Ultimate Combat Errata

[Milo v3]

The lastest errata is out, this time for Ultimate Combat, and they've changed Crane Wing again to rectify them previously nerfing it to all hell.

Here is a link to the blog post that discusses the errata and has the errata itself. (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhvx?FAQ-on-Errata)

[Squirrel_Dude]

An FAQ on Errata, heh.

Hey, Kikko armor finally isn't the best thing ever for its price.

[Sayt]

master of Many Stlyes might just be worth taking past level 2, whaddayaknow.

Abundant Ammunition got punted down onto it's butt and kicked in the kidneys. I'm going to lobby for my group to ignore that one, probably.

Crane Style has, I think, reached a comfortable middle ground: It doesn't auto-nope unless you total defense, but a +6/8 (depending on standard or full, assuming 3 ranks in acrobatics) dodge to everyone in melee when you defensive fight for only a -1 to hit seems....pretty dang good.

[Extra Anchovies]

In the Improved Snap Shot feat, in the Benefit entry, change “10 feet” to “5 feet”.

NO

Also I don't get why they let the Titan Mauler use bigger weapons - but at an extra -4.

Really, the only thing I'm seeing in this errata that's actually good is the Dragon Style fix, and maybe the Crane Wing stuff. Everything else was either necessary clarifications, pointless nerfs, or half-assed fixes.

[killem2]

Litany of Righteousness allows for a will save. So they save, no double damage? Jesus paizo.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Damn, the scorpion whip is cheesy again. I hate that thing. At least rapid reload works with advanced firearms RAW, though.

[Kurald Galain]

Huh. They made a random update to the myrmidarch and completely missed the major flaw of the archetype (e.g. that it doesn't work with spell combat, only lets you attach a spell to a ranged attack if the spell was already ranged, and gets melee armor training from the fighter whereas it's a ranged archetype).

[grarrrg]

Pistolero's gotta pay for the bonus damage the hard way now:
"in the Up Close and Deadly deed...add the following:
The cost of using this deed cannot be reduced with the Signature Deed feat, the true grit class feature, or any similar effect."

Signature Deed is now only "once per round". So Pistolero's are out of luck multiple ways.

Rogue's get access to Ninja Master Tricks now.

Speaking of Rogues, Sap Adept got nerfed. The bonus damage is now "equal to" the number of Sneak Dice, instead of "twice" the number of Sneak dice.


master of Many Stlyes might just be worth taking past level 2, whaddayaknow.

It's worth taking past 2nd level now, because the first 2 levels got a downgrade.
Before you could get a Style feat, OR a Style-Path feat with any Bonus (e.g. Pummeling Style at 1st, Pummeling Charge at 2nd).
(note: "Style feats" are ONLY those that have "Style" in the name)
Now you can ONLY get Style feats at 1st and 2nd level.
As for the "Wildcard" slots, you must meet the Prerequisites of any style-path feat you want to use.

Master of Many Styles just got Nerf-Punched.


Also I don't get why they let the Titan Mauler use bigger weapons - but at an extra -4.

Because everyone always kind of assumed they would be able to use bigger 2-handed weapons when they actually couldn't.


Damn, the scorpion whip is cheesy again. I hate that thing.

Someone hasn't been paying attention to the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9t9r)
Scorpion Whips are junk.
You must be Proficient with BOTH Scorpion AND regular Whip. And you have to choose which "mode" it is in. You don't get all the benefits of both. So in "whip" mode you still don't threaten spaces, still provoke an AoO when making attacks, and you lose the "Light" and "Performance" properties of Scorpion.
Meaning 98% of the time, you'll be better off going with Regular Whip + Whip Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/whip-mastery-combat) instead of dealing with the nonsense that is the Scorpion Whip.


At least rapid reload works with advanced firearms RAW, though.

A different FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1g1#v5748eaic9t6h).
Rapid has officially worked with Advanced Firearms since April.

[Kurald Galain]

Meaning 98% of the time, you'll be better off going with Regular Whip + Whip Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/whip-mastery-combat) instead of dealing with the nonsense that is the Scorpion Whip.
Hm, I would rather get scorpion whip proficiency somehow than spend two lacklustre feats on the ability to deal normal damage with a whip.

[Secret Wizard]

Huh. They made a random update to the myrmidarch and completely missed the major flaw of the archetype (e.g. that it doesn't work with spell combat, only lets you attach a spell to a ranged attack if the spell was already ranged, and gets melee armor training from the fighter whereas it's a ranged archetype).

You are missing the fact it's not a ranged archetype. It's a switch-hitter. You Spell Combat and Spellstrike at melee range, or use Ranged Spellstrike with a bow at longer range. Plus you get Armor Training so the extra DEX your character needs to use bows and ranged feats doesn't get blocked by heavy armor.


Master of Many Styles just got Nerf-Punched.

Bonus to attack for each style you have on is a non-trivial boost in power. There will be some pretty dang good builds out there. Hopefully, the book comes with UnMonk adaptation guidelines like in Dirty Tactics Toolbox.

[Extra Anchovies]

Bonus to attack for each style you have on is a non-trivial boost in power. There will be some pretty dang good builds out there. Hopefully, the book comes with UnMonk adaptation guidelines like in Dirty Tactics Toolbox.

Indeed. It would be nice to see the archetype worth taking as something other than a cheese-enabling dip.

[Kurald Galain]

You are missing the fact it's not a ranged archetype. It's a switch-hitter.
Yes, but why would you need the archetype for that? The baseline Magus is already a switch hitter, and frankly casting Scorching Ray in spell combat is better than attaching Scorching Ray to an arrow or crossbow bolt.


Plus you get Armor Training so the extra DEX your character needs to use bows and ranged feats doesn't get blocked by heavy armor.
Ok, that does make sense.

[Slider Eclipse]

Overall its not a bad batch of Errata from a quick reading of it. My only real Complaint is that they Made Feral Combat Training completely worthless and by extension killed the only way to make White Haired Witch even half way decent. (Dislike the Errata to Final Embrace for this reason as well, was spending half your feats to buff one otherwise useless ability really a bad thing?)

[Nyaa]

My only real Complaint is that they Made Feral Combat Training completely worthless

Was it ever used by anyone but Meditant Psywars to flurry with claws of the beast?

[Squirrel_Dude]

Was it ever used by anyone but Meditant Psywars to flurry with claws of the beast?Sacred Fist Warpriests were also pretty big fans.

[Milo v3]

Sacred Fist Warpriests were also pretty big fans.

Wait, sacred fists are still being played after the ACG errata?

[Squirrel_Dude]

Wait, sacred fists are still being played after the ACG errata?It's still a 3/4 BAB with heavy armor and spells, so there are probably still some uses for it.

I wouldn't play it because I hate the Warpriest, but I'm sure there is an audience for it.

[Milo v3]

It's still a 3/4 BAB with heavy armor and spells, so there are probably still some uses for it.
No it isn't. It's a 3/4 BAB with spells and a flurry of blows that's worse than Core Monk now.

[Slider Eclipse]

Was it ever used by anyone but Meditant Psywars to flurry with claws of the beast?

there were a few other very nice uses for it.

For Example it was the ONLY way to make the White Haired Witch's White Hair Feature actually worth losing hexes. (WHW 4/Unchained Monk 5/Fighter 1/Eldrich Knight 10 made the Hair downright scary after Final Embrace line + Feral Combat Training + Monastic Legacy)

Similarly Bloody Knuckled Rowdy 11/Dragon Disciple 9 became a very nice looking build after using it to pump up your claws. both of these are now more or less dead. As are really any Monk builds that wanted to use Natural Attacks. Why would you Bite for 1d6 when you can just punch someone in the face for 2d6 or More after all?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

You can use scorpion whips the way everyone want them to work: as a whip but deals lethal damage and can attack creatures with armor.

[Psyren]

Quite a few buffs:

Ghost Rager was buffed, you no longer need Superstition.
Titan Mauler can actually use larger 2H weapons now.
Sensei was buffed, Mystic Wisdom comes online earlier.
Confounding Blades was buffed (increased duration)
Crane Wing and Riposte were both buffed (from the nerfed versions.)
Prone Shooter was buffed further since the previous FAQ.


Hopefully, the book comes with UnMonk adaptation guidelines like in Dirty Tactics Toolbox.

Ooh, what's this now?


Wait, sacred fists are still being played after the ACG errata?

Even with the nerf to their flurry, they still beat the pants off any monk in existence, so yes :smalltongue:

[Milo v3]

Even with the nerf to their flurry, they still beat the pants off any monk in existence, so yes :smalltongue:
Spells are pretty useful, but still, sacred fist used to be cooler. So I'm disappointed to a degree, but this is not the thread for ACG errata.

My titan mauler player will love the change to the archetype. Means his 3 ft. character'll be able to wield a 12 ft. long nodachi without penalty eventually.

[Psyren]

Spells are pretty useful, but still, sacred fist used to be cooler. So I'm disappointed to a degree, but this is not the thread for ACG errata.

Think of it this way - even with no buffs at all, their chassis is no worse off than any other 3/4 BAB class with TWF, e.g. a Rogue or Ninja, except they effectively get all the TWF feats for free, and then they can buff and heal themselves as a swift-action on top of that.



My titan mauler player will love the change to the archetype. Means his 3 ft. character'll be able to wield a 12 ft. long nodachi without penalty eventually.

Note that you don't actually get reach from that even though it's such a long weapon. If it helps, reach is better thought of as the range you can actually use such a weapon effectively. You can always pick up Lunge though, or rely on Titanic Rage's size boost.

[Milo v3]

Note that you don't actually get reach from that even though it's such a long weapon. If it helps, reach is better thought of as the range you can actually use such a weapon effectively. You can always pick up Lunge though, or rely on Titanic Rage's size boost.

I know, I even made a monkey grip fix back in 3.5e days that did give reach, the player just loves the ridiculousness of using giant weapons on a tiny character.

[Vhaidara]

Note that you don't actually get reach from that even though it's such a long weapon.

Always reminds me of the titan bloodline pixie trick. Needs to be in your square to hit you with a hammer bigger than your square..

Personally very happy to hear that moms is gone as such a crazy strong 2 level dip.

[Captain Morgan]

Feral Combat Training, Maneuver Master dips, and MoMS Dips have all been smashed pretty hard. Glancing through, a bunch of other things seem to have gotten nerfs and increased prerequisites.

I'm kinda upset about the amount of this that's been going down lately. The obscure tricks to boost character effectiveness has always struck me as a feature, not a bug. If I wanted to play a something with less concrete choices I could just play 5e. :(

It also seems to be coming down harder and harder on martials.

[Psyren]

Feral Combat Training, Maneuver Master dips, and MoMS Dips have all been smashed pretty hard. Glancing through, a bunch of other things seem to have gotten nerfs and increased prerequisites.

I'm not seeing how FCT and Maneuver Master were "smashed." FCT still works with feats, which is 90% of what we want it for anyway, and the only change to Maneuver Master is that you can't wear armor while flurrying, which is how that's supposed to work.

MoMS I do agree on.


I'm kinda upset about the amount of this that's been going down lately. The obscure tricks to boost character effectiveness has always struck me as a feature, not a bug. If I wanted to play a something with less concrete choices I could just play 5e. :(

Or houserules - the Fun Police won't throw you in the hoosegow for using them :smalltongue:

[Captain Morgan]

I'm not seeing how FCT and Maneuver Master were "smashed." FCT still works with feats, which is 90% of what we want it for anyway, and the only change to Maneuver Master is that you can't wear armor while flurrying, which is how that's supposed to work.

MoMS I do agree on.



Or houserules - the Fun Police won't throw you in the hoosegow for using them :smalltongue:

House ruling isn't always an option, sadly.

Maneuver Master being able to snag an extra maneuver in armor was probably never intended, but being able to perform multiple dirty tricks, grapples, or what have you in a round was always a really sweet feature for some fighter and brawler builds. I'm going to miss it.

Feral Combat Training also got hit on some other fronts. Namely, Pummeling Style was errata'ed to not be compatible with it. I find this frustrating because while FCT could lead to some really insane damage, the feat and class features you had to invest to do so were really intense. If someone is going to dedicate to the concept that much, I say let them.

[Psyren]

House ruling isn't always an option, sadly.

Maneuver Master being able to snag an extra maneuver in armor was probably never intended, but being able to perform multiple dirty tricks, grapples, or what have you in a round was always a really sweet feature for some fighter and brawler builds. I'm going to miss it.

You can still do that - Quick Dirty Trick, Rapid Grappler etc - without dipping Monk.



Feral Combat Training also got hit on some other fronts. Namely, Pummeling Style was errata'ed to not be compatible with it. I find this frustrating because while FCT could lead to some really insane damage, the feat and class features you had to invest to do so were really intense. If someone is going to dedicate to the concept that much, I say let them.

Pummeling Style was meant as incentive to use unarmed strike specifically. It wasn't intended for druids and synthesists to easily bite something in two (though to be honest, they can still do that.)

[Ssalarn]

It's worth taking past 2nd level now, because the first 2 levels got a downgrade.
Before you could get a Style feat, OR a Style-Path feat with any Bonus (e.g. Pummeling Style at 1st, Pummeling Charge at 2nd).
(note: "Style feats" are ONLY those that have "Style" in the name)
Now you can ONLY get Style feats at 1st and 2nd level.
As for the "Wildcard" slots, you must meet the Prerequisites of any style-path feat you want to use.

Master of Many Styles just got Nerf-Punched.


I consider it a very necessary change. I'd literally never seen anyone take MoMS past 2nd level, and people being able to dip for advanced feats that were supposed to be gated to 5th level or higher was what made Crane Wing such a problem in PFS and got it nerfed in the first place. It's now a balanced 1-20 archetype that is actually very solid and functional, and which isn't going to prove a stumbling block for future style feat design. That boost to attack it gets is also a nice bump.

A few of my other favorites, like the Sensei, got straight buffs, Crane Wing got a minor boost back up to something that actually might be worth taking, scorpion whip now works exactly how it should work.... On the whole I think that martials other than the Gunslinger got more buffs than nerfs.

The Gunslinger nerfs are pretty obviously aimed at PFS-related issues, though I think they're definitely trying to "fix" the Gunslinger by addressing some of the wrong issues. The double-barrel change was, in my opinion, a good thing, since the Gunslinger's ability to be the most consistent damage dealer really shouldn't be accompanied by also being the best. The nerfs to remove some of the misfire mitigation were pointless, as killing some options while leaving others in place doesn't do anything but narrow the number of builds that will see play. Dwarven Gunslingers can still completely mitigate misfire chances, and there are still magic items that mitigate it as well, so probably a pointless nerf.

[Shackel]

Did Feral Combat Training really need to get stomped into the dirt like that?

[Ssalarn]

Did Feral Combat Training really need to get stomped into the dirt like that?

I think it's a bit of an over-reaction after the results of their last FAQ on FCT, where they said that things like the monk's unarmed damage increases applied to the natural attack.

[Captain Morgan]

You can still do that - Quick Dirty Trick, Rapid Grappler etc - without dipping Monk.

Indeed, but they are gated behind feats buried deep in the feat trees. This has been a part of Pathfinder I've never cared for-- how many feats you need to invest to get good at options other than full attacking every round.

And it seems like Paizo has started to realize that's a problem too, since they started putting out feats like this:

Dirty Fighting (Combat)
You can take advantage of a distracted foe.
Benefit: When you attempt a combat maneuver check against a foe you are flanking, you can forgo the +2 bonus on your attack roll for flanking to instead have the combat maneuver not provoke an attack of opportunity. If you have a feat or ability that allows you to attempt the combat maneuver without provoking an attack of opportunity, you can instead increase the bonus on your attack roll for flanking to +4 for the combat maneuver check.

Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites

So the decision to make this harder feels perplexing to me.


Pummeling Style was meant as incentive to use unarmed strike specifically. It wasn't intended for druids and synthesists to easily bite something in two (though to be honest, they can still do that.)

Yeah, Druids, Synthesists, and Barbarians still have their classic pounce options, which can be done with relatively low investment. To put this in perspective, to use natural attacks pummeling style to full effect you wanted:

-- Class features to gain natural attacks, which probably means 2 levels in Barbarian, or at least 1 level in Bloodrager.
--4 levels in Human Fighter to get Martial Versatility, assuming you have more than just 1 natural weapon type.
-- Weapon Focus
--Feral Combat Training
--Pummeling Style
-- A 2 dip into MoMS to snag pummeling charge and combine Dragon Ferocity, or at least BAB +12
--Multiattack

Those are a lot of hoops to jump through. The damage of such a build is crazy good, because you can throw as many natural attacks as possible onto a TWF unarmed strike routine, all at STR 1.5, but damn if you didn't need to invest for it.

And it didn't strike me as an abuse of Pummeling Style as it was originally written, partially because of the cost to do so but largely because natural weapons come with the same crit range as unarmed strike. The big problem with Pummeling Style initially was people using a cestus or kukri and the "if one crits, they all crit" clause. Though it looks to me like they removed the critical thing from Pummeling Style too.

Anyway, I've sort of drifted off topic. My problem was that barring a few notable exceptions like the Monktopus, it's really hard to get Feral Combat Training to apply to more than 1, maybe 2 attacks in a round, so granting them the full power of an Unarmed Strike from stuff like Brawling Armor seems fine by me.

The only thing I've seen which can do FCT with Martial Versatility easily is a War Priest with a Barbarian dip, and frankly the Warpriest needs a niche.

[Extra Anchovies]

Dirty Fighting (Combat)

I'm not finding that feat anywhere. Got a source?

[PsyBomb]

Anyone have a summary of the changes? Can't open PDFs at the moment.

[Molosse]

I'm not finding that feat anywhere. Got a source?

Dirty Tactics Toolbox, your go-to source of all sneaky and underhanded trickery, available as a PDF on the 2nd of the coming month.

All in all from the summaries looks damn good, even a feat which straight up adds +1D6 to your Sneak Attack.

[Ssalarn]

Anyone have a summary of the changes? Can't open PDFs at the moment.

Misfire mitigation abilities were removed from Gunslinger archetypes, Master of Many Styles is now good for playing single-classed but markedly less useful for quick dips, Crane Wing got boosted back up slightly to now provide a +4 bonus to AC that lasts until an attack misses you by 4 or less, double-barreled weapons now only provide the "both barrels at once" option on attack actions (primarily a nerf, but maybe useful with Vital Strike?), Feral Combat Training now only helps you use natural attacks with feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prereq, Titan Maulers can wield larger sized weapons but at an even steeper penalty, archaeologist bards confirmed to not gain additional rounds of archaeologist's luck as they level....

I think that's the bulk of the big stuff.

Oh, Abundant Ammunition got nerfed.

[Psyren]

Indeed, but they are gated behind feats buried deep in the feat trees. This has been a part of Pathfinder I've never cared for-- how many feats you need to invest to get good at options other than full attacking every round.

And it seems like Paizo has started to realize that's a problem too, since they started putting out feats like this:

Dirty Fighting (Combat)
You can take advantage of a distracted foe.
Benefit: When you attempt a combat maneuver check against a foe you are flanking, you can forgo the +2 bonus on your attack roll for flanking to instead have the combat maneuver not provoke an attack of opportunity. If you have a feat or ability that allows you to attempt the combat maneuver without provoking an attack of opportunity, you can instead increase the bonus on your attack roll for flanking to +4 for the combat maneuver check.

Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites

So the decision to make this harder feels perplexing to me.

Quick Dirty Trick is right there in Ultimate Combat, so I don't see how it could be considered "buried."
And they did make it easier via the Stamina system from Unchained, so the tools are there.

(Where's the feat you quoted from? I can't find it anywhere.)


Yeah, Druids, Synthesists, and Barbarians still have their classic pounce options, which can be done with relatively low investment. To put this in perspective, to use natural attacks pummeling style to full effect you wanted:

-- Class features to gain natural attacks, which probably means 2 levels in Barbarian, or at least 1 level in Bloodrager.
--4 levels in Human Fighter to get Martial Versatility, assuming you have more than just 1 natural weapon type.
-- Weapon Focus
--Feral Combat Training
--Pummeling Style
-- A 2 dip into MoMS to snag pummeling charge and combine Dragon Ferocity, or at least BAB +12
--Multiattack

Those are a lot of hoops to jump through. The damage of such a build is crazy good, because you can throw as many natural attacks as possible onto a TWF unarmed strike routine, all at STR 1.5, but damn if you didn't need to invest for it.

And it didn't strike me as an abuse of Pummeling Style as it was originally written, partially because of the cost to do so but largely because natural weapons come with the same crit range as unarmed strike. The big problem with Pummeling Style initially was people using a cestus or kukri and the "if one crits, they all crit" clause. Though it looks to me like they removed the critical thing from Pummeling Style too.

Anyway, I've sort of drifted off topic. My problem was that barring a few notable exceptions like the Monktopus, it's really hard to get Feral Combat Training to apply to more than 1, maybe 2 attacks in a round, so granting them the full power of an Unarmed Strike from stuff like Brawling Armor seems fine by me.

The only thing I've seen which can do FCT with Martial Versatility easily is a War Priest with a Barbarian dip, and frankly the Warpriest needs a niche.

That depends how you define "full effect." Any random half-orc monk could grab Toothy and do a Pummeling Bite Charge that automatically bypassed bludgeoning, slashing and piercing DR before even accounting for ki strike, and that didn't take any hoops at all.

[Molosse]

Quick Dirty Trick is right there in Ultimate Combat, so I don't see how it could be considered "buried."
And they did make it easier via the Stamina system from Unchained, so the tools are there.

(Where's the feat you quoted from? I can't find it anywhere.).

Again, Dirty Tactics Toolbox, PDF 2nd of next month.

[Psyren]

Again, Dirty Tactics Toolbox, PDF 2nd of next month.

Ah, don't have that yet.

I did hear someone say there was stuff for the Unchained Monk in there?

[Captain Morgan]

Quick Dirty Trick is right there in Ultimate Combat, so I don't see how it could be considered "buried."

"Gated" might be a better term. The entire dirty trick line calls for 5 feats. (And INT 13 barring some options that bypass it.) That's a big investment, for something which gets less and less effective as you level up and monsters get bigger and their CMDs get bigger even faster. Dirty trick specifically is one of the better options, too. Tripping has a similar feat tree, but that becomes less relevant as humanoids become less common, and flight pops up more often. Disarm and Sunder have smaller feat trees but will flat out suck against anything built on natural weapons.


And they did make it easier via the Stamina system from Unchained, so the tools are there.

Is Stamina relevant in PFS though? I've also found that in home games many DMs don't always have the intricate knowledge of the rules to realize why fixes like Stamina are a good thing. And occasionally they just flat out limit to stuff closer to the core rulebook. (Which is frustrating. If you don't want to embrace the complexity and the splat, why not just play 5e?)




That depends how you define "full effect." Any random half-orc monk could grab Toothy and do a Pummeling Bite Charge that automatically bypassed bludgeoning, slashing and piercing DR before even accounting for ki strike, and that didn't take any hoops at all.

You just sank 2 feats into doing that though, when Pummeling Charge already lets the Monk do a dandy job of bypassing DR. You also aren't picking up any extra attacks off that, just getting the option to bite instead of punch. (Plus the Ki strike, or just using a weapon when you aren't Pummeling...) I'm hesitant to use the word "trap" to describe that option, but it springs to mind. There might be a better option out there involving a Brawler who doesn't focus on flurry, perhaps?

Or maybe the new MoMS could get some mileage! Although I'm a little skeptical of how well that sucker will work without using the Unchained Monk (which still seems to be an illegal combo.)

[Psyren]

"Gated" might be a better term. The entire dirty trick line calls for 5 feats. (And INT 13 barring some options that bypass it.) That's a big investment, for something which gets less and less effective as you level up and monsters get bigger and their CMDs get bigger even faster. Dirty trick specifically is one of the better options, too. Tripping has a similar feat tree, but that becomes less relevant as humanoids become less common, and flight pops up more often. Disarm and Sunder have smaller feat trees but will flat out suck against anything built on natural weapons.

I agree with you that tripping fliers (at least winged ones) should still be a thing.

As for Dirty Trick, your own CMB should be going up too though - BAB, WBL, stat increases etc. It's easy to keep pace with only moderate optimization. To expect it to just match your foes automatically without any investment on your part is an unrealistic expectation, and it's a strong enough option to be worth investing in (blind, dazed and nauseated are pretty powerful debuffs at all levels.)



Is Stamina relevant in PFS though? I've also found that in home games many DMs don't always have the intricate knowledge of the rules to realize why fixes like Stamina are a good thing. And occasionally they just flat out limit to stuff closer to the core rulebook. (Which is frustrating. If you don't want to embrace the complexity and the splat, why not just play 5e?)

This is a GM problem though, not a system problem. I would agree with you that such a GM is better off in 5e, but there's not much anyone else (including the designers) can do about that person.



You just sank 2 feats into doing that though, when Pummeling Charge already lets the Monk do a dandy job of bypassing DR. You also aren't picking up any extra attacks off that, just getting the option to bite instead of punch. (Plus the Ki strike, or just using a weapon when you aren't Pummeling...) I'm hesitant to use the word "trap" to describe that option, but it springs to mind. There might be a better option out there involving a Brawler who doesn't focus on flurry, perhaps?

But that provision about not getting more attacks would have applied to your hoop-jumping-weapon-focus-barbarian-martial-fighter would have no additional attacks either, so what's the issue? If the point of flurrying with natural attacks wasn't to use one that bypasses all three forms of physical DR, what then was it for?

[Captain Morgan]

I agree with you that tripping fliers (at least winged ones) should still be a thing.

As for Dirty Trick, your own CMB should be going up too though - BAB, WBL, stat increases etc. It's easy to keep pace with only moderate optimization. To expect it to just match your foes automatically without any investment on your part is an unrealistic expectation, and it's a strong enough option to be worth investing in (blind, dazed and nauseated are pretty powerful debuffs at all levels.)

Granted, but A) Dirty Trick is the exception, not the rule, and B) doing this and still having room for being good at any other maneuvers is tricky for but the most dedicated of builds.

Were I to screw with the system from the ground up, I would probably make feat trees consolidated into a single feat which scales with level, I think. You still invest resources, but you can also be a Paladin that trips people AND still has room for Pally feats.

Also, I would reduce the influence size has on CMD. Using something like the Lore Warden to jack your numbers up to the point where you can maneuver a dragon with any chance of success results in you auto-succeeding on a similar leveled humanoid. Which is realistic (if not mechanically desirable) for something like bull rush perhaps, but not so much for poking an eye with dirty trick.

Pathfinder CMD: where an ogre can pluck the spell component pouch off a pixie with 95% success rate but the Pixie can't poke the Ogre in the eye.


This is a GM problem though, not a system problem. I would agree with you that such a GM is better off in 5e, but there's not much anyone else (including the designers) can do about that person.

When it comes to using optional content? Sure, there are things the designers could do. Not nerfing options for cool martial things, for example. And considering how much the Paizo brand relies on PFS to generate sales, and for how many PFS is their only shot at playing on a regular basis, it's worth talking about what the game looks like without stuff like Stamina.

It's also worth bringing up things like Stamina too, as your are doing! :) Because not only does that give home games a solution, but it gives the devs some feedback on things they should introduce into the mainstream.


But that provision about not getting more attacks would have applied to your hoop-jumping-weapon-focus-barbarian-martial-fighter would have no additional attacks either, so what's the issue? If the point of flurrying with natural attacks wasn't to use one that bypasses all three forms of physical DR, what then was it for?

Oh! I don't think I was clear about this, sorry. You don't use flurry for natural attacks. You use natural attacks in conjunction with iteratives, probably using the TWF line and unarmed strikes. Let me post a sample build.

Assumptions: Dragon Ferocity does things. Specifically, it makes your unarmed strikes count at a 3:1 scale for power attack. Combined with Pummeling style, it also gives you 2x STR on every damage roll in the sequence. Most importantly, it all gets transferred to Natural Weapons via Feral Combat Training.

Feats:

1)Pummeling Style
2)Pummeling Charge
3) Dragon Style
4) Dragon Ferocity
5) Power Attack
6) Weapon Focus (Claws)
7) Feral Combat Training (Claws)
8) Multiattack
9)Martial Versatility (Feral Combat Training)

10) TWF, etc.

Beyond that, it's all about getting as many boosts to STR as possible, because every point to your STR gets added 4 TIMES to your damage.

There is a lot of room for variation here, which I think largely comes down to when you want this to go online and race. Ironically, humans and fighters both suck at getting natural attacks but they are extremely effective choices for the concept because they gain so many feats, and Martial Versatility makes it so that the more Natural Attacks you gain, the more they factor into the crazy charge.

So you're at least going to dip into Mutation Warrior. One level nets you a feat. You need a lot of feats. It also nets you a mutagen. 4 levels nets you access to Martial Versatility. 5 nets you Weapons Training and hopefully Gloves of Dueling to boot. 7 gets you a Discovery. If you don't have Claws and Bite yet, Feral Mutagen is the obvious choice. Otherwise Wings let's you Pummeling Charge everything forever. Eventually you're going to get Greater and Grand Mutagen for moar strength. (NOTE: If Gloves of Dueling are off the table, Savage Warrior stacks with Mutation Warrior and provides some solid boons to CMB and charging. You like charging.)

Master of Many Styles 2 is probably going to be necessary to make this come to life early, as you can't get Flurry and want to skip pre-reqs for Pummeling Charge. Costs you a point of BAB, but you get so many extra attacks who cares if you get iteratives slower? It also means you get +3 to your saves and evasion, and odds are you're going to pump your DEX a bit so your reflex save is on point.

Finally, you want some RAAAAAGE. I think I favor the Bloodrager over the Barbarian for this. Abyssal Bloodrager gets claws at 1, and Enlarge Person as a free action at 4. That means +2 Strength AND reach. You can also trade in your level 4 or 8 power for 2 rage powers via Primalist. You also can get bonus feats, including Power Attack that ease the burden a bit. I like Fiend Totem for a gore attack, and Reckless for additional accuracy myself. Blood Conduit also you a free maneuver feat and the ability to channel spells through your fists as a free action. That's not necessary but it's nice.

Race: Human gets you access to Martial Versatility, but you can cheat that with Half-Orcs and Aasimar, both who have paths for natural weapons in race. Half-Orc is probably the best bet for early Bite Access.

Gear: Anything which boosts STR. Amulet of Mighty Fists (Keen being a great pick here because of Pummeling Style's Crit Combos. Add on Furious and Courageous if you're using Rage). Brawling Armor. Gloves of the Duelist.

Level Progression: Heavily depends, but this thing will be a solid martial way before it goes online. If you start Fighter or Barbarian you can always 2 Hand at level 1 and work your way up with the natural weapons. Once you get Dragon Style/Ferocity, Pummeling Style/Charge, and Power Attack, every punch you throw is getting crazy high damage. Every additional Natural Attack you add to that is basically gravy.

The math:

Let's go with Level 11 here. Half Orc, Mutation Warrior 5, MoMS 2, Bloodrager Abyssal 4. Forgive me if my WBL calculations suck, but I don't use that in my home games. Let's assume 20 strength after racial adjustments.

Belt of Giant Strength +4, Brawling Armor (+2), Gloves of Dueling (+2), Amulet of Mighty Fists (Ferocious +2), BAB +10, Enlarge Person (+2 STR, -1 Attack Rolls), Mutagen (+4 STR), Bloodrage (+4 STR), Weapons Training +1, Weapons Focus (+1 but only to claws)

34 STR = 12 STR Mod

28 to hit, 25 after Power Attack

Damage: 28+ 12 (Dragon Ferocity)+ +9 (Power Attack)

Full Attack:

Punch/Punch/Claw/Claw/Bite
+25/+20/+24/+24/+23
1d8+49/1d8+49/2d6+49/2d6+49/1d6+49

If every hit lands, you are doing 271.5 damage on average. You're probably charging when you do this, so add +2 to hit. And it's one shot to bypass DR, and it all crits if one crits.

It's hitting for 271.5 for it's average damage, that's with only punches and three natural attacks. You can tack on more by using TWF, GTWF, or adding more natural attacks through things like the Fiend Totem Rage power.

It's disgustingly min-maxed, but you could trade out some of the feats here and there and still get a sick damage dealer with natural weapons and pounce. Horn of the Criosphinx could sub for Dragon Style, for example.

And I'm sure there are less ridiculous things you could do with it too.

[Molosse]

Ah, don't have that yet.

I did hear someone say there was stuff for the Unchained Monk in there?

Not so much particularly for the UnMonk, but from what I can tell the Monk Archetype within the book includes a little memo instructing the reader how to have the thing apply to a UnMonk.