Using strength for monk AC

[saeval]

Hello everybody, so had a scenario come up where a person wants to be a dragonborn monk, but he wants him to be a bit of a brute. Basically the idea is that he isn't especially limber, and what he lacks in finesse, he muscles through for movements. Player wants to have him all scratched up, saying he basically has harder than your average scales and just takes the blows. Basic story concept is that he was a thug/merc of sorts, and he's trying to embrace a new, less poisonous lifestyle.

Would allowing this Drastically alter monk in any way? They are okay with having a terrible Dexterity save, but basically dont want the hit to AC to be party-damning. I figure since he could already use dexterity as his damage/to hit, why not instead just switch his AC to his strength score... basically the same swap, and keeps a player happy thematically.

I doesn't seem like it would be terribly exploitable, but I'd like to have my eyes opened if that is not the case. His dexterity would more than likely be his dump stat.

[Giant2005]

I can't see any advantage to it, so go ahead and allow it.
I don't really see how Strength could boost his AC though - from what you describe Constitution would seem more appropriate, just like the Barbarian.

[Malifice]

Watch out for Belts of Giant strength.

[saeval]

Yea, I think Con makes more sense as well, just in the, what a stat implies way. but Dex can double down for a monk in a way con can't. I feel since as an attack stat strength and dex are interchangeable for him, its less of a stretch mechanically. I'll be sure to weigh belts of giant strength appropriately.

[djreynolds]

You know he could start off as barbarian and then go monk. His AC would be dex and con based. Depending on your rolls of course, but it does work with SPBI to a degree. Grab three levels of barbarian and go bear totem for resistance. Grab at least 14 in monk for saves, and three more in barbarian or whatever. Bear totem gives you the feel of "hard" dragon scales. Minimal wisdom, say 12, shows why you're so unwilling to wait for the others.

Dumping dex always hurts, its a major save but by 14 levels in monk it won't matter. 14 points in dex and 20 in con will net you an AC of 16 not bad. And with SPBI you'll have like 20/14/16/10/14/8 or just in there by level 20.

[coredump]

Perhaps go a different way. Let him play a barbarian with something like tavern brawler. You could create a different totem animal that let him increase the damage die ala monks..... or something like that. But it would give a good basis, and the rage/damage resistance seems to fit his concept better.

[Malifice]

You know he could start off as barbarian and then go monk.

I second this. It totally mirrors the concept too.

He dumps Cha to 8(9) and Int to 8 and sets Wis at 12. Pumps Str to 15(17), Con to 14, Dex to 14 (in that order). Starts Barbarian (for the HD and AC, bonus damage on str attacks and half damage from rage) for a single level, then moves to Monk for the next 5, before jumping back to barbarian for 2 more.

Sticks with monk for the rest.

At second level he has 22HP, the ability to rage (to reduce damage by half), and gains +2 damage on strength attacks. His AC is 14 (dodge comes online next level, and deflect arrows the level after - then at 4th level Monk he grabs tavern brawler for bonus action grapple attempts and to bring his Str to 18). His damage at 2nd level with (Martial arts) is 1d8+5 from his 'three sectioned dragon rod' (staff) and 1d4+5 with the extra kick when raging. At third he picks up flurry for an extra attack. Proficiency with athletics, advantage on those checks when raging, bonus action grapple attempts and a high strength score, complement the concept well too.

I'd probably slot grappler in there too later on.

[saeval]

Its funny that we didn't think of barbarian for even a second, and it really does seem to fit the character concept. So, one level dip you think for a start? The campaign will start at level one, so I suppose he'd just be a barbarian wielding a quarterstaff two handed for level one. if he is barbarian monk, does that mean he gets dex + con + wis to AC?

(bwhaha, editing this to say, that last sentence is totally me just min-maxing it in my head. If Dex is the dump stat, that'd generally work against his AC bonus) In theory though, if he managed like a +1 bonus to dex, he'd get all three stats added?

[MadBear]

Its funny that we didn't think of barbarian for even a second, and it really does seem to fit the character concept. So, one level dip you think for a start? The campaign will start at level one, so I suppose he'd just be a barbarian wielding a quarterstaff two handed for level one. if he is barbarian monk, does that mean he gets dex + con + wis to AC?

(bwhaha, editing this to say, that last sentence is totally me just min-maxing it in my head. If Dex is the dump stat, that'd generally work against his AC bonus) In theory though, if he managed like a +1 bonus to dex, he'd get all three stats added?

no, he'd get either one or the other. Remember in 5e, the monk/barb AC boosts replace the formula, they don't add to it. So he'd either have 10+Dex+Wis, or he'd have: 10+Con+Wis.

[djreynolds]

Its funny that we didn't think of barbarian for even a second, and it really does seem to fit the character concept. So, one level dip you think for a start? The campaign will start at level one, so I suppose he'd just be a barbarian wielding a quarterstaff two handed for level one. if he is barbarian monk, does that mean he gets dex + con + wis to AC?

(bwhaha, editing this to say, that last sentence is totally me just min-maxing it in my head. If Dex is the dump stat, that'd generally work against his AC bonus) In theory though, if he managed like a +1 bonus to dex, he'd get all three stats added?

Unfortunately, multiclass rules say you get which ever class came first. So if you begin as barbarian you get dex and con only, and not both. But this would give you a better feel for strength based brawler. It sucks but you get only one of the unarmored proficiencies and it must be at first level. You can't even start as a fighter and then get it. But that's the fun of the game.

[PoeticDwarf]

Maybe his AC could be 13+wisdom mod.
You already can use as a monk strenght for attack and damage.

[coredump]

Unfortunately, multiclass rules say you get which ever class came first. So if you begin as barbarian you get dex and con only, and not both. But this would give you a better feel for strength based brawler. It sucks but you get only one of the unarmored proficiencies and it must be at first level. You can't even start as a fighter and then get it. But that's the fun of the game.

DJReynolds brings up a good point.

From the rules, if you start Barb and MC into Monk... you do *not* get the option... you never get the Monk version of Unarmored Defense, you only have the Barb version....
Hmmm......

[saeval]

So if we got back to just switching out dex for another stat... If he ran Barbarian/Monk, would allowing his AC be 10 + con + wis be any worse than allowing str + wis, like I was originally going to allow?

[BladeWing81]

I think theres a little confusion here:
initial Character AC (All characters start with this)= 10 + Dex
Monk Unarmed defense = 10 + Dex + Wis
Barabrian Unarmed defense = 10 + Dex + Con
in all situations Dex is the main source of AC so barbarian is not the solution here, best option is homebrew the fix allow Str or Con to replace Dex for the monk unarmed defense directly just tell your player to not ignore Dex, at least leave 10 on dex to not get disadvantage on dex saving throws.
If you allow Str be careful of Str = X magic items. if he has Wis 16 and then gets the gauntlets of ogre strenth (STR =19) then he'll get AC 17 then on level 4 AC 18 if he gets Wis +2 on his ability score imrpovement. not really game breaking but still a good thing to think about.

[coredump]

I think theres a little confusion here:
initial Character AC (All characters start with this)= 10 + Dex
Monk Unarmed defense = 10 + Dex + Wis
Barabrian Unarmed defense = 10 + Dex + Con
in all situations Dex is the main source of AC so barbarian is not the solution here, best option is homebrew the fix allow Str or Con to replace Dex for the monk unarmed defense directly just tell your player to not ignore Dex, at least leave 10 on dex to not get disadvantage on dex saving throws.
If you allow Str be careful of Str = X magic items. if he has Wis 16 and then gets the gauntlets of ogre strenth (STR =19) then he'll get AC 17 then on level 4 AC 18 if he gets Wis +2 on his ability score imrpovement. not really game breaking but still a good thing to think about.

No confusion, it was recognizing that the OP was asking about Str for AC....but the character is was describing sounded more like using Con for AC.... which does match the Barbarian. Plus, it means he has more HP so he can absorb more damage. Plus, being a Barb he can absorb more damage.
Which exactly matches the PC he was describing in the opening comment.

Barbarian, with high Con, that pumps Con... doesn't have to have *no* dex....maybe a 12...but most of his success doesn't come from avoidance, but rather staying power. Being able to take a hit, over and over.
After racials.... str 16, Con 16, Dex 12.... AC 14 and can take a punch with ease.

[BladeWing81]

No confusion, it was recognizing that the OP was asking about Str for AC....but the character is was describing sounded more like using Con for AC.... which does match the Barbarian. Plus, it means he has more HP so he can absorb more damage. Plus, being a Barb he can absorb more damage.
Which exactly matches the PC he was describing in the opening comment.

Barbarian, with high Con, that pumps Con... doesn't have to have *no* dex....maybe a 12...but most of his success doesn't come from avoidance, but rather staying power. Being able to take a hit, over and over.
After racials.... str 16, Con 16, Dex 12.... AC 14 and can take a punch with ease.

But he want's a monk.

[saeval]

But he want's a monk.
There is much truth to that. he's not entirely against the barbarian/monk scenario, but pure monk would be the preference. delaying level 2/level 5 stuff is rough. I in general enjoy multiclassing, and he would get a bit from barb 1 (or even 2) but that means not getting stats/feats at the same level as everyone else (from the class he wants to be) and major class features get delayed as well. the visual of the barbarian just clubbing people into submission with the quarterstaff, before he grasps his martial arts skills better, does amuse me though.

[djreynolds]

There is much truth to that. he's not entirely against the barbarian/monk scenario, but pure monk would be the preference. delaying level 2/level 5 stuff is rough. I in general enjoy multiclassing, and he would get a bit from barb 1 (or even 2) but that means not getting stats/feats at the same level as everyone else (from the class he wants to be) and major class features get delayed as well. the visual of the barbarian just clubbing people into submission with the quarterstaff, before he grasps his martial arts skills better, does amuse me though.

Its a solution without home-brewing as an option. Also the barbarian totem has class features at 3 and 6, which are sweet, and he could still go 14 in monk or 17, excluding the ASI.

I just find that if your shirtless, you should probably need at high dexterity. To me, dexterity is not just aim and coordination and balance but muscle tone. I don't take my shirt off because of the lack of muscle tone, no one is this game with their shirt off, should lack muscle tone, RAW, I'm not sure what page its on:)

[saeval]

True, it really is the best non homebrew solution, I'll definitely concede that. But as a homebrew option, would using wisdom and con be terrible? It seems like a small adjustment that I'd just have to make sure no big wisdom magic items drop. It'd not give him resistance, but it would give him a large pool of hitpoints...

[DireSickFish]

To answer your original question: I don't think allowing him to swap out Str for dex in monk AC would break the game. He's worse at initiative and better at grappling, not a big deal.

However. It does mess up the theme of dex always being factors into AC and when it isn't you get disadvantage on stealth checks. So we're breaking a general rule with a specific rule. This to me sounds like the perfect opportunity to Homebrew up a new subclass.

Have one (but not the only as it isn't very powerful) ability that he gets for the new subclass to be an AC adjustment to unarmored defense. He can wear armor without it interfering with his monk abilities. His unarmored bonus changes from 10 + Dex + Wis to 10 + Str +Wis. His AC changes to 10 + Proficiency bonus + Wis (which caps higher than 10 + Dex + Wis but is worse at low levels). Something like that and build higher level "strength monk" abilities that are less about being a flippy ninja and more about the manifestation of perfection and power through raw strength.

Granted this is a lot of work.

Or just tell him to suck a lemon.

[Person_Man]

Anything that leads to an AC in the 10 to 20 range is not broken, especially when it requires maxing out 2 ability scores to get to the higher range. Literally every class can get AC 18, most classes can get up to 20 or 21 with a Shield and/or class ability, spells or maxed out Barbarian can get it to 22 (or 24 at level 20), and various other temporary effects (most notably Dodge, Defensive Duelist, and the Shield spell) and/or magic items can get it even higher.

Also, I would not suggest that the player multi-class. Multi-class builds in 5E are almost always weaker then strait builds unless they are being built for a very specific ECL and/or combo.

[djreynolds]

True, it really is the best non homebrew solution, I'll definitely concede that. But as a homebrew option, would using wisdom and con be terrible? It seems like a small adjustment that I'd just have to make sure no big wisdom magic items drop. It'd not give him resistance, but it would give him a large pool of hitpoints...

I think you should do as you see fit.
Who knows, maybe you'll create a new class. Remember sacred fist, or an armored monk.

I think what you have proposed is fair because neither is his attack stat and he's gonna have to work for it. Monk on the other hand is fairly easy to build because dexterity is normally your main attack stat.

I'll find it interesting to see the build, the concept is cool. And for that matter, I think its a justified fix, because as a traditional 5E monk if you don't max out you dexterity you're crazy. At least in 3 & 3.5 there was some justification of having at least a good decent strength score because of damage. But now you can simply dump strength, because you can use acrobatics to avoid shoves and such and use dexterity to hit, damage, and AC.

I think strength and wis is fine and fair.

[BladeWing81]

I think you should do as you see fit.
Who knows, maybe you'll create a new class. Remember sacred fist, or an armored monk.

I think what you have proposed is fair because neither is his attack stat and he's gonna have to work for it. Monk on the other hand is fairly easy to build because dexterity is normally your main attack stat.

I'll find it interesting to see the build, the concept is cool. And for that matter, I think its a justified fix, because as a traditional 5E monk if you don't max out you dexterity you're crazy. At least in 3 & 3.5 there was some justification of having at least a good decent strength score because of damage. But now you can simply dump strength, because you can use acrobatics to avoid shoves and such and use dexterity to hit, damage, and AC.

I think strength and wis is fine and fair.

Agree, It won't break the game but like I said before watch out for the Str = X (belt of X giant strentgh) items or else your monk could go from AC 17 to a AC 19 and 4 attacks of +8hit/+5dmg with grapple.