainly because my nord warrior refused to help him drive a true king to madness at first but there is no way out otherwise).

Maybe I should just treat him like a minor D&D god instead of just an incredibly powerful outsider. Because we are both correct I guess. His MAIN schtick is madness, chaos and creativity. But his portfolio also expands into CE and CG. He torments his servants but I guess if we go by D&D definitions he at least recognizes the Hero of Kvatch saving that one artist from the living painting (which is undoubtedly his work) and allowing it.

why does he strike you as clearly evil? If you are judging by the writings of the Aedra and Deadra then you might think so, but please keep in mind that he is mostly a chaotic element within the order that is Aedra & Deadra. At first this is not very clear and he can be a grand jackanape when dealing with the PC.

However, when you play the Shimmering Isles (the only part I remotely liked about Oblivion) you will see that he is mostly about chaos, insanity and the unexpected. In his realm the literal law is: "That which doesn't kill you only makes you stranger" (Thank you Heath Ledger for speaking these words in your guise as the Joker). As the Deadric prince in his realm he is at times lucid and polite, and at times uncouth with dickish tendencies. One thing that struck me while playing Both the Shimmering Isles and hte quests in other Elder Scrolls games: Sheogorath is mainly bored and likes to be entertained. He is not interested in who is the greatest hero, but who can releive his boredom, if only for a short while.

If anything Sheogorath is CN (if he isn't a prime example of Orange and blue morality - warning TvTropes link); a pure form of chaos, the driving force or agent behind uncertainty & insanity and the champion of boredom and ennui (love that word).

Furthermore I propose a new logical rule of thumb for gaming and superntural personalities:

Sheogorath's razor: do not mistake for cosmic malice what can be explained by a cosmic lack of entertainment.

[illyahr]

Anything created from nothing is madness. Song is madness. Art is madness. If something is "greater than the sum of its parts" it partially falls under Sheogorath's purview. Creativity is madness. The Shivering Isles are divided between Mania, the creative aspects of madness, and Dementia, the destructive aspects of madness.

People view the creative as normal so his destructive tendancies get more focus but that couldn't be farther from the truth. He revels in both creation and destruction. He revels as much in poetry and music as he does arson and murder. He lives in the moment with no thought to past or future, cause or consequence.

Remember the 13 Blessings:


For Our Lord Sheogorath, without Whom all Thought would be linear and all Feeling would be fleeting.

Blessed are the Madmen, for they hold the keys to secret knowledge.

Blessed are the Phobic, always wary of that which would do them harm.

Blessed are the Obsessed, for their courses are clear.

Blessed are the Addicts, may they quench the thirst that never ebbs.

Blessed are the Murderous, for they have found beauty in the grotesque.

Blessed are the Firelovers, for their hearts are always warm.

Blessed are the Artists, for in their hands the impossible is made real.

Blessed are the Musicians, for in their ears they hear the music of the soul.

Blessed are the Sleepless, as they bask in wakeful dreaming.

Blessed are the Paranoid, ever-watchful for our enemies.

Blessed are the Visionaries, for their eyes see what might be.

Blessed are the Painlovers, for in their suffering, we grow stronger.

Blessed is the Madgod, who tricks us when we are foolish, punishes us when we are wrong, tortures us when we are unmindful, and loves us in our imperfection.

[Threadnaught]

I think you have overlooked the fact where mortals are his playthings and abused for his amusement. Have you forgotten the quest where you send Pelagius spiraling into madness by instilling paranoia, fear and anger in his mind?

FALSE!
You treat Pelagius' mind and undo Sheogorath's influence. You don't undo the damage Sheogorath did, he dindunuthin, you just remove his presence from the majority of Pelagius' mind.

What invited Sheogorath into Pelagius' mind? At a young age, Pelagius was given a ring by his ambitious aunt Potema, the ring was designed to damage the Willpower of the wearer, driving them to insanity. In addition to this, his mother had an abusive relationship with him that helped increase his paranoia and Vaermina gave him bad dreams at night which only further caused him to lose his mind.
Sheogorath just had tea parties with him, that is all.

Most of the people he drives mad are done so as a result of their own frustration, whenever the player is involved, Sheogorath just considers the craziest thing he could possibly have a mortal do.


If you think destroying a person's mind from the LITERAL inside is not evil but neutral I heavily disagree.

An entire generation of children being born insane is quite cruel, but at least they never knew sanity. That's a silver lining to the second evil act, the first one being to tear a woman apart to create musical instruments from her body.


He also threatens to kill you if you don't oblige his requests on several occasions (mainly because my nord warrior refused to help him drive a true king to madness at first but there is no way out otherwise).

I think you forgot the part about him being a Mad God. Also, no, the quest inside Pelagius' mind is to treat his madness. You may either refuse to go along with Sheogorath's game because, well, everything is a game to him, or you may refuse to go along, because you want Pelagius to stay mad. You cannot refuse to go along with Sheogorath's game because you care about Pelagius' sanity, Sheogorath even states that Pelagius' mind is balanced and boringly sane once you complete that particular quest.


He torments his servants but I guess if we go by D&D definitions he at least recognizes the Hero of Kvatch saving that one artist from the living painting (which is undoubtedly his work) and allowing it.

FALSE!
The Brush of Truepaint is not a Daedric Artifact of Sheogorath's, it is in fact an Aedric Artifact created with Dibella's hair as its bristles. The ability to travel to the inside of a painting is granted by Dibella, who had given the brush to the artists father years before the arrival of the Champion of Cyrodiil.


Sheogorath is simply Chaos incarnate.

[Socratov]

You know, sometimes I'm curious wether the Aedra and Deadra are based on the Nordic and/or celtic mythological figures while the Almsivi represent a modern approach to mythology...

[Eldan]

Almsivi (and more generally, Morrowind and Dunmeri mythology) seem to have an Eastern flavour to me, not a modern one. And they manage to slot the Daedra in quite well. (Interestingly, the Aedra seem to get mentioned far less.)

[Strigon]

Having played and loved Oblivion - I've logged literally hundreds of hours on it - I will be able to weigh in on the discussion in a few moments.
The following is a Public Service Announcement, which shall serve as a placeholder for my actual advice.

It's the Shivering Isles. Shivering.

[Threadnaught]

Having played and loved Oblivion - I've logged literally hundreds of hours on it - I will be able to weigh in on the discussion in a few moments.
The following is a Public Service Announcement, which shall serve as a placeholder for my actual advice.

It's the Shivering Isles. Shivering.

Be chill, Socrotov will be punished appropriately, right Socrotov? Yeah that's right Socrotov... I'd been biting my tongue over that since I read Sporeegg's reply to my own.

Seriously though Socratov, the Aedra, ignoring Talos, are the creators of Mundus. The mortal beings that sacrificed their own bodies to form Mundus and Nirn. They landed in Tamriel once in the Adamantium Tower.
Talos is basically a Saint, the Daedra are like a more benevolent Pagan version of the satan, all 16 of them. Well 17 if you count Sheogorath twice, the guy is so crazy his power transferred into a mortal vessel and he became the opposite of himself.
Pagan because the Daedric Princes are forces of nature, they are the concepts they're the god of, given physical form. Satan, because they can't resist playing with all the bits of Mundus that interest them the most, despite them not actually making it.

The Dunmer used to worship Mephala and Azura, but the Almsivi betrayed Lord Indoril Nerevar in their lust for power, Mehrunes Dagon, Nerevar's closest friend and advisor Dagoth Ur of House Dagoth had noticed the betrayal and took the power of the dead god Lorkhan, an Aedra, and used its power to conquer Morrowind in their own name. Azura had no power over the Tribunal or Dagoth Ur, however, she had enough power to transform the rest of the Chimer's skin to an ashen black as a symbol of the Almsivi's betrayal.
De da de de da dum.


If you want Norse Mythology, take a look at the Skaal and Nordic religion. Ysmir Dragon of the North fought Alduin the Worldeater to stop the end of the world. A young lad journeyed across the Nordic ancestral homeland that they totally didn't colonize in a campaign of constant genocide and found the elements that make up the world, freeing them from the Greedy Man (the dead god Lorkhan). Beowulf, Gwendylow, Gwendylow's mother and Gwendylow's twin can all be found in the Bloodmoon expansion of Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim respectively. Oh sorry, Uderfrykte, Uderfrykte Matron and Uderfrykte.
Dragons are either angellic beings or demigods, apparently Giants are the same, but took on a weaker more elf-like form and the reason the Dwemer were referred to as Dwarves, is because the Giants came up with the term before they lost their speech somehow, to refer to the Dwemers' lower stature compared to that of the Giants.


My three favourite Sheogorath tales are Sixteen Accords of Madness, v. VI (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._VI), Sixteen Accords of Madness, v. IX (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._IX) and The Contest of Wills (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Myths_of_Sheogorath).
It's cute how he is accused of going out of his way to drive mortals to insanity, when these stories prove that he just has to sit back and let the mortals and gods drive themselves mad in their futile attempts to beat him.

[Strigon]

The thing about Sheogorath is that he is the Prince of Madness. Like The Joker, he's an agent of Chaos - or maybe Chaos is one of his agents. Maybe he is Chaos; who knows?

But in any case, bringing out the insanity in mortals comes as easily to him as breathing does to us. It's what he does. It is, literally, who he is. And, like breathing, there are times when he does it on purpose, and times when it just happens as he goes about his day. Kind of a stretched metaphor, but there have been worse.

He's this weird juxtaposition of chaos, order, and balance that only serves to make him more unpredictable. According to Oblivion, he spends much of his time literally sat in his throne, making plans. Planning, thinking, judging the character of everyone who enters his domain - all things he does, despite being the Avatar of Chaos.
Likewise, it also shows us that he's in balance - Dementia and Mania, two halves of a whole. You might get the Sheogorath that skips rope, or you might get the Sheogorath that's no more gleeful than a hearse.
Sheogorath isn't just some manic, nonsense-spewing lunatic; he's highly intelligent, manipulative, and plans far in advance. Somehow, the Prince of Madness can be more methodical than most, while still being batcrap crazy.

You want to make Sheogorath? Get every spell and ability you can get your hands on, plan far ahead, but don't let anyone know your plan. Also, act on each and every impulse you get. No filters.

[Sheogoroth]

Well, I really like probability, particularly in outcomes.
Not sure if Sorcerers get Reincarnation, but I made this little list (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B5zIKaUwxsxtPWW-kxpxjwlDOscuUa5PT6cil23b1bo/edit?usp=sharing).
From my interpretation, the best way to PLAY Sheogorath is not to be Robin-Williams-zany so much as to make all of your actions be plausibly harmful or beneficial.
For example- your ally dies and instead of casting raise dead- you throw out this crazy Reincarnation variant.

You could probably make a Rod of Wonder metamagic rod that applies the effect on cast.
Also, use this (http://www.traykon.com/pdf/The_Net_Libram_of_Random_Magical_Effects.pdf) for the random effect table.

I would make him addicted to This (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/drugs/strange-fluids).

And make him an avid user of Warp Touch (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/specialability.shtml) on both allies and enemies.

[Socratov]

Having played and loved Oblivion - I've logged literally hundreds of hours on it - I will be able to weigh in on the discussion in a few moments.
The following is a Public Service Announcement, which shall serve as a placeholder for my actual advice.

It's the Shivering Isles. Shivering.
Oops, been a while since I logged hours on Oblivion (IMO 3rd of the three Elder Scrolls games I played)...

Be chill, Socrotov will be punished appropriately, right Socrotov? Yeah that's right Socrotov... I'd been biting my tongue over that since I read Sporeegg's reply to my own.
So, who is this Socrotov fellow?

Seriously though Socratov, the Aedra, ignoring Talos, are the creators of Mundus. The mortal beings that sacrificed their own bodies to form Mundus and Nirn. They landed in Tamriel once in the Adamantium Tower.
Talos is basically a Saint, the Daedra are like a more benevolent Pagan version of the satan, all 16 of them. Well 17 if you count Sheogorath twice, the guy is so crazy his power transferred into a mortal vessel and he became the opposite of himself.
Pagan because the Daedric Princes are forces of nature, they are the concepts they're the god of, given physical form. Satan, because they can't resist playing with all the bits of Mundus that interest them the most, despite them not actually making it.

The Dunmer used to worship Mephala and Azura, but the Almsivi betrayed Lord Indoril Nerevar in their lust for power, Mehrunes Dagon, Nerevar's closest friend and advisor Dagoth Ur of House Dagoth had noticed the betrayal and took the power of the dead god Lorkhan, an Aedra, and used its power to conquer Morrowind in their own name. Azura had no power over the Tribunal or Dagoth Ur, however, she had enough power to transform the rest of the Chimer's skin to an ashen black as a symbol of the Almsivi's betrayal.
De da de de da dum.


If you want Norse Mythology, take a look at the Skaal and Nordic religion. Ysmir Dragon of the North fought Alduin the Worldeater to stop the end of the world. A young lad journeyed across the Nordic ancestral homeland that they totally didn't colonize in a campaign of constant genocide and found the elements that make up the world, freeing them from the Greedy Man (the dead god Lorkhan). Beowulf, Gwendylow, Gwendylow's mother and Gwendylow's twin can all be found in the Bloodmoon expansion of Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim respectively. Oh sorry, Uderfrykte, Uderfrykte Matron and Uderfrykte.
Dragons are either angellic beings or demigods, apparently Giants are the same, but took on a weaker more elf-like form and the reason the Dwemer were referred to as Dwarves, is because the Giants came up with the term before they lost their speech somehow, to refer to the Dwemers' lower stature compared to that of the Giants.


My three favourite Sheogorath tales are Sixteen Accords of Madness, v. VI (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._VI), Sixteen Accords of Madness, v. IX (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:16_Accords_of_Madness,_v._IX) and The Contest of Wills (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Myths_of_Sheogorath).
It's cute how he is accused of going out of his way to drive mortals to insanity, when these stories prove that he just has to sit back and let the mortals and gods drive themselves mad in their futile attempts to beat him.

I was more taking about the celtic and nordic gods in mythology (Odin and Thor, Aengus Og and Brighid, and the like) which are divine-ish in nature (they are effectively unaging, but they can die of other causes), and each and every one of them has his/her flaws, and all of them include a penchant for messing with mortals for fun. Some of them are more benevolent then others but most them act according to a nature. As for the Jotuns, Ymir has said to make up the world, which seems connected by giant tree and so on. So the translatability to the Aedra and Deadra is not exactly lost on me.

[Spore]

I bow myself to Socratov's TES knowledge. Your arguments are valid. But then again, if you view Aedra and Daedra as Law and Chaos (Order and Conflict), because the Aedra rarely interfere and mostly just try to bring order back to Mundus, how can Sheogorath be the "epitome of chaos" when ALL daedra are the epitome of chaos?

With the examples of Azura being CG (I see creating a Azura's Black Star as heavy influence from Molag Bal as the captured souls are all to power Coldharbour), Sheogorath being CN and Molag Bal being CE. Of course some Daedric Princes are less chaotic than others but the mirroring of Daedra and Aedra would bring myself to the conclusion that all Daedra have to be chaotic (because they want to change things).

Now even in very classic D&D a lawful character can be a changer but how would you then express this polarity?

[Socratov]

I bow myself to Socratov's TES knowledge. Your arguments are valid. But then again, if you view Aedra and Daedra as Law and Chaos (Order and Conflict), because the Aedra rarely interfere and mostly just try to bring order back to Mundus, how can Sheogorath be the "epitome of chaos" when ALL daedra are the epitome of chaos?

With the examples of Azura being CG (I see creating a Azura's Black Star as heavy influence from Molag Bal as the captured souls are all to power Coldharbour), Sheogorath being CN and Molag Bal being CE. Of course some Daedric Princes are less chaotic than others but the mirroring of Daedra and Aedra would bring myself to the conclusion that all Daedra have to be chaotic (because they want to change things).

Now even in very classic D&D a lawful character can be a changer but how would you then express this polarity?

Well, Bacon/Nectie (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality) of course

Well, slightly more serious: these are deific beings and thusnot beholden to our cramped line of thinking. So their morality/nature axis doesn't need to make sense. For instance, the Aedra want to keep things in order (as they created it) while the Deadra want to change things (wither micro for entertainment, or macro for, well, change), so you could argue that the Aedra and Deadra would (I would liek to stress this as we are diving deep into hypotheticals here) operate on an alignment grid of law vs. chaos and status quo vs. change. This way you need to assign them two components to make up their Alignment (which would become a grossly oversimplification, but whatever). You could even add the good vs. evil axis back in and add any more axises (?) to represent other common characteristics to form alignment cubes, hypercubes and so on. Mind you, this will complicate matters a bit. Plus a PHD on dimensional mathematics wouldn't be entirely a luxury as much as it would become a neccessity.

[illyahr]

But Sheogorath's true form was that of the Daedric Prince of Order. He was turned into the Mad God by the other Daedric Lords because he was cramping their style. After the events of Shivering Isles, he returns to being the Prince of Order with the hero becoming the new Mad God (incidentally, this means that Skyrim is the first time two heros from the games met each other). He mellowed out a bit, but he still resumed his mantle of Prince of Order.

[Sheogoroth]

But Sheogorath's true form was that of the Daedric Prince of Order. He was turned into the Mad God by the other Daedric Lords because he was cramping their style. After the events of Shivering Isles, he returns to being the Prince of Order with the hero becoming the new Mad God (incidentally, this means that Skyrim is the first time two heros from the games met each other). He mellowed out a bit, but he still resumed his mantle of Prince of Order.

But Sheogoroth attempts to break madness into Mania and Dementia, the idea being that it is caught in-between two extremes and rather than strike a middle ground, he swings in-between them.
This shows up very much in the Isles themselves but not so much in his personage. He was, by his dialogue, more characterized by a zany unpredictability, huge logic leaps, and a backward indifference.
I think the essence of who he is fundamentally his unpredictability, he was so unpredictably unpredictable that just when you expect him to be the most insane, he becomes completely orderly!

[Spore]

Well, Bacon/Nectie (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlueAndOrangeMorality) of course
Mind you, this will complicate matters a bit. Plus a PHD on dimensional mathematics wouldn't be entirely a luxury as much as it would become a neccessity.

I would be a lot more motivated for college if they finally offered mathematical philosophy!



I think the essence of who he is fundamentally his unpredictability, he was so unpredictably unpredictable that just when you expect him to be the most insane, he becomes completely orderly!

So. much. quote potential.