Best AP to run as an inexperienced DM?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I may be getting a little more free time coming late September-early October and I'd really like to run a Pathfinder game for my gaming group, primarily so I can take a break from A:BF, I love the game, but after 5 years of playing it almost exclusively I really want to play something else.

Now, my experience as a DM is pretty limited, a couple 3.5 one shot and one Living Forgotten Realms Scenario for 4e; so I thought running an AP would be a good way to start; I mean I would have a strong frame-work to work with.

The thing is that I don't know which AP I should run, so I'm asking you guys who have played through one (or more APs) which one did you enjoy the most, why did you enjoy it, etc.

[Vhaidara]

I've generally heard good things about Curse of the Crimson Throne, and my own experiences with it, however brief due to the mortality rates of PbP, have been good.

One thing you should warn your players about though is
Gaedran Lamm, the guy who they set up as some big evil villain by making him the singular focus of all the campaign traits, is almost completely irrelevant to the AP. The purpose he serves is getting the party together and pointing them towards the castle,where the real plot takes over. The Player's Guide SERIOUSLY over hypes this guy, who is dead before you reach level 2. To the point that one of the other players wanted to take Nemesis (http://www.desktopdungeons.net/play-desktop-dungeons-beta/), naming Lamm.

[CGNefarious]

I'm currently running Rise of the Runelords as a fairly new GM. It's well written and has the benefit of having a little bit of everything for your players, with it all making sense in game. The anniversary edition is pretty cheap, and there is tons of community created content online if you feel you want to add a little more to your games. So far my players really like it, and as a DM I am really enjoying the story. I can't recommend it enough.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I've generally heard good things about Curse of the Crimson Throne, and my own experiences with it, however brief due to the mortality rates of PbP, have been good.

One thing you should warn your players about though is
Gaedran Lamm, the guy who they set up as some big evil villain by making him the singular focus of all the campaign traits, is almost completely irrelevant to the AP. The purpose he serves is getting the party together and pointing them towards the castle,where the real plot takes over. The Player's Guide SERIOUSLY over hypes this guy, who is dead before you reach level 2. To the point that one of the other players wanted to take Nemesis (http://www.desktopdungeons.net/play-desktop-dungeons-beta/), naming Lamm.}

The link in your spoiler doesn't seem to work, but thanks for the advice, I'll research into CotCT



I'm currently running Rise of the Runelords as a fairly new GM. It's well written and has the benefit of having a little bit of everything for your players, with it all making sense in game. The anniversary edition is pretty cheap, and there is tons of community created content online if you feel you want to add a little more to your games. So far my players really like it, and as a DM I am really enjoying the story. I can't recommend it enough.

The anniversary edition costs about 60$ through the Paizo store + shipping as I live in Mexico, still I've read a lot of good things about it so I'll consider it, though I probably will only get the PDF


What do you thinks about Carrion Crown? the little synopsis in the PFwiki make it sound really interesting.

[SlaadLord]

Fair warning: these impressions are all from my reading the AP in question, and from forum feedback on paizo.com; I have not actually run or played any of them.

Mummy's Mask is pretty straightforward. A few additional subsystems crop up in Books 2 and 3, but mostly it's straight dungeon crawling. It's pretty ready to run out of the box (at least, from a few read-throughs). It's the one I would run if I were to run an adventure path starting tomorrow.

Rise of the Runelords, as mentioned, is simple, classic, and quite good. Curse of the Crimson Throne...I didn't like it much, but it was well-executed technically speaking and it has been praised by people who have played through it. Shattered Star's centered entirely on dungeon crawls, to the exclusion of all else. While I liked it, and it does them very well, if that's not your cup of tea I recommend something else.

If you're looking for simple, I would recommend avoiding Skull and Shackles, Kingmaker, and Jade Reagent, all of which have either complex subsystems (S&S and Kingmaker) or require extensive reworking to make them more playable (Jade Reagent).

Council of Thieves is straightforward, but lackluster in the later levels (it is possible to get tired of fighting human rogues, you know) and the plot changes tone drastically from book 1 onward. Carrion Crown lacks campaign focus (although the individual adventures are very flavorful and would probably work OK as one-shots). Iron Gods is a personal favorite, but adding high-tech to a campaign is not everyone's cup of tea, and would require considerable bookkeeping and extra reading on the DM's part to run. Reign of Winter has been described as both very good and very challenging, and while it is technically ready to run out of the box I would recommend a little more expertise with the system than you are professing.

I can't speak for Wrath of the Righteous (having not even read the whole thing), although it integrates an additional subsystem that you'd have to learn (Mythic) and the general consensus seems to be that after book 2 it is hilariously easy if your players are moderately competent. Serpent's Skull gets very sandboxy about the middle, with a strong start and competent finish, but has been noted to require a lot of DM improvisation and out-of-session work to make it work properly/more interesting.

Final recommendation is Rise of the Runelords. The others are various shades of effort-intensive or subject to various flaws, but RotRL is a very classic D&D AP, is widely well-reviewed, and is above all else simple from a DM's perspective.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I'll second (or third?) Rise of the Runelords. The Anniversary Addition is beautiful and has pretty much everything you need in one book. I picked up a used copy for half price (it is a bit pricey); check to see if any local gaming stores have a used book section.

But yeah, it's a very 'classic' feeling campaign. There's something in it for everyone. Most of the other APs have some sort of gimmicky subsystem to worry about, but Runelords obeys the rule of KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

[Palanan]

Let me just add that I'm currently playing in Rise of the Runelords, as run by an experienced GM, and it absolutely rocks.

It can also be brutal, at least in the second and third books, and our last several combats have been near-TPKs. One of those is a rather notorious fight at the top of a clock tower in Magnimar, and we never would've survived it without a moment of epic madness from our heaviest hitter, who literally went over the edge for the rest of us.

Also, it didn't help that two of the characters had skinsaw masks and tried to murder the rest of us while we were fighting the jacked-up lamia with her crazy bevy of spells. Thank Sarenrae for orc ferocity, is all I can say.

Definitely find a used copy if you can, but I would really recommend Runelords from a player's perspective. As run by our GM, it offers a good balance of roleplaying, dungeon crawls, and layers on layers of overarching story to figure out, all following a Timetable of Evil(TM) which brings the world ever closer to catastrophe. Good times and then some.

.

[Vhaidara]

The link in your spoiler doesn't seem to work, but thanks for the advice, I'll research into CotCT

...This is what I get for recommending a game to a friend over skype while posting.

Nemesis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/story-feats/nemesis-story)

[Sayt]

What do you thinks about Carrion Crown? the little synopsis in the PFwiki make it sound really interesting.

Carrion Crown has a really cool aesthetic, and some great set pieces, but it's all over the damn place.

For instance, in book three, the party is expected to be challenged by eight flaming skeletons at about level 10 or 11, IIRC.

Then, later on in Renchurch Abbey, a character died to a Banshee's Wail, then a half hour later to a Haunt's Weird. And then the party has to fight a sizable number of Greater Shadows at once.

I'm not saying it's a bad AP: Haunting of Harrowstone, Trial of the Beast and Wake of the Watcher were all heaps of fun to run.

But Broken moon wasn't particularly, and was mostly good for interparty conflict when the lycanthropy infected Pirate/rogue want to become the werewolf king and got stopped by the party cleric of Iomedae. it was also seemed terribly easy.

Ashes at Dawn... well, half the damn book is a sidequest that doesn't actually advance the plot.

Overall, I got sick of running it halfway through Renchurch Abbey in Shadows of Gallowspire and we ditched that campaign as a group for greener pastures.

In summary, really cool, inconsistent quality, quite possibly worth it if you have time to adjust parts of it quite thoroughly.

[Kol Korran]

I haven't played most AP, but I am running Wrath of the Righteous, and it's DEFINITELY not beginner DM friendly. First, it adds the complication of mythic power and tiers, which shotos the power levels of players up considerably. It becoems a biggerproblem when the adventure, from the 3rd module or so, doesn't really compensate for that... I've been reworking nearly every batle just to make it not a joke. Also, the path includes other variant rules at times, which do not much add to the game, and are done poorly.

In short, the AP has a very cool premise, and offers a unique experience of playing practically super heroes, with powers akin to demi gods at soem point, but the AP is written poorly enough to demand quite a lot of work from the DM to make it challenging.

How about a different proposal? Since this is you first foray into DMing, I'd suggest maybe a shorter path? On the Paizo site I believe there are shorter adventures, for level 1-7/8 or so. I've played in one (PbP)- To Slay a Dragon, which was quite fun (Though more suited for PbP I think), though it can be quite brutal. I also heard quite a lot of good things about "the dragon's demand", though I've never played it.

Might be worth it trying something shorter, simpler, without full out commiting to the longer paths. If you go on the full APs, I have also heard really good things about RotRL.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Fair warning: these impressions are all from my reading the AP in question, and from forum feedback on paizo.com; I have not actually run or played any of them.

Mummy's Mask is pretty straightforward. A few additional subsystems crop up in Books 2 and 3, but mostly it's straight dungeon crawling. It's pretty ready to run out of the box (at least, from a few read-throughs). It's the one I would run if I were to run an adventure path starting tomorrow.

Rise of the Runelords, as mentioned, is simple, classic, and quite good. Curse of the Crimson Throne...I didn't like it much, but it was well-executed technically speaking and it has been praised by people who have played through it. Shattered Star's centered entirely on dungeon crawls, to the exclusion of all else. While I liked it, and it does them very well, if that's not your cup of tea I recommend something else.

If you're looking for simple, I would recommend avoiding Skull and Shackles, Kingmaker, and Jade Reagent, all of which have either complex subsystems (S&S and Kingmaker) or require extensive reworking to make them more playable (Jade Reagent).

Council of Thieves is straightforward, but lackluster in the later levels (it is possible to get tired of fighting human rogues, you know) and the plot changes tone drastically from book 1 onward. Carrion Crown lacks campaign focus (although the individual adventures are very flavorful and would probably work OK as one-shots). Iron Gods is a personal favorite, but adding high-tech to a campaign is not everyone's cup of tea, and would require considerable bookkeeping and extra reading on the DM's part to run. Reign of Winter has been described as both very good and very challenging, and while it is technically ready to run out of the box I would recommend a little more expertise with the system than you are professing.

I can't speak for Wrath of the Righteous (having not even read the whole thing), although it integrates an additional subsystem that you'd have to learn (Mythic) and the general consensus seems to be that after book 2 it is hilariously easy if your players are moderately competent. Serpent's Skull gets very sandboxy about the middle, with a strong start and competent finish, but has been noted to require a lot of DM improvisation and out-of-session work to make it work properly/more interesting.

Final recommendation is Rise of the Runelords. The others are various shades of effort-intensive or subject to various flaws, but RotRL is a very classic D&D AP, is widely well-reviewed, and is above all else simple from a DM's perspective.


I'll second (or third?) Rise of the Runelords. The Anniversary Addition is beautiful and has pretty much everything you need in one book. I picked up a used copy for half price (it is a bit pricey); check to see if any local gaming stores have a used book section.

But yeah, it's a very 'classic' feeling campaign. There's something in it for everyone. Most of the other APs have some sort of gimmicky subsystem to worry about, but Runelords obeys the rule of KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid).


Let me just add that I'm currently playing in Rise of the Runelords, as run by an experienced GM, and it absolutely rocks.

It can also be brutal, at least in the second and third books, and our last several combats have been near-TPKs. One of those is a rather notorious fight at the top of a clock tower in Magnimar, and we never would've survived it without a moment of epic madness from our heaviest hitter, who literally went over the edge for the rest of us.

Also, it didn't help that two of the characters had skinsaw masks and tried to murder the rest of us while we were fighting the jacked-up lamia with her crazy bevy of spells. Thank Sarenrae for orc ferocity, is all I can say.

Definitely find a used copy if you can, but I would really recommend Runelords from a player's perspective. As run by our GM, it offers a good balance of roleplaying, dungeon crawls, and layers on layers of overarching story to figure out, all following a Timetable of Evil(TM) which brings the world ever closer to catastrophe. Good times and then some.

.



Carrion Crown has a really cool aesthetic, and some great set pieces, but it's all over the damn place.

For instance, in book three, the party is expected to be challenged by eight flaming skeletons at about level 10 or 11, IIRC.

Then, later on in Renchurch Abbey, a character died to a Banshee's Wail, then a half hour later to a Haunt's Weird. And then the party has to fight a sizable number of Greater Shadows at once.

I'm not saying it's a bad AP: Haunting of Harrowstone, Trial of the Beast and Wake of the Watcher were all heaps of fun to run.

But Broken moon wasn't particularly, and was mostly good for interparty conflict when the lycanthropy infected Pirate/rogue want to become the werewolf king and got stopped by the party cleric of Iomedae. it was also seemed terribly easy.

Ashes at Dawn... well, half the damn book is a sidequest that doesn't actually advance the plot.

Overall, I got sick of running it halfway through Renchurch Abbey in Shadows of Gallowspire and we ditched that campaign as a group for greener pastures.

In summary, really cool, inconsistent quality, quite possibly worth it if you have time to adjust parts of it quite thoroughly.


I haven't played most AP, but I am running Wrath of the Righteous, and it's DEFINITELY not beginner DM friendly. First, it adds the complication of mythic power and tiers, which shotos the power levels of players up considerably. It becoems a biggerproblem when the adventure, from the 3rd module or so, doesn't really compensate for that... I've been reworking nearly every batle just to make it not a joke. Also, the path includes other variant rules at times, which do not much add to the game, and are done poorly.

In short, the AP has a very cool premise, and offers a unique experience of playing practically super heroes, with powers akin to demi gods at soem point, but the AP is written poorly enough to demand quite a lot of work from the DM to make it challenging.

How about a different proposal? Since this is you first foray into DMing, I'd suggest maybe a shorter path? On the Paizo site I believe there are shorter adventures, for level 1-7/8 or so. I've played in one (PbP)- To Slay a Dragon, which was quite fun (Though more suited for PbP I think), though it can be quite brutal. I also heard quite a lot of good things about "the dragon's demand", though I've never played it.

Might be worth it trying something shorter, simpler, without full out commiting to the longer paths. If you go on the full APs, I have also heard really good things about RotRL.


Well it seems the vast majority of people suggest RotRL, I'll dig in a little more to see if it is as good as you guys make it out to be.


...This is what I get for recommending a game to a friend over skype while posting.

Nemesis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/story-feats/nemesis-story)

As far as story feats go, that one is actually pretty good if you do get a villain to select.

[Vhaidara]

As far as story feats go, that one is actually pretty good if you do get a villain to select.

Well, my point is that he ISN'T a major villain, but he's so hyped that someone thought he'd be a fair selection

[Nibbens]

I've ran Rise of the Runelords as a player twice, and I'm currently running it as a DM and I've enjoyed it all three times. (well, two and a half as I'm still running it as a DM). It does some really innovative things with the players and even from a design prospective is really interesting. Particularly - tracking my players characters sins and virtues (as in seven deadly sins) in the game over a long period of play sessions and dumping it on their lap near the 3/4 point of the game has been incredible each time. That moment of "hey, you know how you think your character is a good guy, well, here's how your character has been acting" was so eyeopening as a player that it changed the way I look at the way I actually play in a game and the way I DM. Then taking these sins and virtues and making the characters into weapons specifically embodying their own sins or virtues in order to gain an advantage in the extremely tough fight at the end.... Yeah, I'm a ROTRL fan boy and I'm proud of it.

[CGNefarious]

I'm on my third time running Rise of the Runelords, and this is the first time I've gotten past book one. The characters are in a brief downtime period between sessions, and I am super excited to start book two.


As for the price of the anniversary edition, I got it for around $40 on Amazon. It's significantly cheaper than trying to buy the individual adventures.

[Nibbens]

I'm on my third time running Rise of the Runelords, and this is the first time I've gotten past book one. The characters are in a brief downtime period between sessions, and I am super excited to start book two.


As for the price of the anniversary edition, I got it for around $40 on Amazon. It's significantly cheaper than trying to buy the individual adventures.

Strangely enough, there's a good deal of new information in the Anniversary edition, but there's also a lot of fluff that has been cut out. In book two the scarecrow song, and the Attic Whisper rhyme are not included. I'm sure there's other things as well, but if you're looking for fluff, the original books might contain more info for theme building.

[CGNefarious]

Thanks for the heads up. I have them on PDF, so I'll be sure to look through them as well.