Undead and (Ex) abilities/attacks

[rahimka]

I just started running a Blight Druid w/the Death Domain and I'm fielding some fun undead animals (fast zombie Roc, bloody skeleton T-Rex and Behemoth Hippo). But my GM and I have run into some confusion regarding how the Skeleton (and Zombie) templates affect some of these critters' abilities, so I'm looking for any advice or official knowledge on whether stuff like Grab, Rend, Pounce, and Constrict carry over or not.

Skeleton Template wording (relevant sections):
"Attacks: A skeleton retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature, except for attacks that can't work without flesh"

"Special Attacks: A skeleton retains none of the base creature's special attacks"

"Special Qualities: A skeleton loses most special qualities of the base creature. It retains any extraordinary special qualities that improve its melee or ranged attacks"

Clearly, the T-Rex keeps something like "Powerful Bite" which gives it Str x2 damage with its Bite. And we figured stuff like "Grab" (listed in the melee attack description of the Roc's Claw and the T-Rex and Hippo's Bites) carries over. But "Pounce" probably doesn't because it's a separate kind of attacking action, rather than an improvement on normal melee attacks. But after the first fight we did in-game, I ended up with a skeletal High Girallon under my control. The living version has a Rend attack if it hits with all 4 Claws, and thats where we started to get confused. It's not a separate action (like "Pounce" or the Hippo's "Capsize" ability) and, at least in the Girallon's stat block, its indicated in both the Special Attacks and under the Claws themselves: Bite +16 (1d8+5), 4 Claws +16 (1d6+5 rend).

Can anybody provide some RAW clarification or advice on whether the skeletal version keeps this Rend? Or confirmation that skeletons and zombies do not, in fact, keep Pounce or other (Ex) melee/ranged attacks that work as a separate action from the natural/manufactured attacks listed in the stat block?

[Ashtagon]

If it's listed as a aspecial attack, it's not a valid option for the skeleton. Sems fairly straightforward to me.

[Psyren]

Ashtagon is correct, you lose all special attacks, and you lose most special qualities except the ones that improve melee and ranged.

- Skeleton T-Rex: Loses Swallow Whole, keeps Powerful Bite.
- Skeleton Behemoth Hippo: Loses sweat (irrelevant), capsize and trample.
- Skeleton Roc: Loses Grab - grab is a special attack.
- Skeleton Girallon: Loses Rend.

They all keep their natural weapons.

[rahimka]

I've done some more research and looked through the Universal Monster Rules more closely, and I've gotta say that I disagree with you about losing Grab.

While, yes, the description of the ability includes the phrase "special attack", the Template seems to be referring to specifically the abilities which are listed in the "Special Attack" section of the stat block. Grab, like Trip, is described using those words, but appears in the stat block as part of a specific "individual attack" (per the Universal Monster Rules).

Take for example the Fast Zombie Wolf's stat block, which includes the Trip on it's bite attack: http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Zombie%20Wolf

The Zombie Crocodile and Skeletal Owlbear also keep their Grab: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/zombie/zombie-crocodile , http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/skeleton-medium/skeleton-owlbear

Based on what I'm seeing as I look into this, it appears that it really is just abilities indicated in the "Special Attacks" part of the stat block which are lost, those which are part of the natural attacks are retained.

Rend, which is listed in the Special Attacks section in the stat block (as indicated in the UMR), is indeed lost

[Psyren]

The entry for "grab" that defines it as a special attack does specifically state that it can show up in both the special attack line and the attack line:


Format: grab; Location: individual attacks and special attacks.

Which to me says that no matter which one of those two lines has it, it is referring to this entry and is thus a special attack.

Similarly, Trip is defined as a special attack and is shown to be in the individual attack line:


Format: trip (bite); Location: individual attacks.

In short, I'd say the location of the special attack doesn't matter - if the definition says it is one, then it is one, regardless of where it appears.

Therefore I'd argue that a wolf skeleton loses its trip ability too.

[rahimka]

Grab's "location" is actually listed differently on the d20 vs Paizo's website.

The Paizo site (which I'd say is more official), only indicates it to be found in "individual attacks", just like Trip. I'd say the stat blocks I found indicate that I'm interpreting this correctly. Otherwise you are saying the official stat blocks for those creatures are wrong. That's obviously not unheard of, but can you show me any official stat blocks of a converted creature which lost Grab or Trip from its Natural Attacks?

Look at this way, the Skeleton and Zombie templates are organized and formatted to indicate the changes made to each part of the creature's stat block. So when the "Special Attacks" section says it loses all special attacks, its referring specifically to those listed in that part of the block. Just like the "Special Qualities" section is specific to "special abilities" listed there, otherwise one could also argue that "Grab" and "Trip" are abilities which improve melee attacks (by allowing a free combat maneuver).

[Psyren]

Otherwise you are saying the official stat blocks for those creatures are wrong.

Yes, that is what I'm saying - the template says creatures lose all special attacks, and the Bestiary defines those two (grab and trip) as special attacks. To me, if the sample stat blocks say otherwise, that is a specific quirk of those individual blocks rather than a blanket ruling (until they issue FAQ or errata to the contrary.)

I understand if you don't agree and that's perfectly okay.

[rahimka]

Yes, that is what I'm saying - the template says creatures lose all special attacks, and the Bestiary defines those two (grab and trip) as special attacks. To me, if the sample stat blocks say otherwise, that is a specific quirk of those individual blocks rather than a blanket ruling (until they issue FAQ or errata to the contrary.)

I understand if you don't agree and that's perfectly okay.

I certainly agree with that last sentiment, we may not see eye-to-eye on the interpretation. But it can be fun to debate this things, eh?

As for the stat blocks being wrong, that's why I'm curious if you could point to any where Grab/Trip are dropped in an officially statted conversion of a creature. If I saw those it would suggest to me that the ones I found were exceptions rather than indicative of the general rule. Otherwise, they seem like confirmation of what I'm saying.

[Psyren]

I certainly agree with that last sentiment, we may not see eye-to-eye on the interpretation. But it can be fun to debate this things, eh?

As for the stat blocks being wrong, that's why I'm curious if you could point to any where Grab/Trip are dropped in an officially statted conversion of a creature. If I saw those it would suggest to me that the ones I found were exceptions rather than indicative of the general rule. Otherwise, they seem like confirmation of what I'm saying.

Even if I did dig through all my books to come up with such a block, it wouldn't change the RAW of the template entry or the Bestiary "Universal Monster Rules" section. Because they aren't reliable, I only refer to statblocks if something is ambiguous, and to me this isn't.