What tier is a fully optimised twf rogue compared to other classes?

[Shnigda]

As the title. But rogue is optimised and other classes are not.
Also, what are the key points that would raise or lower its tier (items, feats, prcs etc)
Perhaps tier is the wrong word - I mean how competitive is it compared to other classes?

EDIT: Clarification of question

[The Insanity]

Same tier it always is. Optimization doesn't change a class's tier.

[Brova]

A properly optimized Rogue has the DPS to kill just about anything of it's level in one or two rounds. That puts it at the "Rogue Balance Point" on the Same Game Test (dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:The_Same_Game_Test). There are two basic TWF Rogue builds. One is a melee build with a level of Barbarian for pounce, and a bunch of melee attacks. The other is a ranged build with flasks. The basic idea is to get a bunch of attacks at a reasonably good attack bonus, then redmist people in one round. Be sure to pick up wands of gravestrike and friends, as they will allow you to deal with most of the stuff that's normally immune to you.

[AvatarVecna]

Assuming that somehow, with the many many options available in 3.5, we got a rogue build that was "fully" optimized for TWF, that build would be capable of getting sneak attack on every attack every round, hitting with virtually every attack against virtually any opponent, and getting past SA blockers like type and/or fortification. Let's assume that they have enough combined resources to reliably one-round-kill any individual enemy, not taking pre-battle defensive buffs into account. Ultimately, the rogue is a glass cannon with a lot of skill points (although not enough to be super-good at too much). A rogue optimizing both TWF and skills can be a decent skillmonkey in one general category (B&E, social manipulation, textbook, etc).

A fully optimized skillmonkey rogue with perfect TWF style would be...high T4, at most. It's pretty perfectly good at killing things, and it's got a field of skills where it's pretty good, but outside the two admittedly wide fields, it's not got much to do. If it's a B&E expert, it won't be of much help during social manipulations, unless killing people would solve the issue. The rogue doesn't get enough skill points to be good at more than one broad field; the only way this rogue can really break into T3 (and low T3 at that) is to focus on Abuse Magic Device.

If you're wanting a highly capable skillmonkey with great martial prowess, a well-optimized Swift Hunter build will work just as well with fewer resources invested.

[(Un)Inspired]

What does "fully" optimized mean? I'm guessing it's a build that actually contains no rogue levels and nearly uses the term "rogue" to identify the build's mission statement.

It's probably something like StP Erudite 20 that has PAO'd into a creature with racial SA and gets TWF from Heroics and those feat granting gloves.

Sooooo... I guess I'd say a fully optimized TWF rogue is a serious powerhouse even though it's wasting some of its tremendous power on a gimmick.

[SinsI]

Like every other class with UMD as a class skill, optimized rogue is tier 1.

[Extra Anchovies]

Like every other class with UMD as a class skill, optimized rogue is tier 1.

It's all about those partially charged wands, amirite?

Without the ability to create their own magic items, I wouldn't put them up there. Artificer gets to be T1 because they can make their own items, they're darn good at it, and they can make spell-effect items two levels before other characters are capable of actually casting those spells.

[Brova]

@Abuse Magic Device debate: I think it's dishonest to claim abuse magic device as being equivalent to casting spells, but it's also unfair to say it shouldn't be counted. It is a thing the Rogue gets, and spells like wraithstrike or gravestrike help the Rogue solve encounters.


What does "fully" optimized mean? I'm guessing it's a build that actually contains no rogue levels and nearly uses the term "rogue" to identify the build's mission statement.

It's probably something like StP Erudite 20 that has PAO'd into a creature with racial SA and gets TWF from Heroics and those feat granting gloves.

Sooooo... I guess I'd say a fully optimized TWF rogue is a serious powerhouse even though it's wasting some of its tremendous power on a gimmick.

Don't be this guy. If you're allowing "fully optimized" to mean that, then there is one optimal build: the guy who wished for a ring of omnipotence.

[AvatarVecna]

@Abuse Magic Device debate: I think it's dishonest to claim abuse magic device as being equivalent to casting spells, but it's also unfair to say it shouldn't be counted. It is a thing the Rogue gets, and spells like wraithstrike or gravestrike help the Rogue solve encounters.

Seconded. Proper UMD optimization can make a rogue roughly the equivalent of a non-high-op Bard, but it still requires an expenditure or resources, so it's ultimately not as good as built-in spellcasting.

[Bortasz]

As the title. But rogue is optimised and other classes are not.
Also, what are the key points that would raise or lower its tier (items, feats, prcs etc)
Perhaps tier is the wrong word - I mean how competitive is it compared to other classes?

EDIT: Clarification of question

What other classes are in the team?

[Ssalarn]

Tier assumes optimization, so "fully optimized" won't change the tier unless the optimization involves multiclass or PrC options that are inherently of a higher tier.

You're looking at the high 4 to low 3 range.

[emeraldstreak]

Seconded. Proper UMD optimization can make a rogue roughly the equivalent of a non-high-op Bard, but it still requires an expenditure or resources, so it's ultimately not as good as built-in spellcasting.

Irrelevant, as ECL treasure vastly overshadows UMD expenditures.

Back to the topic, a fully optimized twf rogue would be PunPun two-weapon fighting because why not.

[Shnigda]

What other classes are in the team?

Other characters are Druid 4/Bard 3, Paladin 6, Wizard 5 (item creation), and Cleric 5. None are particularly optimised to my knowledge. (Wizard could be, but with item creation feats, Is it actually optimisation?)

[Brova]

(Wizard could be, but with item creation feats, Is it actually optimisation?)

Item creation feats are pretty reasonable. WBL buys pretty heavily into the idea that money = power, and item creation feats are a lot like having twice as much money. Also custom items are sweet.

[Dienekes]

Same tier it always is. Optimization doesn't change a class's tier.

Huh?

From this link (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=1002.0)


Also note that with enough optimization, it's generally possible to go up a tier, and if played poorly you can easily drop a few tiers, but this is a general averaging, assuming that everyone in the party is playing with roughly the same skill and optimization level. As a rule, parties function best when everyone in the party is within 2 Tiers of each other (so a party that's all Tier 2-4 is generally fine, and so is a party that's all Tier 3-5, but a party that has Tier 1 and Tier 5s in it may have issues).

For a player using Rogue as a base going all out abusing potion throwing and UMD I can see them probably breaking into a high Tier 3 to Tier 2. But if you're forcing them to specifically be a melee two-weapon fighter, probably nothing higher than a low Tier 3.

[AvatarVecna]

Irrelevant, as ECL treasure vastly overshadows UMD expenditures.

Which is resources that can't be spent on other things; a build that needs wands of grave/golemstrike to function (rogue) has fewer overall resources to work with than a build that doesn't (Swift Hunter). And spellcasting via class features is always better than spellcasting via items.

[EugeneVoid]

High Tier 4, Mid-Tier 3 maybe. Maybe even high tier 3 with extreme optimization. A Rogue 20 really doesn't have much from her class features that lend to high tier.

By the magical item argument, any class can be high tier...

How could rogue reach tier 2? One is assuming dual-wielding wands, effectively becoming a Sorcerer.

I doubt OP's rogue is even close to high Tier 4 as twf is notoriously weak when improperly optimized.

There are few classes that can really boost their tier through heavy optimization.

I think Fighter is one. OldTrees (I think) has made some I'd slot into tier 3. Warlock is debatable with its item crafting class features. Paladin is another. Bard can probably reach tier 2 with some optimization.

[Bortasz]

Other characters are Druid 4/Bard 3, Paladin 6, Wizard 5 (item creation), and Cleric 5. None are particularly optimised to my knowledge. (Wizard could be, but with item creation feats, Is it actually optimisation?)

Eee? My reaction to your team. Don't worry about tiers with this squad.
Druid/Bard is MAD Paladin is useless Wizard waste time/money/exp on crafting items instead of buying/stealing them.
Cleric maybe...

If you optimize you rogue you are good damage dealer/scout should have many different skills that will help you. You will be useful. And tiers measure usefulness.

[Brova]

A Rogue 20 really doesn't have much from her class features that lend to high tier.

I disagree with that. A Rogue gets a big pile of damage from sneak attack. Add something to get multiple attacks (i.e. TWF, various obscure weapons, Warshaper dip on a Changeling build), something to turn those into touch attacks (i.e. flasks, wraithstrike), and you have a build that can shred level appropriate opposition very efficiently. And the Rogue has the skills to stand up pretty well in the non-combat parts of the game, insofar as anyone without magic can.

[Mehangel]

Huh?

From this link (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=1002.0)

For a player using Rogue as a base going all out abusing potion throwing and UMD I can see them probably breaking into a high Tier 3 to Tier 2. But if you're forcing them to specifically be a melee two-weapon fighter, probably nothing higher than a low Tier 3.

A rogue breaking into tier 3, sure I can see it possible. But breaking into tier 2? Uh, no. I dont think it is possible for any rogue to become a tier 2 class. I mean seriously, what utterly game breaking stuff can a rogue accomplish?

[Brova]

A rogue breaking into tier 3, sure I can see it possible. But breaking into tier 2? Uh, no. I dont think it is possible for any rogue to become a tier 2 class. I mean seriously, what utterly game breaking stuff can a rogue accomplish?

What game breaking stuff is a Binder accomplishing with web vestiges? That's in tier 2. The tiers are not particularly consistent.

[Vhaidara]

What game breaking stuff is a Binder accomplishing with web vestiges? That's in tier 2. The tiers are not particularly consistent.

Summon Monster IX on a 5 round cooldown.

[AvatarVecna]

Bard can probably reach tier 2 with some optimization.

Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8 has high skills, great bardic performance, and 9th lvl spells; seems like a pretty solid T2 build to me, and it's not even as optimized as it can be.

[Brova]

Summon Monster IX on a 5 round cooldown.

So, casting that is about as good as your cohort's cohort's cohort's cohort's cohort? You get a bunch of 4th and 5th level spells, none of which are actually all that good at will. I fail to see how that is even as good as abuse magic device, let alone better.


Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8 has high skills, great bardic performance, and 9th lvl spells; seems like a pretty solid T2 build to me, and it's not even as optimized as it can be.

That's not a Bard build though. That's a Sublime Chord build. Why wouldn't you just be any other arcane spellcaster with a level of Prestige Bard?

[Bortasz]

Summon Monster IX on a 5 round cooldown.

Basically this...
Let's go full power. 20 lvl.
Every 5 round he summon for 20 round some powerful beast.
So before the first will return to his home plane there will be 4 new one to take his place... or 1k4+1 level 7 monsters... so minimum 4 IX monsters up to 20 VII monsters in 20 rounds... Add augmented summoning... and this guys have there own Special abilities.

[AvatarVecna]

That's not a Bard build though. That's a Sublime Chord build. Why wouldn't you just be any other arcane spellcaster with a level of Prestige Bard?

How about the build I provided having more than just a single level of the bardic music stuff, and more overall skills? And I don't see why using the Sublime Chord makes it "not a bard build".

[Brova]

How about the build I provided having more than just a single level of the bardic music stuff, and more overall skills? And I don't see why using the Sublime Chord makes it "not a bard build".

Uh, that build works exactly the same if you are a Wizard 8/Prestige Bard 1/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8. You miss out on a few skills, but having Int casting for a couple of levels makes up for that to a degree (you still need Cha for Sublime Chord). Except you get better casting for the first part of the build, and could take Incantatrix in addition to what you were already doing. Compare that to a Beguiler build like Beguiler 6/Rainbow Servant 10/Beguiler 4, which absolutely wants to be a Beguiler (thanks to the Beguiler's awesome casting mechanic). Or a Rogue build, which wants a bunch of Rogue levels for sneak attack.

[AvatarVecna]

Compare that to a Beguiler build like Beguiler 6/Rainbow Servant 10/Beguiler 4, which absolutely wants to be a Beguiler (thanks to the Beguiler's awesome casting mechanic). Or a Rogue build, which wants a bunch of Rogue levels for sneak attack.

I will admit that the bard is a less focused class than your examples, but that's literally what the bard is all about: not knowing what the hell it wants to be, and just trying to be everything at once. My build used 9 bard levels in the 20 level build, and the three things it's built to do (lots of skills, powerful Cha-based casting, and powerful bardic music) are basically all the bards got going for it anyway. It's literally just a Bard 20 with 9th level spells.

Also, your example wizard build could go that route, but it wouldn't be a bard, it would be a wizard pretending to be a bard through powerful magic, and a straight Wizard 20 can already do that (and better). It would good at Bard stuff, certainly, but there's better routes it can take; a wizard pretending to be a bard is just a slightly less exaggerated case of Pun-Pun dual-wielding and sneak attacking to be an optimized TWF rogue. Sublime Chord/Virtuoso is an upgrade for a Bard, but it's a downgrade for a wizard.

Final note: as far as Wizard/Sublime Chords go, I much prefer upgrading them with Ultimate Magus than upgrading them with Virtuoso. Personal opinion, sure, but I prefer theurge-casting and metamagic abuse to standard casting and bardic music.

[Brova]

I will admit that the bard is a less focused class than your examples, but that's literally what the bard is all about: not knowing what the hell it wants to be, and just trying to be everything at once.

That's kind of the problem though. There aren't really Bard builds, there are just guys with some Bard levels who have specialized into one of the various tricks Bards try to do. So you have caster Bards that you posted, and Gish-y Bards with various feats to do that, and a fear stacking build I saw somewhere. And most of those builds are just things anyone can do. It's either weak if you go straight Bard, or replaceable if you don't.


It's literally just a Bard 20 with 9th level spells.

That's not a Bard build though. That's like saying that the Psion posted above is literally a Rogue with manifesting.


Final note: as far as Wizard/Sublime Chords go, I much prefer upgrading them with Ultimate Magus than upgrading them with Virtuoso. Personal opinion, sure, but I prefer theurge-casting and metamagic abuse to standard casting and bardic music.

I'll give you that.

[AvatarVecna]

That's like saying that the Psion posted above is literally a Rogue with manifesting.

It's a difference in scale, though. A rogue is basically useless compared to a scion, while a Bard 20 (compared to my build) is only slightly worse at the spellcasting stuff. Sure, three spells levels makes a pretty big difference, but it's closer together than a rogue and a psion, so don't even play that game.

EDIT: Also, that psion build had literally no levels of rogue and was just pretending to be a rogue. My full caster bard build has 9 bard levels, which is 4 more base class levels than most caster builds have period.

[(Un)Inspired]

Don't be this guy. If you're allowing "fully optimized" to mean that, then there is one optimal build: the guy who wished for a ring of omnipotence.

Whoa! I leave the thread for a little while to go to work and I get totally roasted in absentia.

What on earth is a ring of omnipotence and in what was is the wish spell able to create one? Who is "this guy"?

You're post has opened up so many questions! My god, it's full of stars etc., etc...

[Brova]

What on earth is a ring of omnipotence and in what was is the wish spell able to create one? Who is "this guy"?

wish allows you to create a magic item. There's no restriction on that whatsoever, so you can wish for a ring that grants "all spells with all permutations of metamagic at will (CL 1,000,000), all unambiguously positive spells permanently active on wearer (CL 1,000,000), all positive unique magic item properties, +1,000,000 to everything". Omnipotence is just shorthand.

You do need an XP free wish, but that's very much doable (Candle is easiest, ice assassin is hardest to stop).

[HalfQuart]

So the thing about JaronK's tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?&topic=5293) is that it is really about measuring flexibility. A TWF rogue can be do a lot of damage in melee... that could be defined as "doing one thing quite well", although there are a lot of situations when you can't SA, so you'll have to invest a lot of resources in making sure it always works:

How do you SA undead, constructs, plants, etc? You take ACFs, acquire items, invest feats,etc. to deal with most of them. Ooze is pretty hard.
How do you ensure that you can always SA? Invest in mobility so you can flank, take feats, get ToB stuff, etc.
How do you deal with concealment? Invest in UMD and wands to get Glitterdust, scroll of True Seeing. Or get other items.

After you invest in all that, you become a pretty reliable source of a lot of melee damage. So the question then is beyond melee combat, how good is the TWF Rogue at dealing with other challenges?

You do get a lot of skill points, so there should be a fair number of things you can do pretty well -- Disable Device to remove traps; Open Locks or UMD Wand of Knock for locks; Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Intimidate for social interaction. Probably can't invest fully in all of them, so probably have to pick one or two to do really well. Also get Spot, Listen, Gather Info, and Know Local, so decent options for recon. Anyway, those 8+Int skill points go pretty fast, but add in some UMD synergy, and you can be useful a lot of the time out of combat.

Ranged combat poses some challenges; you're probably so invested in melee combat that you'll have a hard time excelling.

All in all, I think you could make a case that a well built Rogue with access to the right equipment (wands, scrolls, weapon crystals, etc.) could be described as:

Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate.... Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.
That is the definition of Tier 3. Restriction of access to key equipment would drop it to Tier 4 or maybe even Tier 5. And I definitely don't think they have the "game breaking" abilities of Tier 1 and 2.

That said, the Tier system acknowledges that Player > Build > Tier, so even with a highly optimized build, you can still under perform if you don't play it well.

[(Un)Inspired]

wish allows you to create a magic item. There's no restriction on that whatsoever, so you can wish for a ring that grants "all spells with all permutations of metamagic at will (CL 1,000,000), all unambiguously positive spells permanently active on wearer (CL 1,000,000), all positive unique magic item properties, +1,000,000 to everything". Omnipotence is just shorthand.

You do need an XP free wish, but that's very much doable (Candle is easiest, ice assassin is hardest to stop).

No restrictions whatsoever?! I would assume that it would at least be restricted to creating things in game as opposed to creating magic items in real life. I need to start building some high level casters ASAP!

Is that really what omnipotence means? I was under the impression that as a society we lacked a consistent definition of omnipotence, I guess philosophers should have read their spell compendium more closely.

I'm still not sure what it means to be the enigmatic "this guy".

[Brova]

@Ring: So do you have an actual argument that optimization does not logically conclude at the given point, or just snark?

And "this guy" contextually means the one who optimizes a class by picking another class. I had hoped that was obvious. I mean, this isn't even "build to X power level", it's literally "how good is X class".


So the thing about JaronK's tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?&topic=5293) is that it is really about measuring flexibility what JaronK lets people do in his games.

FTFY. Now my personal disdain for that system aside, let's look at the meat of the post.


How do you SA undead, constructs, plants, etc? You take ACFs, acquire items, invest feats,etc. to deal with most of them. Ooze is pretty hard.

You buy wands of gravestrike and similar spells. That's it. You were already taking abuse magic device, so that's not actually a cost. Ooze is hard to get SA on, but if you can convince your DM that Crippling Strike works on things with immunity (arguably should, possibly doesn't, depends on what "sneak attacks" means). You could also, with a particularly permissive DM, convince your party Wizard to invent oozestrike.


How do you ensure that you can always SA? Invest in mobility so you can flank, take feats, get ToB stuff, etc.

Ring of blinking, Item Familiar of use-activated Shaped grease that activates itself starting at 7th, pounce + stealth.


How do you deal with concealment? Invest in UMD and wands to get Glitterdust, scroll of True Seeing. Or get other items.

Depends on the tactical situation. You could totally just accept that you're going to miss half the time and attack often enough to redmist people anyway.


You do get a lot of skill points, so there should be a fair number of things you can do pretty well -- Disable Device to remove traps; Open Locks or UMD Wand of Knock for locks; Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Intimidate for social interaction. Probably can't invest fully in all of them, so probably have to pick one or two to do really well. Also get Spot, Listen, Gather Info, and Know Local, so decent options for recon. Anyway, those 8+Int skill points go pretty fast, but add in some UMD synergy, and you can be useful a lot of the time out of combat.

Assuming either 14 Int or 12 Int + Human, you get 10 skills. That's Diplomacy, Abuse Magic Device, Disable Device, Search, Spot, Hide, Listen, Move Silently and two free picks. Diplomacy should cover most social skills, Sense Motive is a possible exception. A lock is a Device, and it can presumably be Disabled.


Ranged combat poses some challenges; you're probably so invested in melee combat that you'll have a hard time excelling.

TWF is between one and zero feats, depending on rulings and heroics/mirror move access. Pick up Rapid Shot and you can do fine chucking flasks at things. All your ways of getting sneak attacks function just fine if you happen to be using ranged attacks instead.

[AvatarVecna]

I can definitely agree that a rogue making good abuse of magic devices can claw their way into T3 by using wands and scrolls to make themselves decent combatants. Also, here's a few of my thoughts:


but if you can convince your DM that Crippling Strike works on things with immunity (arguably should, possibly doesn't, depends on what "sneak attacks" means). You could also, with a particularly permissive DM, convince your party Wizard to invent oozestrike.

Even, ignoring the obvious Oberoni fallacy, the first one has issues: namely, abilities that function as alternatives to sneak attack (at least IMO) have always been about changing the effect, but not the cause; rather than striking at vitals for tons of regular damage, you're striking at vitals in a way that prevents movement, or drains strength, or whatever it is. Ultimately, it would depend on whether or not it made sense to me; slicing open a zombies throat is no worse than slicing it anywhere else, even if that would kill a human, but breaking its leg is still breaking its leg. As for oozestrike, I'd probably allow for that, but its telling that the designers included gravestrike and golemstrike as options while avoiding that one; if nothing else, it makes a strong RAI argument for such a thing not existing.


A lock is a Device, and it can presumably be Disabled.

While I agree on general principle (as does Pathfinder and 5e), I also know that there's definitely some 3.5 DMs who would frown on this kind of thing.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by AvatarVecna
If you're wanting a highly capable skillmonkey with great martial prowess, a well-optimized Swift Hunter build will work just as well with fewer resources invested.

Do you have an example build? I've never tried one of these, just interested in what a good Swift Hunter involves.




Originally Posted by Brova
Uh, that build works exactly the same if you are a Wizard 8/Prestige Bard 1/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8.


Originally Posted by Brova
And "this guy" contextually means the one who optimizes a class by picking another class.

Hm.

[Brova]

Even, ignoring the obvious Oberoni fallacy, the first one has issues: namely, abilities that function as alternatives to sneak attack (at least IMO) have always been about changing the effect, but not the cause; rather than striking at vitals for tons of regular damage, you're striking at vitals in a way that prevents movement, or drains strength, or whatever it is.

That one does depend some on DM rulings for full effectiveness. Basically, it relies on either having a permissive DM who thinks it's a good idea, or having a strict DM who buys the argument that sneak attacks and sneak attack damage are different things. That's implied different ways in different cases (at least one spell gives you immunity to "sneak attack damage"). Honestly, it's a pretty marginal ability for dealing with most immunities as there's stuff to hit most creatures anyway (either wands, or gloves from, IIRC, MIC). The real deal is that it beats fortification.


As for oozestrike, I'd probably allow for that, but its telling that the designers included gravestrike and golemstrike as options while avoiding that one; if nothing else, it makes a strong RAI argument for such a thing not existing.

That one is definitely in the DM's court. The RAI question is weird (why those creature types?), particularly given that there are (again, IIRC) items that let you do it.


While I agree on general principle (as does Pathfinder and 5e), I also know that there's definitely some 3.5 DMs who would frown on this kind of thing.

Eh. Some DMs will ban any particular thing. FFS, the actual examples for Disable Device include tampering with a lock.


Do you have an example build? I've never tried one of these, just interested in what a good Swift Hunter involves.

You take three levels of Scout, a bunch of Ranger levels, and then Swift Hunter. Possibly some dips, for cheese you can launder the Scout levels into Ranger. It's a bit like being a Rogue, but with better BAB, less sneak attack, and an easier time beating immunity.


Hm.

Heh.

Basically, I see the difference as being the optimal version of a build versus the potential optimization of a class. Also, polymorph any object and StP are pretty far on the cheese scale, while "be a Wizard" really isn't.

[AvatarVecna]

Do you have an example build? I've never tried one of these, just interested in what a good Swift Hunter involves.

Scout 4/Ranger 16 is standard, AFAICT, although throwing a Fighter dip somewhere in these is also a decent idea (assuming your DM doesn't use multiclass penalties).

The big issue with skirmish is getting the damage on multiple attacks while still moving that round. There's a lot of ways to get free movement, and there's a decent number of ways to get multiple attacks as a standard action. For melee builds, I prefer getting a method pouncing, because it seems simpler (although there's other good methods as well). The easy ways to get pounce are either the barbarian dip every upbercharger takes, or using wildshape ranger to assume a form that gets pounce (although being limited to small/medium animals means the standard lion option isn't available). If you're wanting to go ranged, I recommend either a reliable method of free action movement (they're okay, but IIRC, they're limited use, and I prefer things you can do all day to things you can't), or the Manyshot route.

Unfortunately, because your damage is dependent on getting your skirmish dice, you won't be laying waste to the battlefield until you get Greater Manyshot, which lets you add precision damage to every arrow loosed. That said, GM is available by 7th lvl on a build like this; since the lvl 6 feat is obviously going to be Swift Hunter, GM ends up being your 9th lvl feat (it's possible to get it earlier, but that requires bonus feat shenanigans, which I don't want to go into for a simple summary).

For melee and even more so for ranged, you'll want a lot of feats, making that fighter dip a good option, as well as other cheap sources of bonus feats, like a martial rogue dip, or heroics abuse. Items are straight forward and obvious for both, although the ranged combatant has a distinct advantage when it comes to item optimization (better stuff available, like the Splitting and Force enchantments).

Personally, I prefer the ranged stuff; not only is ranged generally better than melee tactically speaking, but there's some really broken options available, and there's even a way to (arguably) get around Wind Wall with arrows.

I'll probably put up a basic build later, if I end up fully building one.

[HalfQuart]

You buy wands of gravestrike and similar spells. That's it.
Totally agree that this is a fully viable strategy at mid-to-higher levels, but at lower levels reliably hitting a DC 20 UMD check every round can be pretty hard. So for those levels, you probably need to either invest in other methods, or invest resources in maxing UMD early.


Depends on the tactical situation. You could totally just accept that you're going to miss half the time and attack often enough to redmist people anyway.
No, my point is that you can't actually SA something that has concealment -- it isn't actually about missing -- so you need to find a way to bypass concealment. Likewise for incorporeal -- you'll need Ghost Touch or something similar... annoyingly the Ghost Touch Weapon spell (SpC) has a standard action casting time and only lasts 1 minute/level, so you've got to burn a round casting it (probably from a scroll). Alternatively you've got the actual Ghost Touch +1 weapon enhancement, but you'd need it on both your weapons, or get a couple Lesser Truedeath Crystals.

You can probably deal with these challenges a lot easier than most other melee classes, but it does take some investment.

[AvatarVecna]

Totally agree that this is a fully viable strategy at mid-to-higher levels, but at lower levels reliably hitting a DC 20 UMD check every round can be pretty hard. So for those levels, you probably need to either invest in other methods, or invest resources in maxing UMD early.

Well, yeah, but being relatively sucky at the levels you're talking about is a base assumption of the game. The levels where you can't reliably hit DC 20 on UMD are also the levels where an orc with a greataxe can possibly end your career in one round.

[HalfQuart]

Eh. Some DMs will ban any particular thing. FFS, the actual examples for Disable Device include tampering with a lock.
The specific example in Disable Device is "Jam a lock" -- which is very different than opening it. I think both RAW and RAI you can't use DD in place of OL. Now it is perfectly sensible as a house rule to combine the two into one skill like newer editions do.

[Brova]

Totally agree that this is a fully viable strategy at mid-to-higher levels, but at lower levels reliably hitting a DC 20 UMD check every round can be pretty hard. So for those levels, you probably need to either invest in other methods, or invest resources in maxing UMD early.

You hit 20 consistently around 4th to 7th. Honestly, I'm not super worried unless it's an all undead all the time kind of a deal.


No, my point is that you can't actually SA something that has concealment -- it isn't actually about missing -- so you need to find a way to bypass concealment. Likewise for incorporeal -- you'll need Ghost Touch or something similar... annoyingly the Ghost Touch Weapon spell (SpC) has a standard action casting time and only lasts 1 minute/level, so you've got to burn a round casting it (probably from a scroll). Alternatively you've got the actual Ghost Touch +1 weapon enhancement, but you'd need it on both your weapons, or get a couple Lesser Truedeath Crystals.

D'oh.

Just grab a wand/item of blindsight, which lets you ignore concealment out to as far as you can sneak attack.


The specific example in Disable Device is "Jam a lock" -- which is very different than opening it. I think both RAW and RAI you can't use DD in place of OL. Now it is perfectly sensible as a house rule to combine the two into one skill like newer editions do.

That's true, but the skill literally has a section labeled "restriction", which makes no mention of locks. You'd have to convince your DM that a lock is not a device, which seems like a hard sell.

[Darrin]

Do you have an example build? I've never tried one of these, just interested in what a good Swift Hunter involves.


I have a few (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15034762&postcount=13).

[marphod]

Do you have an example build? I've never tried one of these, just interested in what a good Swift Hunter involves.

There are a bunch.

The general premise is

get multiple attacks after moving
get BAB +16 or higher by 20th level
select your Favored Enemies so you get skirmish damage against otherwise immune creatures


You can do this with a TWF or Greater Manyshot build.

Greater Manyshot is more straightforward, as you get all your attacks on a standard action. So, Scout 4/Ranger 16 is a typical build.

For TWF, you need to get consistent additional movement. Standard options include Barbarian 1 (Spirit Lion ACF) for pounce or Knowledge Devotion. (Secondary option is Dervish, but that's usually the Wrong Answer as it kills your FE, Skirmish, and spell progression).

Scout 4/Ranger 16 is still the standard here, but Scout 3/Ranger 16/Barbarian 1 is another good one.


You could go Scout 16/Ranger 4, but giving up your ranger spellcasting for the scout's (otherwise better) class features is probably not worth it.

---

For more fun, use the in Mystic Ranger.

If you are allowed bloodlines, you can get some more flexibility by adding some other class levels in there without impacting your Skirmish and Favored Enemy progression (doesn't help with spell progression, but you get the caster levels)

[Susano-wo]

If you are consistently good at combat, a rogue is definitely in Tier 3 territory, just from a wide skill list and 8ranks/level minimum. 10/level is easily done. You can have social skills with Bluff and Sense motive (should be able to manipulate well with just those two; diplomacy is helpful but unnecessary), have B&E with most of the rest of your skills(climb, disable device, open lock, spot, move silently and hide, for example, though if you plan enough you might be able to skimp on climb and hide) and still have ranks left for tumble and UMD. So there are plenty of situations where you are at least useful, and at least one where you are good (combat in this case).

And regardless what one thinks of using magic items to supplement class weakness, UMD is definitely a class gaining an advantage that all classes cannot have--its totally legit to include UMD in a rogues power level

And if I may be allowed stir up more controversy :smallwink:, the idea that Tiers assume equal optimizing, therefore your level of optimization does not matter is bupkis. the Tier system has to average out optimization a bit, but its well known that different classes have different optimization ceilings and floors (just looks at Warblade vs Fighter), so if class A can be, through poor spell selection a tier 4 or 5, but at max optimization is tier 1, and class B can be as low as 5, but can only reach tier 3 at max optimization, then manifestly your level of optimization effects a classes Tier rating. Tier rating is measured by capabilities, so if your build selection gives you the capabilities of Tier X, then that's what Tier you are, even if you are normally in Tier (X-Y)

[Ziegander]

In this thread: Brova hijacks Shnigda and sassmouths everyone about JaronK's tiers.

[Curmudgeon]

I've got an answer here at the end, but it requires quite a bit of exposition to justify.

There are five basic limitations for a Rogue and Two-Weapon Fighting:

The Rogue is a feat-starved class, and TWF requires investment in a feat tree which provides diminishing returns (less chance of hitting, and thus dealing damage, with each additional feat).
The Rogue has only 3/4 BAB, and thus can't qualify for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting until level 8, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting until level 15.
TWF requires you to make full attacks. If you want to deal fully optimized damage to normally sneak-immune enemies, those need to be full melee attacks. The Rogue is too squishy to withstand full counterattacks.
TWF requires using an extra weapon. Enhancing an extra weapon costs extra gp, but fully optimizing your TWF requires enhancing both weapons maximally. You'll trend roughly +1 enhancement behind a Rogue who just enhances a single weapon, assuming normal wealth.
You're less likely to hit with TWF than without. You've got only 3/4 BAB. You've got a minimum -2 to all hits. You're probably behind on weapon bonuses, so similarly less likely to hit.

Extra feats can be acquired if you're "fully optimized". Be an Elf and gain 4 bonus racial weapon proficiency feats. Serve an Elder Evil and gain bonus [Vile] feats. Take a couple of flaws (with limitations which don't matter to you, because you're "fully optimized") for 2 more feats at level 1. Use Dark Chaos Shuffle to trade those feats for what you need.

Diving into the Use Magic Device issue, use that skill to spam Divine Power from a wand. You're "fully optimized", so you'll be able to convince your DM to announce in advance when they're going to award enough XP for you to advance a level. Trigger Divine Power just before leveling up and you'll be able to select feats you qualify for with full BAB.

You can avoid full counterattacks through stealth and bonus movement. Take the Faerûn-only Dark Creature template (Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave, page 152) and buy that +1 Level Adjustment off at class level 3. Maximize your Hide skill and Hide while attacking. Also get gear like an Anklet of Translocation (Magic Item Compendium, page 71) to teleport away as a swift action after your full attack. Your enemies won't see you and won't know where you are.

Money can also be acquired if you're "fully optimized". If you're dealing with all the traps, claim all the rewards from trapped treasure chests. You can surreptitiously loot small items (including all gems) from the bodies of slain enemies using maximized Sleight of Hand, then claim your equal share of the publicly disclosed treasure. Enhance both your weapons with your extra wealth. Buy a Sparring Dummy of the Master and pay an NPC Cleric to cast Guidance of the Avatar (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) 224 times for you (once per hour) during your training so you can make your UMD checks to emulate the features of a level 1 Monk. After the training you'll be able to choose between 5' and 10' steps, which will let you get some safe distance away from the enemy you just full attacked with TWF.

Using Divine Power at the start of every combat will increase your attack bonus. Maximize your Spot and maybe Listen skills so you won't be surprised and can get that spell triggered in the surprise round. Take Education (Eberron Campaign Setting, page 52) (at 1st level) and Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion, pages 60-61) feats plus Collector of Stories (Complete Scoundrel, page 85) skill trick. Buy custom items of skill bonus (competence) to the 6 Knowledge skills related to D&D creature types. You'll gain a +5 bonus to hit and damage vs. every creature in D&D.


Do all of the above, and you'll counter the problems inherent in TWF. You of course need to add all the niceties for any smart Rogue as well: Lightbringer Penetrating Strike (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208) ACF in place of trap sense to deal sneak attack to the normally sneak-immune; Craven (Champions of Ruin, page 17) feat to boost sneak attack damage; and take Crippling Strike as your level 10 Rogue special ability, and Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel, pages 80-81) feat at that level also (acquiring the feat through a DCS rather than waiting for the next general feat at level 12) so you'll be able to deal STR damage even to the sneak-immune. Take Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer, page 112) feat to give the staggered condition to enemies for 1 round, and try to hit multiple enemies each turn.

You're "fully optimized", so insist on adjudicating Improved Uncanny Dodge literally:
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.

This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does. It doesn't say that enemies are denied bonuses for flanking you; it says they can't flank you. That is, it is illegal for an enemy to move into a flanking position.
flank: To be directly on the other side of a character who is being threatened by another character.
Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space
Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal position that’s closer.

If you're always unseen you can't be targeted. If you stagger multiple enemies each round that status effect will greatly constrain their options. If you've got much higher wealth than typical you'll be able to give yourself both defensive and offensive boosts (sometimes both at once, as with a wand of Vampiric Touch: you give yourself temporary HP equal to the total damage you deal, including sneak attack). Just as you obtained the ability to make 10' steps with money, you'll also be able to obtain additional capabilities, such as flight via Feathered Wings (Fiend Folio, page 210) graft. Get Quick Draw and stock up on splash weapons. You'll be able to sneak attack some foes plus deal splash damage nearby with TWF adding to your number of attacks, but the principal reason is to wipe out every Mirror Image cluster of figments with just a single throw.

Versatility is what boosts you in the tier system. You can be versatile with TWF, but most of the above is about letting you thrive as a Rogue despite TWF. With all of the above your "fully optimized" TWF Rogue can make it to Tier 3. If you dispensed with TWF and plowed all your resources into additional versatility (instead of just making TWF work) you could hold your own with Tier 2 characters.

[EugeneVoid]

By the way, y'all: I meant Bard 20 as Sublime Chord is commonly considered a +2 PrC that will boost the logical entry, Bard, up two tiers to tier ~1.

[Ziegander]

I've got an answer here at the end, but it requires quite a bit of exposition to justify.

There are five basic limitations for a Rogue and Two-Weapon Fighting:

The Rogue is a feat-starved class, and TWF requires investment in a feat tree which provides diminishing returns (less chance of hitting, and thus dealing damage, with each additional feat).
The Rogue has only 3/4 BAB, and thus can't qualify for Two-Weapon Fighting until level 8, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting until level 15.
TWF requires you to make full attacks. If you want to deal fully optimized damage to normally sneak-immune enemies, those need to be full melee attacks. The Rogue is too squishy to withstand full counterattacks.
TWF requires using an extra weapon. Enhancing an extra weapon costs extra gp, but fully optimizing your TWF requires enhancing both weapons maximally. You'll trend roughly +1 enhancement behind a Rogue who just enhances a single weapon, assuming normal wealth.
You're less likely to hit with TWF than without. You've got only 3/4 BAB. You've got a minimum -2 to all hits. You're probably behind on weapon bonuses, so similarly less likely to hit.

Extra feats can be acquired if you're "fully optimized". Be an Elf and gain 4 bonus racial weapon proficiency feats. Serve an Elder Evil and gain bonus [Vile] feats. Take a couple of flaws (with limitations which don't matter to you, because you're "fully optimized") for 2 more feats at level 1. Use Dark Chaos Shuffle to trade those feats for what you need.

Diving into the Use Magic Device issue, use that skill to spam Divine Power from a wand. You're "fully optimized", so you'll be able to convince your DM to announce in advance when they're going to award enough XP for you to advance a level. Trigger Divine Power just before leveling up and you'll be able to select feats you qualify for with full BAB.

You can avoid full counterattacks through stealth and bonus movement. Take the Faerûn-only Dark Creature template (Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave, page 152) and buy that +1 Level Adjustment off at class level 3. Maximize your Hide skill and Hide while attacking. Also get gear like an Anklet of Translocation (Magic Item Compendium, page 71) to teleport away as a swift action after your full attack. Your enemies won't see you and won't know where you are.

Money can also be acquired if you're "fully optimized". If you're dealing with all the traps, claim all the rewards from trapped treasure chests. You can surreptitiously loot small items (including all gems) from the bodies of slain enemies using maximized Sleight of Hand, then claim your equal share of the publicly disclosed treasure. Enhance both your weapons with your extra wealth. Buy a Sparring Dummy of the Master and pay an NPC Cleric to cast Guidance of the Avatar (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) 224 times for you (once per hour) during your training so you can make your UMD checks to emulate the features of a level 1 Monk. After the training you'll be able to choose between 5' and 10' steps, which will let you get some safe distance away from the enemy you just full attacked with TWF.

Using Divine Power at the start of every combat will increase your attack bonus. Maximize your Spot and maybe Listen skills so you won't be surprised and can get that spell triggered in the surprise round. Take Education (Eberron Campaign Setting, page 52) (at 1st level) and Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion, pages 60-61) feats plus Collector of Stories (Complete Scoundrel, page 85) skill trick. Buy custom items of skill bonus (competence) to the 6 Knowledge skills related to D&D creature types. You'll gain a +5 bonus to hit and damage vs. every creature in D&D.


Do all of the above, and you'll counter the problems inherent in TWF. You of course need to add all the niceties for any smart Rogue as well: Lightbringer Penetrating Strike (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208) ACF in place of trap sense to deal sneak attack to the normally sneak-immune; Craven (Champions of Ruin, page 17) feat to boost sneak attack damage; and take Crippling Strike as your level 10 Rogue special ability, and Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel, pages 80-81) feat at that level also (acquiring the feat through a DCS rather than waiting for the next general feat at level 12) so you'll be able to deal STR damage even to the sneak-immune. Take Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer, page 112) feat to give the staggered condition to enemies for 1 round, and try to hit multiple enemies each turn.

You're "fully optimized", so insist on adjudicating Improved Uncanny Dodge literally: It doesn't say that enemies are denied bonuses for flanking you; it says they can't flank you. That is, it is illegal for an enemy to move into a flanking position.

If you're always unseen you can't be targeted. If you stagger multiple enemies each round that status effect will greatly constrain their options. If you've got much higher wealth than typical you'll be able to give yourself both defensive and offensive boosts (sometimes both at once, as with a wand of Vampiric Touch: you give yourself temporary HP equal to the total damage you deal, including sneak attack). Just as you obtained the ability to make 10' steps with money, you'll also be able to obtain additional capabilities, such as flight via Feathered Wings (Fiend Folio, page 210) graft. Get Quick Draw and stock up on splash weapons. You'll be able to sneak attack some foes plus deal splash damage nearby with TWF adding to your number of attacks, but the principal reason is to wipe out every Mirror Image cluster of figments with just a single throw.

Versatility is what boosts you in the tier system. You can be versatile with TWF, but most of the above is about letting you thrive as a Rogue despite TWF. With all of the above your "fully optimized" TWF Rogue can make it to Tier 3. If you dispensed with TWF and plowed all your resources into additional versatility (instead of just making TWF work) you could hold your own with Tier 2 characters.

#slowclap

This man knows what he's talking about.

[Mehangel]

Stuff

I see this is how one can make a Tier 3 rogue, but it still wouldn't make it Tier 2 in my book. Just because a rogue can kill a Tier 1 or 2 class, it doesnt boost the rogue to becoming tier 1 or 2.

[Brova]

@Curmudgeon: We've had this discussion before, but I consider the Flask Rogue build (detailed here (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Halfling_Hurler_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build))) to be among the better Rogue builds.


In this thread: Brova hijacks Shnigda and sassmouths everyone about JaronK's tiers.

You mean, in a discussion about what it would take for the Rogue to be tier two, I commented on inconsistencies in the list of classes in tier two? I don't really understand how that's hijacking.

Maybe you mean this:


So the thing about JaronK's tier system is that it is really about measuring flexibility what JaronK lets people do in his games.

FTFY. Now my personal disdain for that system aside, let's look at the meat of the post.

Where I made a two line comment about how the tier system is dumb? I recall that post having a rather detailed discussion about how the Rogue is better than the poster intimated.

[Curmudgeon]

I see this is how one can make a Tier 3 rogue, but it still wouldn't make it Tier 2 in my book. Just because a rogue can kill a Tier 1 or 2 class, it doesnt boost the rogue to becoming tier 1 or 2.
What I've explained doesn't get up to Tier 2; it explicitly addresses the TWF Rogue, and spends half the build resources making that work without the squishy Rogue dying because of that choice. To hold your own with Tier 2 requires quite a different approach.

[Ziegander]

You mean, in a discussion about what it would take for the Rogue to be tier two, I commented on inconsistencies in the list of classes in tier two? I don't really understand how that's hijacking.

No, see, I know that's the discussion you think Shnigda wanted to have, but it's not. It's not the discussion Shnigda started the thread with. You've posted over and over again, shifting the goalposts of Shnigda's initial conversation to attack points made by other posters, but you haven't really furthered any discussion meaningful to what the OP was looking for. Yeah, that's basically the definition of hijacking. You took Shnigda's thread about something tangentially related, and made it about what you wanted to talk about and outnumbered the OPs post count five to one (or more, I won't be bothered to count).

[LooseCannoneer]

For TWF capabilities, I wouldn't take more than a level of Rogue. The rest is taken up with Fighter for BAB, Dervish for fun times, and Tempest for more TWF support. 14 attacks per round. If you boost each with 1 die of SA, that'll add up.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by AvatarVecna
Scout 4/Ranger 16 is standard, AFAICT, although throwing a Fighter dip somewhere in these is also a decent idea (assuming your DM doesn't use multiclass penalties).

…I'll probably put up a basic build later, if I end up fully building one.

I wouldn't mind seeing that, although….


Originally Posted by Darrin
I have a few.

Why yes, you do indeed. Thank you, that's exactly what I was looking for.

Also:


Originally Posted by Curmudgeon
*posts mini-handbook*


Originally Posted by Ziegander
This man knows what he's talking about.

Indeed.

[Gnaeus]

Tier assumes optimization, so "fully optimized" won't change the tier unless the optimization involves multiclass or PrC options that are inherently of a higher tier.

You're looking at the high 4 to low 3 range.

No. That isn't true.

Tier assumes EQUIVALENT optimization. A high op rogue is tier 4, only when compared with a high op fighter and a high op bard. but don't take my word for it.


Q: I totally saw a [Class X] perform far better than a [Class Y] even though you list it as lower. What gives?

A: This system assumes that everything other than mechanics is totally equal. It's a ranking of the mechanical classes themselves, not of the players who use that class. As long as the players are of equal skill and optimize their characters roughly the same amount, it's fine. If one player optimizes a whole lot more than the other, that will shift their position on the chart. Likewise, if one player is more skilled than the other, or campaign situations favor one playstyle over another, classes can shift around. Remember, this is a rough ranking and a guideline, not a perfect ruler.

Q: So what a minute, how can I use it then? My players all play differently.

A: First, determine what you'd say is the average optimization and skill level in the group, then make adjustments for people who are noticably different from that. I can't give examples of skill level, but here's an example for optimization. Imagine for a moment that your party has a Cleric with DMM: Persistant Spell, a Fighter with Shock Trooper and Leap Attack, a Beguiler with a Mindbender dip and Mindsight, and a traditional Sword and Board Fighter. Now, the first three are pretty optimized, but the fourth is pretty weak. So in that case, what you've actually got is a Tier 1, a Tier 3, a Tier 5, and a Tier 6, with that second Fighter being Tier 6 because he's far less optimized than the rest of the group. However, if your group is instead a healbot Cleric, a Beguiler who hasn't figured out how to use illusions effectively, a Sword and Board Fighter, and a Shock Trooper/Leap Attack Fighter, then the charge based Fighter is the odd one out. Bump him up a Tier... maybe even 2. So now you've got a Tier 1, a Tier 3, a Tier 5, and maybe a Tier 4. Remember, this whole thing is about intra party balance... there's no objective balancing, because each campaign is different.

In other words, the optimized rogue in an unoptimized party will be tier 3 or even tier 2, depending on how aggressive the optimization difference is. It is very easy to imagine a rogue using his optimization chops to shatter WBL, then abusing items of Polymorph or summon monster being able to outcompete an aggressively badly built sorcerer.

[Ssalarn]

In other words, the optimized rogue in an unoptimized party will be tier 3 or even tier 2, depending on how aggressive the optimization difference is. It is very easy to imagine a rogue using his optimization chops to shatter WBL, then abusing items of Polymorph or summon monster being able to outcompete an aggressively badly built sorcerer.

That's great, except it doesn't make any sense. The same Shock Trooper Fighter went from Tier 3 in the first example of an optimized party to Tier 4 in an unoptimized party.

It's inaccurate to say that a character's Tier changes based on the system mastery of the group, because Tier is supposed to be a measure of potential utility, which is constant. A Fighter who can only solve problems by hitting things doesn't suddenly jump up a notch because the Cleric is an idiot who doesn't know what he's doing; the Fighter's potential and tools are still exactly the same, which means he still lands in exactly the same place on the defined Tier list. JaronK may have been the first to formalize the Tier system, but he's neither Jesus nor a genius, as exemplified by your quote.

There is some flexibility of course; Tier 1 characters in particular can totally fail to live up to their Tier 1 potential and may be played as though they were several tiers lower. Even then though, a Wizard with crap spells is still just a little work away from meeting his Tier 1 potential. Generally on these boards though, there's a certain assumption of applied system mastery, because if you're already on this forum, there's no excuse to be making a crappy character.

[Cerefel]

It's stupid to say that a character's Tier changes based on the system mastery of the group, because Tier is supposed to be a measure of potential utility, which is constant. A Fighter who can only solve problems by hitting things doesn't suddenly jump up a notch because the Cleric is an idiot who doesn't know what he's doing; the Fighter's potential and tools are still exactly the same, which means he still lands in exactly the same place on the defined Tier list. JaronK may have been the first to formalize the Tier system, but he's neither Jesus nor a genius, as exemplified by your quote.

What you're overlooking here is that while everyone playing a given class may have access to the same tools, not all players are going to utilize them as well as others, and you can't assume everyone is going to have a completely perfectly optimized character. If the tier list assumed perfect optimization, monk would be tier 4 and wizard would be tier 0.

[Curmudgeon]

It's stupid to say that a character's Tier changes based on the system mastery of the group, because Tier is supposed to be a measure of potential utility, which is constant.
This is not correct. You can increase or decrease potential utility based on build and play choices. A PC who squanders all their gold on recreation (wine, women, song) so they have no armor, and makes all their feats Toughness in an attempt to compensate, has much less potential utility after those poor decisions.

[Ssalarn]

This is not correct. You can increase or decrease potential utility based on build and play choices. A PC who squanders all their gold on recreation (wine, women, song) so they have no armor, and makes all their feats Toughness in an attempt to compensate, has much less potential utility after those poor decisions.

No, that just means they wasted their potential. As I noted, a character can fail to live up to their potential and play as though they were a lower Tier. What I'm saying is nonsense is the assertion that the other members of the party being crappy can somehow raise the Tier of another creature in the party. A Tier 3 Rogue in a party of Tier 6 characters doesn't miraculously become better at the things he does, nor does he magically gain "I win" buttons he didn't have before, as Gnaeus' statement and JaronK's errant quote would indicate; said Rogue still has the exact same ability to deal with the exact same kinds and number of challenges. If a Rogue's maximium potential (see- if a Rogue is totally optimized) is Tier 3, then it doesn't matter how many incompetent jackanapes he surrounds himself with, he'll always be Tier 3. He'll never gain the "I win" buttons or combination of power and versatility that are the hallmarks of the Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes.

Essentially, the Tier system may not have a floor, but every class definitely has a ceiling within it. Since the OP specifically asked what Tier an optimized Rogue was, we don't care about the fact that you could theoretically make a Rogue who's Tier 6, we only care what the ceiling the Rogue can reach is. If he can be reasonably good at a number of things without truly being the master of any, and if he lacks the "I win" buttons of a full caster, He's looking at Tier 3, regardless of the Tier of his companions.

[Cerefel]

Once again, you're basing your argument on the assumption that the tier list is/should be about the highest possible level of optimization a character can have, even though that isn't the idea behind it.

[Ssalarn]

Once again, you're basing your argument on the assumption that the tier list is/should be about the highest possible level of optimization a character can have, even though that isn't the idea behind it.

The OP asked about the Tier of an optimized Rogue, and if you would actually take the time to read an entire paragraph, you'd see that I already acknowledged that any given class has downwards mobility, which is irrelevant to the conversation.

The definition of the Tiers are:



The Tier System

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribue to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.

Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

Tier 5: Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the rest of the party is weak in that situation and the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

Examples: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight

Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Examples: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner


A given character either meets the definition, or they don't. Having a bunch of Tier 6s in the group doesn't mean the Rogue is suddenly " Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels."

So if an optimized Rogue's maximum potential is "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with" then the answer to the OP's question is "Tier 3".

[prufock]

The Rogue has only 3/4 BAB, and thus can't qualify for Two-Weapon Fighting until level 8, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting until level 15.
I think you mean Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at level 8; Two-Weapon Fighting's only prereq is Dex 15.

[Curmudgeon]

I think you mean Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at level 8; Two-Weapon Fighting's only prereq is Dex 15.
You're right; I cut and pasted the base feat name, then apparently only fleshed out the full name in one of the two instances. I'll go edit the post to allay confusion. Thanks for pointing this out.

[ekarney]

Tier is power and versatility.
A Reasonably high-op TWF Rogue is good for 2 things.

Fighting with two weapons
And reasonable skill monkeying.

To calculate this I'm going to refer to two classes that exemplify these things.

The Factotum - a pure skill monkey class, capable of standing in for any role for a certain period of time.
and
The Ranger - a pretty standard TWF class with minor spellcasting for a small power and versatility boost.

The Factotum with all its versatility is still tier 3 and the Ranger is tier 4.

A standard rogue sits at around the border of tier 4/5.

So by heavily optimizing it to exemplify both skill monkeying and two weapon combat you're limited the combat to essentially one trick which is something that a lot of martial classes fall prey to. However you do have reasonable skill monkey capabilities. Assuming this is a straight 20 rogue, we can expect it to sit solidly in tier 4 or maybe tier 3. Your skill monkey powers grant you more versatility than a TWF fighter who only possesses slightly more power. However you still lack the raw versatility of the Factotum.

So yes, you can do ONE thing quite well, and a few other things covered by being a skill monkey but you can't do all those things too well. So very definition of a tier 4. Maybe tier 3 if you can skill monkey REALLY well.

[Gnaeus]

The definition of the Tiers are:

The definition of the tiers are immediately followed by that passage explaining what that assumes. Those definitions by JaronK are no more or less important than his clarification of how they are intended to be analyzed.



A given character either meets the definition, or they don't. Having a bunch of Tier 6s in the group doesn't mean the Rogue is suddenly " Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels."

So if an optimized Rogue's maximum potential is "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with" then the answer to the OP's question is "Tier 3".

Tier 3 is irrelevant in a vacuum. You can argue theory until you are blue in the face, but you are ignoring: 1. the definitions of what the system is, as accepted by most people and defined in the original source document by its creator and 2. the actual play of the game.

So when you say that classes are lowering their tier by playing below their potential, you are just wrong. A healbot cleric is tier 1 in a game with with a blaster wizard and a sword and board fighter. He is not tier 1 in a game with an ubercharger and a planar servant.

To put it another way, the game itself is a sliding scale. If I threw the players of my local game, playing wizards, clerics and druids, and I added Curmudgeon playing the group rogue, it is fantastically unlikely that the characters of the casters would outperform his rogue in either combat or utility. The rogue, normally tier 4 because he isn't very good in combat and has limited utility out of combat, would suddenly be the best PC in the game in combat, and after using his skill to break WBL and secure specific items, would have the magical chops to press as many or more "I Win buttons" than the nominal T1s. Of course, given equivalent optimization, the T1s could match and beat that kind of WBLmancy in multiple ways. But we are specifically NOT talking about equivalent optimization, and when matched against encounters which are balanced against the low op party, either in or out of combat, the rogue will shine to a degree not reflective of his ranking on the standard tier chart. His abilities (never being useless, often being more useful than characters designed to do a specific thing in their area of expertise) will look like what a more powerful tiered character would look like in a party without that disparity. We can therefore call him a T3, or even a T2 in extreme cases, and be correct both in assumptions on how the game works, and in meeting the actual definitions of the system as defined since its inception.

To use the simplest measurement, tiers tend to balance within about one tier of each other. A high op rogue in a low op party will heavily outcompete other t4s and 5s. He will probably not vastly outshine T3s through T1s, but will consistently remain relevant and will often shine even against much higher tier competition. So even a rough eyeball test will suggest that in that environment, he's running like a high T3-T2.

[Ssalarn]

So when you say that classes are lowering their tier by playing below their potential, you are just wrong. A healbot cleric is tier 1 in a game with with a blaster wizard and a sword and board fighter. He is not tier 1 in a game with an ubercharger and a planar servant.


And yet in JaronK's own post that you quoted, the Cleric with DMM: Persistant Spell and the healbot Cleric were both Tier 1, both in a group with an uber-charger, and the uber-charger's Tier was the one that went down when the average system mastery of the group went down. All you established is that JaronK, despite coming up with some very handy definitions, wasn't any smarter when he posted that response than anyone else (maybe a little less so since that response doesn't make sense whichever way you cut it). Tier definitions either do or do not apply. You either fit the definition for a Tier, or you don't. Unless being surrounded by idiots somehow gives the Rogue a summon monster SLA like the Pathfinder Summoner, he isn't Tier 2.

[Gnaeus]

And yet in JaronK's own post that you quoted, the Cleric with DMM: Persistant Spell and the healbot Cleric were both Tier 1, both in a group with an uber-charger, and the uber-charger's Tier was the one that went down when the average system mastery of the group went down. All you established is that JaronK, despite coming up with some very handy definitions, wasn't any smarter when he posted that response than anyone else (maybe a little less so since that response doesn't make sense whichever way you cut it).

JaronK is not infallable. However he is correct in his example. I'll break it down to make his example clearer.
Group 1. High op Group.
DMM Cleric is high op. Tier 1
Mindbender Beguiler is high op. Tier 3.
Charge Fighter is high op. Tier 5
Sword and board fighter is low op. Tier 5 downgraded to tier 6.

Group 2. Low op group.
Healbot cleric is low op. Tier 1
Beguiler who doesn't understand illusions is low op. Tier 3.
Sword and board fighter is low op. Tier 5
Charge fighter is high op. Tier 5 upgraded to tier 4.

If you check this against his quote, this is EXACTLY what he indicates.


Tier definitions either do or do not apply. You either fit the definition for a Tier, or you don't.

The tier definitions, BY THEIR DEFINITIONS assume equivalent optimization. So here they do not apply.



Unless being surrounded by idiots somehow gives the Rogue a summon monster SLA like the Pathfinder Summoner, he isn't Tier 2.

Done.

The rogue is in a party with a low op bard and fighter. All 3, for convenience, have made strength based melee builds (not the simplest path for our high op rogue, but doable).

All 3 have a bunch of money to spend. They decide that since they are kind of a spec-ops team, they all need the same stuff. Move of 40. Darkvision. +6 Str. Natural attacks. (Maybe they are playing with fumble rules and they keep dropping their weapons. The Rogue being a savvy player could just get a locked gauntlet, but he has another plan).

Fighter and bard go shopping. They buy:
Belt of Str +6, 36k
Goggles of night, 12k
Boots of striding and springing, 5.5k
Cloak of Fangs, 2800.

They are all proud, they spent 56.3 k and got all they wanted.

The rogue uses his Opti-fu and knows he can do better. He buys:
Belt of Str +4, 16k
Greater Hat of Disguise, 12k. He then turns into a Tabaxi, giving him 40'move, +2 size bonus to Str, Darkvision, a bite attack, and scent. (He also has the option to pick up a swim speed, or turn into a small creature to boost his dex for out of combat skill use).
And a cloak of resistance +1 1k

But he still has 27.3 k left to spend. So he runs out, and buys a Wand of Summon Monster IV, and for good measure, a couple of scrolls of Teleport, one of Break Enchantment, and one of Limited Wish.

Since he knew OOC that he was going to be making use of summons, he previously put some ranks in Knowledge Planes (And Know local, which is how he knew Tabaxi are awesome). He now uses his 50 charges of summon monster 4 to duplicate other spells when needed, such as Magic Circle v. Evil, stinking cloud, pyrotechnics, lightning bolt, blur, gust of wind, etc...

He had the same WBL as his friends, he left with all the same stuff they have, but better, and with a lot of caster tricks in his pocket. By virtue of his optimization, he given himself a "free" at will summoning ability. In that group, he is functioning like a Tier 2 caster. If they had a badly built sorcerer, say someone who was picking multiple blasting spells at each level to make sure he had lots of different blasting types covered, the Rogue would be a BETTER caster than that low op tier 2 sorcerer.

And that's baby stuff. He hasn't even used one of the myriad tricks available to him to just break WBL. He just shopped smarter.

[Vhaidara]

That's not a rogue, though. That's the player. Any class could do that, which is why wbl shenanigans aren't really relevant to tier. That rogue could just as easily have been a commoner.

Also, how are you getting bonuses from a Hat of Disguise? That's Disguise Self, not Alter Self. Illusion, not Transmutation.

[Gnaeus]

That's not a rogue, though. That's the player. Any class could do that, which is why wbl shenanigans aren't really relevant to tier. That rogue could just as easily have been a commoner.

Thats why WBL shenanigans aren't really relevent to tier assuming equivalent optimization, which is the default assumption of the tier system. This argument is not to show how rogues are tier 2. It shows how classes move up and down the tier chart compared with other classes at much higher or lower optimization levels. It could have been a commoner, (assuming that the commoner could swing the knowledges and UMD involved) and while the optimized commoner, lacking all the other stuff the optimized rogue has, wouldn't look like a T2, he would certainly look a lot better than T6 in a low op environment. Probably T4ish in that group. He could certainly beat the fighter.


Also, how are you getting bonuses from a Hat of Disguise? That's Disguise Self, not Alter Self. Illusion, not Transmutation.

The Greater Hat of Disguise mimics Alter Self. PFSRD.

[Ssalarn]

JaronK is not infallable. However he is correct in his example. I'll break it down to make his example clearer.
Group 1. High op Group.
DMM Cleric is high op. Tier 1
Mindbender Beguiler is high op. Tier 3.
Charge Fighter is high op. Tier 5
Sword and board fighter is low op. Tier 5 downgraded to tier 6.

Group 2. Low op group.
Healbot cleric is low op. Tier 1
Beguiler who doesn't understand illusions is low op. Tier 3.
Sword and board fighter is low op. Tier 5
Charge fighter is high op. Tier 5 upgraded to tier 4.

If you check this against his quote, this is EXACTLY what he indicates.



Keledrath already addressed the fact that your second paragraph has nothing to do with a character being a Rogue, so I'll touch on this-



If you check this against his quote, this is EXACTLY what he indicates.

Nope! Reading comprehension time! I'll put in superscripts to make it clearer.



Imagine for a moment that your party has a Cleric with DMM: Persistant Spell1, a Fighter with Shock Trooper and Leap Attack2, a Beguiler with a Mindbender dip and Mindsight3, and a traditional Sword and Board Fighter4. Now, the first three are pretty optimized, but the fourth is pretty weak. So in that case, what you've actually got is a Tier 11, a Tier 32, a Tier 53, and a Tier 64, with that second Fighter being Tier 6 because he's far less optimized than the rest of the group. However, if your group is instead a healbot Cleric5, a Beguiler who hasn't figured out how to use illusions effectively6, a Sword and Board Fighter7, and a Shock Trooper/Leap Attack Fighter8, then the charge based Fighter is the odd one out. Bump him up a Tier... maybe even 2. So now you've got a Tier 15, a Tier 36, a Tier 57, and maybe a Tier 48.


In the optimized party, the uber-charger is supposedly a Tier 3, but in the unoptimized party he's actually dropped down to a Tier 4. Based on that example, being optimized in an unoptimized group would apparently make you drop a Tier (unless you're an unoptimized Beguiler, which are apparently two tiers higher than optimized ones). Better not play a Wizard in a party full of Fighters, you might get dropped to Tier 3 according to JaronK!

I suppose you could always argue that what he really meant was what you said, but it doesn't support your position very well that when he wrote the quote he didn't even care enough to structure his sentences properly.

[Gnaeus]

Nope! Reading comprehension time! I'll put in superscripts to make it clearer.

I suppose you could always argue that what he really meant was what you said, but it doesn't support your position very well that when he wrote the quote he didn't even care enough to structure his sentences properly.


Your reading assumes that the guy who wrote the tier system thinks beguilers are T5 and chargers are T3. That his example makes no sense and does not support his argument.

Having spent hours arguing with him about it, I assure you JaronK thinks beguilers are T3.

He swapped the order by accident when describing the tiers in first party. He probably assumed that in a discussion of the tier system that people would know the standard tiers of classes. He described a party which has a T1, a T3, a T5 and a T6, (and later, a T1, T3, T4 and T5) and which order he put them in is entirely irrelevant.

If you would like to debate JaronK's grammar, I'm sure that would be an exciting thread. What he was describing in those examples is both clear (unless intentionally distorted) and correct.

[Vhaidara]

You're mixing things. You're using a pathfinder item, but the PF version of alter self doesn't increase move speed, or give natural attacks.

[Gnaeus]

You're mixing things. You're using a pathfinder item, but the PF version of alter self doesn't increase move speed, or give natural attacks.


Alter Self:
School transmutation (polymorph)



Subschools

Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.


PFSRD disagrees. Bolded for emphasis. My PF party contains many Tabaxi.

Anyway, kind of irrelevant. You could pick any other example of how 3.PF has multiple items that do the same things at wildly differing price points. I could look at 3.5 and show a fighter adding "Flaming" to his +4 weapon at a huge cost while the rogue sticks a weapon crystal on his. Or some low op guy buying wands of cure serious wounds for party healing while the high op guy buys wands of lesser vigor. WBL is broken, and abusing that brokenness is one of the easier to demonstrate methods by which high op players can climb virtual tiers in contrast with low op players, because WBL is easily converted to spell equivalents.

It helps that OP is discussing a high op Rogue, because it is no big leap to assume that a high op rogue can use any wands and scrolls he can obtain. A barbarian in the same party might only be able to hit T3.

[Ssalarn]

Your reading assumes that the guy who wrote the tier system thinks beguilers are T5 and chargers are T3. That his example makes no sense and does not support his argument.


No, I'm reading, and a facility with the English language tells me what he said made no sense. Or, alternatively, it says that your expert witness can't count to 4 consistently.

But we're derailing the thread, so I'll end by saying:

If the Tier system is conditional and the definitions don't actually mean what they say but are instead prone to arbitrary changes based on who else shows up for the game, then it is utterly and completely worthless. It's already a one-dimensional and limited tool for describing utility and adaptability, if the definitions don't even actually mean what they say they mean, then it's just the babbling of another crazy person on the internet of no use to anyone. If you use the definitions as written though and assume that applying high system mastery provides a relatively consistent and measurable result within the framework of each class, then the Tier system does actually have some validity as a GM tool.

[Gnaeus]

On the contrary, pretending that the tier system is nothing but a set of definitions makes it useful only as a theory tool.

Understanding that in practice, balance tends to fall within 1 tier, but that comparative optimization can shift tiers within the context of a specific game makes it a practical tool for play. My Sunday group has some optimization chops. If I am concerned about balance, I know that I need to be roughly within 1 tier of my colleagues. My friday game is much lower op. I know that if I play the same tier as the others, it will NOT be a balanced game. I can play a couple of tiers lower, and optimize, or play the same tier, and deliberately unoptimize myself. As a DM, if I have one optimized player, and I can encourage him to play a weaker tier, it can help solve balance issues. Knowing that shift is generally one tier, and 2 tiers in extreme cases, helps us eyeball for rough balance.

4 players, all playing classes that are T3 on the chart, but one is JaronK and one has never played before is NOT balanced. Same group with JaronK playing a commoner or ninja and the newb playing a Druid may be balanced. That's how the tiers are intended to work.