Are there any books out there without Plot Induced Stupidity?

[Traab]

This popped into my head on the WoT thread when someone asked why the bad guys didnt send out elites right from the start to kill the good guys and I mention PIS as the main reason. I listed how early on in fellowship, the hobbits were trapped by a nazgul and somehow hurling a turnip or rock or whatever lured it away from them, despite it being able to sense the ring and said ring being right there next to them. It seems that a rather large number of stories out there, most notably the ones where the farm boy with a destiny are involved, has a lot of stuff like that. A steadily increasing danger level from the bad guys that never exceeds what the good guys can handle. I think of it as the rpg effect. Oddly enough, every town you go to has bad guys just powerful enough to require the gear you can buy there and no stronger. Are there books without PIS in them? Basically, the good guys are established and capable, the bad guys dont do dumb stuff that lets the hero escape or win (bond style slow death traps for example) things like that? preferably fantasy novels as thats my bread and butter, but a quick outline of some other genres wouldnt be bad.

[Tyndmyr]

Yes. I would generally suggest the Culture novels as a good place to start. Out and out stupidity is rare, even among bit antagonists. Sure, everyone is flawed, but they have consistent flaws, not "and now he suddenly sucks at the thing he's normally good at".

It's *mostly* a pretty hard sci-fi series, but ff you are fond of fantasy, I suggest you check out Inversions. That one, while consistent with the others, is mostly a fantasy book.

[Lethologica]

The Peace War by Vernor Vinge manages to keep its characters away from the Idiot Ball, and is generally a tight, enjoyable read.

And there's always Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, which is expressly designed to avoid that sort of thing. Not that it doesn't have plenty of other flaws, of course.

[Traditio]

Plot induced stupidity is generally kept to a minimum in the Judge Dredd comics, imho.

[Bulldog Psion]

How about various David Gemmell books? Most of the main characters have little plot protection in those, and often end up dying messily partway through the novel.

(Incidentally, in the LotR, the hobbits didn't throw anything to lure the Nazgul away. The Rider stopped, sniffing, near where Frodo was hidden; Frodo felt the urge to put on the ring; then he thought "I am still in the Shire," and at that moment the Rider decided to ride on. I always assumed that was a bit of the "place-magic" that seems to infuse all of Middle-Earth; the Shire is a place of safety, protection, and comfort, so it kind of drew a veil over the Ring-"scent" once Frodo refused the urge to put on the Ring and "invoked" the "power" of his homeland.)

(Now, they may have thrown something in those atrocious movies, but I've done my best to block everything about those except the Balrog fight out of my mind.)

[Kantaki]

Note: The authors and book are german and I don't know if they are available in your part of the world. Or in your preferred reading language. And I will use the original titles.

Christoph Marzi’s Lycidas, Lilith, Lumen and Somnia have antagonists that generally avoid „Plot Induced Stupidity”- type mistakes.

Wolfgang Hohlbein tends to be hit and miss on anything in his novels but at least Dunkel and the Genesis trilogy avoid unnecessary stupidity. Well villian stupidity in the case of Genesis. I mean sure, the main character is a teenage boy but still someone who is going to qualify to study at a university shouldn't be that stupid.

Markus Heitz Dwarves-books and the related novels about his darkelves should be fine too.

Christoph Hardebusch’s Sturmwelten trilogy should be free of stupidity of the plot induced kind.

I'm not sure if that one is available anywhere - it is around 17 years old - but regardless: Schatten über Fraterna by Andreas D. Hesse definitely avoids the „send weak mooks after the heroes first” mistake.

Oh, I thought of one series that is written by a american author. Peter V. Brett’s „The Painted Man” and its follow-up novels.

[BWR]

Matthew Stover's works are pretty darn good at avoiding this sort of stupidity. And pretty darn good in general. People may be stupid and otherwise intelligent people may make stupid mistakes now and then, but heroes are smart and competent (not reliant on ****ty writing to win), things are genuinely dangerous for the heroes, there are real costs for the winners and the author knows his heroic tropes and how best to use and subvert them. I'd recommend "Heroes die", the first book in the Acts of Caine.

[Lethologica]

How about various David Gemmell books? Most of the main characters have little plot protection in those, and often end up dying messily partway through the novel.

(Incidentally, in the LotR, the hobbits didn't throw anything to lure the Nazgul away. The Rider stopped, sniffing, near where Frodo was hidden; Frodo felt the urge to put on the ring; then he thought "I am still in the Shire," and at that moment the Rider decided to ride on. I always assumed that was a bit of the "place-magic" that seems to infuse all of Middle-Earth; the Shire is a place of safety, protection, and comfort, so it kind of drew a veil over the Ring-"scent" once Frodo refused the urge to put on the Ring and "invoked" the "power" of his homeland.)

(Now, they may have thrown something in those atrocious movies, but I've done my best to block everything about those except the Balrog fight out of my mind.)
Such a subtle bit of place-magic would be difficult to portray on film. In the movie, Sam basically shakes Frodo out of his Ring-putting-on trance, which apparently ruins the scent for the Nazgul, and then the throwing of distractions commences. I think it's a decent workaround.

[Fri]

...most of good books don't have plot induced stupidity?

Basically, you're asking "recommend me good books."

Anyway, plot induced stupidity mostly only exist in bad rpg-style books anyway. Not even fantasy book, since most fantasy book don't follow the "defeat the BBEG by defeating lesser enemies in a row" plot. Not even LotR. And even then, people can always argue for the reason on the apparently stupid things people do in books, like "X do stupid things Y because he don't have all the viewpoint like the readers and only thought what's logical from his viewpoint) etc etc.

If what you're asking is basically "recommend me good fantasy book" I'll throw you some in my room that I can see randomly from my seat right now.

There's the less obviously parodical Discworld books, like The Truth (one of my favourite book ever), Going Postal, and Men at Arms.

There's The Witcher.

There's Game of Thrones.

Those are the what I think as good fantasy books that I can currently see from my seat right now.

I can check my bookshelves for more recommendation easily, but feel free to point out what do you think as plot-induced-stupidity from books you've read or those book I recommended for now, and I think I can narrow down my recommendation more.

[The_Snark]

... someone asked why the bad guys didnt send out elites right from the start to kill the good guys and I mention PIS as the main reason.

Oddly, I was about to cite Lord of the Rings as a counter-example: Sauron's first move is to send nine unkillable wraith-kings out to hunt our protagonists - not exactly going easy on them. As the books progress, we see more and more of Sauron's minions, but nothing ever outclasses the Nazgul.

(As has been pointed out, the scene you're talking about differs from movie to book, and I don't think the movie version is too bad either - the only fault lies in the implication that the Ringwraiths can sniff out the Ring like a bloodhound. They can't. They can get vague inklings of its proximity, but unless it's being worn they are mostly reliant on mundane senses, and I seem to recall they're hindered in that area, especially in daylight.)

[Qwertystop]

In Wheel of Time? I assumed the reasons to be:

Mainly:
The Forsaken were not all released at the start - and they all have different preferred methods, and consistently put their personal wants over the most efficient/effective path to success. Ishamael wanted everything to be personal, Lanfear wanted to turn the Dragon rather than kill him, Be'lal wanted the Dragon to get Callandor before dying so that he could take it... Those are the ones visible and free early on, except for the two that showed at the Eye and quickly died, but one could presume that they had their own motives as well.

Also, what elites do you refer to? Myrdraal are operating from the start, as are Trollocs and the big flying things whose name doesn't come to mind. The only other two things I can think of: Gray Men, who are consistently rarer even than Myrdraal and no stronger than humans - travel time alone could account for them, as they might be too rare to risk in the Ways. Gholam aren't intrinsically of the Shadow - someone (I forget who) found one, singular, and made full use of it from then on. What do you refer to that was held back for no reason that I'm forgetting?

[Douglas]

In Wheel of Time? I assumed the reasons to be:

Mainly:
The Forsaken were not all released at the start - and they all have different preferred methods, and consistently put their personal wants over the most efficient/effective path to success. Ishamael wanted everything to be personal, Lanfear wanted to turn the Dragon rather than kill him, Be'lal wanted the Dragon to get Callandor before dying so that he could take it... Those are the ones visible and free early on, except for the two that showed at the Eye and quickly died, but one could presume that they had their own motives as well.

Also, what elites do you refer to? Myrdraal are operating from the start, as are Trollocs and the big flying things whose name doesn't come to mind. The only other two things I can think of: Gray Men, who are consistently rarer even than Myrdraal and no stronger than humans - travel time alone could account for them, as they might be too rare to risk in the Ways. Gholam aren't intrinsically of the Shadow - someone (I forget who) found one, singular, and made full use of it from then on. What do you refer to that was held back for no reason that I'm forgetting?

Last book spoilers:
The specific ones I thought of are Darkhounds and Aiel male channelers. There are reasons to hold both in reserve, but I'd think capturing or killing the Dragon Reborn would trump them.

[Qwertystop]

Last book spoilers:
The specific ones I thought of are Darkhounds and Aiel male channelers. There are reasons to hold both in reserve, but I'd think capturing or killing the Dragon Reborn would trump them.

Darkhounds are limited in number, if more than one pack are in the same place they apparently tend to fight each other as much as the target, and Moraine at least seems to think they're rare enough that Be'lal is unlikely to have more than one pack (all from their first appearance), and current estimates are less than fifteen packs in existence. Being animal, it's probably even more difficult to get them through the Ways than Trollocs, and since creatures of the Shadow can't go through gateways, travel time could again be an issue. Rain stops them as well. They track by scent, which means until you can get them to the trail of someone to track they won't be able to do much, and scents do fade. And they do start to show up in book three - that's not exactly being held back very long, especially when you consider the same reason as before - Ishamael wanted everything to be personal, Lanfear didn't want to kill anyone she could potentially turn.

I've got no explanation for the Aiel not showing up beyond the previous - that the Forsaken are in charge and their motives don't line up with the most efficient victory. I recall a section about the culture deep in the Blight where they are kept, but not enough detail to know if that might contain more reasons.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Most modern works of literature don't have plots. Plenty of stupidity, but none of it is forced by a plot.

Idiot plots aren't necessarily bad. Its character inconsistency that's terrible. "Hero gets captured because he forgets a super power he recently acquired" is very different to "hero gets captured because he forgets a superpower he's had from birth and uses instinctively". Well written stupidity should arise from lack of in character knowledge or character flaws but there's really no reason why characters shouldn't just make foolish mistakes from time to time; its just that the audience often demands that fiction be more logical than real life.

History is basically one act of idiocy after another.

There are some really badly written examples of plot induced intelligence out there that make no real sense. Though often these require the Mary Sue's allies to be unbelievably stupid so that they can't solve the problem themselves.

[snowblizz]

Not to mention most readers have third person omniscience, knows more than most characters put together. And tend to look down on everyone (ie chracters) who don't. 'Cause hindsight is 20/20...

E.g. the Shadow knows some bits and pieces of the Dragon, but is hazy on other particulars. They kill randomly blacksmiths and such on, anyone lucky... So while we the reader know that this boy is the hero, BBEG does not necessarily. So the idea that BBEG will invade random spot to kill random guy with elite troops, is something we know, obviously. BBEG is not necessarily stupid for not having the script to the plot in their hands.

Not ot mention:Even almost until the end the Shadow is close to turning Rand, which is like Da Best Win Evvar, much better than just killing the Dragon quickly once, as I understood it.

[Marillion]

From what I remember, the Deepgate Codex series was low on PIS.

In Scar Night, the first book, a demon is terrorizing a city that's suspended by chains over a seemingly bottomless chasm. This threatens the stability of the ruling church of the God of Chains (the god who dwells at the bottom of the pit), who have an angel in their protection/custody, the last and weakest of his kind and whom they fear will be the next target. From this point on, most (if not all) decisions were driven by established motivations from characters with limited resources. If they choose a less optimal route, it's because the characters didn't have all the information or it would have been inconsistent characterization for one reason or another.

Fantastic setting, by the way.

[Quild]

I listed how early on in fellowship, the hobbits were trapped by a nazgul and somehow hurling a turnip or rock or whatever lured it away from them, despite it being able to sense the ring and said ring being right there next to them.
I don't remember what the books says about this, but there's also the possibility that they can sense a kind of aura from the ring. From far, easy to tell the direction. If you're close however, hard to say how close you are.


It seems that a rather large number of stories out there, most notably the ones where the farm boy with a destiny are involved, has a lot of stuff like that. A steadily increasing danger level from the bad guys that never exceeds what the good guys can handle. I think of it as the rpg effect. Oddly enough, every town you go to has bad guys just powerful enough to require the gear you can buy there and no stronger.
And what do you think about the classic trope "a prophecy tells that I'll be defeated by a child of this village/country/ethnicity, let kill every child!"?
Besides the fact that they always miss the right child, that's often why the child will grow vengeful.

Thing is, the BBEG can't always send his best troops for each and every farm boy who starts to hit the road. They may have better things to do and would never be over with it, especially when the world is large enough without any fast travel.



Are there books without PIS in them? Basically, the good guys are established and capable, the bad guys dont do dumb stuff that lets the hero escape or win (bond style slow death traps for example) things like that? preferably fantasy novels as thats my bread and butter, but a quick outline of some other genres wouldnt be bad.
I'm a big fan of Steven's Brust plots in "Vlad Taltos series". Also fan of his writing style(s).
Some may find the plots too complicated. The first novels are indeed detective stories (in a Fantasy style), the following ones are differents but always implies some complication that the character tries to solve.


There's Game of Thrones.
Ah ah ah. I'd say there's lot of PIS involved in that... It's still good, but it contains a lot of things that shouldn't work. At all.

[Fri]

Ah ah ah. I'd say there's lot of PIS involved in that... It's still good, but it contains a lot of things that shouldn't work. At all.

But is it PIS, or simply in-character stupidity? :smallamused:

Example that I can remember that's always touted as the stupidity example in AGOT is the way Ned do with the information provided to him right before his downfall. Is it Plot-induced Stupidity or it's because it's in his character?

The better example in my opinion is Rob breaking his engagement. That's really the stupidest thing ever. But once again, people could always argue that it's in character to him, instead of plot-induced.

Though hmm... we can also argue that characterization is made by the author, and by relation, is also plot-induced...

[Traab]

I tend to consider it PIS mainly when the character himself should know better than to do what he did. If he is acting in character then it isnt. If the character just forgets he has this problem solving ability or item all of a sudden when its convenient to the plot, then yeah, i complain. As an example of it NOT being PIS. There are a lot of times in the Belgariad where magic would solve the current problem. The reason magic isnt used very often is because of the danger it would bring down on them, so its pure last resort 9 times out of 10. THAT makes sense.

Something that you could argue does not make sense is Gandalf taking so damn long to destroy the bridge. Unless there was a part in the book I forgot that explained why he didnt just shatter the entire bridge and continue running before the balrog showed up, like, it takes time to gather enough power to do that or something, (but then how was he able to defend himself with magic if he was still gathering power to break a bridge?) You say the balrog could have flown across? I say he could have flown up too, that didnt stop breaking the bridge from being effective then. It was awesome and dramatic, and yes ended up way better that way since it gave gandalf an upgrade, but still, unless he knew this would happen, his delaying looks more like an excuse to cause an epic scene than an example of an intelligent wizard defeating a stronger foe.

[Randomguy]

I recommend the web serial Worm, which avoids this trope entirely. You might also want to look into rational fiction, which more or less has the goal of avoiding plot induced stupidity.

[Eldan]

That's very debatable on Worm. *coughAlexandriacough*. I mean, I like it too, but some things later in the story are just strange.

[Randomguy]

That's very debatable on Worm. *coughAlexandriacough*. I mean, I like it too, but some things later in the story are just strange.

Fair point. I guess "avoid's this trope entirely" might be a bit of an exaggeration.

To go into a bit more detail (and to paraphrase Eliezer Yudkowsky), Worm is a superhero story where all of the characters use their powers intelligently (especially the protagonist), none of the supposed geniuses behave like idiots, and the flying bricks who would be the central heroes and villains of other stories play second fiddle to those with information and probability based powers.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I tend to consider it PIS mainly when the character himself should know better than to do what he did. If he is acting in character then it isnt. If the character just forgets he has this problem solving ability or item all of a sudden when its convenient to the plot, then yeah, i complain. As an example of it NOT being PIS. There are a lot of times in the Belgariad where magic would solve the current problem. The reason magic isnt used very often is because of the danger it would bring down on them, so its pure last resort 9 times out of 10. THAT makes sense.

Something that you could argue does not make sense is Gandalf taking so damn long to destroy the bridge. Unless there was a part in the book I forgot that explained why he didnt just shatter the entire bridge and continue running before the balrog showed up, like, it takes time to gather enough power to do that or something, (but then how was he able to defend himself with magic if he was still gathering power to break a bridge?) You say the balrog could have flown across? I say he could have flown up too, that didnt stop breaking the bridge from being effective then. It was awesome and dramatic, and yes ended up way better that way since it gave gandalf an upgrade, but still, unless he knew this would happen, his delaying looks more like an excuse to cause an epic scene than an example of an intelligent wizard defeating a stronger foe.
Nuclear option, in a sense. It was an improvised tactic that shattered his staff--which, as we see later in the series, is a symbol and repository of the Wizard's power and (more importantly) authority. Breaking the staff was like breaking his wizardness in a sense. Gandalf was doing all he could to hold the Balrog off, and breaking the bridge was something he did when it was clear that he was unable to fight the Balrog on the bridge any longer.

It definitely wasn't something he had in mind when he initially stood back to defend the bridge.

[Giggling Ghast]

I would offer up the Elfstones of Shannara, my favourite book of that series. (Note that I haven't read every book, as I found the series to be declining in quality after the Voyage of the Jerle Shannara and turned my back on it.)

As soon as the magical Macguffin keeping them imprisoned breaks down, the baddies send their toughest guys after the heroes. The entire book alternates between the Elves being slowly driven to the point of destruction and the main character fleeing from the nigh-unstoppable assassin on his trail. Victory comes, but it is hard-won.

[Traab]

I actually have most of those shannara books. Not a terry brooks fan at all for some reason. I enjoyed the magic kingdom for sale series well enough, but those elfstone books? Bleh. Its been so long since I even looked at them on my bookcase I forgot what they were about, I just know that speaking as a massive fan of fantasy and such, I dont like his work very much.

[Rockphed]

I actually have most of those shannara books. Not a terry brooks fan at all for some reason. I enjoyed the magic kingdom for sale series well enough, but those elfstone books? Bleh. Its been so long since I even looked at them on my bookcase I forgot what they were about, I just know that speaking as a massive fan of fantasy and such, I dont like his work very much.

I read Magic Kingdom for Sale, and liked it. I read one of the Sword of Shannara books and thought it okay. I read sequels to both, and noticed a trend of declining quality in each case. I think I still liked the last sequel to Magic Kingdom For Sale more than I liked whichever Sword of Shannara book I started with. If they were both written by the same guy, I suspect he is just really bad at writing sequels. Not everybody is good at writing sequels; not everybody needs to be.

[Traab]

I read Magic Kingdom for Sale, and liked it. I read one of the Sword of Shannara books and thought it okay. I read sequels to both, and noticed a trend of declining quality in each case. I think I still liked the last sequel to Magic Kingdom For Sale more than I liked whichever Sword of Shannara book I started with. If they were both written by the same guy, I suspect he is just really bad at writing sequels. Not everybody is good at writing sequels; not everybody needs to be.

If you plan to write books that have continuing story lines, you kinda need to be good at writing sequels. If he wants to stick to one shot novels thats fine, but if you want to write trilogies and up? You need to be good at them. That being said, terry brooks is one of those authors that a lot of people mention when you ask about fantasy, so I assume he has a solid fanbase out there. Its just not my cup of tea. Im a big fan of mercedes lackey, david eddings, david gemmel, and dennis mckiernan is good too, even though I think he tended to rip off tolkien a little too directly in his mithgar books. There is another author, david weber, he is like 95% sci fi, but his single fantasy novel series is freaking awesome imo.

[Kitten Champion]

The Second Apocalypse series by R. Scott Bakker is rather... invested in developing the intricate psychology of its characters which the writer has a pretty firm grasp on and naturally extends into their actions in the plot. For him it's more important you understand why a character did what they did than the action itself.

[Velaryon]

If you plan to write books that have continuing story lines, you kinda need to be good at writing sequels. If he wants to stick to one shot novels thats fine, but if you want to write trilogies and up? You need to be good at them. That being said, terry brooks is one of those authors that a lot of people mention when you ask about fantasy, so I assume he has a solid fanbase out there. Its just not my cup of tea. Im a big fan of mercedes lackey, david eddings, david gemmel, and dennis mckiernan is good too, even though I think he tended to rip off tolkien a little too directly in his mithgar books. There is another author, david weber, he is like 95% sci fi, but his single fantasy novel series is freaking awesome imo.

It's really strange - Terry Brooks is one of the most prolific fantasy authors of the last 40 years, I see his books all over bookstores and libraries, and he seems to be well respected by his fellow authors, but I almost never see fantasy fans say anything nice about his books. He must have a lot of fans, but all I ever see for him is scorn.

Personally, The Sword of Shannara was my gateway to fantasy. I read it before Tolkien, so I wasn't bothered by how derivative it is of Lord of the Rings. Unfortunately, that reputation seems to dog him even though he evolved the series away from that direction. I've certainly read better authors over the years, but I think he gets a lot more flak than he deserves, personally.

[Traab]

Its possible most of his accolades are from critics academics and other high brow types that enjoy dissecting hidden meaning, metaphor, and allegory in everything they read. There are a number of people in all forms of entertainment like that. As an example, greatest guitarist ever lists. Yeah you will see a lot of names that are well known and obvious, but there are always these few names that you never heard of before. They can unleash the most insanely complex melodies known to man, they are clearly incredibly talented, but it sounds like hell to me personally. Only the real guitar aficionados really know these names because their stuff isnt really marketable to the general public.

[Lethologica]

It's really strange - Terry Brooks is one of the most prolific fantasy authors of the last 40 years, I see his books all over bookstores and libraries, and he seems to be well respected by his fellow authors, but I almost never see fantasy fans say anything nice about his books. He must have a lot of fans, but all I ever see for him is scorn.
Ah--it depends which authors you ask. Brooks gets a heap of criticism from other authors (not 'fellow'--they're not exactly a, um, fellowship) who consider Shannara "a tenth-rate rip-off [of LotR]" and lament that it was the leading edge of the derivative-sword-and-sorcery-epic wave. The above quote is from Peter Beagle's introduction to the A Secret History of Fantasy anthology; Beagle certainly made no secret of his feelings about Brooks' work. Neither of these criticisms are particularly fair to make of a 23-year-old's first commercial success, of course.

[McStabbington]

Oddly, I was about to cite Lord of the Rings as a counter-example: Sauron's first move is to send nine unkillable wraith-kings out to hunt our protagonists - not exactly going easy on them. As the books progress, we see more and more of Sauron's minions, but nothing ever outclasses the Nazgul.

(As has been pointed out, the scene you're talking about differs from movie to book, and I don't think the movie version is too bad either - the only fault lies in the implication that the Ringwraiths can sniff out the Ring like a bloodhound. They can't. They can get vague inklings of its proximity, but unless it's being worn they are mostly reliant on mundane senses, and I seem to recall they're hindered in that area, especially in daylight.)

Yeah, that is one of the examples that still holds up really well. The more you dig into Ringlore or read the series, the more you realize that Sauron is never playing stupid. If he uses a goblin horde or something, that might work, but then he may well have to spend the next five hundred years hunting down the right bolthole in the bottom of Mount Gundabad to get his ring back. In theory, he might be able to bend a more powerful agent like a dragon or Durin's Bane to his will and get them to go for it, but that's a guarantee that they'll claim it for themselves and cast him down. The Nazgul do have some limits, but they are an ideal mix of substantial power and total loyalty. About the only thing he risked is that the Nine would be unmasked and in the interim the Ringbearer would fly by eagle to the Cracks of Doom, which was . . . probably the best way to go over all but highly unlikely.

[Traab]

Yeah, that is one of the examples that still holds up really well. The more you dig into Ringlore or read the series, the more you realize that Sauron is never playing stupid. If he uses a goblin horde or something, that might work, but then he may well have to spend the next five hundred years hunting down the right bolthole in the bottom of Mount Gundabad to get his ring back. In theory, he might be able to bend a more powerful agent like a dragon or Durin's Bane to his will and get them to go for it, but that's a guarantee that they'll claim it for themselves and cast him down. The Nazgul do have some limits, but they are an ideal mix of substantial power and total loyalty. About the only thing he risked is that the Nine would be unmasked and in the interim the Ringbearer would fly by eagle to the Cracks of Doom, which was . . . probably the best way to go over all but highly unlikely.

Honestly, I agree but the way it came off in story bugged me. These nine riders. The invincible ringwraiths, most dangerous deadly and loyal of saurons minions, couldnt catch a handful of hobbits with less understanding of SERE than a 5 year old. Its more a dissonance with what we are told about the nazgul and what they DO. I mean, aside from his crowning moment of badassery where the witch king breaks gandalfs staff (unless that was movie only as well, GOD its been so long since I read the books) All they ever do is scream a lot and ride winged mounts.

[Rockphed]

Honestly, I agree but the way it came off in story bugged me. These nine riders. The invincible ringwraiths, most dangerous deadly and loyal of saurons minions, couldnt catch a handful of hobbits with less understanding of SERE than a 5 year old. Its more a dissonance with what we are told about the nazgul and what they DO. I mean, aside from his crowning moment of badassery where the witch king breaks gandalfs staff (unless that was movie only as well, GOD its been so long since I read the books) All they ever do is scream a lot and ride winged mounts.

Well, they spend a lot of time just trying to figure out who they are looking for. Then they spends lots of time tracking the Hobbits through the shire. At one point, probably the point that got bastardized for the sniffing scene in the movie, Frodo and Sam run in with some Elves just before the rider finds them. The only truly unbelievable thing is that Farmer Maggot chases off the rider with only a couple of very large dogs. Once the riders pin-point where they think Frodo will be, 5 of them bust down the gate to Buckland and storm the house they think he is in. I suspect that Sauron told the riders to be as discrete as possible, only revealing their power when they were sure they had the prize. They didn't expect Frodo to try to leave the shire, so they just tried to figure out where he was going.

While it is a bit jarring that we don't see more of the Nazgul, we know that either they or their flying mounts cause panic in all but the strongest willed men. Gandalf fought 5 of them on weather top, but they ultimately drove him off. We hear a lot of them having battles with Gandalf and a few elves while Strider is trying to get Frodo to Rivendell. And then there is the scene where Kind Theoden and his honor guard get taken out by a single Nazgul dropping out of the sky on them. Albeit, it was a Nazgul on a giant dragon-thing, but that leads back to the question of whether it is the mount or the rider who is important.

[Traab]

Well, they spend a lot of time just trying to figure out who they are looking for. Then they spends lots of time tracking the Hobbits through the shire. At one point, probably the point that got bastardized for the sniffing scene in the movie, Frodo and Sam run in with some Elves just before the rider finds them. The only truly unbelievable thing is that Farmer Maggot chases off the rider with only a couple of very large dogs. Once the riders pin-point where they think Frodo will be, 5 of them bust down the gate to Buckland and storm the house they think he is in. I suspect that Sauron told the riders to be as discrete as possible, only revealing their power when they were sure they had the prize. They didn't expect Frodo to try to leave the shire, so they just tried to figure out where he was going.

While it is a bit jarring that we don't see more of the Nazgul, we know that either they or their flying mounts cause panic in all but the strongest willed men. Gandalf fought 5 of them on weather top, but they ultimately drove him off. We hear a lot of them having battles with Gandalf and a few elves while Strider is trying to get Frodo to Rivendell. And then there is the scene where Kind Theoden and his honor guard get taken out by a single Nazgul dropping out of the sky on them. Albeit, it was a Nazgul on a giant dragon-thing, but that leads back to the question of whether it is the mount or the rider who is important.

But thats my point. They dont do anything better than a group of regular joes with a small amount of knowledge in tracking could do. They dont show anything other than being able to see frodo with the ring on that is special to them. And yet we are told they are these terrible monstrous powerful beings. Great kings of old that fell into corruption and slavery. They are off screen badass like you said with gandalf at weathertop, but any time we see them short of the battle for minas tirith they just arent all that impressive other than being really really scary when they scream. So there is that dissonance between what we are told they are and what they show us they are. Its hard to treat them as elites when 4 hobbits with literally zero clue wtf they are doing manage to escape them time and time again.

[Douglas]

I think the Nazgul are elite primarily in their combat capabilities. They don't seem that impressive from what we see because most of the time we see them they're not being challenged in that capacity. For them to really show off someone would have to stand and fight them, and the hobbits (wisely) never even attempt that.

The fact that they're nothing special at tracking and preventing escape doesn't really say anything about their power as combatants.

[Traab]

I think the Nazgul are elite primarily in their combat capabilities. They don't seem that impressive from what we see because most of the time we see them they're not being challenged in that capacity. For them to really show off someone would have to stand and fight them, and the hobbits (wisely) never even attempt that.

The fact that they're nothing special at tracking and preventing escape doesn't really say anything about their power as combatants.

Wouldnt it have made sense for sauron to send out people that COULD track and trap their enemies then? Here is what I would have done, had I been sauron. "The ring is in a land called the Shire and held by someone called Baggins? Ok, you, ringwraith, go collect a band of my human followers, pick ones that are skilled at tracking, get my best horses, and find the ring." That way he can send trackers who know how to do it (and can see/hear/interact with the world better than a wraith) and they are backed up by a nazgul meaning that when they run down and slaughter frodo and whoever is with him, the wraith is there to make sure they dont get any ideas about keeping it for themselves. Or more accurately, that they all die when the ring convinces them to try to claim it. He is also there to provide extra muscle should they run into a problem that requires a freaky undead wraith creature with a sword that tends to break off in the wounds it creates to solve. :smallbiggrin: Anyways, they will be just as conspicuous as sending all 9 nazgul out was, but with skilled trackers they would be far faster at figuring out the hobbits tricks and running them down.

[comicshorse]

Does Sauron have human followers though ? Or at least one's close enough to the Shire to get their in time

[An Enemy Spy]

Does Sauron have human followers though ? Or at least one's close enough to the Shire to get their in time

Yes. In addition to the Haradrim and others in the far south and east, there are people like Bill Ferny. He worked for Saruman who was technically working for Sauron, though Sauron of course would never use Saruman's agents on a mission for the Ring out of the very likely probability that Saruman would take the Ring for himself.

[Rockphed]

But thats my point. They dont do anything better than a group of regular joes with a small amount of knowledge in tracking could do. They dont show anything other than being able to see frodo with the ring on that is special to them. And yet we are told they are these terrible monstrous powerful beings. Great kings of old that fell into corruption and slavery. They are off screen badass like you said with gandalf at weathertop, but any time we see them short of the battle for minas tirith they just arent all that impressive other than being really really scary when they scream. So there is that dissonance between what we are told they are and what they show us they are. Its hard to treat them as elites when 4 hobbits with literally zero clue wtf they are doing manage to escape them time and time again.

The hobbits with no clue escape them twice. They make it across the shire without getting ganked. They make it from the edge of the barrow downs to Bree without getting ganked.

As to the fight at weathertop, in the book Sam notes that it looks like there is lightning coming from weathertop; later we learn that it happened the night Gandalf fought the wraiths. We don't know if it is directed from Gandalf at the wraiths or from the wraiths at Gandalf, but Gandalf ends up being forced to flee.

[ThePhantom]

Ah, but the Nazgul can see the target if they put on the ring, and it would be likely that their target would try that trick to avoid having it being taken away. Other minons of Sauron can't really do that trick, so that makes the Nazgul a better choice for finding the ring.

[Rodin]

I feel it's worth noting that Hobbits are explicitly noted as being able to hide in pretty much plain sight as a racial trait, from the very beginning of The Hobbit where the narration notes that the only reason the reader hasn't seen one is because they don't want to be seen. It's why Gandalf picked up Bilbo to be the team burglar for the dwarves in the first place. Experience didn't matter - he picked Bilbo because he was the only Hobbit that Gandalf knew would be willing to go on an adventure at all. Bilbo wound up being extra good at it thanks to the Ring, but Gandalf had no way to predict that when they set out.

I would wager that, lack of common sense aside, a hobbit is one of the hardest beings to track in Middle Earth. Elves are probably stealthier, but then getting an elf to join the Lonely Mountain expedition was right out.

[Seppl]

Yes. In addition to the Haradrim and others in the far south and east, there are people like Bill Ferny. He worked for Saruman who was technically working for Sauron, though Sauron of course would never use Saruman's agents on a mission for the Ring out of the very likely probability that Saruman would take the Ring for himself.Employing the likes of Bill Ferny or trackers from a land half a world away from the Shire seems like exactly the kind of recipe for disaster that the opening question was about. Bill Ferny is an archetypal incompetent, self-serving mook. A tracker from Harad would be useless in a country that is completely different than his own (assuming that Harad is like northern Africa and the Shire like England).

[An Enemy Spy]

Employing the likes of Bill Ferny or trackers from a land half a world away from the Shire seems like exactly the kind of recipe for disaster that the opening question was about. Bill Ferny is an archetypal incompetent, self-serving mook. A tracker from Harad would be useless in a country that is completely different than his own (assuming that Harad is like northern Africa and the Shire like England).

He wasn't asking if his human agents were useful, only if they existed.

[McStabbington]

Ah, but the Nazgul can see the target if they put on the ring, and it would be likely that their target would try that trick to avoid having it being taken away. Other minons of Sauron can't really do that trick, so that makes the Nazgul a better choice for finding the ring.

There is definitely that, and there's still the fact that the Nazgul are the one asset he has who are immune to the effects of the Ring. I don't really think that Sauron has many agents in Eriador. Saruman certainly does, but neither he nor any of his agents could be trusted in this particular matter. So any humans that he does send to collect it are:

1) moving slower than the Nazgul. Say what you will about them, but they do seem to move very fast.

2) Not going to know the lay of the land better than any of the remaining Dunedain, who have canonically been keeping a watch on the Shire.

3) At best going to be only somewhat better than the Nazgul at tracking. Even when Frodo went off-road, the Nazgul still seemed to track the Ring; to me, it's iffy whether superior normal tracking skill would have meant much given how notoriously difficult hobbits are supposed to be to pin down, especially on their home turf.

4) going to go off the reservation immediately if they find the Ring, which just reintroduces the question of why have them when you can just send the Nazgul and Keep It Simple.

Don't get me wrong, the Nazgul are not perfect. They don't seem to have much in the way of actual tracking ability as opposed to Ring-homing ability, their capacity to blend in either to their surroundings or with people is marginal at best, and their senses honestly seem a bit blunted. But one can still be both a pretty darn good choice and the best available without being perfect.

And just to address Traab's point, I'm going more off the books than the movies. The movies had to make choices of narrative economy all the way through, and one of their choices was to reduce their Spider-sense for the Ring down to merely smelling. It was a tangible, intelligent choice, but it did nevertheless downplay one of their strongest assets in their hunt for the Ring. One of the things I did remark when I first saw it was that they had nerfed the Nazgul significantly (Aragorn wouldn't have been able to toe off with one Nazgul, much less five).

[The_Snark]

Wouldnt it have made sense for sauron to send out people that COULD track and trap their enemies then? Here is what I would have done, had I been sauron. "The ring is in a land called the Shire and held by someone called Baggins? Ok, you, ringwraith, go collect a band of my human followers, pick ones that are skilled at tracking, get my best horses, and find the ring." That way he can send trackers who know how to do it (and can see/hear/interact with the world better than a wraith) and they are backed up by a nazgul meaning that when they run down and slaughter frodo and whoever is with him, the wraith is there to make sure they dont get any ideas about keeping it for themselves. Or more accurately, that they all die when the ring convinces them to try to claim it. He is also there to provide extra muscle should they run into a problem that requires a freaky undead wraith creature with a sword that tends to break off in the wounds it creates to solve. :smallbiggrin: Anyways, they will be just as conspicuous as sending all 9 nazgul out was, but with skilled trackers they would be far faster at figuring out the hobbits tricks and running them down.

I feel like there's no way to win here; if Sauron had sent one Ringwraith and a bunch of minions after the Ring, people would be scoffing, "You have nine undead wraith-kings, you learn the location of the artifact that will let you conquer the world, and you only send *one* out to get it back? What were you thinking?"

In any case. The Nazgul did make use of human servants when it was convenient: they had informants inside Bree, Bill Ferny (a local) and at least one other. They did not make use of trackers, for a mixture of practical and logistical reasons.

I know D&D has conditioned us to think of the Track feat as a sort of magic radar that lets you follow people, but... let's think about how it actually works. You need signs to follow: footprints, crushed grass/plants, broken branches, bits of cloth, and so on. (A lot of the signs you might use to track animals, like scat/territory markings/signs of feeding, don't apply so well to people.) It's not reliable over long distances: not all environments hold signs very well, and they're not guaranteed to be spaced so that each one is within spotting distance of the last. It's not fast, because you need to be carefully inspecting your surroundings; in fact it's quite possible that you're going slower than your quarry, especially if they know they're being pursued. And the trail gets worse the longer you leave it.

I suppose bloodhounds could have circumvented some of these obstacles, but not all of them, and the dogs would have presented other issues (like freaking out around the Nazgul).

On the logistics side, the Nazgul weren't specifically expecting a hunt through the wilderness when they set out. They were told that Baggins came into possession of the Ring over fifty years ago, and that he came from someplace called Shire; that was all Sauron had. Not knowing what to expect, he chose to send out his most powerful, most reliable servants, and figured they could improvise depending on what they found. It's easy to come up with a better plan in hindsight, when you know all the important details, but frankly I feel like Sauron acted pretty sensibly given limited information.

(I wouldn't say the hobbits are clueless, either - as McStabbington says, the movie has to skip a lot of detail for the sake of pacing. Frodo and company actually do take steps to mislead the Black Riders and avoid places that they suspect will be watched.)

[Drascin]

Well, they spend a lot of time just trying to figure out who they are looking for. Then they spends lots of time tracking the Hobbits through the shire. At one point, probably the point that got bastardized for the sniffing scene in the movie, Frodo and Sam run in with some Elves just before the rider finds them. The only truly unbelievable thing is that Farmer Maggot chases off the rider with only a couple of very large dogs.

The Rider basically chuckles at Maggot when he threatens about his dogs and simply retreats leisurely. I'm pretty sure that's not chased off - that's just the Nazgûl figuring he's not going to get anything of use here and laughing at the silly hobbit and his silly dogs.

[Killer Angel]

I would say that PIS is absent, in stories where the conflict is between intelligent or capable characters, so the plot evolves in a race of "who is the smartest?".

things ala Lord Darcy (IIRC) and Locke Lamora

[Bulldog Psion]

The Rider basically chuckles at Maggot when he threatens about his dogs and simply retreats leisurely. I'm pretty sure that's not chased off - that's just the Nazgûl figuring he's not going to get anything of use here and laughing at the silly hobbit and his silly dogs.

In fact, IIRC, he first laughed, then attempted to trample Maggot under the hoofs of his horse before riding off. Maggot whistled for his dogs, but the Nazgul was already riding away. Here we go:


‘He gave a sort of hiss. It might have been laughing, and it might not. Then he spurred his great horse right at me, and I jumped out of the way only just in time. I called the dogs, but he swung off, and rode through the gate and up the lane towards the causeway like a bolt of thunder. What do you think of that?’

So he wasn't exactly seen off by Maggot -- he made a casual (and almost successful) murder attempt on him before riding off to try another method of intercepting Frodo. His treatment of Maggot seems a bit like some ancient undead lord dealing with something contemptible but too insignificant to bother dismounting and cutting the throat of. :smallwink:

[comicshorse]

He wasn't asking if his human agents were useful, only if they existed.

No I was asking if any would be useful. Hence the 'Or at least one's close enough to the Shire to get their in time' comment

[Traab]

I feel like there's no way to win here; if Sauron had sent one Ringwraith and a bunch of minions after the Ring, people would be scoffing, "You have nine undead wraith-kings, you learn the location of the artifact that will let you conquer the world, and you only send *one* out to get it back? What were you thinking?"

In any case. The Nazgul did make use of human servants when it was convenient: they had informants inside Bree, Bill Ferny (a local) and at least one other. They did not make use of trackers, for a mixture of practical and logistical reasons.

I know D&D has conditioned us to think of the Track feat as a sort of magic radar that lets you follow people, but... let's think about how it actually works. You need signs to follow: footprints, crushed grass/plants, broken branches, bits of cloth, and so on. (A lot of the signs you might use to track animals, like scat/territory markings/signs of feeding, don't apply so well to people.) It's not reliable over long distances: not all environments hold signs very well, and they're not guaranteed to be spaced so that each one is within spotting distance of the last. It's not fast, because you need to be carefully inspecting your surroundings; in fact it's quite possible that you're going slower than your quarry, especially if they know they're being pursued. And the trail gets worse the longer you leave it.

I suppose bloodhounds could have circumvented some of these obstacles, but not all of them, and the dogs would have presented other issues (like freaking out around the Nazgul).

On the logistics side, the Nazgul weren't specifically expecting a hunt through the wilderness when they set out. They were told that Baggins came into possession of the Ring over fifty years ago, and that he came from someplace called Shire; that was all Sauron had. Not knowing what to expect, he chose to send out his most powerful, most reliable servants, and figured they could improvise depending on what they found. It's easy to come up with a better plan in hindsight, when you know all the important details, but frankly I feel like Sauron acted pretty sensibly given limited information.

(I wouldn't say the hobbits are clueless, either - as McStabbington says, the movie has to skip a lot of detail for the sake of pacing. Frodo and company actually do take steps to mislead the Black Riders and avoid places that they suspect will be watched.)

The thing is, my idea had the best of both worlds. You had the big scary utterly loyal nazgul there, who could sense the general presence of the ring, and provide highly deadly backup in a fight. And you had people with actual skill at tracking, who could probably interact with other people far easier than a freaking nazgul could. Which wasnt a matter of me thinking in hindsight, sauron KNEW they had to do some tracking and searching to find the ring, he had no idea outside of an entire country and name to work with. So wouldnt it make sense to send beings that are actually skilled at that instead of your fear spreading weapons of terror and warfare? The nazgul would have had a hard time tracking the hobbits if they walked across a muddy shore, they cant SEE properly, and they terrify everyone they talk to even when they dont particularly want to. Subtle, they aint.

And by sending a nazgul with the trackers, they are covered if the baggins fellow uses the ring to try and escape, and covered again if this baggins fellow tries to fight and turns out to be good at it. And covered a third time because when they get the ring and it tempts the trackers into stupidity, the nazgul can just kill them all and make a dead sprint for the border of mordor. Its honestly the smartest plan I can think of that doesnt involve foreknowledge of events.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I can think of a slightly better one. Use more than one team, starting from different points. Make a proper sweep of it.

[Traab]

I can think of a slightly better one. Use more than one team, starting from different points. Make a proper sweep of it.

Well true, but I think sauron was keeping a relatively low profile at the time, right? The 9 riders were bad enough, if there was enough haradrim to count as a battalion being seen all over the dang place in small squads, that might cause issues with more than just gandalf.

[hamishspence]

Unfinished Tales went into some detail on Sauron's plans (why exactly send the Nazgul out alone) and what they did while they were in the Shire (split up, search it, awaken various evil spirits and set them on the watch, and so forth).

[Frozen_Feet]

It should be noted the hobbits escaped only narrowly at Bree thanks to Aragorn, and would've died in the Old Forest without Tom Bombadil. So even if Sauron's plan wasn't the best one possible, it was good enough to nearly succeed at least twice and only failed due to enemy action. There's plot at work there, but it's not plot-induced stupidity.

[Broken Crown]

The thing is, my idea had the best of both worlds. You had the big scary utterly loyal nazgul there, who could sense the general presence of the ring, and provide highly deadly backup in a fight. And you had people with actual skill at tracking, who could probably interact with other people far easier than a freaking nazgul could. Which wasnt a matter of me thinking in hindsight, sauron KNEW they had to do some tracking and searching to find the ring, he had no idea outside of an entire country and name to work with. So wouldnt it make sense to send beings that are actually skilled at that instead of your fear spreading weapons of terror and warfare?

It's a good plan, but I kind of get the impression that Sauron didn't have much to choose from by way of mortal agents in the West. Sauron apparently hadn't even heard of the Shire, so he seems to be lacking in up-to-date intelligence from that part of the world. The Lord of the Nazgul may well have been the closest thing Sauron had to a "local source", since he used to be King of Angmar, way back. And his knowledge of the area was hardly current.

If Sauron used Haradrim or Easterlings (or Orcs! Some of the orcs were quite good trackers), they'd be just as conspicuous as the Nazgul (and might not speak the language, which is a drawback when you're making enquiries). Sauron seems to have been intent on keeping a low profile, possibly in case this "Baggins" person hadn't yet caught wind of the pursuit. At the same time, he was on a tight schedule, so he wouldn't have had time to set up agents in place.

I think the flaws in Sauron's search for the Ring were more a matter of limited resources than bad planning.

[Traab]

Its possible, and like I said, its not so much that it was a bad idea to send the nazgul as it was the way they were written didnt back up their reputation imo. I mean, I had this mental image in my head of them being his highest level troops. Nigh unkillable, virtually unstoppable, an implacable force of terror and death. And 4 hobbits barely into adulthood escaped from them. A ranger with a torch and a sword, not even elendil, just a sword, forced them to fall back instead of, you know, slaughtering him like a fat calf and bringing the hobbits along for late night snacks on the mad dash to mordor. Im aware there are extenuating circumstances in all this, thats why im willing to admit this isnt PIS, its just, they virtually never back up their hype.

[Lethologica]

In the books, Aragorn doesn't drive off the Nazgul at Weathertop; they withdraw for reasons unknown. Strider speculates that 'the name of Elbereth,' which Frodo cried out, was harmful to them in some way. That said, I could also buy that, say, the Nazgul's powers dwindle when far from their master, or in the presence of 'place-magic' like the Shire (or, more obviously/explicitly, Rivendell).

[comicshorse]

Its possible, and like I said, its not so much that it was a bad idea to send the nazgul as it was the way they were written didnt back up their reputation imo. I mean, I had this mental image in my head of them being his highest level troops. Nigh unkillable, virtually unstoppable, an implacable force of terror and death. And 4 hobbits barely into adulthood escaped from them. A ranger with a torch and a sword, not even elendil, just a sword, forced them to fall back instead of, you know, slaughtering him like a fat calf and bringing the hobbits along for late night snacks on the mad dash to mordor. Im aware there are extenuating circumstances in all this, thats why im willing to admit this isnt PIS, its just, they virtually never back up their hype.

Aren't they at their weakest though because they're so far away from Sauron ?

[Gnoman]

A ranger with a torch and a sword, not even elendil, just a sword

Elendil was Aragorn's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather. The special sword he had was Andúril, forged from the shards of the sword Narsil that was wielded by Isildur son of Elendil.

[Douglas]

Elendil was Aragorn's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather. The special sword he had was Andúril, forged from the shards of the sword Narsil that was wielded by Isildur son of Elendil.
He didn't have Anduril yet. Even in the books, it doesn't get reforged until they get to Rivendell. In the movies, it's a lot later.

[McStabbington]

Its possible, and like I said, its not so much that it was a bad idea to send the nazgul as it was the way they were written didnt back up their reputation imo. I mean, I had this mental image in my head of them being his highest level troops. Nigh unkillable, virtually unstoppable, an implacable force of terror and death. And 4 hobbits barely into adulthood escaped from them. A ranger with a torch and a sword, not even elendil, just a sword, forced them to fall back instead of, you know, slaughtering him like a fat calf and bringing the hobbits along for late night snacks on the mad dash to mordor. Im aware there are extenuating circumstances in all this, thats why im willing to admit this isnt PIS, its just, they virtually never back up their hype.

That's . . . not entirely fair. The Nazgul are nigh-unkillable, virtually unstoppable, implacable forces of terror and death. Even in a world where power levels are way higher than seem to be the case in Dungeons and Dragons, you can probably count the number of good guys in Middle Earth who can toe-off with a Nazgul, much less a collection of them, on one hand with fingers to spare.

It's just that they're not being asked to toe off with anyone. They're being asked to hunt down the most elusive possible prey in all of Middle Earth. I think honestly you're kind of underselling exactly what you're saying, because another way of describing their mission is: "Okay, you know Eriador, this entire half of the continent? We need you to go into this area, which you haven't been in for thousands of years, and find one 3 1/2 foot tall little guy who is both naturally resistant to the effects of the Ring and is only slightly easier to track than a fart on a windy day. He's going to be in his home territory to begin with, which may or may not have a kind of place-magic that he might or might not be able to naturally tap into, he may be alone or have friends, and may be going to Rivendell, or the Grey Havens, or maybe Fornost, or maybe he's just hiding in this Shire we just learned the name of last week. Honestly, we really don't know where he's going. Or what he intends. Or what he can even do. All we know is that there are Elves and these darned squirrely last men of Arnor scattered all across that side of the world, and any of them are going to be helping this guy, and you can't really trust any of the agents we have, because they work for Saruman, and you know you can't trust a double agent."

You can be really good and still screw up that mission. Really, really good, because that is one darn difficult mission. I mean, to use an analogy, nobody's going to say that Hulk isn't the strongest there is in the Marvel universe, but I'd still say he's going to have a heck of a time if his job is to hunt down and capture an invisible, teleporting leprechaun that can shift sizes down to that of a flea. It's a job that minimizes Hulk's own skill set, and really just relies on his overwhelming power level, and maximizes the skill set of that leprechaun. The leprechaun doesn't have to be outright stronger to win. He just has to do what he's naturally good at for long enough.

[Broken Crown]

Its possible, and like I said, its not so much that it was a bad idea to send the nazgul as it was the way they were written didnt back up their reputation imo. I mean, I had this mental image in my head of them being his highest level troops. Nigh unkillable, virtually unstoppable, an implacable force of terror and death. And 4 hobbits barely into adulthood escaped from them. A ranger with a torch and a sword, not even elendil, just a sword, forced them to fall back instead of, you know, slaughtering him like a fat calf and bringing the hobbits along for late night snacks on the mad dash to mordor. Im aware there are extenuating circumstances in all this, thats why im willing to admit this isnt PIS, its just, they virtually never back up their hype.

I think the point of the Nazgul is that they're all about terror and despair. They aren't necessarily very formidable fighters: They don't have to be, because 99% of the time, no one will stand and fight them. (In Bree, Merry faints just from being on the same street as one of them, and he doesn't even know what it is at the time.) This does mean, though, that against someone who isn't afraid, or who is beyond fear and despair (like Aragorn or Éowyn), they're a lot less formidable. It also seems to result in them being vulnerable to anything that boosts morale, like a warm fire, or elves singing. A lot of Middle-Earth seems to work that way: Physical effects are often less important than psychological ones.

The Nazgul probably withdrew at Weathertop because, as far as they could tell, their job was done: The Witch-King had stabbed Frodo with a Morgul-Knife, so, as far as they could tell, they'd already won. It was just a matter of time before Frodo fell under their control, at which point they could just ride up and collect him. They hadn't counted on Frodo and friends falling in with a skilled healer like Glorfindel (Arwen in the movie), or on hobbits being so incredibly resilient. This does potentially fall into the category of Plot-Induced Stupidity, admittedly, or at least Villain Ball-level overconfidence.

[McStabbington]

The Nazgul probably withdrew at Weathertop because, as far as they could tell, their job was done: The Witch-King had stabbed Frodo with a Morgul-Knife, so, as far as they could tell, they'd already won. It was just a matter of time before Frodo fell under their control, at which point they could just ride up and collect him. They hadn't counted on Frodo and friends falling in with a skilled healer like Glorfindel (Arwen in the movie), or on hobbits being so incredibly resilient. This does potentially fall into the category of Plot-Induced Stupidity, admittedly, or at least Villain Ball-level overconfidence.

I was thinking about that myself, and the more I thought about it, the more it occurred to me that while all the pieces were there, the easier it would be to overlook because Sauron doesn't really know what he's looking at. Gandalf himself says that of the Mighty (presumably, the guys who are both tasked with opposing Sauron and could conceivably claim the Ring for themselves), he's the only one who has made any effort to study hobbits, and even he says that it took him a dangerously long time to put it together.

Consider exactly what Sauron knows:

1) He knows that a Ring of Power can stretch life without extending it. He knows this because that is exactly what the Nazgul are: very powerful humans whose souls have been so badly stretched and twisted that they have become wraiths that, if not undead, are certainly no longer among the living.

2) Presumably, he also has a standard time frame. There is no canon listing of the time frame to my knowledge, but all accounts say that when he handed out the Nine to great kings and warriors of power in the Second Age, some lasted longer than others according to their strength and character, but eventually all of them fell under the influence of the One. This might have happened in a span that was only the length of a very long-lived man or somewhat longer, but it doesn't seem implausible that even a very strong or decent man could last more than 150 years.

3) He knows that even dwarves that have been purposely built by Aule to resist corruption can be effected by a Ring of Power; they don't live longer, but they do go insatiably greedy and paranoid.

4) He knows that Smeagol, whatever he is, was a Ringbearer for about 500 years. He also knows (or could at least reasonably surmise from the interrogation) that Smeagol himself is a petty little turd, the least of his people.

5) He knows that the Ring was taken by a thief named Baggins, who was something called a hobbit who lived in a place called the Shire, and returned there with the Ring 50 years ago and hasn't been heard from in the wider world since.

Now, there is something vital in this information, but honestly it's not readily apparent and I hardly fault Sauron for not seeing it. It only becomes apparent once you make the non-obvious leap that Smeagol and Baggins are both hobbits, and the only ones who knew that were Gandalf and Aragorn very, very recently.

Namely, the vital clue is that this Smeagol, despite being the absolute least of hobbits, was nonetheless able to carry around the Ring of Power, something substantially more powerful than any of the Nine, for more than three times as long as the most strong-willed human and still didn't fade. It tore him apart inside and fragmented his psyche, yes, but he didn't fade, nor did he leave his little burrow and bring forth the Ring despite Sauron sending out a beacon for it. It had to leave him. And now this Baggins has had it for fifty years, and still hasn't left his faraway home either.

Whatever these hobbits are, then, they are so insanely resistant to the effects of the Ring that you really can't count on many of the best reasons to use the Nazgul. The Nazgul can juice the desire to use the Ring up to 10? Well, that doesn't really work. The Nazgul have Ring radar? That certainly helps, but it's muted by the fact that these hobbits can up and disappear in a twinkling. The Nazgul have Morgul blades, the Black Breath and a ridiculous fear aura? Hobbits apparently could give Ents a run for their money as the most resistant of the Free Peoples to any of those. And not even the hobbits themselves knew that they could do this, because it's not like they were built for it. Hobbits just really like what they like, and cannot be made to like things they don't. And the things they like aren't what the Ring sells.

The pieces for this part of the briefing are technically there, but you'd only know it if you look at Smeagol and say "Holy crap, this is the toughest creature in existence! Who knows how resilient this Baggins will be if he's actually decent and caring? Best not to take any chances whatsoever: you get a bead on Baggins, nuke him from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." This . . . this is not a line of thinking that anyone who looked at Smeagol would adopt. Even Gandalf, the one person who actually knew what he was looking at, really had to walk himself to that conclusion. Given Sauron's available information, to say nothing of his psychological blinders, I am not surprised in the least he didn't pick up on it. I mean, the entire line of thinking depends on Sauron realizing that someone in the world is almost completely immune to his talent for manipulation and corruption. This would be the same Sauron who once buffaloed an entire continent into self-destruction from a prison cell.

And as a consequence, he didn't tell the Witch King to kill the Ringbearer twice just to be safe. And without that knowledge, the Witch King of course bypassed the "kill immediately" route and instead decided to go for the route that would punish this impudent little half-man that made the mighty Witch King run halfway across the world twice over to the Nth degree by stabbing him with a Morgul blade and letting the little bugger wither to a wraith himself. If the story were told from the perspective of the Witch King, I imagine the story would be one of mounting frustration, as what was supposed to be a simple snatch and grab against a target that absolutely nobody seems to think is much of a challenge goes increasingly, maddeningly pear-shaped as his target keeps doing what is supposed to be impossible. Given that frustration, I'd probably think death was too good for this slippery little bugger myself.

[Traab]

McStab, that was an awesome post and I agree with pretty much all of it. The one quibble I have is the juicing the desire to use the ring being ineffective. It may not be AS effective, but it still works pretty well. In the shire, when the nazgul has them pinned down and hiding, frodo very nearly puts the ring on. I forget if sam stops him or something else distracts him and breaks the hypnotic call, but it was a very near thing. Then at The Prancing Pony, Frodo actually does wear the ring, though by accident. I cant be certain but doesnt aragorn imply or say straight out that it was probably the ring itself that caused it to happen? Then at weathertop he DOES wear the ring. Its why he got stabbed in the first place. The nazgul aura of fear combined with the amped up desire to use the ring absolutely worked and made him wear the ring, identifying to the wraiths finally exactly who had it and where he was. There are at least a couple other times when he is shown to barely resist wearing it, such as when they are going through those swamps full of dead bodies. A nazgul flies overhead screeching away and frodo again nearly puts it on. There may be more that I cant think of offhand, but those are less nazgul and more, the ring's influence starting to wear him down.

Once again, im aware that had frodo been a human he likely would have met the nazgul halfway to mordor feeling the call from sauron, im just arguing that the nazguls abilities were actually a good choice in this, except for their lack of tracking ability. Their fear aura basically shuts the hobbits down, the ring juicer was basically a 50/50 shot of working on frodo, with modifiers like distance and level of imminent threat having an effect. (Flying overhead and not directly targeting frodo? That adds an extra 2 points to his will save. Right in front of him with sword drawn? Thats a -4 to will save) But yeah, mind bendingly resistant all things considered since a human would have had to roll three natural 20s in a row just to show that much resistance, and he would be rolling every hour on the hour to stay in control.

But still, the whole weathertop thing, URRRGH! One human with a torch and a regular sword, plus three hobbits who barely have the knowledge to know which end of a short sword to hold onto, and the 4 (or was it 5?) nazgul let themselves be driven off thinking "good enough" even though they are under orders to gtf back to mordor with their masters ring, like, right NOW. Unless they truly SUCK at fighting anything that isnt terrified by their fear auras (which would be shoddy design on the part of sauron imo) there is no reason they couldnt have bulled past aragorn, grabbed the injured frodo, THEN left. By all means, let frodo suffer and gradually be ruined by the morgul blade wound for his temerity in escaping so many times. But let him do all that on the dead sprint back for mordor!

[Jan Mattys]

There's quite a few things to consider regarding the hobbits and the Nazgul.

1) The hobbits are the most elusive creatures imaginable. Elves can be better at stealth maybe, but hobbits are just naturally inclined to do so. Even without the slightest training, they are instinctively able to choose the best time to move and they are naturally very very quiet when they want to.

2) The hobbits' guide is the best ranger, tracker and wild environment expert in all of middle earth, bar the elves (who never consider wild environment "wild", anyway...). Just being able to find them at all and corner them at weathertop is a feat in itself, and probably the Nazgul managed to do so just because of their ring-sniffing abilities. Any other creature tasked with patrolling the road and the hills between Bree and Rivendell would have failed miserably.

3) The Nazgul power level varies a lot, being a function of Sauron's. And at the beginning of the LoTR epic Sauron is not yet the definitive powerhouse. Yes, he is strong and unkillable, but not yet ready to reveal itself and/or claim what he wants by sheer force. I'd say that at the time of Frodo's departure from the Shire, quite a few good guys could almost go toe to toe with him (if not for the - you know - unkillable part) and have their say. Not necessarily win, but at least give him a nice fight and not be utterly crushed.

4) Nazgul grow weaker the farthest they are from Sauron. Couple this with point 2, and you can understand how at the start of the story, far away in Eriador, the Nazgul are mere shadows of the same Ringwraiths that completely dominate the Pelennor Fields battle with their shrieks alone. In the book, at the height of the Minas Tirith battle, the Witch King confronts Gandalf alone. We do not get to see the confrontation (Rohan comes and he flees because he's needed elsewhere) but it is strongly suggested that the outcomes would have been similar to the Extended Version of the Movie (Gandalf is unable to match his power and his staff is broken). Just a year before, and the Ford of the Bruinen, Glorfindel (while an extremely powerful Elven Prince in his own right, not even close to Gandalf the White level) kept all nine Ringwraiths at bay just by being there. This clearly shows how the Ringwraiths of the Shire, of Bree and of Weathertop were completely different, and much weaker.

5) Even without Anduril, Aragorn is one of the best (if not THE best) human fighter of the setting. He trained under Glorfindel, he's got almost a century of fighting experience, and his hate for Ringwraiths burns hot. The thing is, in Tolkien's world lineage is power, and being the great great great great great grandson of Elendil gives him a majesty that is almost palpable to Sauron's minions. It is also probable that they were still somehow weak after their confrontation with Gandalf at Weathertop a couple days before that.

[Traab]

The thing about aragorn being a kickass fighter, its true, and I get that, but keep in mind that im fairly sure the nazgul have fought and killed elves. Thousands of years old, centuries upon centuries of training practice and experience, and a lineage that leads back way beyond the time of man. The nazgul are still in existence. And even if aragorn is this ultimate badass while the nazgul are at their weakest, there are still four of them, and one of him. All they had to do is dedicate three of them to keep him contained, while the 4th quickly obliterates sam merry and pippin, and drags frodo away to where the other 5 nazgul are already gathering. Aragorn could beat them maybe, but not kill them. We learn about this at the river when they get swept away and they basically have to go floating back to mordor. They can afford to throw their "lives" or whatever away for this mission. But they didnt. They retreated from what should have been their moment of triumph. They knew it wouldnt be that easy. Rivendell was close enough to be a threat. Thats why the nazgul came back and tried to stop them again. So why didnt they press the attack?

Oh, and the nazgul found them at weathertop because 75% of the hobbits are brain dead idiots who thought starting a fire on top of a mountain that was used as a SIGNALING TOWER was a bright idea.

[Jan Mattys]

Oh, and the nazgul found them at weathertop because 75% of the hobbits are brain dead idiots who thought starting a fire on top of a mountain that was used as a SIGNALING TOWER was a bright idea.

Oh, absolutely. But I don't think that's Plot Induced Stupidity.

Remember, Frodo is often depicted as the wise one. Merry and Pippin (the latter particularly so) are incredibly carefree and naive at the start of the LoTR story, even from a hobbit point of view (and that's saying something). It's only after witnessing Boromir dying for them and after suffering through the march to Isengard that they slowly grow past their naive light-hearted mood.

I'd say that cooking dinner during a boring night was a jolly - albeit baffingly stupid - way for them to cope with stress.

[McStabbington]

I think it's fair to say there were idiot balls on both sides at Weathertop. Traab is right that with five Ringwraiths, the Witch King should have just overran the party, nabbed Frodo and bolted. Had he done so, the odds that Sauron wins is virtually 100%. It's a Hail Mary that Glorfindel (note: I think you're underestimating Glorfindel on this one. This would be the same Glorfindel whose CMOA to this point was to solo a Balrog during the retreat from the destruction of the lost city of Gondolin. I think he would pose a very, very significant threat to even the combined might of the Nine) could track him down and get either him or the Ring back without being claimed by the Ring in the process.

I can see an argument to be made that once he got the Morgul blade in Frodo, the Witch King got surprised or was worn out and just said "Eh, good enough." One of the things I don't think people who talk about plot holes give enough credit to is the fact that people don't always pick the smartest option. I like to think of myself as prudent worker, but that's because I pick the best option given a snap judgment 99% of the time. If I have 200 snap judgments to make, that means even as a prudent person I'll make 2 errors per day. The Witch King may be an undead abomination with only vague recollections of a man, but it's hardly impossible to think that if he still has free will, he still has the capacity to make mental errors, especially if that error was made in the hopes that this group of troublesome little rat people would TPK themselves trying to get the Ring from wraith-Frodo.

But it's still far from the smartest thing the Witch King could have done. He really should have just killed everything that moved on Weathertop, grabbed the Ring, and then made for the Gap of Rohan.

[Traab]

The interesting thing is, even if glorfindel had caught up and managed to nab frodo, frodo would be dead. That wound was like, minutes from killing him, even with the best care aragorn and glorfindel could manage on the fly. That leaves the ring unclaimed, and aside from hobbits, we have yet to see or even hear of ANYONE being able to give up the ring once they have held it. Possible exception being boromir at caradras, but even then it was more holding the chain and holy cow was he tempted. So glorfindel managing to snag back the ring could have gotten very very messy, very very quickly. Thats a long trip back to rivendell all by himself with the ring in his possession. That could make for an interesting what if scenario. Even if he did bring it back to rivendell, even if he did manage to let go of it so they could decide to try and destroy it (I could see sam swearing to see it destroyed for killing his master) It would have its hooks in him to some extent.

[Gnoman]

The interesting thing is, even if glorfindel had caught up and managed to nab frodo, frodo would be dead.

The morgul-blade doesn't kill - it turns you into a wraith bound to Sauron.

[Traab]

The morgul-blade doesn't kill - it turns you into a wraith bound to Sauron.

Can you really consider a wraith to be alive?

[Lethologica]

As I mentioned before, Frodo invokes the name of Elbereth Gilthoniel, i.e. Varda, the Vala of the stars, and Aragorn names this as deadly to the Nazgul. But I wasn't sure why, so I went back and looked up Elbereth, and found that it came up much earlier, when Frodo & co. came upon the elves in the Shire. Gildor named Frodo elf-friend and said, "May Elbereth protect you!" So Frodo is calling on the protection previously bestowed on him by Gildor, under a night sky full of stars (though they fade against the light of moonrise, just before the Nazgul appear). This, I think, is the salient point--which Tolkien left unstated, because none of the characters could know it.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Just finished All You Need is Kill (Japanese graphic novel, the inspiration for Edge of Tomorrow); pretty good story! It's a great example of averting PIS--heck, the lead character starts thinking with the savviness of a D&D player pretty early. After he figures out the premise that the story hinges on, he starts figuring out how to exploit it. Quite a clever read.

[Sapphire Guard]

Aragorn isn't a threat to the witch king thanks to that prophecy, but he's dangerous enough to be a threat to some of the others. Once Frodo gets stabbed, that's a win, as far as the witch king knows because there is no way Frodo should have been able to withstand that wound for nineteen days. Once the stabbing is achieved, he thinks he's won. Why risk losing his wraiths when he only has to wait for the Ringbearer inevitably succumbing? Aragorn and Glorfindel could hold off its effects, but it took Elrond (basically the most skilled individual on the continent except maybe Galadriel) before Frodo could recover and the wound never fully healed even then. When Frodo didn't fall quickly, he picks up the chase again, but by then he's chasing a ranger, a hobbit, and an elf across unfamiliar territory, and can't quite catch up in time.

This is a bit late, but about no PIS in Methods of Rationality, there's no other explanation for Harry being given a Time Turner on his first day.

[Lamech]

The morgul-blade doesn't kill - it turns you into a wraith bound to Sauron.

I've always wondered why Sauron didn't try and mass produce wraiths with those things. And if we want to be serious about plot induced stupidity Gandalf could have just eagled his way into Mordor.

Also sending trackers with the Ring Wraiths? First off, the Ring Wraiths can, I assume, ride 24/7, so the tracker would probably be dead or exhausted to uselessness. Second, it would slow the Wraith down, and they would have missed Frodo completely. Third picking up a human tracker would have been a detour and they would have missed Frodo. An orc could be gathered quicker, but would be really conspicuous and probably died from sunburn anyway. Finally, it wouldn't have helped since trackers are slow, so you won't catch up anyway.

So to summarize if the Wraiths had slowed down to get a tracker they would have missed Frodo, and probably not had a tracker, but if the tracker did make it they could waste time failing to catch up to the Hobbits. Actually, since not all of the nine showed up they probably were probably attempting other methods of finding the Hobbits.


Aragorn isn't a threat to the witch king thanks to that prophecy, but he's dangerous enough to be a threat to some of the others. Once Frodo gets stabbed, that's a win, as far as the witch king knows because there is no way Frodo should have been able to withstand that wound for nineteen days.The Hobbits weren't part of the race of Man, so they could have killed him. Aragon cripples him, Hobbit pushes him into the fire. Or trips him or something equally stupid.

[Eldan]

The eagles come up again and again if people want to talk about stupid decisions in LotR and I think the answer is twofold and simple. First, they wouldn't get in undetected. No way. They are powerful beings and Sauron would surely sense and see them if hey entered his realm. Which would ruin the plan. He could come to Orodruin himself. He could send the Nazgul. He could do any of dozens of things.

Second, why would the eagles come? Gandalf doesn't command them. They owed him a favour, which was repaid.

As for the wraithblade, we don't know how hard it was to make. Why didn't Feanor produce hundreds of Silmaril? Why doesn't ever human in Arda have his own ring? Why doesn't ever hobbit hold a blade of Arnor?

[Rockphed]

The eagles come up again and again if people want to talk about stupid decisions in LotR and I think the answer is twofold and simple. First, they wouldn't get in undetected. No way. They are powerful beings and Sauron would surely sense and see them if hey entered his realm. Which would ruin the plan. He could come to Orodruin himself. He could send the Nazgul. He could do any of dozens of things.

Second, why would the eagles come? Gandalf doesn't command them. They owed him a favour, which was repaid.

As for the wraithblade, we don't know how hard it was to make. Why didn't Feanor produce hundreds of Silmaril? Why doesn't ever human in Arda have his own ring? Why doesn't ever hobbit hold a blade of Arnor?

If anything, after the events of the Lord of the Rings, Gandalf owes the Eagles several favors. They invoked the favor in The Hobbit when rescuing Gandalf, Bilbo, and Dwarves from the burning pine trees (not exactly one of Gandalf's better plans), then again when they rescued Gandalf from the top of Isengard, and probably the third time when conveying Gandalf from Moria to Lorien (though that might have been Galadriel calling in a favor). I don't know what a wizard needs to do to repay a Lord of the Sky for a lift, but I don't think a bucket of kibble would do the trick.

[Douglas]

This is a bit late, but about no PIS in Methods of Rationality, there's no other explanation for Harry being given a Time Turner on his first day.
There are multiple other explanations for that. One of them involves major near-the-end spoilers.
The not-so-spoiler one is that this version of Harry, given a Time Turner later than the earliest possible moment, would inevitably use it to try to get it earlier. Thus, the only consistent outcome is that he does get it at the earliest possible moment, so that's what happens.

The other is Dumbledore arranged it, acting on the guidance of every prophecy ever*. This is also the reason for Harry's sleep disorder of a 26-hour body clock - it's the result of a potion routinely administered to people who will get Time Turners, and Dumbledore secretly fed that potion to Harry when Harry was a child, again acting on the guidance of every prophecy ever.

* For certain values of "every" and "ever". I'm not sure about just how wide the scope of the prophecy-collecting spell Merlin set up was. In any case, it gathered a lot of prophecies from a large area over a long period of time, and Dumbledore listened to all of them.

[McStabbington]

I've always wondered why Sauron didn't try and mass produce wraiths with those things. And if we want to be serious about plot induced stupidity Gandalf could have just eagled his way into Mordor.



Everyone talks about the Eagles, but honestly we all know the reason why they weren't used: they would have nullified the plot. And whenever you talk about Plot-Induced Stupidity, you always need to distinguish plot holes that are there because the writer didn't think something through or needed the plot to go a certain direction, and a hole that nullifies the plot entirely. The latter always exist, and they are just something you have to live with. In Toy Story, Buzz didn't know that he was a toy. That didn't stop him from freezing when Andy or any other children were around. And good that he did: that would have destroyed the buddy comedy in favor of a plot by all toys to maintain the Masquerade while the military kills every Buzz Lightyear with fire. Since I like the buddy comedy, I ignore the plot hole as the plot-negating point it is and assume there must be a handwave somewhere that makes Buzz do that.

Same with the Eagles. They were unavailable, they couldn't do the job, the Eye of Sauron could have burned an Eagle right out of the sky, whatever. For some reason, they were so obviously unworkable as a solution that they were not considered. I'm fine with that, and I'll save my commentary about the Eagles for bad Cracked Reviews.

[Eldan]

I think as far as Gandalf is concerned, one can often assume not PIS, but PIDRTAPE. Plot Inducing Deeper Reasons That Aren't Properly Explained.

[An Enemy Spy]

Everyone talks about the Eagles, but honestly we all know the reason why they weren't used: they would have nullified the plot. And whenever you talk about Plot-Induced Stupidity, you always need to distinguish plot holes that are there because the writer didn't think something through or needed the plot to go a certain direction, and a hole that nullifies the plot entirely. The latter always exist, and they are just something you have to live with. In Toy Story, Buzz didn't know that he was a toy. That didn't stop him from freezing when Andy or any other children were around. And good that he did: that would have destroyed the buddy comedy in favor of a plot by all toys to maintain the Masquerade while the military kills every Buzz Lightyear with fire. Since I like the buddy comedy, I ignore the plot hole as the plot-negating point it is and assume there must be a handwave somewhere that makes Buzz do that.

Makes you wonder if toys just instinctively go limp whenever a human walks in, and only the ones who are aware that they are toys even notice because they're more experienced. You'll notice that Buzz doesn't even seem to be aware who Andy even is or that he's been playing with him and sleeping in his bed. Buzz doesn't just go limp, he turns off altogether whenever Andy is around.

[Traab]

Well he is aware that andy gave him his mark or whatever, when andy wrote his name on buzz's foot. *EDIT* He seems to interpret it all as some backwards tribal behavior from an underdeveloped planet he has crash landed on.

[Lamech]

The eagles come up again and again if people want to talk about stupid decisions in LotR and I think the answer is twofold and simple. First, they wouldn't get in undetected. No way. They are powerful beings and Sauron would surely sense and see them if hey entered his realm. Which would ruin the plan. He could come to Orodruin himself. He could send the Nazgul. He could do any of dozens of things.
I've always assumed Gandalf had deeper important reasons for everything he does. That was tongue in cheek.




As for the wraithblade, we don't know how hard it was to make. Why didn't Feanor produce hundreds of Silmaril? Why doesn't ever human in Arda have his own ring? Why doesn't ever hobbit hold a blade of Arnor?Not making Wraithblades. I mean stabbing people with them to make wraiths!

[Traab]

I've always assumed Gandalf had deeper important reasons for everything he does. That was tongue in cheek.


Not making Wraithblades. I mean stabbing people with them to make wraiths!

They seem to disintegrate after being used.

[The_Snark]

They seem to disintegrate after being used.

They disintegrate in sunlight. But the one Frodo got stabbed with was broken in the process, yeah.

Anyway. I don't think the wraiths made by doing this are necessarily useful... the Nazgul are extraordinarily powerful because they're ancient sorcerer-kings bearing Rings of Power, not because they're wraiths. Sauron did have a number of miscellaneous evil spirits and such at his disposal, but we never learn much about them. I'm guessing that they tend to be either tied to specific places (like the spirits of the Dead Marshes, the watchers at Cirith Ungol, or whatever was in Minas Morgul), or unable to affect the physical world, or sometimes a bit of both.

[Broken Crown]

Everyone talks about the Eagles, but honestly we all know the reason why they weren't used: they would have nullified the plot.

There are also a couple of perfectly valid, in-story reasons why the eagle plan would have failed miserably. First, as has already been mentioned, Sauron would have noticed them immediately, which is kind of the opposite of the Fellowship's plan. Second, it doesn't address the real problem: Once you get the Ring to Mount Doom, how do you throw it away? Its influence grows stronger as it gets closer to the place it was made. The eagles are powerful and proud, ripe for corruption. What would prevent Gwaihir the Windlord from saying, "I'm going to take this Ring, fly straight to Barad-Dur, and toss Sauron off the top of his tower"? At which point, Sauron gets the Ring hand-delivered to him.

There's also the issue of the eagles being the servants of Manwë, chief of the Valar, and therefore barred from interfering in affairs in Middle-Earth to some extent. Tolkien doesn't make it clear how far that goes, but evidently far enough to keep them from resolving the plot.


Anyway. I don't think the wraiths made by doing this are necessarily useful... the Nazgul are extraordinarily powerful because they're ancient sorcerer-kings bearing Rings of Power, not because they're wraiths.

Yeah. I kind of get the impression that the wraiths created by Morgul-Blades would have all the limitations and weaknesses of the Nazgul, with none of the power. Not good for much, except as a way of tormenting someone for eternity.

[Rockphed]

There's also the issue of the eagles being the servants of Manwë, chief of the Valar, and therefore barred from interfering in affairs in Middle-Earth to some extent. Tolkien doesn't make it clear how far that goes, but evidently far enough to keep them from resolving the plot.

But not enough to stop them from being Feathery-Deus-Ex-Machina in the climactic last battle at the end of both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Maybe they just really enjoy the taste of orc flesh. Sauron can't have a lock on all the critters that like eating things.

[An Enemy Spy]

Is Sauron sitting at the top of Barad Dur? I always imagined him as a disembodied spirit that is somehow contained in the tower, looking down with his Great Eye.

[The Glyphstone]

Is Sauron sitting at the top of Barad Dur? I always imagined him as a disembodied spirit that is somehow contained in the tower, looking down with his Great Eye.

That's another invention of the movies. In the books, Sauron does have a physical form, referenced by Gollum when he talks about being captured and interrogated - 'the Dark Hand had four fingers' or something like that.

[The_Snark]

There are also a couple of perfectly valid, in-story reasons why the eagle plan would have failed miserably.

Not to mention the logistical issue of contacting them. This is another movie-book difference: the movies heavily imply that Gandalf is able to summon them via moth-messenger, but in the books they always show up on their own schedule*. If the Council of Elrond had decided to send the Ring via eagle, step 1 of their plan would have had to be "the Ring-Bearer hangs around in Rivendell until one of the eagles happens to show up for unrelated reasons."

*Most of their appearances are reactions to very visible events, like giant armies on the march or goblins setting forest fires. Gwaihir rescuing Gandalf from Isengard was a happy coincidence; he was actually just dropping by to deliver news, as a favor to another wizard.

[Quild]

I do like Oglaf's explanation (oglaf.com/ornithology) for Eagles.

(comic mostly NSFW, this page is (assuming it's safe at your work to surf on comics websites))

[Bulldog Psion]

Not to mention the logistical issue of contacting them. This is another movie-book difference: the movies heavily imply that Gandalf is able to summon them via moth-messenger, but in the books they always show up on their own schedule*. If the Council of Elrond had decided to send the Ring via eagle, step 1 of their plan would have had to be "the Ring-Bearer hangs around in Rivendell until one of the eagles happens to show up for unrelated reasons."

*Most of their appearances are reactions to very visible events, like giant armies on the march or goblins setting forest fires. Gwaihir rescuing Gandalf from Isengard was a happy coincidence; he was actually just dropping by to deliver news, as a favor to another wizard.

Yes, the Eagles are pretty much a random encounter with a very, very low chance of occurring. And yes, I do like the Oglaf explanation as well. "It's ****ing walk o'clock" indeed. :smallbiggrin:

[Zea mays]

Has the counter-question been addressed anywhere? Namely, why didn't Sauron send the nazgul out on their fell flying beasts from the start instead of bothering with the black horses? They would have gotten to the shire and back before tea time (not to mention the whole not-drowning-in-the-river thing).

[Traab]

Has the counter-question been addressed anywhere? Namely, why didn't Sauron send the nazgul out on their fell flying beasts from the start instead of bothering with the black horses? They would have gotten to the shire and back before tea time (not to mention the whole not-drowning-in-the-river thing).

They didnt know where the shire was, they didnt know where baggins was, and its really hard to remain inconspicuous when you start asking people which way to the shire while riding a monstrous flying creature. It may also be because the flying creatures cant fly in the light. Iirc, they didnt show up till after sauron sent out his gloom from mordor to block out the sun moon and stars. I may be confusing this story with another however. But even if I am wrong about that last point, the rest of it still stands.

[An Enemy Spy]

Has the counter-question been addressed anywhere? Namely, why didn't Sauron send the nazgul out on their fell flying beasts from the start instead of bothering with the black horses? They would have gotten to the shire and back before tea time (not to mention the whole not-drowning-in-the-river thing).

Because everyone from Minas Tirith all the way to Rivendell would have known about them? Hard to do a covert mission on the back of a giant flying monster.

[Broken Crown]

Has the counter-question been addressed anywhere? Namely, why didn't Sauron send the nazgul out on their fell flying beasts from the start instead of bothering with the black horses? They would have gotten to the shire and back before tea time (not to mention the whole not-drowning-in-the-river thing).

Ugluk (captain of Saruman's Uruk-Hai) asks Grishnakh very nearly the same question on their way to Isengard with Merry and Pippin: "If your Boss' Nazgul are so special, why doesn't he sent them to do this job?"

Grishnakh replies that the flying Nazgul are being saved "for the war"; presumably they're supposed to be a big, unpleasant surprise for the defenders of Gondor. Sending them out early would spoil the surprise.

While they do show up before Sauron's darkness arises, the fell beasts do only ever seem to come out after dark, so maybe they're just as adverse to sunlight as any of Sauron's corrupted creatures.

[Susano-wo]

all the LotR plot explanations are very good and I wholeheartedly agree with all of them. I just want to add one more thing. Sauron is being cautious because he's afraid. He's afraid of what will happen if a truly powerful being (E.G Galadriel, any 'Wizard') gets a hold of it. It would be ruinous for Middle Earth for one of them to depose big S, but it would be just as ruinous for himself.

This provides the underpinning for the need for a stealthy approach, rather than having his Nazgul just start slaughtering Shire-Folk until they led him to Baggins (or whatever ones chosen, unstealthy solution might be) ,which, may not have worked anyway, but might be a sensible solution for someone knowing nothing about hobbits, aside from the fear of someone else truly claiming the ring.

[Rockphed]

Back to the topic of plot induced stupidity: Do plot induced OSHA violations count? I just finished reading a book where the main character got locked inside a room at a hotel because she didn't have a key-card. She then decided to jump out of a 3rd floor window to avoid talking to the police.

Leaving aside the not wanting to talk to the police thing, I am fairly certain that every door made in the last 50 years has been required to be open-able in the dark without any paraphernalia in case of fire. Am I missing something here?

[Susano-wo]

Not to mention that I've never seen a hotel that needed the key-card to leave the room (though it would prevent you from accidentally locking yourself out.

But I would definitely think that that would count. its stupidity on the part of an in-world designer unreasonable for the situation.

[Rogar Demonblud]

There are high-security doors that require a card whichever way you're going. Never heard of one in a hotel, but I've never stayed any place fancy.

[McStabbington]

Back to the topic of plot induced stupidity: Do plot induced OSHA violations count? I just finished reading a book where the main character got locked inside a room at a hotel because she didn't have a key-card. She then decided to jump out of a 3rd floor window to avoid talking to the police.

Leaving aside the not wanting to talk to the police thing, I am fairly certain that every door made in the last 50 years has been required to be open-able in the dark without any paraphernalia in case of fire. Am I missing something here?

I'm not certain that OSHA is the applicable law, but otherwise no, your concerns are not off-base. A hotel with a room that can't be exited in case of emergency because it requires some special means of exiting is a hotel that will shortly be swimming in wrongful-death suits or have a room that essentially cannot be occupied. I suppose a government facility might well have such doors, but not a hotel.

[thompur]

Any book by Robert J. Sawyer.