Giving a construct a soul

[Prax4788]

I'm working on a artificer and I need to know if there is anyway to give a construct a soul

and if possible turn it in to a living construct

[noob]

Well you can give your construct some intelligence with awaken construct(level 9 costs 5000 px and needs the brain of an humanoid dead 8 hours ago at most) or you can cast the incarnate construct(level 9 costs 5000 px and needs the heart of an humanoid dead 8 hours ago at most) who turns the construct in a living humanoid(not a living construct) with a lot less powers

[Naez]

Well if it counts as a "Magical Item that you own" you can make it your item familiar. Which will give it free will and intelligence if you consider that a soul. If you really wanna get technical you can search out a creation forge and make your own warforged.

[marphod]

"Awaken" and Awaken Undead don't have the restrictions that Awaken Construct does ("Does not work on construct that are constructs only temporarily"), so Polymorph Any Object into an animal or plant, Awaken, or unintelligent undead, and Awaken Undead, and you're good. Nominally.

Whether that has a soul or not is another question.

Magic Jar could then give it a soul, but that soul is coming from a different body and may not appreciate it.

[Prax4788]

So for what I'm trying it need to be a living construct with a soul

the goal is to 1 make it able to use warforge parts (this one isn't very important )

the other is I want to change bodys with it for a short time (this one is very important)

using magic jar

[Taveena]

Appropriately enough, the Soulfused Construct from Magic of Incarnum is a Construct that has been given a Soul. It's an acquired template, but there are no rules given on exactly how a Construct WOULD acquire it.

[Prax4788]

Appropriately enough, the Soulfused Construct from Magic of Incarnum is a Construct that has been given a Soul. It's an acquired template, but there are no rules given on exactly how a Construct WOULD acquire it.

from what i can tell it looks like i can just choose to make one when creating a construct by adding the cost unless im missing something ?

[hamishspence]

There's nothing in the template to say how much more a "soulfused golem" would cost compared to an ordinary golem, or what the creator prerequisites would be (an Incarnum feat? several levels in one of the 3 classes?).

[Prax4788]

There's nothing in the template to say how much more a "soulfused golem" would cost compared to an ordinary golem, or what the creator prerequisites would be (an Incarnum feat? several levels in one of the 3 classes?).

its possible i misunderstand the rules but the cost of a golem can be broken down by CR right? so add this to the one you want to make flesh golem plus template for example and that should give you a total?


sorry im just trying to understand if this is in fact possible but so far your all being very helpful so thank you

[marphod]

So for what I'm trying it need to be a living construct with a soul

the goal is to 1 make it able to use warforge parts (this one isn't very important )

the other is I want to change bodys with it for a short time (this one is very important)

using magic jar


Create a construct.

Polymorph (Poly Any Object) it into a Warforged Juggernaut. It is now an intelligent construct (although dispel-able).

To swap minds, Magic Jar.

[Inevitability]

Travel through the plane of shadow to Eberron. Cast Legend Lore to learn more about creation forges. Keep using divination spells until you locate one. Then just wrest it from the high level mage/psychopatic warforged general who owns it and go to town.

[Taveena]

its possible i misunderstand the rules but the cost of a golem can be broken down by CR right? so add this to the one you want to make flesh golem plus template for example and that should give you a total?


sorry im just trying to understand if this is in fact possible but so far your all being very helpful so thank you

Again, I could be wrong, but I don't think Construct prices are solely based on CR.

[noob]

Yes for example constructs with some spells cost a lot more because spells are crazily useful.

[Troacctid]

Appropriately enough, the Soulfused Construct from Magic of Incarnum is a Construct that has been given a Soul. It's an acquired template, but there are no rules given on exactly how a Construct WOULD acquire it.

Soulfused Constructs are created when raw incarnum energy bonds with the construct. I'd recommend researching a custom spell to create such a bond. Then bring your construct to the Bastion of Souls (MoI 207), where soulstuff coalesces from the Positive Energy Plane. Pick a soul from a crystalline tree there, and cast your spell to fuse it with your construct. (This means you're taking that soul away from an unborn child somewhere on the Material Plane, so it's probably an evil act.)

You could also try constructing your golem from materials found in an area of Incarnate Earth (MoI 204), which is rich with raw incarnum energy, and see what happens.

[Taveena]

Just THROW YOUR GODDAMN GOLEM INTO THE BASTION OF SOULS
DO IT.
Hard to infuse it with souls more'n that.

[Forrestfire]

Do you want a positive energy BBEG? Because that's how you get a positive energy BBEG.

[noob]

Let me guess.
The player is the big bad evil guy who destroys souls of new born for making a construct?
If the rules for advancement, DV and LA apply to the construct it is never going to gain levels unless he always face odds he could never beat.

[Thurbane]

Would a dominated/thrall/cohort Renegade Mastermaker count?

[Prax4788]

Would a dominated/thrall/cohort Renegade Mastermaker count?

maybe? the goal is to have an effigy that i can take control of threw magic jar

effigy's because of the amount of customization over the form (stacking templates all that jazz)

any method that would let me take control outside of magic jar would work to

i was under the impression that any living construct could use warforged components but this seems to be mistaken so living construct is not needed (this is not an ebberon game but i am playing an artifcer and my DM is letting me make warforged parts is i want )

[noob]

It is written nowhere in magic jar that the target needs to have a soul it is only written that the target soul is put in the jar but if the target have no soul it have no reason to fail.
So you can control your effigy with magic jar without having it sentient.
And so now you can template stack the effigy and apply the same template an unlimited number of times if you want(yes stacking the same template is allowed) and so make an effigy of a 100000000 times loth touched creature(who have 600000000 extra strength).
but making an effigy of whatever you want would be something I ban simply because else there is the crazy plan of doom: the player make an effigy of a barbarian with 32157598563745 barbarian levels and one divine rank with the salient power of resurrecting it have 1hd and so everyone can beat it if they strike first (easy with flight) and it gives exp like a fp 32157598563746 encounter making them gain a level instantly and then it resurrects some days later so the wizard of the team makes one (costs 10000 po approximately) and instruct it to attack his team the next day at X hour now the wizard tells his team there is a construct which might try to attack people in the village of Y and in fact it is true if the team is inside the village of Y since the construct will attack them who are now a part of the village(so no bluff needed maybe) and then the team goes at the village and kill the construct and gains tons of XP(except maybe the wizard).

[Prax4788]

It is written nowhere in magic jar that the target needs to have a soul it is only written that the target soul is put in the jar but if the target have no soul it have no reason to fail.
So you can control your effigy with magic jar without having it sentient.
And so now you can template stack the effigy and apply the same template an unlimited number of times if you want(yes stacking the same template is allowed) and so make an effigy of a 100000000 times loth touched creature(who have 600000000 extra strength).
but making an effigy of whatever you want would be something I ban simply because else there is the crazy plan of doom: the player make an effigy of a barbarian with 32157598563745 barbarian levels and one divine rank with the salient power of resurrecting it have 1hd and so everyone can beat it if they strike first (easy with flight) and it gives exp like a fp 32157598563746 encounter making them gain a level instantly and then it resurrects some days later so the wizard of the team makes one (costs 10000 po approximately) and instruct it to attack his team the next day at X hour now the wizard tells his team there is a construct which might try to attack people in the village of Y and in fact it is true if the team is inside the village of Y since the construct will attack them who are now a part of the village(so no bluff needed maybe) and then the team goes at the village and kill the construct and gains tons of XP(except maybe the wizard).

if you are correct than magic jar will still serve me just fine
i may be able to stack templates of the same kind but i wont i don't care to break the game only make my concept come to life

[unseenmage]

maybe? the goal is to have an effigy that i can take control of threw magic jar

effigy's because of the amount of customization over the form (stacking templates all that jazz)

any method that would let me take control outside of magic jar would work to

i was under the impression that any living construct could use warforged components but this seems to be mistaken so living construct is not needed (this is not an ebberon game but i am playing an artifcer and my DM is letting me make warforged parts is i want )


Okay, so what you need is to be able to affect a Construct minion as though it had a mind and was alive? There is a spell for that in one of the Eberron books. Greater Humanoid Essence turns a Construct into a Humanoid for a certain duration. As it turns out becoming a Humanoid makes it count as a living creature and removes its immunity to mind-affecting.

Also cool is the fact that if you've cast a Permanencied Telepathic Bond on the Construct while it was a Humanoid that telepathic spell does not cease functioning when the Greater Humanoid Essence spell ends and the Construct becomes immune to mind-affecting again.
Why?
Well because if changing type caused spells to cease then the Greater Humanoid Essence spell itself would cease to function as soon as it changed the Construct into a Humanoid.

I am not familiar with Magic Jar shenanigans but I do hope this solves your conundrum. IIRC Magic Jar shenanigans are easier than what I originally researched these spell interactions for.



FYI Trap the Soul (IIRC) traps a soul in a gem. That gem is not a Magic Item and is therefore affected by Animate Object. Stick the gem in a suit of armor, Permanent Animate Object the whole thing and bam! Construct with a soul. For added fun you can then hit the thing with Awaken Construct so that it has a mind.

My question is what happens to the soul in the gem when you Incarnate Construct the animated armor that has the soulgem in it? Would that count as destroying the gem or do we get a humanoid with two souls?



On another note, beware of creating beings with brand new souls en masse in a worlds where divinity is based on how many creatures with souls worship a deity. The divine entities oft don't take kindly to mortals swinging the cosmic balance for fun with their magical engineering projects. :smalleek:

[noob]

If you make your constructs worship equally all the gods it will not make any problem(or if you make them all atheists).
Magic jar is not mind affecting it is only a necromancy spell so constructs are not immune.

[Prax4788]

On another note, beware of creating beings with brand new souls en masse in a worlds where divinity is based on how many creatures with souls worship a deity. The divine entities oft don't take kindly to mortals swinging the cosmic balance for fun with their magical engineering projects. :smalleek:

o your right on that one and i have the kind of DM who would love to use that ageist me

well it sounds like most of my problems are solved for the last one i just wish i could apply a war forged components to it (mainly the wand sheath for when im in its body and maybe a few other cool things )

i remember someone found a loop hole to use war forged stuff on a on a race of living crystals but i don't know how they did it

[unseenmage]

o your right on that one and i have the kind of DM who would love to use that ageist me

well it sounds like most of my problems are solved for the last one i just wish i could apply a war forged components to it (mainly the wand sheath for when im in its body and maybe a few other cool things )

i remember someone found a loop hole to use war forged stuff on a on a race of living crystals but i don't know how they did it

Probably Polymorph.
Though when I asked around about what happens when you turn a Warforged with Embedded components into a Humanoid or turn a Humanoid into a Warforged that you then embed components into and transform back, I found that the embedded component gets changed or becomes inaccessible by RAW.

Are actually looking to inhabit the construct minions via Magic Jar or did you just want to give them orders? Because Permanent Telepathic Bond was a godsend for me.

Also, be aware of the 3.0 Minor Servitor spell from Savage Species. It's just like Animate Objects but the Construct is intelligent, free-willed, and Diplomacy-able.
Awaken Sand from Sandstorm also makes independant constructs. Check out my sig for various sand and sand-like substances that are way cooler to make constructs from than just regular old silica.

For truly ridiculous numbers of minions use spells to make your minions. Even better worse use Magic Traps to make them en masse. Polymorph, Animate Objects, Awaken Sand, Minor Servitor etc can all be built into sequenced Magic Traps to churn out minions like nobody's business.
Heck if Constructs count as Magic Items in your game then Wish will just make them from scratch.

Hitting the free-willed constructs with Greater Humanoid Essence traps then lets you hit them with mind control which will persist after they're constructs again.
Even better, if you can hit the DCs Diplomacy counts as Mind-Affecting at epic skill DCs and non-epic characters can get their Diplomacy that high to take advantage of such.

Getting the Constructs (or anybody) to worship a deity just takes Diplomacy rolls according to (IIRC) Faiths of Eberron.
edit: If Constructs count as Magic Items then the above cheese can be made mobile via the Magic Item combining rules. Is a simple gp cost to combine any two Magic Items and bam, your constructs are also your magic traps and you can Animate Objects the town/city/kingdom/world/universe.

[Prax4788]

Are actually looking to inhabit the construct minions via Magic Jar or did you just want to give them orders? Because Permanent Telepathic Bond was a godsend for me.

.

my plan was to make sure my body was safe inside a chest of backpack the construct carries than take it over for a fantasy mech suit kind of effect


when i thought magic jar wasn't going to work i was going to see about riding it as a mount but i would really like take it over completely

[unseenmage]

my plan was to make sure my body was safe inside a chest of backpack the construct carries than take it over for a fantasy mech suit kind of effect


when i thought magic jar wasn't going to work i was going to see about riding it as a mount but i would really like take it over completely

Oh! For construct mechs you want Astral Constructs, hollowed out Effigies/Elder Eidolons, or the 3rd party DragonMech books.
DragonMech is a mess rules-wise but if you can get through it there are decent mech rules in there somewhere. I suggest using the vehicle piloting rules from Arms and Equipment Guide for them though. And letting the character use combat maneuvers from inside them regardless. Otherwise mech fights turn into ungainly slap-fights.

Edit: Technically there's also the Golem Armors from Pathfinder but they suck something terrible. Some DM fiat would make them work though.
There's also the Summoner from pathfinder who explicitly gets to pilot one version of their summons. IIRC there's even a version that makes Construct summons. Don't quote me on that one though as I'm still learning the PF.

Edit again: An Animated Object suit of armor could seriously work for this though. Just ask the armor to "power down" (or not act of its own accord) and it should function just like a regular suit of armor.
Beware, some folks get really irritated when you point out that animating an object does not make it stop functioning as the object that it is. To those folks you can't tie knots with animated rope and you can't slice bread with animated knives. For them the game runs much smoother if objects are objects and creatures are creatures.

[Prax4788]

Oh! For construct mechs you want Astral Constructs, hollowed out Effigies/Elder Eidolons, or the 3rd party DragonMech books.
DragonMech is a mess rules-wise but if you can get through it there are decent mech rules in there somewhere. I suggest using the vehicle piloting rules from Arms and Equipment Guide for them though. And letting the character use combat maneuvers from inside them regardless. Otherwise mech fights turn into ungainly slap-fights.


any reason i cant just give the construct a good sword and some armor jump inside the safety of his backpack (or something a little safer ) cast magic jar and than start swinging ? i should at least be as ok as any normal melee artificer

[unseenmage]

any reason i cant just give the construct a good sword and some armor jump inside the safety of his backpack (or something a little safer ) cast magic jar and than start swinging ? i should at least be as ok as any normal melee artificer

No reason you couldn't Magic Jar for the win but if its a Mech you were after then Magic Jar just doesn't feel right to me.

[Prax4788]

No reason you couldn't Magic Jar for the win but if its a Mech you were after then Magic Jar just doesn't feel right to me.

well fair enough

i should probably mention i will be playing a halfling in a medium or large construct


i guess if i want this to work i should take proficiency and melee feats for when im inside

[unseenmage]

well fair enough

i should probably mention i will be playing a halfling in a medium or large construct


i guess if i want this to work i should take proficiency and melee feats for when im inside

For a nice safe place to stow your body while you're "piloting" (and if the Construct you inhabit is a Warforged), an Embedded Warforged Component Handy Haversack is much more difficult to use/access for nonwarforged.

I cannot for the life of me remember what book its from but one of the Eberron books has a proto-warforged template. It's supposed to be what the ancient giants used to originally make warforged or something like that. Wish I could remember what book that was in...

[Prax4788]

For a nice safe place to stow your body while you're "piloting" (and if the Construct you inhabit is a Warforged), an Embedded Warforged Component Handy Haversack is much more difficult to use/access for nonwarforged.

I cannot for the life of me remember what book its from but one of the Eberron books has a proto-warforged template. It's supposed to be what the ancient giants used to originally make warforged or something like that. Wish I could remember what book that was in...

if my effigy had a base form that was a warforged would it be able to use warforge parts ? even after the effigy template removes a bunch of its quality's ?

[Psyren]

(This means you're taking that soul away from an unborn child somewhere on the Material Plane, so it's probably an evil act.)

Eh, I don't buy that. You're not harming the soul (unless you design your spell that way), any more than an incarnum user would be committing evil by turning an unborn soul into a sword or shroud. From a soul's perspective, its brief dalliance as a creature, even one with no maximum age, still falls well short of eternity.

And being unborn, it's not yet sapient either; if anything you're giving it a different chance to experience life, not taking anything away.
Making it commit evil would of course be a problem.

[unseenmage]

if my effigy had a base form that was a warforged would it be able to use warforge parts ? even after the effigy template removes a bunch of its quality's ?

Subtracting theq ualities usually means subtracting the qualifications. Which is to say, if it is no longer a Warforged then it doesn't get to use Warforged only stuff.

[Troacctid]

Eh, I don't buy that. You're not harming the soul (unless you design your spell that way), any more than an incarnum user would be committing evil by turning an unborn soul into a sword or shroud. From a soul's perspective, its brief dalliance as a creature, even one with no maximum age, still falls well short of eternity.

And being unborn, it's not yet sapient either; if anything you're giving it a different chance to experience life, not taking anything away.
Making it commit evil would of course be a problem.

The text explicitly says that picking a soul from one of the trees before it ripens and falls off on its own will cause a child somewhere to be born without a soul. And you can't wait for it to ripen either, because as soon as it does, it's immediately whisked away to its intended recipient. So yeah, if you take a soul, there's a mother out there crying over a soulless husk of a baby, and it's your fault.

[Psyren]

The text explicitly says that picking a soul from one of the trees before it ripens and falls off on its own will cause a child somewhere to be born without a soul. And you can't wait for it to ripen either, because as soon as it does, it's immediately whisked away to its intended recipient. So yeah, if you take a soul, there's a mother out there crying over a soulless husk of a baby, and it's your fault.

Then since you're making a custom spell to begin with, make one that doesn't do that. Use a ripe soul instead, they aren't born the instant they ripen.

[Prax4788]

Subtracting theq ualities usually means subtracting the qualifications. Which is to say, if it is no longer a Warforged then it doesn't get to use Warforged only stuff.

uasually yes but effigys keep some of the original quality but your probroly correct in that it is no longer a warforge