Change to Improved Snap Shot

[Barstro]

Did the rules change? I have been considering taking Improved Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes, but just noticed that the range for ISN is +5 feet (total of 10) instead of +10 (total of 15) that I recall it being when I looked at it in the past. That rather limits the usefulness for my character.

[Psyren]

Yes, ISS was nerfed in the Ultimate Combat errata released a couple of days ago and the PFSRD was updated to match.

[Extra Anchovies]

BUT WHY

This nerf makes me angry. I'm planning to ignore it.

[Palanan]

From what I can pick up, Paizo really seems to be on a nerfing spree here lately.

Is this an accurate impression? And to echo Anchovies, why?

[Psyren]

BUT WHY

While not specific to your question, they've offered this explanation (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhvx?FAQ-on-Errata) as well as an invitation for folks to post to that thread if they disagree with any of the changes.


From what I can pick up, Paizo really seems to be on a nerfing spree here lately.

Is this an accurate impression? And to echo Anchovies, why?

It's more a timing issue as the article explains. These were apparently changes they were planning to make for months, but the errata documents happened to get compiled/released in a cluster and here we are.

Also, while I do agree that some of the nerfs were unwarranted, it's worth pointing out that they've buffed several things as well.

[Palanan]

Okay, thanks for that link.

Paizo buffeth and Paizo nerfeth away, apparently. Ah well.

[Psyren]

Also, Vic from Paizo had a great response (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhvx&page=2?FAQ-on-Errata#76) that I'd like to just leave here.

http://i.imgur.com/cIkRkCQ.png

[Barstro]

Yes, ISS was nerfed in the Ultimate Combat errata released a couple of days ago and the PFSRD was updated to match.

Man, archers never get anything nice.

It's a shame that I spent a while trying to work it into my build so that some otherwise useless feat slots would go unused. Guess we'll see how it works in my party when I actually get it and beg for a change if necessary.

I don't fault them for making the change. Well, not for changes in general; I don't see much need nerfing mundane weapons like this. I feel that they should balance it by letting Snap Shot provide flanking as well, much like any other reach weapon.

[13ones]

Man, archers never get anything nice.

It's a shame that I spent a while trying to work it into my build so that some otherwise useless feat slots would go unused. Guess we'll see how it works in my party when I actually get it and beg for a change if necessary.

I don't fault them for making the change. Well, not for changes in general; I don't see much need nerfing mundane weapons like this. I feel that they should balance it by letting Snap Shot provide flanking as well, much like any other reach weapon.

.....

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic with that first line.

[Barstro]

.....

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic with that first line.

I had it in blue. Is that not correct sarcasm color?

Hell, it took so long for me to reply to the thread in the first place because I had only my phone for a long time and couldn't find a way to select colors on it. :smallwink:

[Vhaidara]

Wrong blue. Sarcasm is regular blue, I'm pretty sure you used navy blue, hence the confusion.

Also, by my understanding, archery is actually the strongest combat style in pf, once you get all 13+ feats needed for it, because you can pull out as many attacks as TWF, from range, with full str mod to all attacks, at half the cost (1 weapon instead of 2).

[Barstro]

Wrong blue. Sarcasm is regular blue, I'm pretty sure you used navy blue, hence the confusion.

Also, by my understanding, archery is actually the strongest combat style in pf, once you get all 13+ feats needed for it, because you can pull out as many attacks as TWF, from range, with full str mod to all attacks, at half the cost (1 weapon instead of 2).

My bad.

The fact that archery needs so many feats to be the best (still questionable) kind of says something. But I certainly find it stronger than some posts I have read seem to opine.

[Vhaidara]

Well, thats the key. Archery takes a while to come online. Two handed fighting, meanwhile, needs all of power attack to be at full strength. However, that means that two handed fighting has less room to improve with further feats.

[Anlashok]

Well, thats the key. Archery takes a while to come online. Two handed fighting, meanwhile, needs all of power attack to be at full strength. However, that means that two handed fighting has less room to improve with further feats.

Yeah, but that's kind of immaterial when we're talking about one of the most dominant fighting styles in the game.

[Vhaidara]

It's dominant because it's both easy and good. You can make a two handed fighter in any class and function from level 1. Try doing that with archery or TWF and most classes are going to flop from lack of feats. Archery, for example, needs 2 feats for basic function (pbs and precise). Further investment leads to both more damage and more attacks, as well as pseudo-indelendence of full attacks (multishot or whatever, brain is failing)

TWF, meanwhile, is generally associates with dex characters, reinforced by the feat's prereqs. But paizo makes it impossible, outside of unchained rogue, to get dex to damage with an offhand weapon before a pair of +2 weapons is on the table. And you never get any kind of independence from full attacks, while making your standard action attacks positively anemic. And then natural attacks go and outdo it for death by a thousand cuts.

As a note, sword and board is miles behind all three, for good reason. Traditional sword and board isn't about damage, and the dual wield sword and board isn't real sword and board, it's fancy twf.

[Psyren]

Sure Dex-based combat takes longer to get going, but the whole time you're enjoying much higher Touch AC, initiative, reflex saves, Stealth, Acrobatics, and ease of switching between melee and ranged. Damage output isn't everything - the DPR of a corpse is zero.

[Vhaidara]

Dex based twf is only possible with either a 3 level tax or a weapon enhancement tax. Both of those are incredibly expensive, and are further limited to a single weapon. A lot of people who want to make a dex based character aren't going to want to be tied to a single weapon type (why am I garbage with everything else?) Or a specific magic weapon. I personally despise gear dependence for entirely mundane functionality. Flight is one thing, basic combat skill is another entirely.

And psyren, you know better. Reflex is the least valuable save, and AC is generally a fools game (plus, while touch is higher, actual is usually significantly lower). Acrobatics is a nightmare to make useful with how much cmd grows, and stealth hardly fits into every build for a duelist or dervish.

The main goal of pathfinder melee is making the enemy a corpse first. You can dodge all you like, but when you're dealing a piddly d6 a turn (standard action for a no-dex to damage twf), you WILL die first, no matter how high your touch ac is.

[Hrugner]

Also, Vic from Paizo had a great response (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhvx&page=2?FAQ-on-Errata#76) that I'd like to just leave here.

http://i.imgur.com/cIkRkCQ.png

his collection of things in plan A are not perfectly interconnected. They could just answer the question people ask, actually anytime they want to start doing that in earnest I have some questions regarding better modeling of three dimensional movement, movement type transitions, the fricking klar, how some abilities work at unintended sizes and several other questions that are often asked and never answered.

PFS also shouldn't be a balancing point for home game rules. You are never going to see the kind of balance in PFS as you will at a home table where the DM can work directly with the players to ensure their characters are right for the world.

His plan C, his preference, doesn't account for how much less handy the material is to use when wildly different abilities have the same name as old abilities that have now been removed, and everyone at the table could have a potentially different rules set. Why he thinks this is a good idea is beyond me.

B is what happens for the most part because the easiest to access rules are the ones modified for PFS balance which, from what I understand, isn't terribly balanced.

[Psyren]

And psyren, you know better. Reflex is the least valuable save, and AC is generally a fools game (plus, while touch is higher, actual is usually significantly lower). Acrobatics is a nightmare to make useful with how much cmd grows, and stealth hardly fits into every build for a duelist or dervish.

Er, Psyren does in fact know better; ranking saves in a vacuum is nonsensical. "The least valuable save" is the one you can pass the most easily; all the others must be addressed, at least to a minimum level of competence. Create Pit, Mudball and Web can take you out of a fight just as easily as Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud or Deep Slumber can. And yes, AC does matter, because iteratives and secondary attacks are things that exist; the goal is not to be immune to getting hit at all, it's to not crumple to a single full-attack sequence or to an unbuffed CMB check. Monsters tend to go for the Death of a Thousand Cuts approach to DPR, not Falcon Punching past your defenses; even heavy hitters like Balors do this.



The main goal of pathfinder melee is making the enemy a corpse first. You can dodge all you like, but when you're dealing a piddly d6 a turn (standard action for a no-dex to damage twf), you WILL die first, no matter how high your touch ac is.

Dex to damage is nice, but it's hardly mandatory to be competitive - any source of bonus damage will do. Favored/Instant Enemy, Judgment+Bane, Sneak Attack, Spell Combat/Strike, Precise Strike deed, etc. If you can get it with minimal investment, great, but there are tons of builds that can do well without it, while reaping the many benefits of a dex-focused build on top of that.

And I notice you forgot to mention initiative, which is much more likely to help you attain your goal of "making the enemy a corpse first" than anything else.


his collection of things in plan A are not perfectly interconnected. They could just answer the question people ask, actually anytime they want to start doing that in earnest I have some questions regarding better modeling of three dimensional movement, movement type transitions, the fricking klar, how some abilities work at unintended sizes and several other questions that are often asked and never answered.

PFS also shouldn't be a balancing point for home game rules. You are never going to see the kind of balance in PFS as you will at a home table where the DM can work directly with the players to ensure their characters are right for the world.

His plan C, his preference, doesn't account for how much less handy the material is to use when wildly different abilities have the same name as old abilities that have now been removed, and everyone at the table could have a potentially different rules set. Why he thinks this is a good idea is beyond me.

B is what happens for the most part because the easiest to access rules are the ones modified for PFS balance which, from what I understand, isn't terribly balanced.

"Ease of access" isn't relevant - ultimately it's the GM's responsibility which rules changes to accept wholesale and which ones to reject, based on the fun at their table. A GM who swallows every ruling whole regardless of the impact on their group's fun is just as wrong as one who ignores every ruling no matter how unbalanced the thing it was trying to fix is. In the end, the group's fun is the only thing that matters, no matter what Paizo says or doesn't say.

[grarrrg]

Wrong blue. Sarcasm is regular blue, I'm pretty sure you used navy blue, hence the confusion.

My bad.

I feel the need to point out that "Blue = Sarcasm" is not actually a "forum rule".
This means a few things:
A) If you put something in blue text you should not automatically assume that people know it is meant to be sarcasm.
B) The exact shade of blue is not a fixed thing. Use whatever blue (or other color) you feel like using.

[Extra Anchovies]

Dex based twf is only possible with either a 3 level tax or a weapon enhancement tax. Both of those are incredibly expensive, and are further limited to a single weapon. A lot of people who want to make a dex based character aren't going to want to be tied to a single weapon type (why am I garbage with everything else?) Or a specific magic weapon. I personally despise gear dependence for entirely mundane functionality. Flight is one thing, basic combat skill is another entirely.

I wouldn't call 3 or 4 levels of uRogue a tax for TWF builds. It's not so much a tax as it is a really powerful option that pretty much everyone should take at some point.

What you get:

2d6 sneak attack
Dex to hit and damage
One or two rogue talents
Debilitating Injury
a bunch of class skills and skill points

What you lose:

one point of BAB
maybe a few hit points

[Hrugner]

"Ease of access" isn't relevant - ultimately it's the GM's responsibility which rules changes to accept wholesale and which ones to reject, based on the fun at their table. A GM who swallows every ruling whole regardless of the impact on their group's fun is just as wrong as one who ignores every ruling no matter how unbalanced the thing it was trying to fix is. In the end, the group's fun is the only thing that matters, no matter what Paizo says or doesn't say.

It's my perspective that it is very damaging to the enjoyment of play and the work load of the DM to have abilities over written in their pdfs and online resources, particularly when the only similarity between the new feat and the old is the name. Ease of access is very much important, and removing options without an open change log is going to make things harder for a DM to explain to players what they permit at their table. Rules clarifications I understand overwriting old rules in order to keep those rules standard, but the changing of feats and classes should probably be logged in order to indicate to the group what is being used, or to look back on the option as it was written when it was selected for play. What's being done instead is just a headache.