[3.5] I...Live...Again!

[Thurbane]

http://i58.tinypic.com/2zgulba.jpg
So...what ways are there to make enemies (Pcs or NPCs, either/or, but mostly NPCs for my uses) pop back from the dead as undead abominations after being slain?

I know there a couple of ways to quick Rez (Death Delver capstone, there's also a magic item I can't quite remember); also, ways for the already undead to come back (Lich, Ghost etc.). Some (most?) undead specify in their fluff that they are the returned spirits of evil individuals.

But how about a living foe who pops back up as an undead after being defeated?

There's the Deadborn Vulture (MM4); I thought there was a spell (either Spell Compendium, or HoH, but I can't seem to find it).

Any thoughts or ideas on how to achieve this?

Cheers - T

[WhamBamSam]

Dracoliches pop back up pretty quickly (probably, it's not altogether clear what the action is to possess a corpse, so I assume it's a standard) so long as they have spare bodies to hop into and don't lose too much from proto-dracolichdom (ie, they're wholly martial use psionics or some manner of other subsystem that isn't spellcasting).

You could use Crafted Contingent Animate Dread Warrior or have the evil wizard pop in and cast it as a full-round with Uncanny Forethought or something on a minion you just killed, but otherwise I don't know of a spell that'll do what you're looking for off the top of my head.

[Extra Anchovies]

Maybe a contingent crafted Create Undead/Create Greater Undead?

[TheifofZ]

Contingency: Animate Dead/Create Undead/ Greater Create Undead will do you fine in a pinch, but that either eats a feat or spell slots.
You can also use Seed of Undeath to auto-zombie the targets when they drop.

Other options include Fell Animate (which is a crappy feat unless you're using Codzilla to Divine Metamagic the heck out of it) or the various types of energy draining undead.

Of course, this disregards the fact that if you're looking for cheap, quick and dirty minions, Animate Dead is a single standard action to cast. (Unless I misremember that. And I shouldn't have.)
Which in turn disregards the fact that some prep-work can steroid the heck out of each minion's base stats, so the best undead armies are the ones that are created -after- battle.

Edit: I forgot fun cheese!
If you're playing a real minion master type, you should have some higher level minions.
Spell Stitch them with your favourite animation spell and a standing order to animate anything that dies near them, and voila. Instant minions.

Further Edit: There's a whole slew of Save or Die that have animation functions, though some of them require prep work (such as the Mother Cyst feat and spells). The rest are still Save or Die.

[NevinPL]

Just once (dead -> undead), or perpetual (dead -> undead -> destroyed -> undead -> destroyed -> undead) ?

[Thurbane]

Just once (dead -> undead), or perpetual (dead -> undead -> destroyed -> undead -> destroyed -> undead) ?

Either one is good. :smallbiggrin:

[NevinPL]

Roleplaying-ly speaking, you can make a bargain with some (Cornholio the Cultist voice) dark gods (/). So if you're a BBEG, so they might want someone like you.
Other than that:

good old ghost you've mentioned, is more or less perpetual, so if you die, and your unfulfilled desire of world domination was strong enough, you could come back as one,
Death Pact with a bit of reflavoring into Undeath Pact (although I think there's something like that already, somewhere),
I also have some vague recollection of an "fleshy" undead monster, that can't "die" until something, something.

Sorry for vagueness, didn't yet have my morning coffee ;)


Edit:

Blood of Orcus, and Flesh of Orcus from Ghostwalk are ideal for the "famous last words" scene, especially if the heroes are unaware of their significance.
Bodak Birth from BoVD

[TheifofZ]

I also have some vague recollection of an "fleshy" undead monster, that can't "die" until something, something.



... Curst, Lich, Draco Lich, Vampire... Erm.
There's more, too. But I'm not going to go on the epic journey to find everything that could apply.
Also I'm not bringing up Demi-Lich, because those are epic, not fleshy, and can't die period, if they're played well. (Epic level wizards are BS. Always.)

Curst are the undead that can't die until the curse on them is removed. ... So 'Remove Curse' is an instagib.
Lich and Draco Lich can't die until the phylactery is destroyed, and if you're playing them smartly, it's difficult to find and close to impossible to destroy.
And Vampires won't die if they can get to their intact coffin to rest and recover, so... Although they're limited to 2 miles, and you can pop the casket to do for the vampire permanently.

[NevinPL]

...Curst...
Curst it is, and thanks to that, now I've remembered that spell - Undeath after death (MoF), just what the OP ordered.
Thank you.


...Lich, Draco Lich, Vampire...
If it were that obvious, I would remember.

[noob]

one other way is to use the variant rule "undead birth from death of living" of libris mortis.

[TheifofZ]

I listed Curst first because I did know that was exactly what you meant.

I listed the rest for the sake of pseudo-completeness. Not that I was going to type out -every- undead that vaguely met the description, though.
Because there are a lot out there.

You're welcome for the help, though.

Edit: and now I'm trying to remember which spell it was that let you reanimate a destroyed undead. Because I know it was out there somewhere.

[Thurbane]

Great responses everyone.

Undead After Death is perfect!

Also, another undead that just keeps coming back is the Sepuchral Thief - kind of like Lich but for Rogues instead of casters...

[TheifofZ]

There's a Desert Lich, a Thief Lich, a Warrior Lich, Dragon Lich, Wizard Lich, Worm Lich, Lich Lich, God Lich, and even a Good Lich.
And then we get into the non-lich types of undead.

Why yes, I do spend a lot of time browsing through the books for rules about, and various types of, undead. Why do you ask?

[NevinPL]

Edit: and now I'm trying to remember which spell it was that let you reanimate a destroyed undead. Because I know it was out there somewhere.
Revive Undead (LM\SPC) ?

[Calimehter]

Did the 2e revenant not make it into 3.x?? My cursory google search seemed to indicate that it did not, and I figure it would have come up by now in the thread if it had.

Which would be a shame - I had a lot of fun with the 2e version doing just what the OP was talking about. :smallbiggrin:

[sovin_ndore]

Bringing people back to life contingently is also a related option.

I know Sandstorm also had a class that would allow you to reform after death (not as an undead though). And they you have options like Risen Martyr (probably not at all what you want for a BBEG).

You could also just go with the extraplanar enemy option, which although not resultingly undead just gets banished rather than defeated in a meaningful manner when they get destroyed on the material plane.

[Segev]

It is of questionable RAW-legality, but I tend to assume that the reason people become liches after their ceremony is done is because they culminate the ceremony with suicide. Lichdom is, after all, its own benefit, and most probably are eager to assume it. However, if one chooses not to die as soon as possible, one wanders around, still alive, but with one's life force bound to the phylactery. Only becoming a lich when one actually perishes.

While it takes 1d10 days to regenerate after destruction, the conversion to lich upon going from life to death is almost instant.

So you kill this wizard, and then he gets back up. (Not having started rotting yet, it's hard to tell he's, you know, undead.)

[DrMotives]

I like the idea of "now you've killed him, but he ate his Quaker Instant Lich this morning so it's just round 2" idea, although the saddest thing about liches in 3e/3.5 is how they dropped all mention of how a lich works the ceremony, which was always mentioned in 2e stuff about them. A direct port of 2e liches into 3e would be almost the same, the only differences would be upping the caster level, (2e liches were almost epic level, they had to be 18th level casters of any class), but they needed to kill themselves by drinking a potion that facilitated the transformation in addition to crafting the phylactery before offing themselves.

2e also had the concept of "vassalliches", which is a lower level caster that can't be lich by themselves, but has a lich master. The vassallich drinks the death potion, and their soul joins the master lich in the phylactery. As the master holds the phylactery, they master can turn out & destroy the vassal. Of course, if the vassal gains enough CL to make their own phylactery in secret, then they become their own lich when the master's phylactery is destroyed. It's a great system for plot hooks.

[Segev]

THey do mention that there is a ritual which includes an act of "unspeakable evil" as part of it. I do not believe 2e was any more explicit, nor was 1e.

[DrMotives]

No, it gets very explicit. 2e list ingredients for the potion, exact spells needed, and that ingredient list is basically a whole bunch of botanic poisons, animal and monster venoms, and the keystone ingredient is the heart of a sentient creature killed for the express purpose of making the potion. I'm looking at my old books right now.

[Segev]

No, it gets very explicit. 2e list ingredients for the potion, exact spells needed, and that ingredient list is basically a whole bunch of botanic poisons, animal and monster venoms, and the keystone ingredient is the heart of a sentient creature killed for the express purpose of making the potion. I'm looking at my old books right now.

Which book(s) are you referencing? I'm pretty sure the Monstrous Manual (which was my 2e reference) and the 1e AD&D Monster Manual didn't list these things.

[DrMotives]

Which book(s) are you referencing? I'm pretty sure the Monstrous Manual (which was my 2e reference) and the 1e AD&D Monster Manual didn't list these things.

Van Ritchten's Guide to the Lich, but I think even the 2e Monstrous Compendium mention a potion made with the heart of a sentient creature.

[dysprosium]

The mega adventure City of the Spider Queen had the revenant template which creates an undead that has the sole purpose to kill its murderer.

[Thurbane]

It also appears in Monsters of Faerun.

[TheifofZ]

I like the idea of "now you've killed him, but he ate his Quaker Instant Lich this morning so it's just round 2" idea, although the saddest thing about liches in 3e/3.5 is how they dropped all mention of how a lich works the ceremony, which was always mentioned in 2e stuff about them. A direct port of 2e liches into 3e would be almost the same, the only differences would be upping the caster level, (2e liches were almost epic level, they had to be 18th level casters of any class), but they needed to kill themselves by drinking a potion that facilitated the transformation in addition to crafting the phylactery before offing themselves.


In an upcoming build I'm doing, I had planned on grabbing lich come level 11. Wonder if I can swing the whole 'Quaker Instant lich' idea with the DM, because that just reeks of potential awesome.