Destroy the Entire Universe

[Frostthehero]

Simple concept. Destroy the entire universe. There are three categories.
1. Core only (I do not expect this to go anywhere, but it cannot hurt to ask)
2. Core + complete series, frostburn, PHBII, and the spell compendium Try to make this low cheese.
3. Screw it. Max cheese (no pun pun), no book limitations.

Have fun!

[Immabozo]

Does making black holes and sending them to the planes and anywhere in the universe count?

[Brova]

Any creature that doesn't need to breath can just wish for an item giving flight and at-will disintegrate. That will eventually get the job done, particularly if you stack simulacrum or ice assassin to create some support.

[Extra Anchovies]

3. Sphere of Annihilation -> Well of Many Worlds to destroy the material plane, as per Elder Evils p. 142. Repeat once for each plane in existence.

[Jormengand]

3. Screw it. Max cheese (no pun pun), no book limitations.

Infinite wish trick. We all know how. Then gate in lots of minions to help do the following:

Wish for a skull talisman of irresistible (KoKPG, +4 meta removes save) Pierce the Veil (KoKPG, +any, +5 SR penetration/level, apply arbitrary number of times) chain (CA, +3 meta affects CL targets, max 20) polymorph any object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm), CL 1,000,000100,000,000. This is a safe wish, even though the item is astronomically powerful. Do the same with blah-blah-metamagic-CL-blah disintegrate. Your exponentially increasing number of allies needs to use these to turn up to 20 celestial objects at once into tiny boxes, and then destroy the tiny boxes. Plane Shifting may be of use here.

[ahenobarbi]

Does making black holes and sending them to the planes and anywhere in the universe count?


Any creature that doesn't need to breath can just wish for an item giving flight and at-will disintegrate. That will eventually get the job done, particularly if you stack simulacrum or ice assassin to create some support.


Infinite wish trick. We all know how. Then gate in lots of minions to help do the following:

Wish for a skull talisman of irresistible (KoKPG, +4 meta removes save) Pierce the Veil (KoKPG, +any, +5 SR penetration/level, apply arbitrary number of times) chain (CA, +3 meta affects CL targets, max 20) polymorph any object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm), CL 1,000,000100,000,000. This is a safe wish, even though the item is astronomically powerful. Do the same with blah-blah-metamagic-CL-blah disintegrate. Your exponentially increasing number of allies needs to use these to turn up to 20 celestial objects at once into tiny boxes, and then destroy the tiny boxes. Plane Shifting may be of use here.

Those do not work. At any point in time (assuming no one is interrupting yer werk) those methods will have destroyed finite (if huge) volume of multiverse. The multiverse has infinite volume (because it has at least one plane of infinite volume (let's say elemental plane of earth)). Therefore at any given point in time almost whole of multiverse (i.e. all multiverse except subset of it of finite volume) exists. So those methods do not destroy multiverse in finite time.


3. Sphere of Annihilation -> Well of Many Worlds to destroy the material plane, as per Elder Evils p. 142. Repeat once for each plane in existence.


This sounds like it might work. Can you share details/ source of that "Well of Many Worlds"?

[Jormengand]

Those do not work. At any point in time (assuming no one is interrupting yer werk) those methods will have destroyed finite (if huge) volume of multiverse. The multiverse has infinite volume (because it has at least one plane of infinite volume (let's say elemental plane of earth)). Therefore at any given point in time almost whole of multiverse (i.e. all multiverse except subset of it of finite volume) exists. So those methods do not destroy multiverse in finite time.

EpOE is essentially one object, so I can grab an infinite-CL PAO-disintegrate combo.

[Brova]

Those do not work. At any point in time (assuming no one is interrupting yer werk) those methods will have destroyed finite (if huge) volume of multiverse. The multiverse has infinite volume (because it has at least one plane of infinite volume (let's say elemental plane of earth)). Therefore at any given point in time almost whole of multiverse (i.e. all multiverse except subset of it of finite volume) exists. So those methods do not destroy multiverse in finite time.

The prompt refers to the universe, not the multiverse. The universe is of finite, if expanding, size. You could, in theory, destroy all of it (or at least, reduce it to a state where no things exist).

[ahenobarbi]

EpOE is essentially one object, so I can grab an infinite-CL PAO-disintegrate combo.

Could you expand EpOE abbreviation. I can not respond properly without knowing what you mean (also: using wish you can get item with arbitrarily-high but finite CL which is different (for purpose of infinite sphere destruction) from infinite-CL level item).


The prompt refers to the universe, not the multiverse. The universe is of finite, if expanding, size. You could, in theory, destroy all of it (or at least, reduce it to a state where no things exist).

That does rely on a cosmological theory (finite-but-expanding-universe) that is not necessarily true (I do not remember if volume of 1st sphere is finite or not) & it does rely on expansion of the finite sphere being slower than expansion of annihilated radius (... that one is rather hard to compare);

[Lateral]

Boom. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?227513-Destroying-the-world-as-we-know-it-a-Handbook) Several of these could theoretically be scaled to destroy the entire universe- Solar tribbling, brown mold expansion, and Iron Heart Surging away the electromagnetic force ("It's preventing me from walking through that wall over there!") come to mind.

[Jormengand]

Iron Heart Surging away the electromagnetic force ("It's preventing me from walking through that wall over there!")

It's not an effect with a duration of one or more rounds, though. Electromagnetic force does not possess a value that defines its duration.

[Immabozo]

Those do not work. At any point in time (assuming no one is interrupting yer werk) those methods will have destroyed finite (if huge) volume of multiverse. The multiverse has infinite volume (because it has at least one plane of infinite volume (let's say elemental plane of earth)). Therefore at any given point in time almost whole of multiverse (i.e. all multiverse except subset of it of finite volume) exists. So those methods do not destroy multiverse in finite time.


The prompt refers to the universe, not the multiverse. The universe is of finite, if expanding, size. You could, in theory, destroy all of it (or at least, reduce it to a state where no things exist).

NI followers making NI black holes and destroying NI sized universe. I see no problem

[Rubik]

It's not an effect with a duration of one or more rounds, though. Electromagnetic force does not possess a value that defines its duration.Is infinity more than six seconds? Infinity is more than six seconds.

Electromagnetism lasts more than six seconds.

If it has to be expressed in rounds, it would say "expressed as one or more rounds."

[ahenobarbi]

NI followers making NI black holes and destroying NI sized universe. I see no problem

N (nigh) in the NI is the problem. You can not cover actually infinite volume with nigh infinite (i.e. finite but arbitrarily high) number of nigh infinite (finite) number of spheres.

[Jormengand]

Is infinity more than six seconds? Infinity is more than six seconds.

Right, but the products of a true creation spell also last more than six seconds, and so does fireball damage. Electromagnetism is duration instantaneous.

[Extra Anchovies]

This sounds like it might work. Can you share details/ source of that "Well of Many Worlds"?

AFAIK the WoMW doesn't appear outside of Elder Evils, specifically the chapter on The Worm That Walks, and even there it isn't given particular statistics. What matters is that putting a Sphere of Annihilation inside a Well of Many Worlds creates "a “black hole,” annihilating everything in existence. If abandoned, it picks up speed and power, drawing the island, the waters, the air and everything else on the Material Plane into its dimensional fissure, erasing all existence in 1d12+6 minutes."

Could you expand EpOE abbreviation. I can not respond properly without knowing what you mean (also: using wish you can get item with arbitrarily-high but finite CL which is different (for purpose of infinite sphere destruction) from infinite-CL level item).

Elemental Plane of Earth (technically should've been EPoE but w/e). I also think it is just as much one object as a pile of sand is one object, i.e. not at all. You'd have to clear out the EPoE by volume.

[Immabozo]

N (nigh) in the NI is the problem. You can not cover actually infinite volume with nigh infinite (i.e. finite but arbitrarily high) number of nigh infinite (finite) number of spheres.

NI = NI = NI. NI followers, NI black holes, NI sized space. Why are we arguing?

[Brova]

Right, but the products of a true creation spell also last more than six seconds, and so does fireball damage. Electromagnetism is duration instantaneous.

Why? Seriously, what evidence at all do you have that it works that way?

[Jormengand]

I also think it is just as much one object as a pile of sand is one object, i.e. not at all. You'd have to clear out the EPoE by volume.

"The Elemental Plane of Earth is a solid place made of rock, soil, and stone. An unwary and unprepared traveler may find himself entombed within this vast solidity of material and have his life crushed into nothingness, his powdered remains a warning to any foolish enough to follow.

Despite its solid, unyielding nature, the Elemental Plane of Earth is varied in its consistency, ranging from relatively soft soil to veins of heavier and more valuable metal." (Much like how a dragon is made of scales, blood, bones and flesh, among other things).


Why? Seriously, what evidence at all do you have that it works that way?

Well, honestly, I would contend that electromagnetism, as far as D&D is concerned, doesn't exist, if it did it wouldn't be an effect, and if it was it wouldn't have a duration, and if it did, it would be instantaneous, because durations other than instantaneous are only conferred upon spells in which "The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic. " Because electromagnetism isn't a spell, it doesn't have a defined duration: there is no value called "Duration" attached to it. Since it's nonmagical, if it is the result of a spell, that spell must be instantaneous.

[Rubik]

Rockburst, cast on the Elemental Plane of Earth.

Destroy the Elemental Plane of Earth, and the Material Plane collapses because the fundamental principle of "earth" no longer exists.

Collapse the Material Plane, and suddenly the rest of the Great Wheel flies apart.

Booyah. Destroy all of reality with a 2nd level spell.

[Extra Anchovies]

Rockburst, cast on the Elemental Plane of Earth.

Destroy the Elemental Plane of Earth, and the Material Plane collapses because the fundamental principle of "earth" no longer exists.

Collapse the Material Plane, and suddenly the rest of the Great Wheel flies apart.

Booyah. Destroy all of reality with a 2nd level spell.

Now that's a weird spell. It causes a stone object to explode, but doesn't actually target a stone object or require for there to be one within the area.

[booitsjwu]

Does "no pun-pun" prohibit gaining wish as a SLA or Su ability (zodar, i'm looking at you...) and then creating a magic item that destroys the universe?

[Shoat]

Guys, I don't think this challenge is easily doable. Is there even anything in d&d that has the potential to truly "destroy" (as in, remove matter&energy from the multiverse)?
And even if you could truly destroy matter/energy, what do you do to destroy space itself? A thoroughly empty universe is still there, it's just.. empty.






As for previous answers:

Using disintegrate on everything in the universe cannot possibly destroy it. Because disintegrate doesn't destroy, just... disintegrate. And if you turn everything in the universe to dust, it just reassembles from the leftover clouds, only for another evil mastermind to come along some billion years later and try again.

Throwing around near-infinite amounts of black holes to absorb everything seems a bit odd aswell. Afterwards we have an ocean of black holes, which will then move closer to each other and [insert really cool physics experiment here] - yeah, no idea what would happen, it'd probably be cool, though. Either way, black holes are not "nothing" (and the stuff they're absorbing isn't removed from the universe, just added to their mass) so the universe isn't even close to destroyed.

And if you rockburst the elemental plane of earth (which, first of all, is not "one singular rock"), it's simply going to be the elemental plane of sand/dust afterwards (rockburst explodes a rock, it doesn't destroy it completely), which probably still is close enough to the concept of "earth" to not take apart the great wheel thingy.

[Inevitability]

AFAIK the WoMW doesn't appear outside of Elder Evils [...]

It does.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#wellofManyWorlds

[ben-zayb]

Checks Epic spellcasting in the SRD...

[Jormengand]

Checks Epic spellcasting in the SRD...

How much does a universe weigh, and where are we going to put it?

[ben-zayb]

How much does a universe weigh, and where are we going to put it?

No idea about the mass, but I was thinking if permanently stopping the flow of time would technically count.

[noob]

Be of size C and have the swallow whole ability and the feat allowing to swallow stuff of your size.
Itemize the multiverse since there is a limit to size C it is a size C item and you can swallow it.
Now since all the matter is at the same place it create an infinitely massive black hole which is probably going to make a lot of fun and unknown physical effects.

[Kurald Galain]

NI = NI = NI.

Nope. Some forms of NI are bigger than other forms of NI. In fact, some forms of infinity are more infinite than other forms of infinity (for example, there are more real numbers than natural numbers). Math! :smallbiggrin:

[Shoat]

Nope. Some forms of NI are bigger than other forms of NI. In fact, some forms of infinity are more infinite than other forms of infinity (for example, there are more real numbers than natural numbers). Math! :smallbiggrin:

Next time you want to make a nice example, go for "there are more real numbers between 0 and 1 alone than there are natural numbers", because that tends to be more impressive for people who haven't heard of that stuff before. :)

[3.5dmgisbible]

How much xp do you get for destroying the material plane (or the entire omniverse)? Lol.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

Does playing the Apocalypse Stone count?

[Immabozo]

Nope. Some forms of NI are bigger than other forms of NI. In fact, some forms of infinity are more infinite than other forms of infinity (for example, there are more real numbers than natural numbers). Math! :smallbiggrin:

First, what are real numbers vs narural numbers?

And then, as far as what you said, true, once there is a value fixed to NI, it can easily have something greater, or smaller. But if there is no value fixed to it, If I can make NI black holes, I can fix that value wherever I decide to stop it.

[Jormengand]

First, what are real numbers vs narural numbers?

Real numbers include 3, 34, 25.23432423, pi, e, and so forth, but not sqrt(-1). Natural numbers include 1, 2, 3, 4, and so forth, but not 3.5 or pi.

The difference is that the natural numbers are countably infinite, and the real numbers aren't. Countably infinite means you can establish a one-to-one correlation with the set of all natural numbers. Or, put simply, if something is countably infinite, you can put them in some kind of order (You can't with all real numbers, because what number comes after 0?). The trouble is, that the number of black holes you can create will always be countably infinite, even if it does become infinite.

[Mato]

Iron Heart Surging away the electromagnetic force ("It's preventing me from walking through that wall over there!") come to mind.
It's not an effect with a duration of one or more rounds, though. Electromagnetic force does not possess a value that defines its duration.
Is infinity more than six seconds? Infinity is more than six seconds.Since infinity isn't a number, no.

Also I tried to find where the electromagnetic force was defined as a condition or effect in RAW but it appears there isn't such a reference. But since you just said the duration of this unlabeled effect is infinity unending, in other words the definition of the word permanent. Which also happens to not measured in rounds either.


First, what are real numbers vs narural numbers?Infinity is a process that can never end and it comes in two kinds. Countably and uncountably.

Comparing the two is simple, you just ask if they match. For example. You can do 1=0.1, 2=0.01, 3=0.001, and repeat it an infinite amount of times, like on the one millionth iteration you'd have 1,000,000=1x-10^6, but where does 0.2 come in? How about 0.02 or 0.357? So the two are not comparable, one is infinity more infinite than the other or "uncountably infinite".

And if you want to jump into the deep end. Say we have a infinite convergence, such as halving the distance between two objects or the destruction of matter in space (even if matter is taken to be infinite), and this process can be repeated an infinite number of times and there should be no end. But attempting to test this in real life with a car and a tree will yield disastrous results.

[Rubik]

How much xp do you get for destroying the material plane (or the entire omniverse)? Lol.All of it.

[Venger]

How much xp do you get for destroying the material plane (or the entire omniverse)? Lol.


All of it.

beat me to it.

unfortunately, no matter how much you get, you can't level up more than once from a single lump of xp.

[Rubik]

unfortunately, no matter how much you get, you can't level up more than once from a single lump of xp.There are ways to level up lots very, very fast, but not from gaining XP in the standard way.

[Immabozo]

Infinity is a process that can never end and it comes in two kinds. Countably and uncountably.

Comparing the two is simple, you just ask if they match. For example. You can do 1=0.1, 2=0.01, 3=0.001, and repeat it an infinite amount of times, like on the one millionth iteration you'd have 1,000,000=1x-10^6, but where does 0.2 come in? How about 0.02 or 0.357? So the two are not comparable, one is infinity more infinite than the other or "uncountably infinite".

And if you want to jump into the deep end. Say we have a infinite convergence, such as halving the distance between two objects or the destruction of matter in space (even if matter is taken to be infinite), and this process can be repeated an infinite number of times and there should be no end. But attempting to test this in real life with a car and a tree will yield disastrous results.

Thank you, this was a good explaination

[khadgar567]

is any one thought about deleting the universes name via truespeek?

[nedz]

is any one thought about deleting the universes name via truespeek?

So what is the truename of Ctrl-Alt-Del ?

[Darkweave31]

So what is the truename of Ctrl-Alt-Del ?

Something like pkjl'shgcvm'nwtpsdxzctvbrw'mplsqwx'zmklvcxlkhgfplw-qwxznm'bvsfhzxplqwxtszhjl'xvmbw'qrtslkrstevepwlq'x zthkjcmw-sdlxpq'mbvwtrf'ghzxkwhrsdc'fvbmzvbcxm'slkdfjghlkd' sptrqw... but I'm a little rusty


Edit: silly me, forgot the apostrophes...

[Jormengand]

is any one thought about deleting the universes name via truespeek?

Unname targets a creature. Plus, the universe doesn't even have a personal true name, because it's not a creature.

[khadgar567]

Unname targets a creature. Plus, the universe doesn't even have a personal true name, because it's not a creature.
I think there was an awaken spell somewere in one of the books
and io used some name to kickstart the creation ( I can guarantee it asmodeus knows the true name of universe) so the problem is how can you learn the true name of universe before every god on every pantheon starts gunning for your head

[Saintheart]

Something like pkjl'shgcvm'nwtpsdxzctvbrw'mplsqwx'zmklvcxlkhgfplw-qwxznm'bvsfhzxplqwxtszhjl'xvmbw'qrtslkrstevepwlq'x zthkjcmw-sdlxpq'mbvwtrf'ghzxkwhrsdc'fvbmzvbcxm'slkdfjghlkd' sptrqw... but I'm a little rusty


Edit: silly me, forgot the apostrophes...

It's gonna be tough hitting all those keys at once.

[Jormengand]

I think there was an awaken spell somewere in one of the books
and io used some name to kickstart the creation ( I can guarantee it asmodeus knows the true name of universe) so the problem is how can you learn the true name of universe before every god on every pantheon starts gunning for your head

Awaken targets a tree or animal, not the universe.

[Forrestfire]

Awaken the World Tree, obviously :smallwink:

[Jormengand]

Awaken the World Tree, obviously :smallwink:

Hmm...

Surprised that plants don't get undead/construct's fort-immunity, but whatever. Big Y does get a will save to stop you awakening it and a fort to stop you unnaming it, but that can be bypassed.

There is very little to stop you awakening and unnaming Yggdrasil. Okay, then.

[Mato]

Thank you, this was a good explainationYour welcome.

And that last deal was just a blurb on how paradoxes, a polite way of saying someone's logic is wrong, are created if you treat something as an absolute without any exceptions.


So what is the truename of Ctrl-Alt-Del ?I tried to post it but ended up having to reopen life from it's last save state. So I guess you don't remember me telling you.

[Jormengand]

paradoxes, a polite way of saying someone's logic is wrong

I prefer "Fallacies". It just has a nice ring to it.

[Kurald Galain]

So what is the truename of Ctrl-Alt-Del ?

B^Uckley...