Fairy Tale magic and observation

[Yora]

I just noticed an interesting theme in lots of fairy tales and myths. Some humans encounter a magical being that uses its power to help them, but in the end the humans get to curious and spy on the magic work and then the magic creature has to leave and everything it did for them is lost.

Has there been any antropological or folkloristic research on why this theme shows up seemingly everywhere?

[georgie_leech]

The cynic in me points out that it's an easy way to reinforce the virtue of a lack of curiosity and not questioning your providers (like your parents), but I'd also be interested in real research being done.

[Bulldog Psion]

No research to back this up, but I suspect that it's related to dreams.

I'd imagine everyone has had dreams where something they wanted to have true actually was true, sometimes in enough detail for it to seem real while you're dreaming it. The person you're missing really isn't dead; the thing you lost is there again; etc. etc.

Then you wake up and for a second or two you think it was something that happened, then your mind awakens fully and you realize it was never real. And you feel really disappointed and sad.

It seems to have that whole feeling of "something you really want to have happen slipping away from you when you look at it closely/logically."

Or just an echo of the awareness that everything that we value slips away like smoke and ceases to be, leaving a sense of unreality and emptiness.

[Yora]

Another slightly educated guess could be that it could serve as a kind of explanation why there are so many stories of magic in the world around you but you never actually see it while it's happening. You see the results of many things that supposedly where done by magic, but wherever you look, you can never observe the process.

Stories of this type might say that you could theoretically observe it, but it only works as long as nobody is looking. Which is why all the helpful magic creatures always try to keep it secret (otherwise they can't use their powers to help) and why everyone who has seen magic is unable to provide any proof. All evidence automatically self destructs.
Magic is real and everywhere, but only when you're not looking.

[Telonius]

I just noticed an interesting theme in lots of fairy tales and myths. Some humans encounter a magical being that uses its power to help them, but in the end the humans get to curious and spy on the magic work and then the magic creature has to leave and everything it did for them is lost.

Has there been any antropological or folkloristic research on why this theme shows up seemingly everywhere?

There has, but unfortunately the publishers keeps losing the manuscripts

[Spojaz]

It's obviously just racial memory from before our curiosity killed off magic entirely. JK

I think it's a particularly convenient way for a storyteller to say "kids, don't question this aspect of the story, I know it doesn't work that way.", while wringing some plot out of it.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Another slightly educated guess could be that it could serve as a kind of explanation why there are so many stories of magic in the world around you but you never actually see it while it's happening. You see the results of many things that supposedly where done by magic, but wherever you look, you can never observe the process.

Stories of this type might say that you could theoretically observe it, but it only works as long as nobody is looking. Which is why all the helpful magic creatures always try to keep it secret (otherwise they can't use their powers to help) and why everyone who has seen magic is unable to provide any proof. All evidence automatically self destructs.
Magic is real and everywhere, but only when you're not looking.

That sounds like quantum mechanics. Oh god physics killed magic!

In reality what would be better you think, the almost worldwide benefit that is provided by modern science and a better understanding of physics, or the much greater but individual benefit magic would provide(considering the fact that we being generally open and being an at least slightly above average intelligence population of people whose greatest gifts seem to be abusing magic like fantasy systems would likely be the population of magic users)?

Though I guess if any of us did have magic we would likely destroy it again in our attempts at endless system mastery.

[Grinner]

I just noticed an interesting theme in lots of fairy tales and myths. Some humans encounter a magical being that uses its power to help them, but in the end the humans get to curious and spy on the magic work and then the magic creature has to leave and everything it did for them is lost.

What are you thinking of in particular?


The cynic in me points out that it's an easy way to reinforce the virtue of a lack of curiosity and not questioning your providers (like your parents)...

That seems like a highly biased take on the matter, though.

[georgie_leech]

That seems like a highly biased take on the matter, though.

Probably, but I didn't grow up with those kinds of tales if that's what you're implying.

[Grinner]

Probably, but I didn't grow up with those kinds of tales if that's what you're implying.

Nah. I was just remarking on how it jumps straight to conspiracy theory. Didn't mean personal anything by it.

Kinda like certain ideas about the genesis of religions, it's not inconceivable that these things would be generated as a means of civil control, but that reasoning seems like a jump to a conclusion.

It might be prudent to examine how these stories originate in the first place.

[georgie_leech]

Nah. I was just remarking on how it jumps straight to conspiracy theory. Didn't mean personal anything by it.

Kinda like certain ideas about the genesis of religions, it's not inconceivable that these things would be generated as a means of civil control, but that reasoning seems like a jump to a conclusion.

It might be prudent to examine how these stories originate in the first place.

Like I said, it's the cynic in me that goes there. Not the conspiracy nut in me, that guy is too busy wondering if fairy tales were all true and are leaked histories that the government tried to supress:smallbiggrin: I'd be interested in seeing real research.

[Kato]

What are you thinking of in particular?


I kind of have to agree. I can think of maybe one or two occasions of such elements in stories I remember, not really something I would call a theme?

[Kantaki]

I think those stories are about trust, about keeping promises (even unspoken ones) and about not questioning good things that happen too much.

The Heinzelmännchen leave Cologne because the people spy after them instead of accepting that someone does their work in exchange for a little food. Fairy wifes and similar beings run away because the partners break their word and spy after them. Someone looses everything because a jealous neighbour (or stupid family-member) messes with the house-spirit.
Or you provoke the small people, the fair folk and they get revenge by ruining you.

There are dozens of variations of those tales but usually it comes down to someone being curious or distrusting and breaking their word and/or the (unwritten) rules with makes the good things go away.

No analysis or anything, I just grew up reading and getting told fairy-tales and legends.

[Dodom]

I can think of the golden egg story, where the farmer guts the hen (in English it's a goose, I think) to get to the source of the gold.
For this particular story, I see it as a warning against greed and ungratefulness: if somebody is giving you something good, don't try to force more out of them than they're willing to give, or you won't be getting even that anymore.
In politics and business it's also used to refer to long term planning: don't sacrifice an asset for an immediate profit if you're going to miss its output in the long run.

[Bohandas]

Interestingly I just discovered that the story of Cupid and Psyche (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cupid_and_Psyche) actually ends with the mortal being forgiven for their curiosity, despite Psyche doing this not once but twice (initially by looking upon Cupid when she wasn't supposed to, and again by pilfering through a package she was supposed to be delivering to Venus)

[Jay R]

It's basic storytelling logic.

I've written some stories myself, and I know that I always want some twist at the end.

The obvious twist at the end of a story based on "you can have anything you want" is to have your own actions cancel it.

[Don nadie]

I also think those stories are about trust, the whole "don't look a gifted horse's teeth" (is this also an expression in English?)

But it also links with the whole issue of human restlessness and capacity to self-destruct. Whoever receives a good gift cannot simply enjoy it till the end of his days: as soon as we have all that should make us happy, we find new reasons to worry, or create them.

[georgie_leech]

I also think those stories are about trust, the whole "don't look a gifted horse's teeth" (is this also an expression in English?)

Pretty much. The English equivalent is 'don't look a gift horse in the mouth,' and since teeth are what you check when you do that...

[halfeye]

That sounds like quantum mechanics. Oh god magic killed physics!
FTFY :smallbiggrin:

[ThinkMinty]

What you're talkin' about is a whole thing, a premise and/or trope in which magical/supernatural things are lacking in ontological inertia (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoOntologicalInertia), which is the tendency of stuff continuing to be stuff. The idea (in short form) is that continued effort is needed to work against the natural order, and that ceasing that effort will make things snap back to what they "ought to" be. Under this principle, if I used a "natural" toaster, toast would remain toast upon the destruction of the toaster, but if I used a "magic" toaster, the destruction of the "magic" toaster or the "magician" who created it, the toast would revert back to soft, untoasted bread.

It's somewhat similar to how babies lack object permanence.

From an extranarrative standpoint, structuring magic this way allows you to restore the status quo when the magician departs or is slain. This can be used to impart various morals depending on the particular storyteller's philosophical bent and flexibility.

[Icewraith]

Pretty much. The English equivalent is 'don't look a gift horse in the mouth,' and since teeth are what you check when you do that...

I always thought this was more of a politeness thing. It's now your horse and you need to take care of it you're going to check the teeth eventually, but immediately checking for problems in front of the giver is extremely rude.

[Grinner]

I always thought this was more of a politeness thing. It's now your horse and you need to take care of it you're going to check the teeth eventually, but immediately checking for problems in front of the giver is extremely rude.

Sorta. The way I've heard it is that you shouldn't be picky about freebies. That is, don't worry about the horse's health, because you're not paying for it. And hey, if it ends up costing too much to care for, you can always just shoot it.