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AtlasSniperman
2015-08-22, 05:28 PM
Nations rise and nations fall, many great worlds are filled with civilizations and cultures with different ideals and technology; from the magical elven airships to the horse nomads, every nation holds different things in different regards.
This is a simple little 5 attribute system designed for those who aren't great at creating cultures on their own and need some form of numeric structure behind it to feel they have something realistic. This process gives each culture, civilization or nation(whatever you deem to call them) both a level and 5 attributes. The level represents the group's power compared to other groups and helps determine how far along in the development of technology or ideals the culture may be. The five attributes are; Tech, Arc, Div, Psi and Inc, which are all detailed below.
(Please note, that in using this system you do not HAVE to include Arcane magic, Divine magic, Psionics or Incarnum in your world, where these are noted it is simply a guide for if you do include them)



Tech: The development of tools and machinery to improve the lives of the people. A very low value would likely use individual and simple tools, A moderate value is more likely to have better tools to improve individual tasks. A high value includes tools to make certain tasks at all possible. A very high value completely automates some tasks.

Arc: The tradition of passing cumulative knowledge from generation to generation. A higher value means information can translate over a larger generation gap with smaller changes or misinterpretation. Arc also measures the influence of Arcane magic on the culture and its tools.

A "low" value means the general populace only has access to word of mouth knowledge
A "medium" value indicates that for the general populace learning can be attained through training.
A "high" value represents cultural access to books and libraries.
An Arc attribute in the "very high" range indicates easy access to every piece of collective knowledge in the civilization to all citizens.
However, if Arc has a value of 0, it does not mean that there is no means of passing down information through generations, only that the knowledge of previous techniques and training is only available to the social elite.



Div: Spirituality, faith in a higher power or groups. A higher value means both a more rigid structure and definition of the higher power, and a greater effect that power has on the civilization. Div also measures the influence of Divine magic on the culture and its tools.

A "low" value is best suited to a civilization accepting of a group of beliefs, without endorsing any.
A "medium" value indicates a group of wildly accepted beliefs.
A "high" value is typical of a civilisation with structured and consistent beliefs
A Div attribute in the "very high" range indicates a strict adherance to a single set of beliefs, with the elimination(typically violently) of other beliefs.
However, if Div has a value of 0, it does not mean there is no religious faith, simply that one person's opinion is of no consequence to another.



Psi: The importance of personal development. A higher value means a greater emphasis on an individual's skillset and sense of self-worth. Psi also measures the influence of Psionics on the culture and its tools.

A "low" value is typical of a culture where everyone has a place in the hierarchy and there is no chance of changing status.
A "medium" value is often found in cultures where a civilian may change their social standing through serious effort, even if such are limited to selected professions.
A "high" value allows more room for change in social status through hard work, with centers for learning available to advance ones knowledge in a specific field.
A Psi attribute in the "very high" range indicates a great emphasis on personal development and skillfulness, with social classes(should they exist) being built not on blood but difficulty and detailed level of skills.
However, if Psi has a value of 0, it's not as much a case of no possibility of advancement as it is the lack of interest on the part of the populace.



Inc: The importance of history and tradition. A higher value means a greater emphasis on the opinions and values of the past. Inc also measures the influence of Incarnum on the culture and its tools.

A "low value is typical of a culture wherin people will retry things themselves more often than check if it has been done before.
A "medium" value indicates that the people of the civilization will tend to learn from their past, though are unlikely to hold any special reverence for it.
A "high" value can often be found in civilizations and cultures that value the importance of tradition, with many at this point also practising some level of ancestor worship.
An Inc attribute in the "very high" range indicates a strict adherence to rules and traditions, even if the original reasoning has been long lost.




How do the attributes work?
Simple; each civilizations 'level' is a measure of it's strength compared to others. The sum of all of a civilization's attributes totals out to four times it's level. Any increase in one attribute requires a decrease in another to maintain this balance.
An attribute can be as high as 12, or as low as 0(with the exception of Tech, which has a minimum of 1).

A value of 1-3 is considered 'low',
4-6 is considered 'medium',
7-9 is 'high'
and 10 through 12 is considered 'very high'.

As a note, typical medieval fantasy technology(swords, plate armor, seige weapons and the like) fall in "medium tech".

The purpose of a range of 3 attributes inside each group is for two main reasons:
A difference of 2 points is required for a non neutral alignment in the "advised alignment" notes below.
While two attributes can both be "medium", the populace may place more importance in one than the other, thus requiring a higher value.

A comparison can be made of sorts between the Tech attribute and the history of technology in our world. However this is not set in stone and is simply a guideline.
1 is Stone age tools(civilisation likely relies more on other attributes),
3 is Somewhere around the Egyptian Empire
5 is Typical Medieval fantasy
7 is moving into 15th Century clockwork devices
9 is the Industrial Revolution
11 is WW2
Comparitive numbers in other Attributes may look similar, with 11-12 typically including a civilisation possessing a power similar to nuclear weapons.


Advised alignments?
As an additional point of interest, each of the four "magic" attributes lends itself to a culture of a certain alignment. The higher Arc than Div, the more likely a culture is to be "Good" on the "Good/Evil" axis. The higher Psi than Inc, the more likely a culture is to be "Chaotic" on the "Chaos/Law" axis.
If Arc is greater than Div+1, then the culture is likely to be good.
If Div is greater than Arc+1, then the culture is likely to be evil.
If neither of the above apply, the culture is likely to be neutral.

If Psi is greater than Inc+1, then the culture is likely to be Chaotic.
If Inc is greater than Psi+1, then the culture is likely to be Lawful.
If neither of the above apply, the culture is likely to be neutral.
However these are merely guidelines, and a race's base alignment is more likely to influence cultural alignment than these values. Tech has no influence over alignment, however most D&D cultures have roughly "Tech:5", being the general medieval value.

Can a civilization advance or decline?
Yes, if you want to work out the history of the culture you can move around points as you desire, moving up or down a level requires adding or removing points so that the sum is alwasy correct. This lets you see the change in mentality of an area, perhaps even spawning archaic phrases that don't count in the civilization anymore. A good example would be a civilization where the Div value has grown significantly, which may still have people using the phrase "it's a free country" even if that isn't the case anymore.
A civilization can also collapse, this can occur when you shuffle around numbers and there is a change in one value(with the exception of one point changes) that halves or doubles the attribute very quickly.

What about nations at war?
This system isn't meant to simulate combat between civilizations. However if this is something you really want to try it could work. In most cases the civilization with the highest level will win any particular war. If one side of the war consists of allied civilizations, use the highest level +1 per lower levelled nation. Often a culture's attributes may change as a result of war, pulling more points into a particular attribute as a result of the public's outlook as a result of the war. This is not uncommon, and may be the most common way to shuffle numbers if you choose.

Mith
2015-08-23, 11:21 AM
Is there a cap on level for the Attributes? If so, you might want to decide if it is possible for a Civilization to "max out" in all Attributes. If not, then you should figure out the caps on the Attributes first, then from that devise the formula for the Attribute Points. I would also think that all civilizations gets a Level 0 of 5 Attribute Points (AP) so that it adds to 1 for each Attribute. If you get reduced to -0 in any Attribute, the civilization will soon collapse.

I would think that the level itself doesn't really mean much, since two equal leveled civilizations can look drastically different, and rise to that point at different rates. Instead, I would say that the level defines the limit of what attributes can be, and sort of serves as the rough impression of the power of the civilization in question. The important numbers will still be the Attributes though.

AtlasSniperman
2015-08-23, 04:23 PM
Is there a cap on level for the Attributes? If so, you might want to decide if it is possible for a Civilization to "max out" in all Attributes. If not, then you should figure out the caps on the Attributes first, then from that devise the formula for the Attribute Points. I would also think that all civilizations gets a Level 0 of 5 Attribute Points (AP) so that it adds to 1 for each Attribute. If you get reduced to -0 in any Attribute, the civilization will soon collapse.

I would think that the level itself doesn't really mean much, since two equal leveled civilizations can look drastically different, and rise to that point at different rates. Instead, I would say that the level defines the limit of what attributes can be, and sort of serves as the rough impression of the power of the civilization in question. The important numbers will still be the Attributes though.

Updated with answers to your question Mith as well as things I worked out by actually attempting to use this system(12 civilizations designed right now).

AtlasSniperman
2015-08-30, 05:16 PM
A culture designed with this system.

Kerethar's Volcano elves.
Tech 1, Arc 10, Div 10, Psi 3, Inc 3- level 9

Worshippers of the god Lareth, Master of the molten forge. These elves live within volcanoes, in curved stone citadels molded to the side from cooled magma drawn from the bubbling lakes below them and enchanted with immunity to the fires beneath. To many outsiders these cities appear as enormous wasp nests wrapped upon the inside of a tube. Large structures called libraries contain no books, but do possess a large magical sphere created by a joint effort between the god Lareth and the great council.
Despite appearing to be large blobs of hollowed rock from the outside, the inside of Kerethar cities contains a strict city hierarchy, with the lowest tiers being the highest social classes.
Kerethar elves don't must care about the history of war, only for the improvement of the nations arcane knowledge, and the prevelence of their lords might. It is not unheard of for an elf to spend his whole life practising that that has already been done, attempting to find something someone missed.

SkipSandwich
2015-08-30, 06:15 PM
May I ask what the goal is this system is designed to accomplish?

Have you considered condensing the levels? D20 Future and True20 both include the idea of "Progress Levels" to define the technological growth of a civilization, but those are roughly
PL: 1 Stone Age
PL: 2 Bronze/Iron Age(Hellenistic Greece, Ancient Eygpt)
PL: 3 Middle Ages
PL: 4 European Renaissance
PL: 5 Industrial Age
PL: 6 "Information Age"(Modern Day Earth)
PL: 7 Fusion Age (Near-Future sci-fi)
PL: 8 Gravity Age (most "Hard" science fiction, such as Star Trek)
PL: 9+ "Sufficiently Advanced" (as in "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic")

Under that system, a civilization may have access to higher tier technology, but only as advanced prototypes. Since 9 levels of progress ties neatly into the the 9-tiers of spellcasting/manifesting, we can use this to determine what the demographics of a given civilization are, an Arc: 9 civ for example would have enough level 17+ wizards that they either form the government or can be regularly contracted by the government to undertake projects that better the civ as a whole. Sudden jumps/drops in progress level cause upheaval because suddenly you have new power blocs or vacuums where the average character level of a particular group suddenly goes up or down by a half-dozen levels or more.

AtlasSniperman
2015-08-30, 06:26 PM
May I ask what the goal is this system is designed to accomplish?

Have you considered condensing the levels? D20 Future and True20 both include the idea of "Progress Levels" to define the technological growth of a civilization, but those are roughly
PL: 1 Stone Age
PL: 2 Bronze/Iron Age(Hellenistic Greece, Ancient Eygpt)
PL: 3 Middle Ages
PL: 4 European Renaissance
PL: 5 Industrial Age
PL: 6 "Information Age"(Modern Day Earth)
PL: 7 Fusion Age (Near-Future sci-fi)
PL: 8 Gravity Age (most "Hard" science fiction, such as Star Trek)
PL: 9+ "Sufficiently Advanced" (as in "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic")

Under that system, a civilization may have access to higher tier technology, but only as advanced prototypes. Since 9 levels of progress ties neatly into the the 9-tiers of spellcasting/manifesting, we can use this to determine what the demographics of a given civilization are, an Arc: 9 civ for example would have enough level 17+ wizards that they either form the government or can be regularly contracted by the government to undertake projects that better the civ as a whole. Sudden jumps/drops in progress level cause upheaval because suddenly you have new power blocs or vacuums where the average character level of a particular group suddenly goes up or down by a half-dozen levels or more.

Well the idea is that I'm currently worldbuilding a setting and wanted a way to make nations/civilizations/whateveryouwanttocallthem that are varied and unique. I tend to be a more math oriented person so the first place I went was to attempt to use numbers to measure different aspects of cultural outlook and/or technology.
The Volcano elves example for instance is so reliant on magic that they don't use weapons and armour like other groups as powerful as they are. They are instead restricted to swinging a stick or tossing a rock if it's a dead magic zone.
It's more a method to arrange the numbers for paint by numbers XD Yes I realise it's not for everyone but hopefully it'd help someone.

SkipSandwich
2015-08-30, 07:08 PM
fair enough, and it that respect it seems to do it's job reasonably well, at least for us 'zero-sum' game design minded people who like everything to eventually add up nice and neat(more-or-less). It also reminds me of a project I put on the back burners a while ago, an attempt to re-balance the Leadership Feat by restricting it to NPC classes only, while also creating new Adapt class analogs for Arcane, Psionic and Incarnate NPC's. Well, the last bit would be Akashic since I only have access to the Pathfinder SRD to reference for that particular sub-system. Looking at this system has inspired me to take another crack at that on my next day off.

AtlasSniperman
2015-08-30, 07:36 PM
fair enough, and it that respect it seems to do it's job reasonably well, at least for us 'zero-sum' game design minded people who like everything to eventually add up nice and neat(more-or-less). It also reminds me of a project I put on the back burners a while ago, an attempt to re-balance the Leadership Feat by restricting it to NPC classes only, while also creating new Adapt class analogs for Arcane, Psionic and Incarnate NPC's. Well, the last bit would be Akashic since I only have access to the Pathfinder SRD to reference for that particular sub-system. Looking at this system has inspired me to take another crack at that on my next day off.

Well I'm glad it inspires you and I'm glad that you feel it may work for people other than myself. I have a good number of civ's designed using this so it works well for me XD
I think I remember reading in some book that the DM may allow PC classes to be followers under leadership but at a serious adjustment(like a 1st level wizard is a level 3 follower) so on reading that I always assumed leadership only did work with NPC classes. I may be wrong though.

SkipSandwich
2015-08-30, 09:00 PM
Well I'm glad it inspires you and I'm glad that you feel it may work for people other than myself. I have a good number of civ's designed using this so it works well for me XD
I think I remember reading in some book that the DM may allow PC classes to be followers under leadership but at a serious adjustment(like a 1st level wizard is a level 3 follower) so on reading that I always assumed leadership only did work with NPC classes. I may be wrong though.

Followers are described as usually being lower leveled NPC's and no restriction is given for Cohort class levels bar whatever the DM lets you get away with, my fix is intended to make it clear that both followers and cohorts follow the same rules, your Cohort is just of a higher level so they can accompany you on adventures and not be dead weight.

jqavins
2015-09-01, 12:18 PM
Nations rise and nations fall, many great worlds are filled with civilizations and cultures with different ideals and technology; from the magical elven airships to the horse nomads, every nation holds different things in different regards.
This is a simple little 5 attribute system...
I think I will find this useful, though I'll probably take parts of it, leave others behind, and adapt. Perhaps I'll post when I have something worked out; I'll certainly credit you if I do.

I am puzzled about one aspect of it.

Advised alignments?
As an additional point of interest, each of the four "magic" attributes lends itself to a culture of a certain alignment. The higher Arc than Div, the more likely a culture is to be "Good" on the "Good/Evil" axis. The higher Psi than Inc, the more likely a culture is to be "Chaotic" on the "Chaos/Law" axis.
If Arc is greater than Div+1, then the culture is likely to be good.
If Div is greater than Arc+1, then the culture is likely to be evil.
If neither of the above apply, the culture is likely to be neutral.

If Psi is greater than Inc+1, then the culture is likely to be Chaotic.
If Inc is greater than Psi+1, then the culture is likely to be Lawful.
If neither of the above apply, the culture is likely to be neutral.
I don't understand the logic here. Is the balance of attributes a driver of likely alignment, or an indicator? (Those are functionally the same when you're rolling up a country, but different when explaining why the system works.) What's the reason that the balance among these attributes should have to do with alignment at all? (And in particular, why would Div higher than Arc lead to or indicate an evil inclination; many would assume the opposite [evil mages vs. kindly men of the cloth.]) Not sarcastic; I assume there's a reason, but I don't get it.


A good example would be a civilization where the Div value has grown significantly, which may still have people using the phrase "it's a free country" even if that isn't the case anymore.
Hey, no fair an Aussie taking a dig like that at us Americans! :wink:

AtlasSniperman
2015-09-01, 03:29 PM
I think I will find this useful, though I'll probably take parts of it, leave others behind, and adapt. Perhaps I'll post when I have something worked out; I'll certainly credit you if I do.

Nice to hear



I am puzzled about one aspect of it.

I don't understand the logic here. Is the balance of attributes a driver of likely alignment, or an indicator? (Those are functionally the same when you're rolling up a country, but different when explaining why the system works.) What's the reason that the balance among these attributes should have to do with alignment at all? (And in particular, why would Div higher than Arc lead to or indicate an evil inclination; many would assume the opposite [evil mages vs. kindly men of the cloth.]) Not sarcastic; I assume there's a reason, but I don't get it.

The balance is an indicator. A race or simply your opinion comes first, but if unsure, the numbers can do a well enough job on picking a suitable alignment. You may have a high Psi society that is lawful(which I do with a Hobgoblin one) or a high Div society that is good. Yes I'll get to that now.

The idea behind Arc-Div being Good-Evil is based on historical groups that could be called High Div. Yes 'a' man of the cloth is likely a very nice sweet fellow, but the islamic state is not. No offense is meant to anyone who thinks it should be the other way, and by all means flip it for your personal use, it's simply how I do it.


Hey, no fair an Aussie taking a dig like that at us Americans! :wink:

A playful poke is all :wink:

SkipSandwich
2015-09-01, 04:28 PM
Nice to hear



The balance is an indicator. A race or simply your opinion comes first, but if unsure, the numbers can do a well enough job on picking a suitable alignment. You may have a high Psi society that is lawful(which I do with a Hobgoblin one) or a high Div society that is good. Yes I'll get to that now.

The idea behind Arc-Div being Good-Evil is based on historical groups that could be called High Div. Yes 'a' man of the cloth is likely a very nice sweet fellow, but the islamic state is not. No offense is meant to anyone who thinks it should be the other way, and by all means flip it for your personal use, it's simply how I do it.



A playful poke is all :wink:

From the descriptions of each trait and how they tie in to the different subsystems, It made sense to me as Arc explicitly valued education and the free spread of ideas, whereas Div values loyalty to the party/state/church and its ideas/dogma, regardless of how correct/good/evil those ideas are.

jqavins
2015-09-01, 04:54 PM
OK, I see the point with high Div being more an indicator of likely evil than high Arc. But I still don't get the first part, which was the more basic question of why any of the four should be indicators of likely alignment at all. Oh, well; I don't really need to understand. I'll just use what works for me.