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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Vigilante Monastic Tradition [PEACH]



DracoKnight
2015-08-23, 04:37 AM
I've been wanting to make this ever since I watched Netflix's Daredevil in April. I finally got around to it, so here's the Vigilante Monastic Tradition (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B66RprYE6_HHX2VHcm04RHVldUk/view?usp=sharing).

Amnoriath
2015-08-23, 06:43 AM
I've been wanting to make this ever since I watched Netflix's Daredevil in April. I finally got around to it, so here's the Vigilante Monastic Tradition (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B66RprYE6_HHa1owdDQ0Y2Z2LWs/view?usp=sharing).

Even if you excuse the utterly huge 3rd level power creep of Blindsight, not Blindsense, Blindsight out to 60 feet it is really strong. It will be consistently adding 1d8+1d6+2 to each of its attacks and has some major utility while getting a Ranger's ability earlier than the Ranger does.

DracoKnight
2015-08-23, 02:40 PM
Even if you excuse the utterly huge 3rd level power creep of Blindsight, not Blindsense, Blindsight out to 60 feet it is really strong.

Is blidsight really that strong? In my experience, it hasn't been... and if the character were to take Unseeing Eyes, they lose their sight, so outside that 60ft they are blind. It's much less powerful than when I was building the Nothic Player Race and the forum was arguing that I give it Truesight.


It will be consistently adding 1d8+1d6+2 to each of its attacks

The Ranger gets the same damage at a much earlier level. And the Vigilante is only getting that extra d8 once a round.


and has some major utility

Yes. But I thought that the utility I gave them reflected the utility that most Vigilantes/superheroes have in comics, movies, and tv.


while getting a Ranger's ability earlier than the Ranger does.

This is a valid point. I was trying to figure out how to capture something extremely similar, and then I saw that the Ranger has the ability I was looking for, so I figured I would borrow from something already in the game. And you're right, they do get it a whole level earlier. Must be game-breaking. I dunno, maybe it is, but it seemed a lot less powerful than Quivering Palm. What would you suggest to either replace it, or how to nerf it a little to make up for it being a whole level earlier than the Ranger.

Amnoriath
2015-08-23, 04:45 PM
Is blidsight really that strong? In my experience, it hasn't been... and if the character were to take Unseeing Eyes, they lose their sight, so outside that 60ft they are blind. It's much less powerful than when I was building the Nothic Player Race and the forum was arguing that I give it Truesight.



The Ranger gets the same damage at a much earlier level. And the Vigilante is only getting that extra d8 once a round.



Yes. But I thought that the utility I gave them reflected the utility that most Vigilantes/superheroes have in comics, movies, and tv.



This is a valid point. I was trying to figure out how to capture something extremely similar, and then I saw that the Ranger has the ability I was looking for, so I figured I would borrow from something already in the game. And you're right, they do get it a whole level earlier. Must be game-breaking. I dunno, maybe it is, but it seemed a lot less powerful than Quivering Palm. What would you suggest to either replace it, or how to nerf it a little to make up for it being a whole level earlier than the Ranger.

1. Blindsight not only negates invisibility it negates any kind of concealment that isn't considered cover meaning unless there is something solid to hide behind Stealth doesn't work. Yes, I did see that but the problem is just because you can't "see" you can still hear. A monk doesn't utilize big ranged weapons so he only needs the Perception to be aware of something outside of 60 feet, not target it.
2. Wrong, Colossus Slayer only applies to 1 attack a round. Yours applies to 3 if not 4 or 5. Plus your Hunter's Mark is of ridiculously low resource cost in comparison to a Ranger.
3. The base mechanics of the game can do that for you as well. There isn't a class in existence that provides that many spells for 1 level. Instead of being vigilante which is part of a general persona almost any kind of character can pick up you have the opportunity to make the iconic blind monk. Not only is Blindsight at level 3 incredibly powerful for a monk it is a disservice to the fabled archetype to reduce it to sharing it with another ability at a low level.
4. Quivering Palm is powerful but it is bad balance to take namesake features of other base classes and give it to others earlier. Honestly with the Monk base and how ki points recover wouldn't this outclass a Ranger in all things except Survival?

DracoKnight
2015-08-23, 05:20 PM
1. Blindsight not only negates invisibility it negates any kind of concealment that isn't considered cover meaning unless there is something solid to hide behind Stealth doesn't work. Yes, I did see that but the problem is just because you can't "see" you can still hear. A monk doesn't utilize big ranged weapons so he only needs the Perception to be aware of something outside of 60 feet, not target it. .... Instead of being vigilante which is part of a general persona almost any kind of character can pick up you have the opportunity to make the iconic blind monk. Not only is Blindsight at level 3 incredibly powerful for a monk it is a disservice to the fabled archetype to reduce it to sharing it with another ability at a low level.

Blindsight doesn't allow you to see invisible creatures. That's Truesight. Blindsight is literally just that - seeing without eyes.

You do have the opportunity to play the iconic blind monk, and I don't feel that giving them a fighting style at the same level detracts from the ability to create a character of that archetype.


2. Wrong, Colossus Slayer only applies to 1 attack a round. Yours applies to 3 if not 4 or 5. Plus your Hunter's Mark is of ridiculously low resource cost in comparison to a Ranger.

The Vigilante only gets it once per round as well. :P I'll up the cost of hunter's mark.


3. The base mechanics of the game can do that for you as well. There isn't a class in existence that provides that many spells for 1 level.

I'll trim back the spells a bit.


4. Quivering Palm is powerful but it is bad balance to take namesake features of other base classes and give it to others earlier. Honestly with the Monk base and how ki points recover wouldn't this outclass a Ranger in all things except Survival?

Okay, I guess I see your point. But what would you replace it with?

DracoKnight
2015-08-23, 05:23 PM
Updated the spells and Ki costs in the OP link.

Amnoriath
2015-08-23, 05:36 PM
Blindsight doesn't allow you to see invisible creatures. That's Truesight. Blindsight is literally just that - seeing without eyes.

You do have the opportunity to play the iconic blind monk, and I don't feel that giving them a fighting style at the same level detracts from the ability to create a character of that archetype.



The Vigilante only gets it once per round as well. :P I'll up the cost of hunter's mark.



I'll trim back the spells a bit.



Okay, I guess I see your point. But what would you replace it with?
1. Yes it does because invisibility doesn't do anything against any of the other senses in which Blindsight is derived from. Truesight allows you to see through illusions even if they have have multiple sensory components.
2. Yes, now that you have changed it, but now you have the issue of a 3rd level ability at level 11.
3. Again, a vigilante is not at all beholden to a monk. A monk subclass should be something in which the arts of the monk can fulfill. Which is why I suggest a Blind Monk archetype. If you want to play Daredevil a Variant Human alone can give you 4 skill proficiencies.

DracoKnight
2015-08-23, 05:55 PM
1. Yes it does because invisibility doesn't do anything against any of the other senses in which Blindsight is derived from. Truesight allows you to see through illusions even if they have have multiple sensory components.

Truesight specifies that you can see invisible creatures.



Truesight
A creature with truesight can, out to a specific range, see in normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceive the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic. Furthermore, the creature can see into the Ethereal Plane.

Blindsight is seeing without eyes.



Blindsight
A creature with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius. Creatures without eyes, such as oozes, and creatures with echolocation or heightened senses, such as bats and true dragons, have this sense.

Truesight, not blindsight, allows you to see invisible creatures.


2. Yes, now that you have changed it, but now you have the issue of a 3rd level ability at level 11.

On top of everything else the monk gets, I'm not worried. Maybe give it to their regular attacks, not their BA attack or Flurry of Blows?


3. Again, a vigilante is not at all beholden to a monk. A monk subclass should be something in which the arts of the monk can fulfill. Which is why I suggest a Blind Monk archetype. If you want to play Daredevil a Variant Human alone can give you 4 skill proficiencies.

I guess I forgot to explain this:

I set out to make a Vigilante Class, but just about everything that I was going to give them already existed within the Monk, so rather than create an entire new class, I made it as a subclass for the monk. It require the base class to be refluffed, or for you to call it the "Blind Monk" if you want to play it as a monk. But this is why I put it in the Monk Class, not because I thought it fit mechanically within the monk, but because everything that I was going to give the Vigilante was already there.

Amnoriath
2015-08-23, 06:29 PM
Truesight specifies that you can see invisible creatures.



Blindsight is seeing without eyes.



Truesight, not blindsight, allows you to see invisible creatures.



On top of everything else the monk gets, I'm not worried. Maybe give it to their regular attacks, not their BA attack or Flurry of Blows?



I guess I forgot to explain this:

I set out to make a Vigilante Class, but just about everything that I was going to give them already existed within the Monk, so rather than create an entire new class, I made it as a subclass for the monk. It require the base class to be refluffed, or for you to call it the "Blind Monk" if you want to play it as a monk. But this is why I put it in the Monk Class, not because I thought it fit mechanically within the monk, but because everything that I was going to give the Vigilante was already there.

1. Yes, but what does being Invisible mean?
"• An invisible creature is impossible to see without the
aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of
hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature’s
location can be detected by any noise it makes
or any tracks it leaves.
• Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage,
and the creature’s attack rolls have advantage."(PHB, 291)
So it is impossible to see them normally but they can be detected by some other normal sense or special sense. Blindsight is sight that is formed from other senses such as sound, smell, touch..etc. As such it is entirely reasonable as to why Blindsight negates this condition.
2. In general the ability gives off a sort of bloodlust that I don't identify with Daredevil. Hunter's Mark as it is gives better flavor towards it.
3. But Daredevil is an entire character, giving it out like this means that others can use it to not be Daredevil. Again if you or others want to be Daredevil everything else except a Blind Monk archetype is there.

DracoKnight
2015-08-23, 06:56 PM
1. Yes, but what does being Invisible mean?
"• An invisible creature is impossible to see without the
aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of
hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature’s
location can be detected by any noise it makes
or any tracks it leaves.
• Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage,
and the creature’s attack rolls have advantage."(PHB, 291)
So it is impossible to see them normally but they can be detected by some other normal sense or special sense. Blindsight is sight that is formed from other senses such as sound, smell, touch..etc. As such it is entirely reasonable as to why Blindsight negates this condition.

I know what being invisible for the purposes of mechanics means, however, only Truesight says that you can see invisible creatures. And as many people on this forum and in my home group have said: unless a rule says you can do something, you can't do it. Blindsight does not say that the creature can see things that are invisible, truesight does.


2. In general the ability gives off a sort of bloodlust that I don't identify with Daredevil. Hunter's Mark as it is gives better flavor towards it.

How do you not identify bloodlust with Daredevil? He's known throughout the comics for killing rapists and murderers, delivering "justice" when the law fails to do so.


3. But Daredevil is an entire character, giving it out like this means that others can use it to not be Daredevil. Again if you or others want to be Daredevil everything else except a Blind Monk archetype is there.

I didn't set out to build a Blind Monk archetype, though. I set out to mechanically build a character type that I happen to find interesting. If you could please evaluate what I have instead of insisting that I should build a blind monk archetype, that would be great. Maybe you should build the blind monk, if you want it so much, and you obviously see a need for it :D

GandalfTheWhite
2015-08-23, 08:32 PM
Even if you excuse the utterly huge 3rd level power creep of Blindsight, not Blindsense, Blindsight out to 60 feet it is really strong.


1. Blindsight not only negates invisibility it negates any kind of concealment that isn't considered cover meaning unless there is something solid to hide behind Stealth doesn't work. Yes, I did see that but the problem is just because you can't "see" you can still hear. A monk doesn't utilize big ranged weapons so he only needs the Perception to be aware of something outside of 60 feet, not target it.
3. The base mechanics of the game can do that for you as well. There isn't a class in existence that provides that many spells for 1 level. Instead of being vigilante which is part of a general persona almost any kind of character can pick up you have the opportunity to make the iconic blind monk. Not only is Blindsight at level 3 incredibly powerful for a monk it is a disservice to the fabled archetype to reduce it to sharing it with another ability at a low level.


1. Yes it does because invisibility doesn't do anything against any of the other senses in which Blindsight is derived from. Truesight allows you to see through illusions even if they have have multiple sensory components.


1. Yes, but what does being Invisible mean?
"• An invisible creature is impossible to see without the
aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of
hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature’s
location can be detected by any noise it makes
or any tracks it leaves.
• Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage,
and the creature’s attack rolls have advantage."(PHB, 291)
So it is impossible to see them normally but they can be detected by some other normal sense or special sense. Blindsight is sight that is formed from other senses such as sound, smell, touch..etc. As such it is entirely reasonable as to why Blindsight negates this condition.

I'm sorry to say this, but RAW, you are wrong about Blindsight being able to see invisible things. It is the ability to perceive your surroundings without possessing sight. Truesight is the only sense that RAW allows you to see the invisible.

Your arguments for not giving the Vigilante blindsight make no sense, ESPECIALLY when you turn around and say that DracoKnight should focus on making a Blind Monk Archetype, rather than what he has made. Let's PEACH what's here, instead of telling the poster that they're not working on the right project. Now, you could ask them to make a Blind Monk, but for now let's PEACH the Vigilante.

3rd Level: Optional Blindsight and a Fighting Style. Blindsight doesn't necessarily give you any mechanical advantages, unless your DM cares about light (most DMs I've encountered don't actually give a damn). Unseeing Eyes falls under the "Ribbon Abilities" that WotC talks about in the Waterborne Adventures Unearthed Arcana. And you're getting a Fighting Style a level later than those who get a Fighting Style "late." This is fine.

6th Level: You're getting 2 1st-level spells (hunter's mark and shield) for 2 Ki points apiece. This is fine. Especially since in the PHB the Shadow Monk is getting 2nd-level spells for 2 Ki points. You're also getting 2 2nd-level spells for 3 Ki points (read what I just said about the 2nd-level spells of the Shadow Monk) (pass without trace and see invisibility), this is also fine; you can leave it as is. Giving them Shillelagh is fine too.

11th Level: This is fine. It's already in the game, and you adjusted it to fit the level you get it at. You're not going to step on the Ranger's toes here.

17th Level: This does step on the Ranger's toes a little bit, but thematically, it fits with the character you were setting out to make. I would say that instead of gaining the Feral Senses feature, your Blindsight gets upgraded to Truesight. This way you're not stepping on the Ranger's toes.

Amnoriath
2015-08-23, 08:39 PM
I know what being invisible for the purposes of mechanics means, however, only Truesight says that you can see invisible creatures. And as many people on this forum and in my home group have said: unless a rule says you can do something, you can't do it. Blindsight does not say that the creature can see things that are invisible, truesight does.



How do you not identify bloodlust with Daredevil? He's known throughout the comics for killing rapists and murderers, delivering "justice" when the law fails to do so.



I didn't set out to build a Blind Monk archetype, though. I set out to mechanically build a character type that I happen to find interesting. If you could please evaluate what I have instead of insisting that I should build a blind monk archetype, that would be great. Maybe you should build the blind monk, if you want it so much, and you obviously see a need for it :D
1. Truesight needs that qualification because not all means to become invisible are illusions. Blindsight though uses senses in which invisibility does not hinder. As such logically invisibility doesn't apply otherwise doing so stretches the intentions of invisibility.
2. Bloodlust refers to a sadistic hunger for maiming others. There is a difference between that and carrying out justice by any means necessary.
3. Ultimately it is a multiclass subclass that doesn't get many unique things other than what I believe is overpowered. If you change some of the middle features I think you can get away with Primal Sense one level earlier. In general you are wanting to give everything you want for to it rather than letting the game do it for you.

GandalfTheWhite
2015-08-23, 09:00 PM
1. Truesight needs that qualification because not all means to become invisible are illusions. Blindsight though uses senses in which invisibility does not hinder. As such logically invisibility doesn't apply otherwise doing so stretches the intentions of invisibility.

Because D&D is a logic/realism simulator. This would be an interesting thing to ask WotC for Sage Advice.


2. Bloodlust refers to a sadistic hunger for maiming others. There is a difference between that and carrying out justice by any means necessary.

This is true - but justice doesn't necessarily equate the death sentence. Except that in medieval times the death penalty was justice for almost everything. But you're enacting it outside the law, so I would argue that this could fall under bloodlust. You're feeling the urge to kill someone because the law failed to punish them. You're likely not playing a lawful character here.


3. Ultimately it is a multiclass subclass that doesn't get many unique things other than what I believe is overpowered. If you change some of the middle features I think you can get away with Primal Sense one level earlier. In general you are wanting to give everything you want for to it rather than letting the game do it for you.

It's kind of impossible to create what DracoKnight wants to without homebrewing. And it's usually better (for balances' sake) to borrow from things already within the game.

That said: DracoKnight, I would change the 17th level feature to they gain Truesight.

Amnoriath
2015-08-23, 09:29 PM
Because D&D is a logic/realism simulator. This would be an interesting thing to ask WotC for Sage Advice.



This is true - but justice doesn't necessarily equate the death sentence. Except that in medieval times the death penalty was justice for almost everything. But you're enacting it outside the law, so I would argue that this could fall under bloodlust. You're feeling the urge to kill someone because the law failed to punish them. You're likely not playing a lawful character here.



It's kind of impossible to create what DracoKnight wants to without homebrewing. And it's usually better (for balances' sake) to borrow from things already within the game.

That said: DracoKnight, I would change the 17th level feature to they gain Truesight.

1. It isn't about simulation it is about consistency and use of reason in situations not openly detailed. This edition openly encourages it to diversify the small base of things they detailed.
2. Which is all the more reason why its not bloodlust. In this edition death doesn't really happen at 0. It takes 3 rolls with a chance of failing of 45%. So attacking to drop them is just unconscious to allow them to be caught or moved..etc. There are many ways to take the lawful alignment and often the Lawful Evil alignment is classic for vengeance based play.
3. That isn't what I am saying. What I am saying is he as all this versatility and options in which could be simulated by proficiencies after all Daredevil is human. Currently it is a multi-class character that differs little from an actual multiclass Monk/Ranger. Rather than saying you can be an urban Ranger in a Monk there are ways to give those abilities outside the Monk leaving to have unique abilities that are different than a Ranger.

Amnoriath
2015-08-23, 10:36 PM
I'm sorry to say this, but RAW, you are wrong about Blindsight being able to see invisible things. It is the ability to perceive your surroundings without possessing sight. Truesight is the only sense that RAW allows you to see the invisible.

Your arguments for not giving the Vigilante blindsight make no sense, ESPECIALLY when you turn around and say that DracoKnight should focus on making a Blind Monk Archetype, rather than what he has made. Let's PEACH what's here, instead of telling the poster that they're not working on the right project. Now, you could ask them to make a Blind Monk, but for now let's PEACH the Vigilante.


It makes perfect sense if it is too powerful as written. Besides you are wrong. Sage advice already agrees with me. http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/14/blindsight-against-cover/

DracoKnight
2015-08-23, 11:42 PM
Amnoriath, I updated the link in the OP, I understand you points about it having effectively been a Ranger/Monk multiclass, hopefully the changes differ it more. If you would please look over the changes I've made, I would much appreciate it.

GandalfTheWhite
2015-08-23, 11:44 PM
1. It isn't about simulation it is about consistency and use of reason in situations not openly detailed. This edition openly encourages it to diversify the small base of things they detailed.

I was being sarcastic. Blue means sarcasm, Sherlock.

DracoKnight
2015-08-23, 11:45 PM
I was being sarcastic. Blue means sarcasm, Sherlock.

Don't be an ass, Gandalf.

Amnoriath
2015-08-23, 11:49 PM
I was being sarcastic. Blue means sarcasm, Sherlock.

Yes, in which I took as you being derisive of what I said.:smallannoyed:

Amnoriath
2015-08-23, 11:54 PM
Amnoriath, I updated the link in the OP, I understand you points about it having effectively been a Ranger/Monk multiclass, hopefully the changes differ it more. If you would please look over the changes I've made, I would much appreciate it.

It is better, but Thirst for Justice needs a duration. Otherwise everything looks good.

DracoKnight
2015-08-24, 12:01 AM
It is better, but Thirst for Justice needs a duration. Otherwise everything looks good.

Alrighty, updated Thirst for Justice, giving it a duration.

DracoKnight
2015-08-25, 02:59 PM
Are there any more thoughts or concerns?