Tome of Battle Martial Adept Initiator Levels, Maneuvers, and TWFing Unarmed Strikes

[Enyo]

After deciding that the unarmed swordsage/psychic warrior was a bust, I went back to the drawing board. I ended up revisiting the idea of multiclassing into warblade, but I've run into another set of questions and problems on making a character who's a mobile damage dealer who can provide some support for teammates since I was chosen as the leader of the group.

How many 9th level maneuvers can I learn from going Swordsage 14/Warblade 6? How much am I missing from damage if I don't go straight into either? What's my hit die as a multiclass martial adept? In the event that I decide that I should go straight into the former, how can I even help allies at all?

[BowStreetRunner]

First off, part of the answer to your question depends on what order you take levels in each class. At the time you take each level your current initiator level determines the highest level maneuvers available to you. So a Swordsage 14/X 6 will at 20th level have an initiator level of 17, but if all 6 of the other levels were taken after the Swordsage levels then the last maneuver Swordsage picked up would have been a maximum of 7th. Likewise, a Warblade 6/X 14 will have a final initiator level of 13, but that doesn't necessarily mean access to 7th level maneuvers.

One of the most helpful solutions in these sorts of builds is Prestige Classes that advance Initiator levels. These will advance Initiator levels for both Martial Adept classes simultaneously, although the maneuvers and stances gained have to be added to one or the other. So Swordsage 9/Warblade 6/Master of Nine 5 is going to have a higher initiator level in both classes (at 20th SS=17 and WB=15).

[Extra Anchovies]

SS 14/WB 6, taken in that order, doesn't give you any 9th-level maneuvers. You'd get 7th-level SS maneuvers and 7th-level WB maneuvers.

WB 6/SS 14 would get 3rd-level WB maneuvers and 9th-level SS maneuvers, though.

Your hit dice would be 6 d10s and 14 d8s.

If you want a mobile damage character with some support, I recommend pure Swordsage. Pick up Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse, and Adaptive Style, plus maybe Gloom Razor; after that, take whatever you want.. Focus on strikes and counters. If you want maneuver selection help I can toss together a quick progression for a pure Swordsage.

[Enyo]

The reason why I want to multiclass is because of the Iron Heart and White Raven maneuvers like Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics, so I guess I'll consider going the prestige class for the access to higher level maneuvers if the campaign goes on long enough.


SS 14/WB 6, taken in that order, doesn't give you any 9th-level maneuvers. You'd get 7th-level SS maneuvers and 7th-level WB maneuvers.

WB 6/SS 14 would get 3rd-level WB maneuvers and 9th-level SS maneuvers, though.

Doesn't WB get 6th-level maneuvers because of SS 14 being worth 7 Initiator levels?

And which is the best 9th level swordsage maneuver in your opinion?

[BowStreetRunner]

Doesn't WB get 6th-level maneuvers because of SS 14 being worth 7 Initiator levels?
SS14 is worth 7 IL to WB, plus WB 6 = IL 13 which nets 7th level maneuvers at WB 6th. While WB 6th does not actually learn a new maneuver, as an even-numbered WB level after 4th you can learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know. So you would get one 7th level maneuver.

[Enyo]

SS14 is worth 7 IL to WB, plus WB 6 = IL 13 which nets 7th level maneuvers at WB 6th. While WB 6th does not actually learn a new maneuver, as an even-numbered WB level after 4th you can learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know. So you would get one 7th level maneuver.

Oh...

Yeah, I'll definitely want to go the Master of Nine route.

Would dipping a few levels in Crusader be stretching myself too thin?

[BowStreetRunner]

Would dipping a few levels in Crusader be stretching myself too thin?

You can dip into whatever you want, just remember that your IL = A + B + C/2 where A is your base class, B is any prestige classes that grant IL, and C is any other class including other Martial Adept classes. So if you take SS 14 / WB 6 and change it to SS 12 / WB 6 / CR 2 then WB is unchanged but SS loses 1 IL while you pick up IL 11 in CR.

There is an old build floating around somewhere that was something like Swordsage 2/Crusader 2/Warblade 1/Shadow Sun Ninja 10/Master of Nine 5 which gave IL 18 in all three classes but relied on magic items to actually get all of the maneuvers.

[Extra Anchovies]

The reason why I want to multiclass is because of the Iron Heart and White Raven maneuvers like Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics, so I guess I'll consider going the prestige class for the access to higher level maneuvers if the campaign goes on long enough.

If those are the only two non-Swordsage maneuvers that you want, you'll want to do one of two things:
Swordsage 8/Warblade 2/Swordsage +10, taking Leading the Attack, Wall of Blades and White Raven Tactics at 9th level, and Iron Heart Surge at 10th level
Swordsage 8/Warblade 1/Swordsage +11, learning Leading the Attack, Wall of Blades and White Raven Tactics through Warblade levels and learning Iron Heart Surge by taking Martial Study at 9th level
Which option is better depends on whether you have a feat to spare.


And which is the best 9th level swordsage maneuver in your opinion?

Oh man, that's a tough choice. I'll go over all of them.

Inferno Blast is reflex half, and fire resistance/immunity is common enough at that level that you shouldn't use attacks that deal only fire damage.
Time Stands Still is pretty darn good, but only if you invest some other build resources into full attacks. It can get scary if you combine it with Inferno Blade, Assassin's Stance, and the Craven feat, because then you're adding 5d6+40 to all of your attacks.
Tornado Throw has an arbitrarily high damage potential (capped only by your speed), but the damage won't be too impressive if you don't have many reliable speed increases.
Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike has the coolest name, but the effects are semi-random and there's a Fortitude save to resist the rider effects. Much of the time you'll just be dealing +15d6 damage, which looks like a lot but averages to 53.
Mountain Tombstone Strike's 2d6 Constitution damage results in an average HP reduction of 3.5 per HD, which doesn't look like much but can actually be pretty solid. The average CR 20 dragon will lose 105 HP from this. Immunity to ability damage and/or lack of a Con score are both common at high levels, though, and there's a chance that this maneuver won't actually do much.
Feral Death Blow requires a skill check to function, but if you've been investing in the Jump-based Tiger Claw stuff (which you should be doing, because they're great), you won't be failing. It's a save-or-die, and if they make the save they take an extra 20d6 over your normal attack damage. The save is Strength-based, though, so it's much better for THF Warblades than for a Dex-focused Swordsage.

From best to worst, it's probably Time Stands Still, Feral Death Blow, Tornado Throw, Mountain Tombstone Strike, Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike, and then Inferno Blast.

[Enyo]

You can dip into whatever you want, just remember that your IL = A + B + C/2 where A is your base class, B is any prestige classes that grant IL, and C is any other class including other Martial Adept classes. So if you take SS 14 / WB 6 and change it to SS 12 / WB 6 / CR 2 then WB is unchanged but SS loses 1 IL while you pick up IL 11 in CR.

There is an old build floating around somewhere that was something like Swordsage 2/Crusader 2/Warblade 1/Shadow Sun Ninja 10/Master of Nine 5 which gave IL 18 in all three classes but relied on magic items to actually get all of the maneuvers.

If I were to go SS 9/WB 5/CR 1/Mo9 5, is my WB IL 15 if one can add the last point from SS 9 and CR 1 to make it one whole point or is it a "closed system" between each class?

I find Shadow Sun Ninja a bit too out there flavor-wise, and I don't think the DM's the generous type to give out magic items.


If those are the only two non-Swordsage maneuvers that you want, you'll want to do one of two things:
Swordsage 8/Warblade 2/Swordsage +10, taking Leading the Attack, Wall of Blades and White Raven Tactics at 9th level, and Iron Heart Surge at 10th level
Swordsage 8/Warblade 1/Swordsage +11, learning Leading the Attack, Wall of Blades and White Raven Tactics through Warblade levels and learning Iron Heart Surge by taking Martial Study at 9th level
Which option is better depends on whether you have a feat to spare.



Could I also use Martial Study to take Devoted Spirit maneuvers/stances like Rallying Strike and Tide of Chaos, or is it restricted between what I know from swordsage and warblade?

[BowStreetRunner]

If I were to go SS 9/WB 5/CR 1/Mo9 5, is my WB IL 15 if one can add the last point from SS 9 and CR 1 to make it one whole point or is it a "closed system" between each class?Your WB IL would indeed be 15. You add all your non-WB/non-IL PrC levels together and divide those by 2.


Could I also use Martial Study to take Devoted Spirit maneuvers/stances like Rallying Strike and Tide of Chaos, or is it restricted between what I know from swordsage and warblade?You can use Martial Study to take any maneuver for which you meet the prerequisites, regardless of class. Note that if you take it before you take levels in a martial adept class, your IL for the maneuver becomes 1/2 your CL and you do not get a recovery method. However, if you take it after you take levels in a martial adept class it simply becomes a new maneuver known for that class, although you can not swap it out at higher levels like other maneuvers known. So a Warblade with an IL of 2 could take Foehammer with Martial Study this way.

You can also take Martial Stance to take any stance for which you meet the prerequisites, regardless of class. Your IL is going to be equal to your levels in all martial adept classes + 1/2 all other levels. So any stance your SS 9/WB 5/CR 1/Mo9 5 takes with Martial Stance would have an IL of 20. Note that you have to have at least one maneuver in the discipline already, so if a Warblade wants to take Martial Spirit he would need to use Martial Study to pick up a Devoted Spirit maneuver first.

[marphod]

WB 6/SS 14 would get 3rd-level WB maneuvers and 9th-level SS maneuvers, though.

Your hit dice would be 6 d10s and 14 d8s.

Nitpick: 6 d12s, not d10s.

---

As for the question of what the best 9th level maneuvers are:

Strike of Righteous (Devoted Spirit) -- Heal on hit
Time Stands Still (Diamond Mind) -- Take 2 Full Attacks
Tornado Throw (Setting Sun) -- Move and Throw a lot.
Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike (Shadow Hand) -- The name is cool enough to justify it. =) (Also arbitrary stat damage)
War Master's Charge (White Raven) -- if you are party based only -- your entire party charges, does extra damage.

Mountain Tombstone Strike (Stone Dragon) can be nice, but requires you or the target being on the ground. Which is not certain at high level. Inferno Blast and Strike of Perfect Clarity just deal extra damage, which isn't really the problem that a high level martial adept needs to solve. Feral Death Blow is a save-or-die (and take lots of damage if you save), which is way too late for a martial adept and again, isn't the general problem.

I find the 8th level stances and some of the maneuvers to be much more interesting than the 9th.

[Enyo]

Two questions about switching maneuvers:

Does one go by the initiator level or the ECL when one switches maneuvers?

Can you switch maneuvers while you're in a prestige class by pretending it counts as a martial adept level or does it not count?

[BowStreetRunner]

Does one go by the initiator level or the ECL when one switches maneuvers?

Can you switch maneuvers while you're in a prestige class by pretending it counts as a martial adept level or does it not count?

If you are referring to the mechanic where upon reaching 4th level and every even numbered level after that you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know, this is based on Class Level, not character level nor initiator level. (So WB 4,6,8,etc... or SS 4,6,8,etc... or CR 4,6,8,etc...)

Note that a maneuver learned through Martial Study cannot be replaced this way. However the maneuvers learned through your classes (or prestige classes) appear to all be fair game. So for instance there is no rule preventing you at Warblade 6 from learning a new warblade maneuver in place of a Swordsage maneuver that you replace.

[Enyo]

Note that a maneuver learned through Martial Study cannot be replaced this way. However the maneuvers learned through your classes (or prestige classes) appear to all be fair game. So for instance there is no rule preventing you at Warblade 6 from learning a new warblade maneuver in place of a Swordsage maneuver that you replace.

I mean can you use master of nine levels to switch maneuvers by pretending that it's another swordsage or warblade level?

[BowStreetRunner]

I mean can you use master of nine levels to switch maneuvers by pretending that it's another swordsage or warblade level?
No. Only class levels. Master of Nine increases your Initiator Level but not your Class Level. The only thing I can think of that would increase your Class Level in Warblade outside of another level in Warblade would be something like Uncanny Trickster or Legacy Champion.

[torrasque666]

I mean can you use master of nine levels to switch maneuvers by pretending that it's another swordsage or warblade level?

Mo9 levels != Swordsage levels, so no. Its a class specific mechanic utilizing only your class levels in the specific class.

[Enyo]

So switching out maneuvers is exclusively a class level thing even though the maximum level you can pick is determined by IL?

[torrasque666]

So switching out maneuvers is exclusively a class level thing even though the maximum level you can pick is determined by IL?
Yep, just like how a sorcerer can only swap out their spells with the right number of sorcerer levels.

[Enyo]

Is it required to pick a 1st level stance upon entering a level in a secondary class or can one pick whatever they qualify for?

[BowStreetRunner]

Is it required to pick a 1st level stance upon entering a level in a secondary class or can one pick whatever they qualify for?

It depends on your DM. RAW, each of the three base classes includes wording that you begin play with one 1st level stance of a discipline appropriate to that class. Some DMs consider that RAI since you can begin with a higher IL you could start with a higher level stance. However, while it is worth asking, it's not a point worth arguing if they insist that your first stance must be 1st level.

[Enyo]

That's two big questions so far.

Is the switching maneuver thing determined by class or character level?

[torrasque666]

That's two big questions so far.

Is the switching maneuver thing determined by class or character level?
As we've repeatedly mentioned, its a class level thing. All of the Initiator Classes call out the specific class levels.


Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered swordsage level after that (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know.


Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered crusader level after that (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know.



Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered warblade level after that (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), you can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one you already know.

[Enyo]

When choosing maneuvers as a master of nine, is one able to pick which recovery method it uses if it's the same maneuver for swordsage and warblade?

[BowStreetRunner]

When choosing maneuvers as a master of nine, is one able to pick which recovery method it uses if it's the same maneuver for swordsage and warblade?

When choosing a maneuver for any PrC that grants maneuvers you need to add that maneuver to you known maneuvers for one of the base classes you possess. So when a SS/WB/Mo9 gains a maneuver at the first level of Mo9 he must assign it to either SS or WB. It is then considered either a SS or WB maneuver and cannot be changed later. He can assign his first Mo9 maneuver to one class and his second to another if he so chooses, but once each is assigned it follows the rules of the class to which he assigned it.

[Enyo]

Does that also apply to Martial Study or is it illegal?

[BowStreetRunner]

Does that also apply to Martial Study or is it illegal?

As I stated previously:

You can use Martial Study to take any maneuver for which you meet the prerequisites, regardless of class. Note that if you take it before you take levels in a martial adept class, your IL for the maneuver becomes 1/2 your CL and you do not get a recovery method. However, if you take it after you take levels in a martial adept class it simply becomes a new maneuver known for that class, although you can not swap it out at higher levels like other maneuvers known. So a Warblade with an IL of 2 could take Foehammer with Martial Study this way.
So a SS/WB who learns a maneuver through Martial Study has to assign it as a maneuver known to either SS or WB. The only difference from a normal maneuver after that is that it is never eligible to be retrained into another maneuver.

[Enyo]

Sorry about that, I kind of get a bit lost with juggling all the types of levels.

I need help deciding whether to pick between One With Shadow or Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip since I feel like I'll miss out on survivability through being incorporeal versus Using Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose for multiple attacks.

Here is my build so far:

1)SS1: Moment of Perfect (Mind DM 1),Charging Minotaur (SD 1), Shadow Blade Technique (SH 1), Mighty Throw (SS 1), Sudden Leap (TC 1), Counter Charge (SS 1), Child of Shadow (SH Stance)
2)SS2: Distracting Ember(DW 1), Island of Blades (SH Stance)
3)SS3: Cloak of Deception (SH 2)
4)SS4: Montain Hammer (SD 2)
5)SS5: Pearl of Black Doubt (DM Stance), Insightful Strike (DM 2)
6)SS6:Mind Over Body (DM 3)
7)SS7: Death From Above (TC 2), Hand of Death (replace shadow blade technique),
8)Mo91: Bonesplitting Strike (SD 3), Bounding Assault (DM 3)
9)WB1 (IL 5): Steel Wind Strike, Douse the Flames, White Raven Tactics, Absolute Steel (IH Stance)
10)WB2 (IL 6): Emerald Razor
11)WB3 (IL 7):Iron Heart Surge
12)WB4: (IL 8): Covering Strike (replace douse the flames)
13)WB5: (IL 9):, Leaping Dragon Stance (TC Stance)
14)WB6 (IL 10): Ancient Mountain Hammer (replace Mountain Hammer), Lightning Recovery
15)SS8 (IL 12): Ballista Throw (replace Mighty Throw), Greater Insightful Strike (Martial Study-Warblade), Pouncing Charge (TC 3)
16)SS9: (IL 13):, Diamond Defense (DM 4),Assassin's Stance (SH Stance)
17)Mo92 (SS IL 14, WB IL 13): Shadow Blink
18)Mo93 (SS IL 15, WB IL 14): Quicksilver Motion (WB), White Raven Hammer (Martial Study-Warblade), Diamond Nightmare Blade (WB)
19)Mo94 (SS IL 16, WB IL 15): One with Shadow/Windmill Girallon Flesh Rip
20)Mo95(SS IL 17, WB IL 16): Time Stands Still, Stance of Alacrity (DM Stance), Raging Mongoose

[BowStreetRunner]

I need help deciding whether to pick between One With Shadow or Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip since I feel like I'll miss out on survivability through being incorporeal versus Using Time Stands Still and Raging Mongoose for multiple attacks.
19)Mo94 (SS IL 16, WB IL 15): One with Shadow/Windmill Girallon Flesh Rip
At level 19 the ability to become incorporeal does not lend very much to your ability to survive. By this level there are lots of ways to deal with incorporeal opponents.

[Enyo]

Is Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip while being unarmed even a good idea? I heard you can't TWF unarmed strikes without incurring penalties and because there's no such thing as a offhand unarmed strike.

[Darrin]

Is Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip while being unarmed even a good idea?


GWFR doesn't really care what you're attacking with, only how many times you hit. (One would presume the girallons this is named after are perfectly happy with attacking while unarmed.)



I heard you can't TWF unarmed strikes without incurring penalties


The usual -2 primary/-2 offhand TWF penalties apply. You can get rid of the penalties via Bloodclaw Master 2, but you need to be wielding two daggers or Tiger Claw weapons. Unarmed strike counts, but only as one weapon. You'll need a second weapon. Scorpion Kama works well as a primary weapon (does your unarmed damage), but Greataxe also works!

Some DMs allow unarmed strike to be treated as if you had multiple striking surfaces (elbows, knees, headbutt, etc.), and will let you TWF with unarmed strike as both your primary and offhand weapon. This is not strictly RAW (Rules As Written), as Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip is very explicit that you need to be wielding two weapons, and the general consensus around this forum is that unarmed strike counts as only a single weapon. However, this is not a particularly strong consensus, and we still frequently argue about it. Your group will have to decide what works best for them.



and because there's no such thing as a offhand unarmed strike.

That's only if you're a monk, and the text is worded very poorly. What the designers mean (or at least what I think they mean) is in the following sentence: a monk's unarmed strike always gets full Str bonus on damage, even if it's offhand. This is another subject that is frequently argued about on this forum, and there's no clear consensus on this, as the RAW is muddled and confusing.

[Enyo]

Doesn't this tidbit contradict itself, though? (Rules of the Game:Unarmed Strikes Part Two)


A monk does not suffer an off-hand penalty when attacking unarmed. That is, the monk does not take any attack penalty and gains her full Strength bonus to damage (if any) no matter which appendage the monk uses to make the unarmed attack.

This rule doesn't exempt monks from two-weapon combat penalties (see below).

[Darrin]

Doesn't this tidbit contradict itself, though? (Rules of the Game:Unarmed Strikes Part Two)


I have a more thorough discussion of this issue in my TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079).

Some other issues: Skip Williams' "Rules of the Game" articles are not official rules or errata, what we commonly refer to around here as Rules As Written (RAW). As with the FAQ, Ask Sage, and various customer service responses, these fall into Rules As Interpreted (RAI). Skip is one of the original designers, and for the most part his articles do a good job of explaining how the rules work, but they are not commonly given the same "rules authority" as the PHB, DMG, MM, and so forth. Even the original game designers misunderstand their own rules, give off-the-cuff answers, or have differing opinions about how they think things should work that are at odds with other designers or the rules text itself.



A monk does not suffer an off-hand penalty when attacking unarmed. That is, the monk does not take any attack penalty and gains her full Strength bonus to damage (if any) no matter which appendage the monk uses to make the unarmed attack.


You need to be careful to keep in mind what question is being addressed. Monks have special rules that apply to their unarmed strikes, and in particular when they use Flurry of Blows, where they can alternate between different weapons/hands/strikes however they like without incurring an attack penalty. So an answer about how Flurry of Blows works does not necessarily apply to all instances of any creature attacking with unarmed strikes.

Some of this may also be a relic from the 3.0 rules, where all PCs had to identify which hand was "primary" and incurred a penalty for using an offhand regardless of whether they were attacking with two different weapons.



This rule doesn't exempt monks from two-weapon combat penalties (see below).

The FAQ does allow monks to use the TWF rules and make offhand attacks with their unarmed strikes. The actual rules on how this works are... let's just say "muddled" and leave it at that.

What this boils down to is Rules of the Game are Skip's OPINION on how he thinks the rules should work. As one of the original designers, that may carry more weight with you or your DM than some random idiot in a forum rambling on about RAW/RAI and whatnot. However, if the original designers thought it was important enough to clarify or change the rules, then they would have issued errata to make this clear.

The most important thing to remember is your group needs to decide what works best for your game. RAW is not a Holy Grail to a better game. Mostly it just gives us something to argue about on these forums.

[Enyo]

At level 19 the ability to become incorporeal does not lend very much to your ability to survive. By this level there are lots of ways to deal with incorporeal opponents.

I picked it for the miss chance on certain spells and immunity to physical attacks in case I end being focused during encounters.

[rrwoods]

Darrin and his offhandbook do a good job explaining this issue, IMO. For what it's worth I'll throw in my two coppers as well:

The way I read skip's interpretation is this. Say a monk is full attacking. With or without flurry isn't important, but let's say that their base attack bonuses for that full attack, if they were using a weapon, would be +10/+5 (...so I gues in this example they aren't using flurry :-p).

1) if they attack unarmed, and want only two attacks, they attack at +10/+5, even if they attack with opposite hands because all parts of the monks body are equivalent. Essentially which part of your body you use is irrelevant mechanically, but you can fluff it any way you want for maximum Looking Cool While Beating People Up.

2) if they attack unarmed, and want more than two attacks, they take the two weapon fighting penalties (as appropriate) -- the only way for them to add an attack is to attack with their "off" hand. In this particularly contrived example, they could have just flurried instead, but you catch my drift.

Basically: "normal number" of attacks ( or that number plus 1 under flurry) = no 2wf penalties. More than that = take 2wf penalties (and you need the appropriate feats to make more than 1 extra attack).

[Enyo]

Just updated my build. Any advice/tweaks?

Personally, I think I have too many defensive/utility maneuvers that focus on mobility (especially if I could combine Quicksilver Motion with Bounding Assault to move 3 times my speed, if I'm not terribly mistaken) and reducing my chances of being squished and not enough purely offensive moves.

1)SS1: Moment of Perfect,Charging Minotaur, Shadow Blade Technique, Sudden Leap, Counter Charge, Mighty Throw, Child of Shadow (SH Stance)
2)SS2: Distracting Ember, Island of Blades (SH Stance)
3)SS3: Cloak of Deception
4)SS4: Mountain Hammer, Wolf Fang Strike(replace Shadow Blade Technique)
5)SS5:(Pearl of Black Doubt (DM Stance), Mind Over Body
6)WB1 (IL 3): Steel Wind Strike, Douse the Flames, Leading the Attack, Punishing Stance
7)WB2 (IL 4): Wall of Blades
8)WB3 (IL 5):White Raven Tactics
9)WB4(IL 6): Covering Strike (replace douse the flames), Absolute Steel (IH Stance)
10)WB5(IL7):,Iron Heart Surge
11)WB6 (IL8):Lightning Recovery(replace Leading the Attack
12)WB7(IL9):Iron Heart Focus,
13)WB8(IL10):Mithril Tornado (Replace Steel Wind Strike)
14)WB9(IL11)Iron Heart Endurance,Bounding Assault(Martial Study)
15)Mo91(10,12):Bonesplitting Strike,Pouncing Charge,War Leader's Charge(Martial Study)
16)SS6(11,13):Ballista Throw, Ancient Mountain Hammer (replace MH)
17)MO92(12,14):,Quicksilver Motion, Leaping Dragon Stance
18)Mo93(13,15):Diamond Defense, Shadow Blink(Martial Study), Diamond Nightmare Blade
19)mo94(14,16):White Raven Hammer, Stance of Alacrity
20)mo95(15,17):Time Stands Still,SoPC

[Darrin]

Minor quibble: Sudden Leap requires one Tiger Claw maneuver as a prereq. I'd consider taking Wolf Fang Strike at Swordsage 1 instead of Shadow Blade Technique, and then at Swordsage 4 replace Charging Minotaur with Shadow Jaunt.

Everything else looks good to me.

[PersonMan]

Pick up Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse, and Adaptive Style, plus maybe Gloom Razor;

I've never found Adaptive Style to be worth taking, myself, unless you pick a very situational maneuver loadout all the time.

[Enyo]

Do unarmed swordsage levels count as monk for the Shadow Sun Ninja on boosting unarmed damage? If not, is there anything aside from taking Superior Unarmed Strike that boosts it?

[torrasque666]

Do unarmed swordsage levels count as monk for the Shadow Sun Ninja on boosting unarmed damage? If not, is there anything aside from taking Superior Unarmed Strike that boosts it?
By RAW? No. However, that is one of the things to bring up when bringing the adaptation to your DM.

[Enyo]

Oh.

I thought it did due to the classes that commonly go into SSN included swordsages since they can get Setting Sun and Shadow Hand maneuvers without Martial Study, which would then imply that they get to continue increasing their unarmed damage progression as the variant since their fists have the same properties as monk.

[torrasque666]

Oh.

I thought it did due to the classes that commonly go into SSN included swordsages since they can get Setting Sun and Shadow Hand maneuvers without Martial Study, which would then imply that they get to continue increasing their unarmed damage progression as the variant since their fists have the same properties as monk.
By default, the Unarmed Variant doesn't exist. You have to flesh out how your specific adaptation will work in conjunction with it. It may qualify as a Monk for stuff. It may not.