Thor and Loki in agreement

[Loreweaver15]

This really struck a chord with me. As much as they squabbled, even in Norse mythology, the one thing Thor and Loki always agreed on was that mortals were awesome.

[hroþila]

They might be inclined to qualify that "mortals are awesome" statement, though (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html).

[Millstone85]

What is Loki's alignment supposed to be, again?

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

What is Loki's alignment supposed to be, again?

Chaotic Neutral, judging from the real-world myths.

[hamishspence]

That said, didn't The Giant say that OoTS Thor owed more to Marvel Comics than to either Viking legend or D&D splatbooks?

If so, Loki may be similar, at least in personality.

[Millstone85]

It sounds like he was never established as "Loki the ## god".
Nevermind, then.

[hamishspence]

From Start of Darkness, the crayon drawings include Loki, in a particular narration scene:

as one of the "older evil gods that broke ranks to defend him"

suggesting that he's Evil.

[Millstone85]

He gives such a positive and collected vibe for a probably CE guy.
Maybe he is just that deceptive, or the "worthy opponent" type.

[kivzirrum]

Yeah Loki's definitely implied to be an evil god. Then again maybe he's just really really chaotic.

[Sylian]

God of Flames and Chaos. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html)

He's probably Chaotic Evil.

[littlebum2002]

Loki is in Deities & Demigods. If anyone has it we can know for sure.

[NerdyKris]

Evil doesn't mean "Wants to destroy all life as we know it." He doesn't need to be good to not want the world destroyed. He gave his reason in the last strip, he finds this world fun and doesn't want to destroy it unless he has to. Being evil also doesn't prevent him from agreeing with Thor on something. Clearly the good and evil gods can get along when needed, or they would never have successfully made World 2.0.

[Gray Mage]

Loki is in Deities & Demigods. If anyone has it we can know for sure.

Rich doesn't base his gods on D&D, though.

[Hazetar]

Not this thread. Omg. What a failure.

I think Loki will try something else after this voting. This is too simple for him just to vote no because "we can handle this we are gods we are not cowards".

I don't think Loki is working with Thor. I think he is working for himself. But the story will focus on Hel and her vote now. I can't wait to see reaction of Loki!

[Windscion]

Thor is agreeing with Odin, not Loki.

[Gift Jeraff]

Rich doesn't base his gods on D&D, though.

Except for Tiamat, of course.

[littlebum2002]

Rich doesn't base his gods on D&D, though.

Ahhh, re-reading the thread I see I misunderstood the question. If we're talking about mythology, I say CN, if we're talking about the comic I say CE because of the scene from SoD.

[Millstone85]

Loki is in Deities & Demigods. If anyone has it we can know for sure.I googled it out of curiosity.

http://i.imgur.com/fOoYMEq.png

[RWB]

{scrubbed}

[The Giant]

Please do not discuss real world religions as per the Rules of Posting—even historic ones such as the actual Norse myths. You can talk about Loki as a character in the story but not what real people who worshipped the Norse gods believed, much less how that interacted with any other religion at the time.

[Olinser]

Evil doesn't mean "Wants to destroy all life as we know it." He doesn't need to be good to not want the world destroyed. He gave his reason in the last strip, he finds this world fun and doesn't want to destroy it unless he has to. Being evil also doesn't prevent him from agreeing with Thor on something. Clearly the good and evil gods can get along when needed, or they would never have successfully made World 2.0.

Pretty much.

Frankly Loki seems very similar to Xykon, who is Chaotic Evil. And to quote (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html)Xykon, "I like the world. Some of my best evilness took place here. I wouldn't mind ruling it, in fact. I'm certainly not about to destroy it unless I get really, REALLY bored."

Loki has fun screwing with the world and the mortals. He doesn't really want the hastle of remaking the world and having to re-establish everything, re-making new rules for a new world, and having to go through establishing and leveling up his worshippers. He's having fun now, he thinks that they have the Snarl situation under control (or will be able to react fast enough if it gets OUT of control), and he likes THIS world.

Also, Hilgya was most definitely Evil, and don't clerics have to match the alignment of their deity?

[littlebum2002]

Also, Hilgya was most definitely Evil, and don't clerics have to match the alignment of their deity?

They can be one off. So if Loki is Chaotic Evil her clerics can be CE, CN or NE.

[NerdyKris]

Frankly Loki seems very similar to Xykon, who is Chaotic Evil. And to quote (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html)Xykon, "I like the world. Some of my best evilness took place here. I wouldn't mind ruling it, in fact. I'm certainly not about to destroy it unless I get really, REALLY bored."


Whoa.

Wait a minute.

I never even thought of that. Xykon doesn't want the world destroyed. The Order now know that messing with the gates is going to make the gods destroy the world.

What if Roy tells Xykon that trying to do anything with the gate will make the gods destroy the world? It might not be a matter of Redcloak betraying Xykon anymore. It would be Xykon betraying Redcloak.

I'm at a loss to think of how that would result in a good story beyond "And then Xykon saves the day and we have a few hundred strips of the Order trying to kill Xykon with nothing riding on the outcome", though.

[Olinser]

Whoa.

Wait a minute.

I never even thought of that. Xykon doesn't want the world destroyed. The Order now know that messing with the gates is going to make the gods destroy the world.

What if Roy tells Xykon that trying to do anything with the gate will make the gods destroy the world? It might not be a matter of Redcloak betraying Xykon anymore. It would be Xykon betraying Redcloak.

I'm at a loss to think of how that would result in a good story beyond "And then Xykon saves the day and we have a few hundred strips of the Order trying to kill Xykon with nothing riding on the outcome", though.

Xykon wants to rule the world, not destroy it. He most DEFINITELY isn't interested in ceding control of the Gate to the Dark One. Remember that's why Tsukiko was greased by Redcloak.

Xykon would be perfectly willing to throw Redcloak overboard and forget about the Gates if he is confronted with solid information that he CAN'T control the Gates. But right now Roy constantly trying to thwart him has convinced him of the opposite - that he is THIS CLOSE to actually ruling the world.

[Olinser]

They can be one off. So if Loki is Chaotic Evil her clerics can be CE, CN or NE.

Or more to the point of my question, Hilgya could be Chaotic Evil but Loki could be Chaotic Neutral.

[Loreweaver15]

Please do not discuss real world religions as per the Rules of Posting—even historic ones such as the actual Norse myths. You can talk about Loki as a character in the story but not what real people who worshipped the Norse gods believed, much less how that interacted with any other religion at the time.

Sorry, Rich! Didn't mean to start a fracas.

[goodyarn]

I think Loki will try something else after this voting. This is too simple for him just to vote no because "we can handle this we are gods we are not cowards".

I agree.

His speech was weirdly halfhearted. Who let him deliver the "Nay" argument, anyway?

And in Start of Darkness, he allied himself with the Dark One.

So...after Hel makes her move, I think Loki will make his.

[RWB]

Please do not discuss real world religions as per the Rules of Posting—even historic ones such as the actual Norse myths. You can talk about Loki as a character in the story but not what real people who worshipped the Norse gods believed, much less how that interacted with any other religion at the time.

Ah, sorry!

[Olinser]

I agree.

His speech was weirdly halfhearted. Who let him deliver the "Nay" argument, anyway?

And in Start of Darkness, he allied himself with the Dark One.

So...after Hel makes her move, I think Loki will make his.

It didn't seem halfhearted to me. It sounded like a guy that's counted votes and already knew he'd won, so he's just going through the motions. Why wear himself out with a heartfelt speech? He's already convinced the people he needed for his side to win.

Although his last line 'screw you guys we won anyway', did kind of sound like one or two of the last group of gods had told him they'd vote with him and then backed out at the last minute.

[ORione]

It didn't seem halfhearted to me. It sounded like a guy that's counted votes and already knew he'd won, so he's just going through the motions. Why wear himself out with a heartfelt speech? He's already convinced the people he needed for his side to win.

Although his last line 'screw you guys we won anyway', did kind of sound like one or two of the last group of gods had told him they'd vote with him and then backed out at the last minute.

Pretty sure he meant Loki's speech in 998, not his vote in 999.

I don't think it was half-hearted, though. He acknowledged that there were some good points for the other point of view. So did Heimdall. That doesn't mean they aren't commited to their positions.

[Olinser]

Pretty sure he meant Loki's speech in 998, not his vote in 999.

I don't think it was half-hearted, though. He acknowledged that there were some good points for the other point of view. So did Heimdall. That doesn't mean they aren't commited to their positions.

That's exactly what I meant. His speech in 998 felt like he was saying, "I already know my side won but I have to give a dumb speech anyway."

[dps]

Thor is agreeing with Odin, not Loki.

Not sure I see your point. All three of them voted "No" but gave different reasons.

[Bulldog Psion]

Not sure I see your point. All three of them voted "No" but gave different reasons.

I was about to say Balder was the only one without a unique reason to vote as he did -- then I realized that no other god voted simply because two others voted that way, so even his imitation of Odin and Thor was unique. :smallbiggrin:

[ORione]

That's exactly what I meant. His speech in 998 felt like he was saying, "I already know my side won but I have to give a dumb speech anyway."

That implies that he knew that his side would be in the majority before they voted. Given how close it was, I doubt it.

[SlashDash]

But right now Roy constantly trying to thwart him has convinced him of the opposite - that he is THIS CLOSE to actually ruling the world.
Based on This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html)

Xykon doesn't even count Roy as his rival. Redcloak, however, does.

[Windscion]

Not sure I see your point. All three of them voted "No" but gave different reasons.
Oh, sure. But I was refering to the title of the thread. Thor and Odin seem to be pretty tight. Every time Odin is seen in the comic, Thor is there with him. Once Odin voted no Thor had to either vote with Loki or against Odin, and it would be more remarkable, in my estimation, for Thor to disagree with Odin than to agree with Loki.
I hope that clarifies my point.

[Psyren]

I'm pretty sure he's CE, and that adds to the narrative punch of the pre-vote scene - You'd think the Good god would be the one to hold onto hope and give the plucky heroes the chance they need to save the day until the last minute, while the Evil god would be the shortsighted one calling for mass destruction now. Yet the Giant cleverly engineered the scene such that they two could swap roles yet plausibly stay within their respective alignments - leaving the rather odd scenario where the Evil god is rooting for the protagonists and the Good god believes them doomed to failure.

Which, amusingly, illustrates exactly the kind of pigheadedness and contrariwise interactions between the OotS gods that led to the Snarl in the first place. They could quite literally argue over whether the sky is blue (or more accurately, whether it should be.)

[littlebum2002]

It didn't seem halfhearted to me. It sounded like a guy that's counted votes and already knew he'd won, so he's just going through the motions. Why wear himself out with a heartfelt speech? He's already convinced the people he needed for his side to win.

Although his last line 'screw you guys we won anyway', did kind of sound like one or two of the last group of gods had told him they'd vote with him and then backed out at the last minute.



To paraphrase the bodyguard lady from 998:

"Except how would they know they didn't want to blow up the world until they held the vote?"

If the gods could just call up one another and discuss this issue they wouldn't need the moot in the first place.

[hroþila]

Huh? Loki is casting the last vote (in theory), of course he already knows his side won (in theory).

[littlebum2002]

Huh? Loki is casting the last vote (in theory), of course he already knows his side won (in theory).

The poster in question is talking about the speech in #998, not in #999


That's exactly what I meant. His speech in 998 felt like he was saying, "I already know my side won but I have to give a dumb speech anyway."

Unfortunately, this is impossible, because Rich has stated that the entire purpose of the moot is to have the gods discuss their thoughts on this matter, which means there is no way Loki would have known he was going to win beforehand.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Unfortunately, this is impossible, because Rich has stated that the entire purpose of the moot is to have the gods discuss their thoughts on this matter, which means there is no way Loki would have known he was going to win beforehand.

He might not know what the other gods are thinking, but he does know them as individuals. They are essentially his peers, his family, and his main rivals all at the same time, and have since before the dawn of time. Literally. Based on that, I think he can make a pretty good guess.

[littlebum2002]

He might not know what the other gods are thinking, but he does know them as individuals. They are essentially his peers, his family, and his main rivals all at the same time, and have since before the dawn of time. Literally. Based on that, I think he can make a pretty good guess.

I know my relatives pretty well, but if someone took 17 of them and had them vote on something, and that the vote would turn out in favor by only one vote one way or the other, I seriously doubt I'd be able to predict with enough accuracy to determine which way it would go, since I would have to be perfect doing so.

Now if the vote ended up being 12-5 or something then you could do a pretty good job of guessing the way each person is going to vote, and using that to guess the result, but I just don't think it would be that easy with a vote so close. Unless everyone always votes the same way, of course; but if that's the case, why even have a moot if the answer's always the same?

[Doug Lampert]

I know my relatives pretty well, but if someone took 17 of them and had them vote on something, and that the vote would turn out in favor by only one vote one way or the other, I seriously doubt I'd be able to predict with enough accuracy to determine which way it would go, since I would have to be perfect doing so.

Now if the vote ended up being 12-5 or something then you could do a pretty good job of guessing the way each person is going to vote, and using that to guess the result, but I just don't think it would be that easy with a vote so close. Unless everyone always votes the same way, of course; but if that's the case, why even have a moot if the answer's always the same?

Suppose Loki were sure that "No" would win by about 7 votes (your 12-5 guess), but wasn't sure of the exact votes, let's say he figured he MIGHT have as many as three wrong. And in fact he was wrong on as many as three, and they were all Yes where he expected No.

He'd be confident of the outcome, and the vote would still be close.

If Loki is not only certain of the win, but ALSO certain he'll win by more than 9-8, then he could lose a voter and still be certain of the win. Thus it is always possible for Loki to be confident of a win prior to the vote, and for the actual vote to be only 9-8, and for Loki's judgement to have been both correct, and to have allowed for some uncertainty. (But possibly not having allowed for his daughter to suddenly show up with a vote.)

[Psyren]

Are we sure that Hel is his daughter in this continuity?

EDIT: Well, that answers my question :smalltongue:

[Olinser]

I know my relatives pretty well, but if someone took 17 of them and had them vote on something, and that the vote would turn out in favor by only one vote one way or the other, I seriously doubt I'd be able to predict with enough accuracy to determine which way it would go, since I would have to be perfect doing so.

Now if the vote ended up being 12-5 or something then you could do a pretty good job of guessing the way each person is going to vote, and using that to guess the result, but I just don't think it would be that easy with a vote so close. Unless everyone always votes the same way, of course; but if that's the case, why even have a moot if the answer's always the same?

If I had 17 of my relatives together for a vote, AND had a significant amount of prior warning and preparation before said vote (remember Veldrina has been traveling for some time), if it were important enough to motivate me I guarantee I would know the outcome before the vote happened.

Heck, the US Congress does it all the time, with a body SIGNIFICANTLY larger. Most bills don't come up for a vote until the sponsor is 99% certain that it will pass. The actual pass-fail majority doesn't particularly matter as long as they have enough guaranteed pass votes.

Given Loki's in-your-face attitude, he seems to be the main force behind this side. He wasn't just walking up to people and saying, "So, how are you planning to vote?" I guarantee he bribed at least two of them and convinced probably Mani and Baldur that their wishy-washiness about it would be better served on his side.