"How the hell would you kill this thing" challenge thread

[flamewolf393]

The idea of this thread is come up with a monster build you think is virtually impossible to kill. Bonus points for the simpler the build the better. Then post how you kill someone else creature.

I will start with this: Using the rules for customized golems, give a Stone Colossus a continuous innate ability of contingency "transmute mud to rock" with the condition trigger of "upon taking damage".

[The Viscount]

An ubercharger equipped with a 1/day item of antimagic field (or a scroll if the DM frowns at custom magic items). With antimagic field up, the colossus cannot use transmute mud to rock and can be killed from regular damage. Its initiative is -3 so it's easy enough to pounce and deal sufficient damage before the colossus acts.


I submit a regular Bleakborn, as presented in Libris Mortis.

[noob]

why not a construct familiar with the bonuses from the 3.0 third party manual who gave the possibility to give immunity to all the elements to your familiar and to make your familiar regenerate from all kind of damage except fire and acid(do someone else got that manual?)

[Jack_Simth]

I submit a regular Bleakborn, as presented in Libris Mortis.A particular PrC from Complete Warrior, "Hunter of the Dead", has a 5th level ability called "True Death" that deals with it handily (and any other self-reviving undead).

[Jormengand]

Look, we've been there (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?360693-Amkii-the-Ineffable-%283-5-Deity-If-I-stat-it-you-CAN-T-kill-it!%29). Whatever you come up with, even if it has an ability which basically reads "You can't kill this, if you would kill this you don't, and even if you could it would come back to life, and you can't stop it, and if you would stop it, you don't." can STILL BE KILLED. Just, this is D&D 3.5. Anything can die.

[Dusk Eclipse]

re: Bleakborn, wouldn't any cleric with the Sun domain be able dust the bleakborn without much trouble?

[Brova]

Should polymorphing the Bleakborn into something you can kill work?

[martixy]

Look, we've been there (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?360693-Amkii-the-Ineffable-%283-5-Deity-If-I-stat-it-you-CAN-T-kill-it!%29). Whatever you come up with, even if it has an ability which basically reads "You can't kill this, if you would kill this you don't, and even if you could it would come back to life, and you can't stop it, and if you would stop it, you don't." can STILL BE KILLED. Just, this is D&D 3.5. Anything can die.

What you're basically saying is: If it can be expressed in words, or otherwise communicated to the other individuals sharing the same imagined space, it can happen within this imagined space.
This is why an overriding authority was invented.
I'm getting tired of people trying to solve higher-level problems on game-system level.

It's like trying to parse HTML with Regex.

H̰̥̩̮͖̰̑̓͞͝e̵̷͓͇̺̩̭͈͒ͣ̽͑'̴̖̺̜̱̖̪̐̈́̄̃̑́̚s̶̶̖̄̅̅ͨ̃̾ͩ ̖̥̳̬ ̙͇̰̞͕̫̭͈̆͗͋̈͒͑̑̈g̨̲̤̺̳̳͙̲̾́̍̾ͣ̎̚o̡̙͉̬̦̾ͣ͒̂̅̏̈n̢ͫ̂͡ ͕̦͖̦n̴̜̭̺̟̳̰͚̘̬͗ͤ̽̈́͠ä͉̲͍́̍͛͑̋ͪ́͐̋ ̒ͦ̊͋͛͛҉͚͕̖̪̘G̹͍̯̝̟͈͛̃ͫ͡E̠͗T̡̮̣͇̎͋͠ ̦̯̮ͤ̎ͥ͗̀̕͘Y̢͚͎͚͔̹̌ͮͫ͊̐͌̎̾̀O̵̭̲͍͙̟͉͍̝͉͒ͯ̒́U̵̵̡̯͖̅̒ͅ ͈!ͦ̓͌̒̐͐҉͙̫̣̩̬̲̳̪

[Draconium]

Wasn't there something about applying a Lernaean template to a creature whose head wasn't attached to their body in another thread in the past?

[Renen]

Look, we've been there (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?360693-Amkii-the-Ineffable-%283-5-Deity-If-I-stat-it-you-CAN-T-kill-it!%29). Whatever you come up with, even if it has an ability which basically reads "You can't kill this, if you would kill this you don't, and even if you could it would come back to life, and you can't stop it, and if you would stop it, you don't." can STILL BE KILLED. Just, this is D&D 3.5. Anything can die.

Except an aleax Ice assassin. (Barring time travel shenanigans) :smallyuk:

[Jormengand]

Except an aleax Ice assassin. (Barring time travel shenanigans) :smallyuk:

We went over that, and it fortunately doesn't work because aleaxes and ice assassins automatically fail and anyone who tries is slapped with a DC 32 imprisonment.

[Renen]

We went over that, and it fortunately doesn't work because aleaxes and ice assassins automatically fail and anyone who tries is slapped with a DC 32 imprisonment.

Why's that?

[Jormengand]

Why's that?

"If an effect would cause another creature to gain True Immortality (including by creating a creature with True Immortality), it doesn't. Instead, any creature who dares attempt to replicate Amkii's awesome might (The creature who used the ability, not necessarily the one who might have been given True Immortality) is subject to the effects of an Imprisonment spell (DC 32). Even if a creature did gain True Immortality in this way, it would immediately lose it again."

[Socratov]

how about someone with Iron Heart Surge (the RAW version)?

[flamewolf393]

An ubercharger equipped with a 1/day item of antimagic field (or a scroll if the DM frowns at custom magic items). With antimagic field up, the colossus cannot use transmute mud to rock and can be killed from regular damage. Its initiative is -3 so it's easy enough to pounce and deal sufficient damage before the colossus acts.


I submit a regular Bleakborn, as presented in Libris Mortis.

The construction rules for golems have weird interactions when it comes to built in functions and AMFs. Their own functioning is itself immune to AMF, and anything that is made as a permanent effect of their construction shares the same immuntiy. As a permanent effect with a purely internal effect, the contingency trigger would function. Its not being cast by the colossus, its being triggered as part of its internal functioning. I know it sounds really weird, but thats how it works.

It would be like if you used a bless spell as part of the construction to give it a permanent +1 attack bonus to make its attacks count as magical. Now giving the ability to cast bless as a spell like ability would not work, but the permanent effect does.

[flamewolf393]

Wasn't there something about applying a Lernaean template to a creature whose head wasn't attached to their body in another thread in the past?

A Lernaean demilich? XD


As for the Bleakborn, just apply wisdom penalties until it is unable to make will saves then kill it.

[Renen]

"If an effect would cause another creature to gain True Immortality (including by creating a creature with True Immortality), it doesn't. Instead, any creature who dares attempt to replicate Amkii's awesome might (The creature who used the ability, not necessarily the one who might have been given True Immortality) is subject to the effects of an Imprisonment spell (DC 32). Even if a creature did gain True Immortality in this way, it would immediately lose it again."

What book is it from?
I mean unless you just made that up, in which case i have a made up ability that counters your made up ability by being more specific.

[Extra Anchovies]

Regarding Lernaean creatures, you can still get rid of them with save-or-die stuff. The template description explicitly calls out Disintegrate, Finger of Death, and Slay Living as three possible options.


how about someone with Iron Heart Surge (the RAW version)?

IHS is actually a lot more limited than it's usually made out to be, due to the "with a duration of 1 or more rounds" clause. As it's written, you can't remove effects that have a duration measured in anything other than rounds (minutes, hours, days, etc), nor can you remove effects with instantaneous or undefined durations (such as the condition of being below maximum hit points).

Also, you can just paralyze them ("To initiate a maneuver or a stance, you must be able to move", ToB p. 38) or apply a condition that prevents them from taking standard actions (nauseated, stunned, dazed). AFAIK you can even toss Dominate Person on someone and they wouldn't be able to IHS it away unless you told them to.


The construction rules for golems have weird interactions when it comes to built in functions and AMFs. Their own functioning is itself immune to AMF, and anything that is made as a permanent effect of their construction shares the same immunity. As a permanent effect with a purely internal effect, the contingency trigger would function. Its not being cast by the colossus, its being triggered as part of its internal functioning. I know it sounds really weird, but thats how it works.

It would be like if you used a bless spell as part of the construction to give it a permanent +1 attack bonus to make its attacks count as magical. Now giving the ability to cast bless as a spell like ability would not work, but the permanent effect does.

That's not quite how it works, actually. AMF only allows spell resistance when it comes into contact with a summoned creature with SR, and 3.5 updated Magic Immunity to "is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance".

Also, the effect you describe in your OP (an auto-refreshing contingent TMtR) is a permanent effect, but it still casts a spell when its trigger condition is met. The effect would likely persist within the AMF, but the spell(s) that it casts would fizzle.

[Immabozo]

It stikes me that every monster here dies to a black hole. So black hole wielding Timmy Player kills them all

1 level of commoner with the pig bonded flaw, then whatever other boring details need to be taken to qualify for 1 level of cancer mage, contract festering anger and the pig will collapse into a black hole after i year, weighing about 20^73 pounds, it collapses into a pig sized black hole and consumes all of the above monsters. I dont remember the spell's name, but there is a spell that lets someone "Exist and function normally in extreme environments" and a continuous magic item of that spell allows him to function.

this is also my submission for an unbeatable monster.

[TypoNinja]

I'm not sure having to stand next to something for a year so you can insure you both die to the blackhole is very practical.

[Extra Anchovies]

It stikes me that every monster here dies to a black hole.

1 level of commoner with the pig bonded flaw, then whatever other boring details need to be taken to qualify for 1 level of cancer mage, contract festering anger and the pig will collapse into a black hole after i year, weighing about 20^73 pounds, it collapses into a pig sized black hole and consumes all of the above monsters. I dont remember the spell's name, but there is a spell that lets someone "Exist and function normally in extreme environments" and a continuous magic item of that spell allows him to function.

The only attribute of the pig that changes is its weight, not its mass, size, or density. It's just as likely that the effects of gravity on the pig are amplified as it is that the pig actually increases in mass/density, so it's not certain if what you're suggesting even works.


this is also my submission for an unbeatable monster.

Stand more than a few inches away, and cast Baleful Transposition (or any other spell capable of teleporting an unwilling target) on the pig. Pig, now more than a few inches away from the cancer mage, turns into Orcus and skins the cancer mage. Since Orcus (formerly the pig) is no longer a pig, he stops increasing in weight and takes on a normal Orcus weight.

Or, you know, just kill the cancer mage.

On the topic of pig bonded: the flaw says that "you must at all times carry a pig" but only has Orcus show up "if more than a few inches ever separates you and the pig". Does this mean that you can push or drag the pig without Orcus showing up?

[Immabozo]

I'm not sure having to stand next to something for a year so you can insure you both die to the blackhole is very practical.

You dont get killed by the black hole and you dont need to stand by the thing for a year

[Immabozo]

The only attribute of the pig that changes is its weight, not its mass, size, or density. It's just as likely that the effects of gravity on the pig are amplified as it is that the pig actually increases in mass/density, so it's not certain if what you're suggesting even works.



Stand more than a few inches away, and cast Baleful Transposition (or any other spell capable of teleporting an unwilling target) on the pig. Pig, now more than a few inches away from the cancer mage, turns into Orcus and skins the cancer mage. Since Orcus (formerly the pig) is no longer a pig, he stops increasing in weight and takes on a normal Orcus weight.

Or, you know, just kill the cancer mage.

On the topic of pig bonded: the flaw says that "you must at all times carry a pig" but only has Orcus show up "if more than a few inches ever separates you and the pig". Does this mean that you can push or drag the pig without Orcus showing up?

please excuse the double post.

I fear that the reference to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342604-Can-you-swing-a-pig-weighing-your-max-load) amazing thread has gone unnoticed.

I cannot find the quote, so I will type my recollection of it.

the flaw says it increases in weight, but there is no mention of an increase in size, so (as you mentioned) we must assume an increase in density. After the pig weights 25^73 pounds, approximately, it will collapse into a pig-sized black hole. After the pig is a black hole, you wont be castung any spells ner it. Why? Cause its a friggin black hole

[Jormengand]

What book is it from?
I mean unless you just made that up, in which case i have a made up ability that counters your made up ability by being more specific.

I did make it up, but the reason I linked it was to point out that even if you write thousands of reasons why this thing just doesn't die, someone will still kill it.

[Renen]

Yeh not the point. The point is its fun to discuss how stuff can be beaten, especially the unbeatable stuff. Don't bring up homebrew, because I once wrote a homebrew ability that's called "Kill everything, regardless of anything". Guess what it does?

Edit: Please note I'm only saying that printing up personal homebrew in such a discussion is non sequitur, not that your opinion as a whole is not valued.

[Extra Anchovies]

I did make it up, but the reason I linked it was to point out that even if you write thousands of reasons why this thing just doesn't die, someone will still kill it.

So what? The point of this thread isn't "can X be killed?". It's "how can X be killed?", with a focus on finding simple and efficient means of killing X.


the flaw says it increases in weight, but there is no mention of an increase in size, so (as you mentioned) we must assume an increase in density.

That's not what I said. Like, at all. Just... read it again, okay?

The only attribute of the pig that changes is its weight, not its mass, size, or density. It's just as likely that the effects of gravity on the pig are amplified as it is that the pig actually increases in mass/density, so it's not certain if what you're suggesting even works.


After the pig weights 25^73 pounds, approximately, it will collapse into a pig-sized black hole. After the pig is a black hole, you wont be castung any spells ner it. Why? Cause its a friggin black hole

The "unbeatable creature" isn't a black hole, because a black hole isn't a creature. The "unbeatable creature" is a pig-bonded cancer mage with festering anger. No sweat.


You dont get killed by the black hole and you dont need to stand by the thing for a year

That's as may be, but another thing I realized is that you're going to be triggering Pelor's portfolio sense (Deities and Demigods p. 91: "[Pelor] knows when any source of light is lit or extinguished"), so he'll know about the upcoming singularity nineteen weeks before it occurs (and even if all his portfolio sense tells him is "all the lights go out", he can spontaneously cast anything from the cleric list so he'll find out what you're trying to do without any issues). Creating a black hole is a significant enough event (it does destroy the entire material plane, as per Elder Evils) that that Pelor would do something about it, so he's coming after you. And he's bringing along his at-will CL 28 Holy Word (or just a DC 45 Mass Heal to remove the disease effect). Even if he has more important things to take care of (which he won't, because "saving the plane on which essentially all of my worshippers reside" kind of takes precedence over everything), he'll just send a planetar or two your way.

Oh, and a black hole doesn't kill anything. Here's the only information we have on its effects within the game rules, from Elder Evils p. 142:

The sphere becomes a “black hole,” annihilating everything in existence. If abandoned, it picks up speed and power, drawing the island, the waters, the air and everything else on the Material Plane into its dimensional fissure, erasing all existence in 1d12+6 minutes.
So even if you can "survive in extreme conditions", you're still annihilated/erased.

[EugeneVoid]

Look, we've been there (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?360693-Amkii-the-Ineffable-%283-5-Deity-If-I-stat-it-you-CAN-T-kill-it!%29). Whatever you come up with, even if it has an ability which basically reads "You can't kill this, if you would kill this you don't, and even if you could it would come back to life, and you can't stop it, and if you would stop it, you don't." can STILL BE KILLED. Just, this is D&D 3.5. Anything can die.

This was done even earlier. Search for: Stuffy Doll vs the Playground.

[Renen]

Well, if I know my black holes (and I probably dont) light isn't technically extinguished. It just gets stuck in there. Heck, it might never even reach the pig-gole (hehe) because of the event horizon (is light affected by the event horizon?)

[martixy]

Guys...

You are threading on very dangerous territory here...

Do you really intend to go mixing physics with D&D here? Cuz it won't go well, believe me.

Also, I am extra sad no one got the reference from my previous post. What kind of geeks are you?

[Immabozo]

Yeh not the point. The point is its fun to discuss how stuff can be beaten, especially the unbeatable stuff. Don't bring up homebrew, because I once wrote a homebrew ability that's called "Kill everything, regardless of anything". Guess what it does?

Edit: Please note I'm only saying that printing up personal homebrew in such a discussion is non sequitur, not that your opinion as a whole is not valued.

This is not homebrew. It is from the samr issue of Dragon Magazine as Chicken infested, which is, technically, legal. Even if most DMs who are any kind of smart, outlaw it's use at their table


That's not what I said. Like, at all. Just... read it again, okay?


The only attribute of the pig that changes is its weight, not its mass, size, or density. It's just as likely that the effects of gravity on the pig are amplified as it is that the pig actually increases in mass/density, so it's not certain if what you're suggesting even works.

you actually contradicted yourself. So would you like to edit your statement to reflect what you mean and your indignant tone? The proper counter to my argument is "it doesn't cause magic". The logic otherwise and science is solid. If something increases in weight, but does not increase in size, the only other option is density. Once it becomes dense enough, it becomes a black hole.


The "unbeatable creature" isn't a black hole, because a black hole isn't a creature. The "unbeatable creature" is a pig-bonded cancer mage with festering anger. No sweat.

Wielding a black hole. Good luck with that.


That's as may be, but another thing I realized is that you're going to be triggering Pelor's portfolio sense (Deities and Demigods p. 91: "[Pelor] knows when any source of light is lit or extinguished"), so he'll know about the upcoming singularity nineteen weeks before it occurs (and even if all his portfolio sense tells him is "all the lights go out", he can spontaneously cast anything from the cleric list so he'll find out what you're trying to do without any issues). Creating a black hole is a significant enough event (it does destroy the entire material plane, as per Elder Evils) that that Pelor would do something about it, so he's coming after you. And he's bringing along his at-will CL 28 Holy Word (or just a DC 45 Mass Heal to remove the disease effect). Even if he has more important things to take care of (which he won't, because "saving the plane on which essentially all of my worshippers reside" kind of takes precedence over everything), he'll just send a planetar or two your way.

Oh, and a black hole doesn't kill anything. Here's the only information we have on its effects within the game rules, from Elder Evils p. 142:

So even if you can "survive in extreme conditions", you're still annihilated/erased.

As far as Pelor, that may be. And it is a good point. Although, it doesn't "make the light go out" I can see that the effects are significant enough on his portfolio sense that it would get his notice anyway. There are ways not make you undetectable to a god's portfolio sense, IIRC, not that I recall them, I just remember reading them. Like Sigil does that, I think. But good luck surviving this process under the Lady of Pain!

As far as the effects on the game of a black hole, the game states that the material plane is the most like earth, the only differences are stated in the books. Or something to that effect. Earth is in a galaxy orbiting a supermassive black hole. That establishes their existence, and the behave the way that they do in the Milky Way, and last time I checked, we had been orbiting that black hole for a bit longer than a few minutes, and last time I checked, all of existence had not been destroyed.

[Extra Anchovies]

actually contradicted yourself.

If you think I did, then you're misreading my post, intentionally or not.

"The only attribute of the pig that changes is its weight, not its mass, size, or density" establishes that weight is the only characteristic of the pig that explicitly increases as a character's Strength increases.

"It's just as likely that the effects of gravity on the pig are amplified as it is that the pig actually increases in mass/density" means exactly what it says. The rules are unclear on whether the pig increases only in weight or if it also increases in mass/density - and thus which of the two is correct is entirely up to personal interpretation.

And again, the pig can increase in weight but not in mass or density if the effects of gravity on the pig are amplified. A pig that weighs 150 lbs on Earth will weigh 350 lbs on Jupiter - its weight increases, but its mass does not.


The proper counter to my argument is "it doesn't cause magic". The logic otherwise and science is solid. If something increases in weight, but does not increase in size, the only other option is density.

The pig increasing in weight but not in mass doesn't have to be magical. After all, (Ex) abilities don't have to obey the laws of physics (PHB p. 180), and Pig Bonded already doesn't obey the laws of physics - pigs don't just spontaneously increase in weight or mass in the real world, nor do pigs who are not created through the Pig Bonded flaw, so clearly that pig functions differently from other pigs.


Once it becomes dense enough, it becomes a black hole.

This is false, actually. I'll address it below.


Wielding a black hole. Good luck with that.

Have fun wielding that black hole when it removed you (and everything else) from existence (see below).


As far as Pelor, that may be. And it is a good point. Although, it doesn't "make the light go out" I can see that the effects are significant enough on his portfolio sense that it would get his notice anyway. There are ways not make you undetectable to a god's portfolio sense, IIRC, not that I recall them, I just remember reading them. Like Sigil does that, I think. But good luck surviving this process under the Lady of Pain!

If a black hole that destroys the material plane (see below) doesn't also extinguish the lights on the material plane, then those must be some really sturdy lights.


As far as the effects on the game of a black hole, the game states that the material plane is the most like earth, the only differences are stated in the books. Or something to that effect. Earth is in a galaxy orbiting a supermassive black hole. That establishes their existence, and the behave the way that they do in the Milky Way, and last time I checked, we had been orbiting that black hole for a bit longer than a few minutes, and last time I checked, all of existence had not been destroyed.

1.
Elder Evils is the only rules source on how black holes work in 3.5.
Elder Evils establishes that a black hole, when created, expands rapidly and destroys the material plane within minutes.
Black holes don't do that in real life.
The only differences between real life and D&D are stated in the books.
∴
Black holes function differently in D&D than they do in real life.

2.
A black hole, when created, expands rapidly and destroys the material plane within minutes.
The material plane exists.
∴
There are no black holes within the material plane.


Once it becomes dense enough, it becomes a black hole.
3.
Black holes function differently in D&D than they do in real life.
There are stated rules for the creation of a black hole, as explained in Elder Evils.
The stated rules for the creation of a black hole make no mention of sufficiently dense objects transforming into black holes, or of any methods other than placing a Sphere of Annihilation into a Well of Many Worlds.
∴
The only way to create a black hole in D&D is to place a Sphere of Annihilation into a Well of Many Worlds.

[martixy]

If you think I did, then you're misreading my post, intentionally or not.

"The only attribute of the pig that changes is its weight, not its mass, size, or density" establishes that weight is the only characteristic of the pig that explicitly increases as a character's Strength increases.

"It's just as likely that the effects of gravity on the pig are amplified as it is that the pig actually increases in mass/density" means exactly what it says. The rules are unclear on whether the pig increases only in weight or if it also increases in mass/density - and thus which of the two is correct is entirely up to personal interpretation.

And again, the pig can increase in weight but not in mass or density if the effects of gravity on the pig are amplified. A pig that weighs 150 lbs on Earth will weigh 350 lbs on Jupiter - its weight increases, but its mass does not.



The pig increasing in weight but not in mass doesn't have to be magical. After all, (Ex) abilities don't have to obey the laws of physics (PHB p. 180), and Pig Bonded already doesn't obey the laws of physics - pigs don't just spontaneously increase in weight or mass in the real world, nor do pigs who are not created through the Pig Bonded flaw, so clearly that pig functions differently from other pigs.



This is false, actually. I'll address it below.



Have fun wielding that black hole when it removed you (and everything else) from existence (see below).



If a black hole that destroys the material plane (see below) doesn't also extinguish the lights on the material plane, then those must be some really sturdy lights.



1.
Elder Evils is the only rules source on how black holes work in 3.5.
Elder Evils establishes that a black hole, when created, expands rapidly and destroys the material plane within minutes.
Black holes don't do that in real life.
The only differences between real life and D&D are stated in the books.
∴
Black holes function differently in D&D than they do in real life.

2.
A black hole, when created, expands rapidly and destroys the material plane within minutes.
The material plane exists.
∴
There are no black holes within the material plane.


3.
Black holes function differently in D&D than they do in real life.
There are stated rules for the creation of a black hole, as explained in Elder Evils.
The stated rules for the creation of a black hole make no mention of sufficiently dense objects transforming into black holes, or of any methods other than placing a Sphere of Annihilation into a Well of Many Worlds.
∴
The only way to create a black hole in D&D is to place a Sphere of Annihilation into a Well of Many Worlds.

Sorry for quoting just you again, but I don't wanna bother making my post all pretty.

But since the both of you are continuing this discussion...
I'll jump in with some back-of-the-napkin physics.

Let me introduce the central concept we will be working with: Gravitational Mass vs Inertial Mass - they are different properties. What exactly the difference is I can't be bothered explaining.

1. You keep referring to the laws of physics, but fail to specify which/what laws of physics. Given D&D tradition of general unless otherwise noted and the fact that we don't really know any other set, I'll work with the ones we know about - the ones from our universe.
Well as it so happens, in our universe gravitational mass == inertial mass, as established by GR(Einstein's General Relativity theory) and confirmed by countless experiments.
Given that proposition, for the pig to increase its weight, means that the mass energy exerting gravitational force on the pig must increase. For the purposes of this discussion we'll treat the pig as an ideal point.
This subset includes all mass energy outside of the pig. Behaviour becomes undefined at this point. Which mass energy increases?
Excluding any bias as to which mass energy is affected by said effect, the simplest condition which will produce said effect is a large amount of mass energy being introduced directly below(direction opposite the weight vector's) our ideal piggy point.
IF it has not already happened, when the schwarzschild radius of local concentration of mass energy increases sufficiently it will then invariably collapse into a black hole, leading to the same result as proposed by Immabozo.

2. On the flip side... it is also possible that gravitational mass != inertial mass within another(the D&D) universe, but nothing in RAW specifies that to be the case.
In any case, Immabozo, it is theoretically possible, under a different set of physical laws, for the pig's weight to increase, without his mass energy content increasing and without a corresponding increase in surrounding mass energy.

3. Apparently black holes work differently in D&D(honestly I'm surprised you can even find those two words next to each other in a printed book).
Given that definition(silly as it is), any number of deities are likely to interfere prior to it happening.

[Immabozo]

said stuff about things

I agree with Martixy, are the words "black" and "hole", in that order, actually mentioned in a rules book? What page of Elder Evils? I would like to read it. It srrms that would have some up in the long thread brainstorming this idea that I mentioned and linked above

[erok0809]

Black holes are mentioned on page 142 of Elder Evils.

[Immabozo]

Black holes are mentioned on page 142 of Elder Evils.

thank you damn character limitations

[Extra Anchovies]

1. You keep referring to the laws of physics, but fail to specify which/what laws of physics.

By "keep referring to", you mean "mention literally one time", right? Because the only time that I've used the term "laws of physics" here is when I was paraphrasing what the PHB has to say on (Ex) abilities:

Indeed, extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical, though they may break the laws of physics.


IF it has not already happened, when the schwarzschild radius of local concentration of mass energy increases sufficiently it will then invariably collapse into a black hole, leading to the same result as proposed by Immabozo.

I already resolved this in the very post you quoted.

3.
Black holes function differently in D&D than they do in real life.
There are stated rules for the creation of a black hole, as explained in Elder Evils.
The stated rules for the creation of a black hole make no mention of sufficiently dense objects transforming into black holes, or of any methods other than placing a Sphere of Annihilation into a Well of Many Worlds.
∴
The only way to create a black hole in D&D is to place a Sphere of Annihilation into a Well of Many Worlds.
No matter the density of an object, it won't turn into a black hole if you're playing D&D.


2. On the flip side... it is also possible that gravitational mass != inertial mass within another(the D&D) universe, but nothing in RAW specifies that to be the case.
In any case, Immabozo, it is theoretically possible, under a different set of physical laws, for the pig's weight to increase, without his mass energy content increasing and without a corresponding increase in surrounding mass energy.

Well, yeah. That's what I've been saying about the gravitational effects on the pig being amplified. It doesn't even have to be under different physical laws - it doesn't have to be under any physical laws.

Indeed, extraordinary abilities do not qualify as magical, though they may break the laws of physics.


3. Apparently black holes work differently in D&D(honestly I'm surprised you can even find those two words next to each other in a printed book).

Elder Evils p. 142, as I mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19718043&postcount=26) near the bottom of the post.


Given that definition(silly as it is), any number of deities are likely to interfere prior to it happening.

Indeed. Destroying the material plane (or at least starting a chain of events that would destroy it given enough time) would likely pop Boccob's portfolio sense too, in which case you're really screwed.


I agree with Martixy, are the words "black" and "hole", in that order, actually mentioned in a rules book? What page of Elder Evils? I would like to read it. It seems that would have some up in the long thread brainstorming this idea that I mentioned and linked above

:smallconfused:

Oh, and a black hole doesn't kill anything. Here's the only information we have on its effects within the game rules, from Elder Evils p. 142:
First mention of Elder Evils in the thread is in the same post that I just quoted.

It likely didn't come up in the thread because A) Elder Evils is a fairly obscure source and B) people in the other thread probably got so caught up in the idea of a pig black hole that they didn't check whether it was actually possible under the rules (and if they did, they likely didn't check Elder Evils).

[Immabozo]

Well I'll be damned, so it does! This makes me sad. I'm sure you will forgive me, but I will continue to forget that this exists, cause the pig black hole is too funny.

[martixy]

blah-blah
:) I seem to have fallen victim to bad timing.
See, point 3 wasn't there when I read your post.

And that is a way, not the only way.
Also - quotes.
So, bozo, you don't have to forget it exists, just be nitpicky about the wording.

I should introduce black holes into my game...
and GRBs.
And CMEs that have the same effect on magic it does on electronics here.

You know... now that I think about it, physics offers so many epic adventure hooks.
Hiding artifacts in the center of a star. That sounds awesome.

[sovin_ndore]

I feel like the two logical directions for this thread to be taken would be to go into time tricks to kill Pun-Pun (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1033641) or the level inappropriate encounter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a).

[flamewolf393]

Okay kids, lets get this train back on the tracks :smallbiggrin:

... Wait. I think we came up with our next entry on the list. Gravity elementals. Would a primal gravity elemental just be a sentient black hole? And how would you kill it.

[Extra Anchovies]

How would you kill that damn crab (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) as an ECL 3 character? Try to avoid cheesing a Wish, because that's too easy.

[Eldan]

Levitate and a bag of thrown weapons?

Alternatively, Air Mephling has LA+1 and perfect flight.

Now, it has AC 19, which is difficult to hit reliably with, say, javelins. I suggest about 30 bottles of alchemist's fire, instead, that averages to over a 100 damage.

[The Viscount]

A particular PrC from Complete Warrior, "Hunter of the Dead", has a 5th level ability called "True Death" that deals with it handily (and any other self-reviving undead).
It's unclear whether hunter of the dead could kill it because bleakborn doesn't seem to actually be destroyed/die at 0 hp.


re: Bleakborn, wouldn't any cleric with the Sun domain be able dust the bleakborn without much trouble?
Embarrassingly, yes. Well done.


Should polymorphing the Bleakborn into something you can kill work?
Assuming you're using PAO, it doesn't remove Contingent Healing, so problem's still there. the above still works.

A Lernaean demilich? XD


As for the Bleakborn, just apply wisdom penalties until it is unable to make will saves then kill it.

Why would the Bleakborn not being able to make will saves allow you to kill it?



As for our Monstrous Crab, a Drow Totemist 1 with 4 ranks in handle animal, the Vermin Trainer Feat, Shape the Beast Tamer Circlet for +2 to handle animal, and an 20 Cha (18 from PB, +2 racial). Every round handle the crab to keep it down, then attack it with a standard. Or try to send the crab into a pit or something.

Similar trick is Duskling/Azurin Druid 3 with the Rootwalker ACF and shape soulmeld Beast Tamer Circlet. Total Wild Empathy mod is 11 without anything especially odd boosting it (3(level) +4 (Cha) +4(beast tamer circlet)), should be able to push the crab to indifferent, then again to friendly, then you can kill it at your leisure.

Half Fey dragonfire adept 1, use breath weapon, and scalding gust if you want, just keep out of reach.

[flamewolf393]

How would you kill that damn crab (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) as an ECL 3 character? Try to avoid cheesing a Wish, because that's too easy.

Gunslinger. 'nough said.




Why would the Bleakborn not being able to make will saves allow you to kill it?



The ability says it has to make a will save for the heat drain to keep going when it hits 0 hp. If it fails the save it ceases to work and it is truly destroyed.

[tadkins]

Probably been addressed before but I'm curious since it's been most recently on my mind.

How would you kill Asmodeus?

[Eldan]

You don't and you apologize for thinking it.

[tadkins]

You don't and you apologize for thinking it.

Never, that dude's a bastard!

[Renen]

You'd pull an orcus out you pocket and kill him with him. Then you will promptly proceed to die yourself.

[xDacY]

How about a Giant Diamond Golem?

[noob]

Level 17 apocalypse swarm wizard.

[The Viscount]

The ability says it has to make a will save for the heat drain to keep going when it hits 0 hp. If it fails the save it ceases to work and it is truly destroyed.

Has Libris Mortis been updated since the October 2004 one? My book doesn't have any mention of will saves in the Bleakborn's entire entry.

[Jack_Simth]

Has Libris Mortis been updated since the October 2004 one? My book doesn't have any mention of will saves in the Bleakborn's entire entry.

It's not in the Bleakborn entry. It's part of the undead metabolism section in chapter 2, specifically the table on page 9 and the sidebar "Variant Rule: Handling undead hunger" on page 10.

[Immabozo]

You'd pull an orcus out you pocket and kill him with him. Then you will promptly proceed to die yourself.

No, you take the pig bond flaw and you summon Porkus!

[Bad Wolf]

Probably been addressed before but I'm curious since it's been most recently on my mind.

How would you kill Asmodeus?

Hmm....

Make yourself a Beguiler 10/Rainbow Servant 10. Sneak down to Nessus, or the realm of a demon lord, and start making gates between the places. The demons see Asmodeus and start a fight. Sooner or later he gets worn down enough that it's a winnable fight. Then start chain-gating Solars.

[Eldan]

Depending on the version of Asmodeus, he has divine ranks. Which means Nessus is his realm. Which means he can stop planar travel, like gates.

That is if you ever get into Nessus undetected. Without Gate, that means planeshifting to Avernus and walking down eight layers.

The devils have stopped pretty much everyone ever getting beyond Avernus for untold Millennia. Chances are whatever you can think of, they thought of first and had to stop a Yugoloth from doing.

[fishyfishyfishy]

How would you kill that damn crab (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) as an ECL 3 character? Try to avoid cheesing a Wish, because that's too easy.

You don't send a singular ECL 3 character against a CR 3. The CR system assumes a party of 4 of equivalent level. You either pit it against four ECL 3 characters or its CR changes to reflect the actual difficulty.

[Extra Anchovies]

You don't send a singular ECL 3 character against a CR 3. The CR system assumes a party of 4 of equivalent level. You either pit it against four ECL 3 characters or its CR changes to reflect the actual difficulty.

ECL 3 against CR 3 is (nominally) a 50/50 shot.

Four ECL 3s against a CR 3 is supposed to almost always win against a CR 3, so it's (nominally) too easy. You'd only need two 3rd-level Warmages to take it down with Magic Missile spam (minimum damage 8 per cast, 10 casts per day).

[Heliomance]

Probably been addressed before but I'm curious since it's been most recently on my mind.

How would you kill Asmodeus?

The only real problem with this one (and with most challenges that don't have defences that vastly outclass their own offences) is getting into his presence. Once there, just unveil two Mirrors of Opposition.

[fishyfishyfishy]

ECL 3 against CR 3 is (nominally) a 50/50 shot.

Four ECL 3s against a CR 3 is supposed to almost always win against a CR 3, so it's (nominally) too easy. You'd only need two 3rd-level Warmages to take it down with Magic Missile spam (minimum damage 8 per cast, 10 casts per day).

I chose the wrong words before, but allow me to illustrate the point I was trying to make. For the purpose of determining xp, a singular ECL 3 vs a CR 3 is a party level .7 vs a CR 3 and grants 900 xp. This is the same xp amount that four ECL 3 characters would gain fighting a singular CR 7. It is definitely a much more challenging encounter than how are making it out to seem.

[Eldan]

I've been thinking and lowest level is probably Air Mephling Warlock 1, ECL 2. Can hover out of reach indefinitely and slowly ping it down. Invocations are pretty much irrelevant.


As for the Asmodeus question, which Asmodeus are we even talking about? First Evil? Ahriman? The Serpent? Satan's Usurper? Zargon's Usurper? Fallen Angel? Fallen Archon? God of Hell?

[Starbuck_II]

Wasn't there something about applying a Lernaean template to a creature whose head wasn't attached to their body in another thread in the past?

You are referring to a MM3 Lumi, they are immune to everything that would kill them due to the template. The only way to kill a Lernean is cut off head, but you can't kill a Lumi that way.
So you are immortal.

[The Viscount]

It's not in the Bleakborn entry. It's part of the undead metabolism section in chapter 2, specifically the table on page 9 and the sidebar "Variant Rule: Handling undead hunger" on page 10.

How does this defeat the bleakborn? The rule says when it hits 0 Wis instead of going unconscious it mindlessly pursues whatever sustains it. Since the undead are specifically called out as doing stuff and not being unconscious, it trumps the general rule, and the undead can make will saves, it simply is likely to fail them. This has nothing to do with the purported rule "The ability says it has to make a will save for the heat drain to keep going when it hits 0 hp. If it fails the save it ceases to work and it is truly destroyed." which we have yet to find.


As for Asmodeus, I'm tempted to just kill him by funneling twice his hp in damage through a jovoc, which deals the same damage deal to it to any non-tanar'ri in 30 feet. It offers a save for half, so just mailman enough damage onto it from more than 30 feet away.

[sovin_ndore]

I chose the wrong words before, but allow me to illustrate the point I was trying to make. For the purpose of determining xp, a singular ECL 3 vs a CR 3 is a party level .7 vs a CR 3 and grants 900 xp. This is the same xp amount that four ECL 3 characters would gain fighting a singular CR 7. It is definitely a much more challenging encounter than how are making it out to seem.

You are correct in that the game system is intended to give PCs the advantage of numbers and thus an expectation of victory in most fights. That said, your iconic 'mirror match' where you essentially are fighting your own character sheet or something of equivilant power to youself and by yourself... this is a CR encounter equivilant to your ECL.