A quick question about Paladins and Fear

[TheNifty]

Are Paladins immune to the actual emotion fear, or just to spells, effects and the like which cause fear?

[Dhavaer]

They're immune to all fear effects. Emotions aren't a game mechanic, you can't have immunity to them.

[Darth Mario]

Not according to the rules. I guess that would be up to the player and the DM as to whether real fear is a "fear effect" or not.

[johhny-turbo]

Like said, just fear effects.

Though for me I've always thought it better for Paladins to get a big bonus to saving from fear at 2nd level and only become entirely immune at around 10th.

[Person_Man]

I've never known someone to roleplay a Paladin that felt fear. Though presumably, you could. It just doesn't fit into the archetype.

[Emperor Tippy]

I've had people roleplay paladins that are very afraid or fearful but they don't let it stop them from doing whatever they need to do.

[Darth Mario]

I've actually had a friend RP a very effective "coward" paladin. The rest of the party were kick-down-the-door, kill-the-monster-and-take-the-lewt types who rarely used any strategy beyond "don't get in the way of the wizards blasts." The Pally (of Wee Jas, the weirdest thing I had ever heard of, but technically legal) was a very resoned, cautious type, RPed good int and high wis well, and was always carful about the fights he picked with monsters.

"No point in attempting to clense those who will prevent future clensing!"

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I've never known someone to roleplay a Paladin that felt fear.
Depends how you define fear.

Personally, I can't see how a paladin can be effective without a certain type of fear. I mean, why would you fight evil, if you weren't afraid of its effects?

[Everyman]

I believe the spirit of that little ability is that paladins do not suffer the negative effects of fear effects. They can still feel fear, but they don't allow their fears to prevent them from doing what needs to be done.

My interpretation isn't completely RAW, but emotions aren't listed in the SRD. Besides, it isn't like I'm changing the game effects via my reading.

[OzymandiasVolt]

Paladins are immune to fear. That doesn't mean they don't reach conclusions they would otherwise, such as "That dragon could tear me in half. Maybe I should try diplomacy before screaming and charging."

[brian c]

Depends how you define fear.

Personally, I can't see how a paladin can be effective without a certain type of fear. I mean, why would you fight evil, if you weren't afraid of its effects?

Because your god told you to fight them. Paladins might be the most straightforward class, other than barbarians (:thog:Thog kill things because they're there)

[Vodun]

I've seen paladins that have quite alot of personal fear, but are either brave enough to just go ahead anyways or transmute the fear into something a bit more useful in combat, anger. The brave ones are just pretty damn panicky when it comes to certain things, for example, his village of his youth could have been plagued by giant spiders or something, so whenever he sees large arachnids in the the game, the character might act jumpy and disgusted at seeing the things, but that wouldnt stop him from attacking them though.

[Lòkki Gallansbayne]

I like Tarkahn's interpretation. It's not that they aren't afraid, they just don't go running around in a panic or start cowering like a lesser man might when confronted with a fear effect. Instead, their divine resolve allows them to steel themselves and fight on regardless. I suppose that's also what happens when you pass a will save (minus the divine part, then it's just regular resolve), it's just the Pallys get to pass every time out of sheer absolute devotion to doing the work of their god/cause/whatever. Nothing can get them down so long as they have their faith.

After all, Paladins are stereotypically brave, and isn't that what bravery is? Not the inability to feel fear, but the ability not to let fear get you down; to carry on thought the way may be fraught with peril and danger.

Or is that stupidity? I get those two mixed up. :smalltongue:

[Aquillion]

Hmm... if they were really immune to fear, would they be able to fear their own gods? 'cause, well, I can see it now:

God: Paladin, I remove all traces of fear from you. Go out and fight evil!

Paladin: Hey, sure thing, God. But first, now that I'm no longer afraid of you, I have a question... could you create a rock so large that you couldn't move it?

God: <.< >.>

God: (*divine smiting*)

[R4ph]

This thread just gave me a great character idea. Win!

[Lòkki Gallansbayne]

Ah yes, the good old omnipotence paradox. How well would that work in D&D, though? What if the Paladin worshipped a god with, say, creation in his portfolio but nothing about being all-powerfully strong.

God: Paladin, I remove all traces of fear from you. Go out and fight evil!

Paladin: Hey, sure thing, God. But first, now that I'm no longer afraid of you, I have a question... could you create a rock so large that you couldn't move it?

God: :smallannoyed: Yes. It falls, you die.

[Suvarov454]

After all, Paladins are stereotypically brave, and isn't that what bravery is? Not the inability to feel fear, but the ability not to let fear get you down; to carry on thought the way may be fraught with peril and danger.

Or is that stupidity? I get those two mixed up. :smalltongue:

If you live through the experience, you were brave. If you die, you were stupid. :smallbiggrin:

[Latronis]

Ah yes, the good old omnipotence paradox. How well would that work in D&D, though? What if the Paladin worshipped a god with, say, creation in his portfolio but nothing about being all-powerfully strong.

God: Paladin, I remove all traces of fear from you. Go out and fight evil!

Paladin: Hey, sure thing, God. But first, now that I'm no longer afraid of you, I have a question... could you create a rock so large that you couldn't move it?

God: :smallannoyed: Yes. It falls, you die.

WIN :smallbiggrin:

but i'll throw my two coppers in too.

It only grants immunity to fear effects, which i would read as the mechanical effects of becoming overcome with fear. Moving away from mechanics being immune to fear is not going to make an effective champion.

YES i'm level 2 no fear! that great wyrm red dragon needs a good smiting!

[Jayabalard]

I've never known someone to roleplay a Paladin that felt fear. Though presumably, you could. It just doesn't fit into the archetype.I think it fits into the archtype just fine. Paladins are the epitome of courage, so of course they of course feel fear; if they weren't afraid, then doing what they do wouldn't be very courageous, would it? "Courage is the complement of fear. A man who is fearless cannot be courageous. (He is also a fool.)" - it's misquoted in someone's sig as I recall.

mechanically: Fear effects don't work on a paladin.

Roleplaying: You still feel the fear, but your faith and courage are strong enough so that it cannot shake your resolve; there is no hesitation, no weakness, no breaking of your spirit.


Because your god told you to fight them. Paladins might be the most straightforward class, other than barbarians (:thog:Thog kill things because they're there)That would be a mindless obedient warrior, not a paladin...

[Tokiko Mima]

I wonder what would happen if you dominated a Paladin and commanded them to be afraid of you? Would that break the spell? Or give them a saving throw since you're asking them to do something against their nature? :smallbiggrin:

[Renx]

I wonder what would happen if you dominated a Paladin and commanded them to be afraid of you? Would that break the spell? Or give them a saving throw since you're asking them to do something against their nature? :smallbiggrin:

Dominate Person is a separate spell, no fear effect included per se. Also, it would be a definite bonus to the story, the mighty paladin who is forced to know fear for the first time. Any DM worth his salt would go for it, and hang the complaining rules lawyer.

[Tokiko Mima]

How about a suggestion spell, then? Suggest that the Paladin is afraid of everything. :smallbiggrin:

[Jayabalard]

if you used dominate person or suggestion, sure, they would be afraid... but since they're a paladin they wouldn't give in to that fear.

[Snooder]

Interesting side note about Paladins and fear, have any of you read Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion trilogy?

Basically the main character is a Paladin who never feels fear until she has a spell cast on her. The healing to remove the spell also removes her inborn immunity to fear and then she pretty much loses all her Paladin abilities. Not because her god stops granting them, but because now whenever she holds a weapon and is forced to fight, even in a practice bout, she panics and freezes up. Of course she later learns to deal with fear and learns important lessons about the common man who has to deal with being afraid.


Back to the discussion at hand. As far as the suggestion spell goes, I don't think any DM should really be allowed to dictate how a player roleplays a character. The DM can say that the Paladin is now afraid of everything, but that doesn't mean that the Paladin turns into a coward. The player can easily say that his character is a little more cautious than before but keeps steadfast in the faith that his God will protect him.

[Tokiko Mima]

if you used dominate person or suggestion, sure, they would be afraid... but since they're a paladin they wouldn't give in to that fear.

Well, the paradox of this is that the paladin rules doesn't say that they still feel fear and fight through it, they say:


Aura of Courage (Su)
Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects.

This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.

So any form of magical or non-magical fear, explicitly. So using magic to cause fear is something that they are technically immune to, even if it's not in the Necromancy [ Fear ], Enchantment (compulsion) or Illusion (phantasm) subschools.

[MeklorIlavator]

"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain."
-Bene Gesserit saying, Dune by Frank Herbert
I think that this would make an excellent Paladin(or other resolute warrior) refrain. Plus I just like it as a saying. Paladin's aren't unaffected by fear(like in OotS), but instead overcome it.

[ghost_warlock]

"A character immune to fear can’t be intimidated, nor can nonintelligent creatures. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm)"

[Jayabalard]

Well, the paradox of this is that the paladin rules doesn't say that they still feel fear and fight through it, they say:



So any form of magical or non-magical fear, explicitly. So using magic to cause fear is something that they are technically immune to, even if it's not in the Necromancy [ Fear ], Enchantment (compulsion) or Illusion (phantasm) subschools.immune is a game mechanics term; it just means that it has no mechanical effect anymore. There's nothing in that that states that the paladin does not feel fear.

I agree with MeklorIlavator, that Dune saying is a great reference point for a paladin; it gives a nice hint for how a paladin might deal with their fear in a strictly roleplay sense.

[...Eh?]

That would be a mindless obedient warrior, not a paladin...

There's a difference? *shot*

[Murongo]

Courage is not the absence of fear but the ability to overcome it.

Someone probably already said that.

[Devils_Advocate]

The rules don't specifically say that a paladin is immune to all fear, but that seems to be the most straightforward interpretation. It seems that the biggest question is exactly how "immune" works. Is a 3rd+ level paladin immune to fear in the sense the sense that 11th+ level monks are immune to posion, or in the sense that elves are immune to sleep? I.e., is fear just something that doesn't effect a paladin, or is it something that a paladin doesn't ever experience? (Assuming that poison doesn't just cease to exist when it enters a monk's body, and that elves aren't really just sleepwalking but acting exactly as though they were awake. :smalltongue:) Does Aura of Courage just keep a 3rd-level paladin faced with the Tarrasque from immediately wetting herself and running away, or does it prevent her from even feeling afraid in the first place? That's obviously a pretty big difference, though the effects are much the same.

Personally, I favor the interpretation that the paladin's fear simply no longer effects her, but doesn't cease to even exist. Mostly because courage seems easier to roleplay than total fearlessness. And, hey, the ability is called Aura of Courage. As others have pointed out, courage is not the absence of fear; courage just means not yielding to fear.

There's still the matter that, either way, Scaricus, the supreme god of fear, can't scare away a paladin of third level of higher (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/variantfewerabsolutes1.html) (...unless she's in an anti-magic field), but that's a seperate issue.

[Tokiko Mima]

The rules don't specifically say that a paladin is immune to all fear, but that seems to be the most straightforward interpretation. It seems that the biggest question is exactly how "immune" works. Is a 3rd+ level paladin immune to fear in the sense the sense that 11th+ level monks are immune to posion, or in the sense that elves are immune to sleep? I.e., is fear just something that doesn't effect a paladin, or is it something that a paladin doesn't ever experience? (Assuming that poison doesn't just cease to exist when it enters a monk's body, and that elves aren't really just sleepwalking but acting exactly as though they were awake. :smalltongue:) Does Aura of Courage just keep a 3rd-level paladin faced with the Tarrasque from immediately wetting herself and running away, or does it prevent her from even feeling afraid in the first place? That's obviously a pretty big difference, though the effects are much the same.

Personally, I favor the interpretation that the paladin's fear simply no longer effects her, but doesn't cease to even exist. Mostly because courage seems easier to roleplay than total fearlessness. And, hey, the ability is called Aura of Courage. As others have pointed out, courage is not the absence of fear; courage just means not yielding to fear.

There's still the matter that, either way, Scaricus, the supreme god of fear, can't scare away a paladin of third level of higher (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/variantfewerabsolutes1.html) (...unless she's in an anti-magic field), but that's a seperate issue.

Well, unlike Monks immunity to poison or the elven immunity to the spell of sleep, the Aura of Courage is qualified as working against all forms of fear, specifically magical or otherwise. To me that means that whenever fear could affect a Paladin in any way, it just doesn't. This is irrespective of the source, be they a necromancers spell, a brawlers taunt, or the Paladin's own heart. How can you honestly claim to be 'feeling' fear if it doesn't and cannot affect you in the slightest? Is courage really as simple as the supression of fears effects?

People are quoting Dune, but part of that saying means I think is rooted in the struggle not to be afraid, and that fear itself is the the largest threat we face. Is it really courageous for a Paladin to face danger utterly immune to the greatest part of the danger? Isn't a Fighter that faces down the same threat, without total immunity to fear even more courageous than a Paladin would be in the same situation?

[Matthew]

Well, unlike Monks immunity to poison or the elven immunity to the spell of sleep, the Aura of Courage is qualified as working against all forms of fear, specifically magical or otherwise. To me that means that whenever fear could affect a Paladin in any way, it just doesn't. This is irrespective of the source, be they a necromancers spell, a brawlers taunt, or the Paladin's own heart. How can you honestly claim to be 'feeling' fear if it doesn't and cannot affect you in the slightest? Is courage really as simple as the supression of fears effects?
Pretty much, it is. Fear usually prevents action, being able to act whilst still feeling Fear is overcoming fear. However, the Paladin is immune to the game effect Fear:


Fear
Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + ½ fearsome creature’s racial HD + creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. A failed roll usually means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.

Fear Aura (Su)
The use of this ability is a free action. The aura can freeze an opponent (such as a mummy’s despair) or function like the fear spell. Other effects are possible. A fear aura is an area effect. The descriptive text gives the size and kind of area.

Fear Cones (Sp) and Rays (Su)
These effects usually work like the fear spell.

Frightful Presence (Ex)
This special quality makes a creature’s very presence unsettling to foes. It takes effect automatically when the creature performs some sort of dramatic action (such as charging, attacking, or snarling). Opponents within range who witness the action may become frightened or shaken. Actions required to trigger the ability are given in the creature’s descriptive text. The range is usually 30 feet, and the duration is usually 5d6 rounds. This ability affects only opponents with fewer Hit Dice or levels than the creature has. An affected opponent can resist the effects with a successful Will save (DC 10 + ½ frightful creature’s racial HD + frightful creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). An opponent that succeeds on the saving throw is immune to that same creature’s frightful presence for 24 hours.

That's really all there is to it.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, the paradox of this is that the paladin rules doesn't say that they still feel fear and fight through it, they say:
Yeah, see the really big words in the quoted rule segment? That's where it says they feel fear. See the sig. However, no matter what you do short of an antimagic field, that fear will not overcome them and make them take penalties on attacks and so forth. :smalltongue:

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Whoa. That makes paladins way overpowered. For as we know, fear leads to anger. If a paladin's immune to fear, he's thus immune to anger. Anger leads to hate, so a paladin is immune to feeling hatred as well. Hatred leads to suffering, and there's the crazy thing- the paladin is immune to suffering. Since the DM is the lord of all suffering in D&D, the paladin is immune to the DM. The DM controls the universe, and thus the paladin is immune to the universe. Being immune to the universe, the paladin cannot be harmed by anything inside of it. Thus, the paladin is completely and totally invincible thanks to Star Wars.

George Lucas ruins yet something else for me.

[Fishy]

I was looking at something the other day- Are undead paladins immune to turning? A high level cleric's turn attempt just kills you, sure, but does immunity to fear prevent you from cowering or panicking when someone flashes a holy symbol at you?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Turning isn't a Fear Effect, since Undead would be immune to those anyway. If you somehow had an undead Paladin, turning would effect them normally.

The question would be what happens when the Paladin Turns Undead...

[Devils_Advocate]

Isn't a Fighter that faces down the same threat, without total immunity to fear even more courageous than a Paladin would be in the same situation?
You're asking whether someone who does occasionally yield to fear is somehow more courageous than someone who never does? :smallconfused:

Uh, NO? You're basically asking whether a whole lot is more than infinity. It... uh, just isn't. This is no less true when applied to courage than anywhere else.

[Jacob Orlove]

No, he's actually asking whether it's more impressive to accomplish something by overcoming a challenge (fighter, paladins that feel fear), or by doing it without facing a challenge of any kind (paladins that do not even experience fear). Unless someone had a really worthwhile character concept, I'd lean very strongly towards the former interpretation, for just that reason.