Arcane Archivist

[Bortasz]

Hello. I try to change little Archivist class from Heroes of Horror to be not Divine Spellcaster but Arcane Spellcaster.
So he will have access to all Arcane like spells. (Not only Wizard/Sorcerer list but also the Bard Spell list)

Does anybody try something like that?
Have idea how powerful such class will be? or have any idea how not make it completely broken op?

[curious-puzzle]

So...he's a wizard, but with a bigger hit die, better saves, more skill points, and more class features (that are actually quite good)?

That will be extremely powerful...what are you aiming for by converting the archivist this way, that you couldn't just do with a wizard?

[Extra Anchovies]

It's a definite buff, and not just because of the chassis. There's also stronger early-access options on the arcane side, because there are more independent-arcane-casting PrCs. The Trapsmith has a particularly notable spell list, with a lot of stuff two spell levels below where the Sor/Wiz gets it (e.g. Dispel Magic and Haste as 1st-level spells).

[Bortasz]

So...he's a wizard, but with a bigger hit die, better saves, more skill points, and more class features (that are actually quite good)?

That will be extremely powerful...what are you aiming for by converting the archivist this way, that you couldn't just do with a wizard?

I was planning on reducing Hit Dice to D4(Like wizzard) Keeping arcane failure in armor. Keeping mad that you need high Inteligent and High Wisdom to cast spells.
The biggest nerve will be in the numbers spells per day that he can cast.
I'm using the Spell Point variant http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm And was planning to give him the Bard number of spell points.

I want to have person who is truly in to dark and forbidden knowledge lore wise and have mechanic to back this stuff up. With dark knowledge feature Archivist have this stuff.

[Bortasz]

It's a definite buff, and not just because of the chassis. There's also stronger early-access options on the arcane side, because there are more independent-arcane-casting PrCs. The Trapsmith has a particularly notable spell list, with a lot of stuff two spell levels below where the Sor/Wiz gets it (e.g. Dispel Magic and Haste as 1st-level spells).

We will be mostly stick to the SRD stuff.
So Bard and Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. GM will allow me to change archivist a little but bringing to many spells from different books rather will not pass.

[ranagrande]

It will be powerful for sure, but it's still weaker than a regular Archivist, since they can already get all divine spells (including many of the best Sor/Wiz spells thanks to domains) plus any other sor/wiz spells of 6th level or lower plus any arcane spell of any level from any class that is of the Enchantment, Illusion, or Necromancy schools and/or has the Fire descriptor.

[Brova]

This is exactly a Wizard (assuming you don't use Rules Compendium). You were already allowed to learn any spell you found a scroll of. That's just a power Wizards actually had. Rules Compendium nerfed that, because apparently that was the problem with Wizards.

Have I mentioned I hate that book?

[Troacctid]

With nerfed spell points per day, I think you're probably safe. That's a pretty solid disadvantage they have compared to Wizards. Combine that with Wisdom dependence and I don't think there's any risk it'll be overpowered (at least not compared to other casters). In fact, if anything, I think it might just be flat worse than Wizard.


This is exactly a Wizard (assuming you don't use Rules Compendium). You were already allowed to learn any spell you found a scroll of. That's just a power Wizards actually had. Rules Compendium nerfed that, because apparently that was the problem with Wizards.

Have I mentioned I hate that book?

Oh get over it, it's canon. :smalltongue:

[Brova]

Oh get over it, it's canon. :smalltongue:

Honestly, it's not so much the changes. The Wizard isn't crying all that much that he can't learn awaken or planar ally without some hoops, and neither am I. The thing that offends me is that they put a bunch of minor, largely unnecessary changes in a book, then asked me to pay them actual money for it. If it was just an errata document I'd be disappointed that they didn't fix anything, but not actually offended.

[Renen]

This is exactly a Wizard (assuming you don't use Rules Compendium). You were already allowed to learn any spell you found a scroll of. That's just a power Wizards actually had. Rules Compendium nerfed that, because apparently that was the problem with Wizards.

Have I mentioned I hate that book?

Spell compendium did what now?

[Brova]

Spell compendium did what now?

Rules Compendium. The Compendiums declined rapidly after Spell.

Basically, by RAW you can scribe any spell you find a scroll of into your spellbook. Then you can prepare the spells in your spellbook. That's a power you have* just for being a Wizard. But WotC decided that doing to was broken, so Rules Compendium says the Wizard can only learn Wizard spells (IIRC, I forget the exact text). Interestingly, they did not decide that stacking extraordinary abilities (such as immunity to bludgeoning damage and immunity to non bludgeoning damage) was broken.

There's a similar exploit with lower level versions of Wizard spells that still works, depending on assumptions about how spells work.

*: Had. Most of the present tenses in this paragraph should be past.

[DrMotives]

I don't think that was a new rule, so much as a clarification they thought people understood in the PHB. I can't imagine any DM I've played allowing a wizard to scribe scrolls outside of their spell list because of a bloody oversight in the core books. Besides, core already covered how to add spells to the wizard list with research. That precludes getting a bard or whatever to scribe scrolls for you. And the later books added other ways, like Arcane Devotion feat.

[Bortasz]

This is exactly a Wizard (assuming you don't use Rules Compendium). You were already allowed to learn any spell you found a scroll of. That's just a power Wizards actually had. Rules Compendium nerfed that, because apparently that was the problem with Wizards.

Have I mentioned I hate that book?

Ee? To my knowledge you can learn any spell from Wiz/Sor list... Wizard cannot learn Bard spells to my understanding of rules.


With nerfed spell points per day, I think you're probably safe. That's a pretty solid disadvantage they have compared to Wizards. Combine that with Wisdom dependence and I don't think there's any risk it'll be overpowered (at least not compared to other casters). In fact, if anything, I think it might just be flat worse than Wizard.


Flat worse like from Tier 1 to Tier 2, or flat worse like completely useless?

[holywhippet]

From my reading the wizard can scribe any magical scroll into their spellbook regardless of arcane, divine or class restrictions. However the rules state:
A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

So even though they can scribe, for example, cure light wounds into their spellbook they can't actually cast it.

[Troacctid]

Flat worse like from Tier 1 to Tier 2, or flat worse like completely useless?

Well, let me offer you a scenario. You have the choice of playing a Wizard, or another class that's exactly the same as the Wizard in every way, except with half as many spell slots. Does it matter which tier they're in? You're never going to choose the second option.

[ranagrande]

Actually, I lied. The arcane archivist is going to be better than its normal divine counterpart. The arcane version can learn any spell from any arcane class, plus any Cleric or Druid spell.

[Thurbane]

I think this guy might give a Spell to Power Erudite a run for his money.

Not quite Beholder Mage, but getting there...

[Socratov]

I think this guy might give a Spell to Power Erudite a run for his money.

Not quite Beholder Mage, but getting there...

wait until he goes for Rainbow Servant for the full cleric list. Then it doesn't matter wether you have spellpoints or not, you can cast any spell you want, often some which have been reuced by level because of the bard list or trapsmith list.

[ranagrande]

wait until he goes for Rainbow Servant for the full cleric list. Then it doesn't matter wether you have spellpoints or not, you can cast any spell you want, often some which have been reuced by level because of the bard list or trapsmith list.

Rainbow Servant is unnecessary in this case. Thanks to the Sovereign Archetypes, there are already arcane versions of every Cleric and Druid spell.

[Chronos]

holywhippet is correct: By core RAW, a wizard can in fact copy non-wizard spells into her book, but it makes very little difference, because she can't cast them.