Divine Bard or Cloistered Cleric for Paladin Gish Build?

[Solaris]

To start off with, no, I'm not going to take Crusader levels. That would be mean to the rest of the party, who are not at all optimized.

I'm soon to be beginning play in a new 3.5E campaign (no Pathfinder), and the idea occurred to me to run a paladin.
Not just any paladin, though - an Intelligent paladin, so I can put my extensive metagame knowledge and genre-savviness to use with in an in-character justification. The character concept is essentially a heroic paladin who leads by example and inspires others with words and deeds. He's probably going to be running into the middle of fights and beating on bad guys with his sword, so I'm interested in a chassis and spells that support that.

Our party is an archery-based ranger, a monk/cleric, and a dwarven fighter/rogue. My wife is also joining, and she's playing a homebrewed class that essentially combines a blaster sorcerer with aspects of the battle dancer and pyrokineticist. Everyone's beginning at 4th level. I am led to believe that most of the other players are not the highest optimization level, so I'm more interested in a character that can make the others look good more than one that can show them up. Because of the resultant exacerbation of MAD by drawing a reliance on the paladin's traditional dump stat, I'm looking for ways to switch as much as possible onto the character's Intelligence score or remove a reliance on high ability scores altogether.

Right now, the build I have is essentially two levels of divine bard, then two levels of paladin. I could take the Harmonious Knight substitution at 1st level instead of bard, as detect evil isn't the paladin's most useful ability, but the bard is useful to me both for its spells and for its skill ranks. I need them skills for Knowledge. I've taken Academic Priest from Legends of the Twins, which switches some of the divine bard's spellcasting over to Intelligence (with the net result that bonus spells per day and max spell level are Int-based, while save DCs are still Cha-based; this is acceptable as the paladin has Cha-based class features), and the Education feat to pump my Knowledge more. The last feat is probably going to be Servant of the Heavens, and if human Power Attack as well so as to set up qualifications for Fist of Raziel. Naturally, I took a couple of flaws to get the extra couple of feats (he doesn't hit girls, and ranged weapons are beneath his dignity).

Instead of bard, however, I could opt for cloistered cleric. That's an outright improvement to the power level, what with the cleric spells, DMM: Persist, domains, and prestige class options. Unfortunately, it doesn't have the theme of inspiration that I'm looking for. It would also let me take Knowledge Devotion without using one of my feat slots, however, which makes it really attractive.

That's my conundrum: Should I take divine bard, and use inspire courage (and inspire greatness, if I manage to get my paws on a vest of legends), or should I take cloistered cleric and have a better spell list?

[LooseCannoneer]

Suggestion: move your character focus to WIS, then take Serenity and Intuitive Attack. That will move everything but damage rolls to Wisdom.

Besides, using metagame knowledge is more of a thing for high WIS. More of a "by now, they'd be doing x" scenario.

[Cerefel]

I think you should go cloistered cleric because what you seem to be trying to add to your build with multiclassing is intelligence, and a class that is described as spending a lot of time studying makes sense for that. There are also domains that can add to your ability to inspire if you really want more of that to come from your second class. Namely the nobility domain.

EDIT: I just noticed something that makes the whole argument moot anyway. Even divine bards can't be lawful. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard)

[Solaris]

After banging on the build, I reached the conclusion that it really wanted to be two different builds. It's possible to make a passable inspiring/smart divine bard 2 / paladin 2 with the use of flaws and judicious items, but I really wasn't satisfied with how far I had to stretch build resources to make it work.

Thus, I'm splitting it into two separate builds. The first is the inspiring paladin (I know about the Forgotten Realms ACF, but I tend to avoid using setting-specific material unless there's no alternative) going divine bard/paladin/fist of Raziel (ending up with the mount of a 19th-level paladin thanks to the Holy Mount feat and FoR progressing bardic casting), while the other will be a cloistered cleric/paladin with Serenity and Knowledge Devotion.


Suggestion: move your character focus to WIS, then take Serenity and Intuitive Attack. That will move everything but damage rolls to Wisdom.

That's what I'll be doing with the cloistered cleric version of the build.


Besides, using metagame knowledge is more of a thing for high WIS. More of a "by now, they'd be doing x" scenario.

Knowledge is not Wisdom. Common sense is Wisdom. Knowing a monster's stats and abilities is Int-based, knowing when you should and should not pick a fight with it is Wisdom.

I don't consider genre-savviness and good judgment to be metagaming, I consider them to be survival traits.


I think you should go cloistered cleric because what you seem to be trying to add to your build with multiclassing is intelligence, and a class that is described as spending a lot of time studying makes sense for that. There are also domains that can add to your ability to inspire if you really want more of that to come from your second class. Namely the nobility domain.

Agreed.


EDIT: I just noticed something that makes the whole argument moot anyway. Even divine bards can't be lawful. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard)

They can with the Devoted Performer feat from Complete Adventurer.

[Nifft]

To start off with, no, I'm not going to take Crusader levels. That would be mean to the rest of the party, who are not at all optimized. Just to play Ba'ator's Advocate, let me point out that a Crusader // Bard could heal and buff the rest of the party as he sings and smites across the battlefield.

In other words, I think you could easily optimize around making your party awesome with a Crusader. White Raven is really good for that. Stuff like White Raven Tactics, very much about using your resources to make your friends awesome... and then Song of the White Raven makes you and them even more awesome.

Basically, go Devoted Spirit / White Raven, and use your actions to stab-and-heal or stab-and-buff.

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@Cerefel: If he's using Divine Bard, then he might have access to Paladin of Freedom.

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[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Solaris
Thus, I'm splitting it into two separate builds.

Would you be willing to post the details of both builds? I'd be interested to see where you take them.

[Solaris]

Just to play Ba'ator's Advocate, let me point out that a Crusader // Bard could heal and buff the rest of the party as he sings and smites across the battlefield.

In other words, I think you could easily optimize around making your party awesome with a Crusader. White Raven is really good for that. Stuff like White Raven Tactics, very much about using your resources to make your friends awesome... and then Song of the White Raven makes you and them even more awesome.

Basically, go Devoted Spirit / White Raven, and use your actions to stab-and-heal or stab-and-buff.

Huh. I hadn't thought about that. I'm not averse to ToB itself (I rather like it, and my own game's houserules make it a lot more prevalent by working it into almost all of the non-casting classes), just leery about giving this group a bad first impression of it by duplicating what my Warblade did in another game (short version, everything died). That's a pretty big derp on my part; I think I'll have to look into working at least some crusader into the build.


Would you be willing to post the details of both builds? I'd be interested to see where you take them.

They're not entirely complete, but here's what I have thus far:

If you're playing with flaws, pick up Chivalrous Courtesy to get Mounted Combat at 1st level. If you want the DM to throw his DMG at you, might not be a bad idea to go silverbrow human and look into working Dragonfire Inspiration into the build. This doesn't (yet) have any crusader worked into it.

It ends up with a 19th-level paladin's mount (assuming level 20 is a divine casting class, 18th-level if it isn't and the class isn't paladin - but there's no mechanical difference between the two), smiting at a +20 to damage with all the goodies FoR adds onto the smite, has a permanent magic circle against evil effect, has the music abilities of a 4th-level bard (and if you get the vest of legends, the ability to inspire greatness), but Song of the Heart and the use of inspirational boost with the badge of valor keep the inspire courage at least somewhat relevant. It also casts as a 13th-level bard by level 19, making it a backup caster at best. I didn't pick up Snowflake Wardance on account of wanting to get more mileage out of Power Attack and make use of two-handed weapons.

I intend for his mount to be a griffon, as the flying critter is rather useful and ends up with around 15 HD, which shouldn't leave it too vulnerable. I haven't decided whether I want to try equipping it (which makes the character's WBL sad) or having it pick up Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty (which might get a DMG thrown at me).

I don't solve MAD with this build; it needs at least a 12 Wisdom and ought to have a decent Charisma and Strength scores to work well. Because it's a divine bard, arcane spell failure doesn't apply and thus he can wear heavy armor.

The way I intend to play it, the character build is fairly simple (I don't want the first build I bring to a DM's table to be something that dips in fourteen different classes and fifteen different books), with most of the party-boosting early on and heroic paladinning later on. My balance point was somewhere around T3, which I think it manages. It's no A-Game paladin, but I kinda like 'im.

Race: Human
Alignment: NG (levels 1 and 2) to LG (level 3 and onward). I wrote him as a well-meaning but undisciplined screw-up who had a come-to-Heironeous moment and became a paladin.

Items sought: Badge of Valor and later Vest of Legends. In essence, use items to supplement the character's ability to inspire courage.

Divine Bard 1; Power Attack, Servant of the Heavens
DBard 2
DBard 2 / Paladin of Honor 1; Devoted Performer
DBard 2 / Pal 2
DBard 2 / Pal 3
DBard 3 / Pal 3; Song of the Heart
DBard 3 / Pal 4
DBard 4 / Pal 4
DBard 4 / Pal 5; Holy Mount (Note: Max Perform to 12 ranks at this level so I can get Inspire Greatness with a Vest of Legends from the DMG II)
DBard 4 / Pal 5 / Fist of Raziel 1
DBard 4 / Pal 5 / FoR 2 (Improve bard spellcasting so the mount continues to advance)
DBard 4 / Pal 5 / FoR 3; Divine Might
DBard 4 / Pal 5 / FoR 4
DBard 4 / Pal 5 / FoR 5
DBard 4 / Pal 5 / FoR 6; FEAT
DBard 4 / Pal 5 / FoR 7
DBard 4 / Pal 5 / FoR 8
DBard 4 / Pal 5 / FoR 9; FEAT
DBard 4 / Pal 5 / FoR 10
I'm at a loss for what to do with 20th level. If you'll note, I haven't bothered picking out feats at 15th and 18th levels; I honestly don't expect the game to get up that high.

With the Intelligence-based paladin, I haven't gotten much farther than:
Cloistered cleric dip (Knowledge Devotion, naturally), with the feats Educated and Serenity (I used to have Academic Priest from Legends of the Twins, but that'd essentially make the class reliant on having all three good mental ability scores while needing decent physical ability scores). It's less of a full build and more of a trick, although I'm kinda leaning towards making it a rogue/paladin multiclass from there and going into something like the shadowbane inquisitor to keep playing on the 'smart guy' theme.

[Nifft]

Huh. I hadn't thought about that. I'm not averse to ToB itself (I rather like it, and my own game's houserules make it a lot more prevalent by working it into almost all of the non-casting classes), just leery about giving this group a bad first impression of it by duplicating what my Warblade did in another game (short version, everything died). That's a pretty big derp on my part; I think I'll have to look into working at least some crusader into the build.

It doesn't have to be Crusader -- you can do the "lazy warlord" build with a Warblade, since all it needs is White Raven -- but Crusader is good synergy, and lets you fill the secondary healer role really nicely.

Your actions will:
- Give your allies more bonuses (e.g. Lion's Roar gives them all +5 damage, or Swarm Tactics gives everyone EXCEPT you a +5 to hit any enemy to which you're adjacent).
- Give your allies more actions (e.g. White Raven Tactics lets someone else get another turn, or Order Forged from Chaos which lets all your allies get to move instead of you getting a move action).
- Heal yourself or your friends when you hit.

Plus, the levels will all stack for Bardic Inspiration, which is awesome for the whole party.

It's like you're playing a buff Cohort, except you also get to kick a moderate amount of ass on your action.

[Silvrfox]

Cloistered cleric, with protection devotion, knowledge devotion, maybe nobility domain. Get cleric casting up a bit and get prayer to add to party buffing and in game, inspiring. Archivist is also an option, divine casting and party buffing/inspiring, but int to cast. Since charop isnt priority, its all about the flavor you want.

[Hiro Quester]

DBard 4 / Pal 5; Holy Mount (Note: Max Perform to 12 ranks at this level so I can get Inspire Greatness with a Vest of Legends from the DMG II)


4 levels of Divine Bard and a VOL won't get you Inspire greatness, though it will improve your inspire courage. Vest of Legends only imprives the effectiveness (by 5 bard levels) of the bardic music abilities you already have. It doesn't grant new ones.


Her bard level is treated as five higher than it actually is for the purpose of determining the effects of her inspire courage, fascinate, inspire greatness, and inspire heroics abilities. This increase in effective level does not grant her any additional bardic music abilities or other class features.

Edit: Seconding the recommendation of Bardsader. The synergy is awesome. The Song of the White raven feat your crusader levels stack with Bard levels for Inspire courage.

White raven tactics does indeed give you lots of opportunities to boost your party members' abilities. You are a buffer, who also tanks and kicks butt.

But this requires standard (not divine) bard for CHA synergy.

If you are worried about too much optimization (like your warblade), it's easy to focus a Bardsader on buffing and tanking rather than damage dealing. You can be the one who stands between the bad guys and your squishy colleagues, and stops them from being pounded into oblivion.

[Vaz]

Divine Bard is still Arcane casting though, isn't it?

[Darrin]

Divine Bard is still Arcane casting though, isn't it?

No, hence the "Divine" adjective. You may be thinking of the Bardic Sage, which still casts arcane spells.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Solaris
*Inspiring Paladin*

That's very cool, thanks. Now I want to play this character. :smalltongue:

I assume you're taking four levels of bard to get second-level spells, rather than entering Fist of Raziel as a Bard 2/Paladin 5. Which of those second-level spells would be important enough to delay entry into FoR?


Originally Posted by Vaz
Divine Bard is still Arcane casting though, isn't it?


Originally Posted by Darrin
No, hence the "Divine" adjective.

The Divine Bard can't cast lawful spells, though. Would this crimp anything on the paladin side? Or are the paladin spells too minor to be concerned with here?

[Vaz]

No, hence the "Divine" adjective. You may be thinking of the Bardic Sage, which still casts arcane spells.

I am indeed, thanks! I have a player in a local who uses a Bard worshipper of a music deity, uses Bardic Sage.

[Solaris]

4 levels of Divine Bard and a VOL won't get you Inspire greatness, though it will improve your inspire courage. Vest of Legends only improves the effectiveness (by 5 bard levels) of the bardic music abilities you already have. It doesn't grant new ones.

I'm pretty sure I can swing the interpretation that it does grant those abilities which it specifically states it improves, with the argument that it specifies the abilities it improves and that it doesn't grant any additional abilities not specified.
If not... meh, that's a lot of gold my character gets to spend on something that benefits him rather than on something that benefits the rest of the party.

The character's hit play at 4th level, so I'm not keen to be multiclassing into crusader just yet.


I assume you're taking four levels of bard to get second-level spells, rather than entering Fist of Raziel as a Bard 2/Paladin 5. Which of those second-level spells would be important enough to delay entry into FoR?

Glitterdust and invisibility, mostly. There's also Song of the Heart's inspire competence requirement (hence why level three comes at ECL six), and the need to get bard to level four because of the, ah, creative reading of vest of legends. Without the vest of legends, I don't really have a need for bard at all after third level.


The Divine Bard can't cast lawful spells, though. Would this crimp anything on the paladin side? Or are the paladin spells too minor to be concerned with here?

Well, it says that they can't cast lawful spells because they can't cast spells opposed to their alignment. Being as the character is a Lawful Good bard by means of the Devoted Performer feat, I reason that restriction is obviated (although I'm not going to try arguing they should have the corresponding lawful spells on their spell list; the spells opposing evil are more than enough for me). With that in mind, I don't think the paladin's spell list is restricted.

That said, the only reason I haven't replaced the paladin spellcasting with Divine Might via ACF is because Fist of Raziel needs the ability to cast a spell that's on the paladin list but not the divine bard list.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you really want to have Int be relevant to a paladin, Sword of the Arcane Order is your friend. You could also try an Archivist-based Gish build (Archivist 4/Ordained Champion 5/Fist of Raziel 10), but that won't really be going by 4th level, and won't have literal paladin levels.

[GilesTheCleric]

Well, it says that they can't cast lawful spells because they can't cast spells opposed to their alignment. Being as the character is a Lawful Good bard by means of the Devoted Performer feat, I reason that restriction is obviated (although I'm not going to try arguing they should have the corresponding lawful spells on their spell list; the spells opposing evil are more than enough for me). With that in mind, I don't think the paladin's spell list is restricted.

That said, the only reason I haven't replaced the paladin spellcasting with Divine Might via ACF is because Fist of Raziel needs the ability to cast a spell that's on the paladin list but not the divine bard list.

I don't have a combined bard/paladin list, but it looks like between the cleric/paladin lists, the only spells with [lawful] are:
axiomatic water
protection from chaos
checkmate's light
turn anathema
axiomatic storm
loyal vassal
Magic Circle vs Chaos
dispel chaos
summon bearded devil
summon hound archon
wall of law
call zelekhut
sun sceptre
weight of sin
call kolyarut
dictum
shield of law
call marut
heavenly host
hellish horde
You're not missing much.