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JellyPooga
2007-05-09, 07:35 AM
This spell always bugged me.

Brokeness aside (which it clearly is IMO), it's a spell that deals sufficient damage to kill an average man, every 6 seconds for up to a couple of minutes (an average man being one with Con 10 and 1 class level of d6 or lower HD) AND YET inflicts no penalty on actions what so ever...where's the Pain bit?

Surely it should be called Power Word: Slow Unsuspecting Death?

I suggest that it should be increased to a 3rd-4th level spell and on top of its current effect should impose some kind of penalty to actions (-1 or 2 to Attack Rolls and Skill checks or something) for it's duration. Thoughts?

Kaerou
2007-05-10, 08:11 AM
The spell is insignificant to any enemy that matters.

I would never even consider taking it as a 1st level spell.. I just dont see what the deal is.

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-10, 08:16 AM
From a pure CharOp standpoint, it isn't that dangerous. By the time you have access to the spell, there are better spells out there. Save-or-dies start at level 1, after all.

Latronis
2007-05-10, 08:35 AM
It is level 1 o_O

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-10, 08:41 AM
Save-or-dies start at level 1, after all.

I know. Hence this part of my post.

Caelestion
2007-05-10, 08:58 AM
I don't have Spell Compendium so I obviously haven't been getting my RDA of grossly overpowered spells. Which ones are you referring to?

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-10, 09:11 AM
Actually most of them aren't from Spell Compendium. I was thinking more along the lines of the Cyst spells from Libris Mortis.

Spiryt
2007-05-10, 09:21 AM
I have a spell compendium and i can't find Power Word: Pain, where it is?

Latronis
2007-05-10, 09:23 AM
I know it's in Races of the Dragon

i don't know if its anywhere else

Spiryt
2007-05-10, 11:58 AM
Ok, thanks.

Anyway, from what JellyPooga had written, i dont see anything wrong in this spell. ( don't know how it's balanced mechanicaly though)

Considering rather fast and rapid level/HD progression in D&D i will rather give "average" person around 3rd level and 11,12 Con. But it's just little digression.

According to you Jelly, this spell cause damage do the target for some rounds yes? SO THIS is the pain. Every round target feel horrible pain, suffering that weakens him, damaging him, making it fall, and if not, making him easier target for anything else.

You know imagine yourself somebody ( let's say 3th level cleric with 20hp) who is hit by long, sharp, deadly piece of steel called greatsord. He is reduced to lets say 1, 2 hp so he is almost disabled. Yet he is acting just like full health guy. And he obviously has more draft in lungs than he would like to. Where's the Pain?
IN D&D many things theoritycaly should do something more ( falling from 14 meters something more than 4d6 dam), but this is a game after all.This Pain spell is quite okay for me.

Latronis
2007-05-10, 12:06 PM
well technically it can do as much as 16d6 damage as a 1st level spell from a 1st level mage.

but generally it's not going to average enough damage to kill something alone at the upper end of each HP progression.

ie to get 4d4 rounds of 1d6 damage needs less then 50 HP and only averages 35 damage.

It's generally going to kill the very weakest of foes but only cause a bit of pain to anything that you'd want to use it on anyway

Person_Man
2007-05-10, 12:58 PM
1d6 damage a round is a huge waste of time. Most combats involving a full caster only last 1-5 rounds. So at best, you're slowly dealing 5d6 damage with Power Word Pain. Sounds pretty meh to me.

goat
2007-05-10, 03:42 PM
Hmmm, Rogue, hiding well, with a level of wizard and a metamagic silent rod...

I could see them causing a bit of havoc among the unsuspecting, could be an entertaining assassination tool for your evil-doers. Having you enemies killed over a minute or so by intense pain seems like a good plan to me.

The problem would be the close range. Might require some climbing of walls and peeping through windows. Still, you act, they scream in pain and try to find you. You leg it.

JellyPooga
2007-05-11, 09:54 AM
1d6 damage a round is a huge waste of time. Most combats involving a full caster only last 1-5 rounds. So at best, you're slowly dealing 5d6 damage with Power Word Pain. Sounds pretty meh to me.

The reason it's broken is that for a single 1st level spell, it can deal up to 16d6 damage (on average it does 10d6). That's a 16-96 (10-60 average) damage range against enemies with up to 50HP...with no save allowed. At early levels, it's not a "save-or-die" spell, it's just a "die" spell. All you need to do is cast it once and run away until your enemy keels over.

A 1st level Sorcerer with this spell in his repetoir can simply kill 6 enemies every day...those 6 enemies being anywhere from 1st-6th level NPC's (Class/HP depending). Doesn't sound very "meh" to me.

O.k. so it doesn't work on anything immune to mind-affecting spells (e.g. Undead), but it still includes a vast majority of enemies.

I'll admit that it gets progressivly worse as you increase in level, but it is still a very powerful spell up to around 6th level and remains effective up to around 12th (simply for HP-bashing when you've run out of anything else).

Matthew
2007-05-27, 05:25 PM
I have to admit, this Spell does sound pretty broken. Magic Missile at level 1 would require four consecutive castings to match the minimum damage. It's not game breaking, but it is stupid. Of course, that's not untypical of D&D Spells...

tarbrush
2007-05-27, 05:46 PM
I seem to remember someone saying that there was a higher level (3rd? 4th?) Power Word spell that was powered much like a 1st level spell, and that the designers had simply got the levels the wrong way round.

Not having the book, I have no way of verifying that though

Person_Man
2007-05-27, 06:07 PM
The reason it's broken is that for a single 1st level spell, it can deal up to 16d6 damage (on average it does 10d6). That's a 16-96 (10-60 average) damage range against enemies with up to 50HP...with no save allowed. At early levels, it's not a "save-or-die" spell, it's just a "die" spell. All you need to do is cast it once and run away until your enemy keels over.

A 1st level Sorcerer with this spell in his repetoir can simply kill 6 enemies every day...those 6 enemies being anywhere from 1st-6th level NPC's (Class/HP depending). Doesn't sound very "meh" to me.

O.k. so it doesn't work on anything immune to mind-affecting spells (e.g. Undead), but it still includes a vast majority of enemies.

I'll admit that it gets progressivly worse as you increase in level, but it is still a very powerful spell up to around 6th level and remains effective up to around 12th (simply for HP-bashing when you've run out of anything else).

Let's review this spell again:

1) Only deals an average of 3.5 damage per round for an average of 10 rounds, less if your enemy has more than 50 hit points. And most combats in D&D don't even last that long.

2) Doesn't work on non-living enemies.

3) Requires that you come within close range of an enemy to cast it on them.

4) Can easily be negated by SR.

5) Like every other spell effect, if you kill the sorcerer/wizard who casts it on you, the spell effect end.

I really can't think of a situation where walking up to someone and slowly annoying them to death would be useful.

Raum
2007-05-27, 06:22 PM
5) Like every other spell effect, if you kill the sorcerer/wizard who casts it on you, the spell effect end.Do you have a reference for this?

I do agree that the spell isn't particularly useful. While it does too much damage for a first level spell (by the DMG guidelines) it's too slow to be used in combat. It might allow some form of kiting, but that's not often a viable tactic.

Fizban
2007-05-28, 02:12 AM
Aside from the fact that it's name has little to do with it' effect, this spell is a prime example of a spell that is PC and game wise balanced, but totally destroys any world continuity where it exists.

No other 1st level spell, even when used against a 1st level commoner, will outright kill them. Reduce to below 0 hp, sure, render unconscious for the death blow, of course, but not out right kill. The only one with no method of avoidance is magic missile, and with a max of five damage it will leave them in at most critical condition.

Power word pain is literally a death sentence, once it's cast there is no way to save the target other than magical healing or astounding luck.

Belkarseviltwin
2007-05-28, 05:30 AM
I seem to remember someone saying that there was a higher level (3rd? 4th?) Power Word spell that was powered much like a 1st level spell, and that the designers had simply got the levels the wrong way round.

Not having the book, I have no way of verifying that though

I seem to remember that being the case. The higher level spell was Power Word: Distract.
*checks Races of the Dragon*

I think that's true. Power Word: Distract is a 4th-level spell which makes one creature with 150 hp or less flat-footed until its next turn. That seems a bit underpowered.

JungeonJeff
2007-05-28, 05:50 AM
It might not be the strongest of spells around, but it would still be cool to do a Darth Vader on commoner or a local guard.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing..." *make pincer motion with hand* Power Word : Pain

:smallbiggrin:

Shatteredtower
2007-05-28, 07:08 AM
1) Only deals an average of 3.5 damage per round for an average of 10 rounds, less if your enemy has more than 50 hit points. And most combats in D&D don't even last that long.That's not much consolation against a creature that can hit and run effectively. As early as 1st level, the combination of this and expeditious retreat are sufficient to score you a slow but cheap kill against a minotaur (CR 4). The creature is likely to survive the first casting of power word pain, but with the few hp it has left and a low armor class, it's then pretty easy pickings for a group that can strike first.

Do you have any other 1st level strategy for defeating minotaurs with such a small expenditure of resources at minimal risk to yourself? There are a few, but most are terrain dependent.

Let's also not forget that the damage stacks. That owlbear is only taking 1d6 hp of damage for 2d4 rounds from the first casting, but the second lasts the full 4d4 rounds. A 6th level sorcerer using fly can solo a behir (CR 8) with nothing more than this spell.

Sure, a 5th level wizard with deep slumber and fly prepared can also do the trick, especially with fox's cunning and Spell Focus/Greater Spell Focus (enchantment) boosting the save DC to 20 (21 for someone that maxed Intelligence at 1st level) against a creature with +5 on Will saves, but there's a 1 in 4 chance it won't work. Even if it does, the wizard still has to score the killing blow, which works best with the assistance of an ally more capable of getting the coup de grace to succeed. Even with a +1 scythe and bull's strength boosting Strength to 14, there's a 5% chance the bulette will survive the operation, which is almost assuredly fatal for your wizard.

Meanwhile, the first three castings of power word pain are usually enough to get the behir down below the 75 hp mark. The sorcerer can then take a two round break, waiting for them to take fullest effect, then cast it twice more before taking a few more rounds off while it whittles the creature down below 50 hp, when another casting or two are probably sufficient to finish it off. That should pretty much exhaust the sorcerer's 1st level spell slots, maybe even requiring a few of the 2nd level slots to finish the job, but it's a task that no other offensive spell at that level would achieve so easily. He might be able to solo the beast with scorching ray a bit more quickly (seven castings ought to do the trick), but casting scorching ray three times and then power word pain twice is quicker still, after which you simply retreat 80 ft into the air, magic missile at the ready in case you actually need a chaser.


3) Requires that you come within close range of an enemy to cast it on them.Much to the frustration of a low level party, close range still allows an enemy to cast the spell through an arrow slit or from the other side of a strong door which allies, such as two 1st level commoner, stand ready to close and lock after the 1st level sorcerer casts the spell.

Consider the resource costs from another angle as well. Even with false life in place, an 8th level wizard or sorcerer is going to find this sort of thing more hassle than a 1st level kobold sorcerer ought to be able to provide. At least the damn thing is worth xp, but only 50 each for a party of 4. Meanwhile, you're having to spend how many 1st and 2nd level spell slots to undo the effects of this spell? Okay, sure, you could use dispel magic, but you've still got to regain the few hit points you lost first, which means you probably means another 1st level spell -- and there's even a slim chance that dispel magic won't do the trick, either because you rolled 3 or less on your dispel check or you blew your Concentration check against ongoing damage. (The latter is highly unlikely, next to impossible if you've been keeping that skill maxed out and only got tagged by the spell once, but it bears mentioning. Lower level characters might not be so lucky.)


4) Can easily be negated by SR.SR is ridiculously easy to overcome in most cases involving a creature with CR matching your level. There are a few exceptions, such as the mind flayer or night hag, but most outsiders and dragons have pretty pitiful SR for their CR.


5) Like every other spell effect, if you kill the sorcerer/wizard who casts it on you, the spell effect end.That only applies to spells that require concentration to maintain. This isn't one of them.


I really can't think of a situation where walking up to someone and slowly annoying them to death would be useful.

"Feel that? That's your heart dying. Even if you kill me, you'll be dead in seconds. Now I can save you, but you're going to answer a few questions for me first..."

There's no guarantee that will work, but I don't know any other 1st level spell that could make a CR 3-4 enemy consider their options.

JellyPooga
2007-05-28, 10:07 AM
I actually did some calculations on this. Taking everything on averages it goes as follows:

Hit Dice/Hit Points per level: Given a party of 4; Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard with a spread of Con bonus'; Fighter has Con 16, Cleric 14, Rogue 12, Wizard 10 gives an Average Hit Point total of 8.5 at level 1 +5.5 HP per level. This is my 'average' man (which is by no means a true 'average' but for the purpose of the game it is about right).

This gives us the following HP totals/level for my 'average' man:

{table]Level|HP
1|8.5
2|14
3|19.5
4|25
5|30.5
6|36
7|41.5
8|47[/table]

The damage dealt by Power Word: Pain on creatures up to 50 HP is on average 35 points of damage.

As you can see, given totally average rolls, casting this spell once will incapacitate/kill a creature of up to 5th level. And that's an average in favour of the recipient (strictly speaking, the 'average' opponent should not have a Con bonus). With a little luck, that goes up to 8th level (bear in mind that the maximum damage this spell can do at these levels is 96). With a single casting of this spell. A 1st level Kobold Sorcerer casts this on a 1st level party member and that party member dies 4 times over...even if you kill the Kobold. How many 1st level Clerics can muster the sort of healing needed to keep that character alive? Now consider multiple castings of this 1st level spell. One 1st level Sorcerer with this spell can quite happily kill a party of four 5th level characters (well, strictly speaking he can't, but if all the members of that party are 'average'...). That just isn't right. Admittedly, this does not account for any healing that may take place over the duration of the spell, nor does it account for the spell being Dispelled, but I'm sure you can see that at lower levels, the amount of healing required just to keep the recipient of this spell alive is phenomenal.

I calculated its relative effects above 8th level and from 9th level onwards, it can no longer kill my 'average' man (even 'maximised'), but it is still capable of taking a good chunk of the recipients HP out up to level 12 (by that I mean that it reduces HP by at least 25%, on average rolls). Beyond that point, it becomes little more than an inconvenience.

Now consider it Maximised. 96 points of damage to almost any living creature with 50 or less HP for a 4th level spell slot. No save. Given that you actually have 50 HP, on the button, you need 46 HP of healing to stay conscious. If you don't get at least 36 HP of healing, you die. Not a terribly large amount you can do about it either. Now, 4th level slot = Wizard level 7. Oh, look, we're in the bracket for less than 50 HP for the 'average' man. Mr Wizard has Power Word: Kill...wait a minute, shouldn't that be a level 9 spell?