Fighter Size

[LordOfCain]

For a wood elf fighter focusing on unarmed and two weapon fighting with a str of 18 and a dex of 15, is permanent enlarge or reduce person better??

[Necroticplague]

Enlarge. DEX doesn't do anything for you except be required as a prerequisite for feats, and being small makes you do less damage.

[Psyren]

In addition, since you're fighting unarmed you can't pick up a reach weapon, so you'll need Enlarge or else other monsters with reach will curbstomp you.

[BowStreetRunner]

You're an elf, not a Killer Gnome (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1059231).

[Curmudgeon]

I'd recommend the reverse: go for Small size, and crank up your reach with feats:

Aberration Blood (flexible limbs) (Lords of Madness, page 178)
Extended Reach (Savage Species, page 34): +5' reach
Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness, page 180): another +5'

There's no difference between Medium and Small in terms of reach, but you're more apt to surprise your enemies if you're Small yet have 15' unarmed reach.

The second reason Small size works better is that the unarmed damage of Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle, page 33) is independent of Size, but works out the same as a Small Monk through character level 19. Add on top of that a daily casting (from your friendly party Sorcerer/Wizard) of Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon, page 115) and you'll have more upside in terms of effective size increases if you start from Small size.

[WhamBamSam]

I'd recommend the reverse: go for Small size, and crank up your reach with feats:

Aberration Blood (flexible limbs) (Lords of Madness, page 178)
Extended Reach (Savage Species, page 34): +5' reach
Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness, page 180): another +5'

There's no difference between Medium and Small in terms of reach, but you're more apt to surprise your enemies if you're Small yet have 15' unarmed reach.

The second reason Small size works better is that the unarmed damage of Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle, page 33) is independent of Size, but works out the same as a Small Monk through character level 19. Add on top of that a daily casting (from your friendly party Sorcerer/Wizard) of Greater Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon, page 115) and you'll have more upside in terms of effective size increases if you start from Small size.Extended Reach requires a "feeler, nonrigid body or a nonrigid attack form such as a tentacle, or pseudopod," which I think is a stretch for Flexible Limbs alone. You might have to work Deepspawn in there too or get a graft to meet the prerequisite.

Also, if you're exceptionally evil, then Deformity (Tall) does offer a reach boost that medium creatures can access but small ones can't.

Also, also, this is the difference between small and large rather than small and medium, so the enlarged elf will have a reach advantage over the reduced one.

However, the permanent enlarging is still a bad idea without a Dex boosting item if you're a TWFer (which the OP says he is), as the size penalty to Dex will mean you no longer qualify for the TWF feat.

[Curmudgeon]

Extended Reach requires a "feeler, nonrigid body or a nonrigid attack form such as a tentacle, or pseudopod," which I think is a stretch for Flexible Limbs alone.
There's more explanation in the Benefit section of the feat.
Benefit: Your body or a part of your body with which you can deliver a melee attack is boneless and flexible, allowing you to threaten a larger than normal area with melee attacks. Add +5 feet to your normal reach.
In a build which is designed for unarmed attacks, making "a part of your body with which you can deliver a melee attack" (i.e., your limbs) flexible is exactly what's required.

[WhamBamSam]

There's more explanation in the Benefit section of the feat.
In a build which is designed for unarmed attacks, making "a part of your body with which you can deliver a melee attack" (i.e., your limbs) flexible is exactly what's required.So once you have it, it self-qualifies, but you still need to meet the prereq going in. How are you doing that? Buying a casting of Polymorph, or something?

[Ferronach]

Being large will allow you to wield bigger weapons and as a result enable to do more damage while dual wielding. Your unarmed strikes will also benefit from the increased size.

The downsides to being large are that you are easier to hit, may have difficulty in smaller spaces (caves, doors, prisons, tunnels, etc.) and that if dispelled, you will no longer be able to wield your larger weapons without a penalty.

Two weapon fighting comes with enough penalties to hit (especially with a lower Dex score) that you will want to make sure that you drop your weapons immediately and go for your unarmed damage if your size is altered.

Just some thoughts here: I know that as a fighter, you have access to more feats but it seems that going down two feat intensive paths could set you up for mediocrity as opposed to specializing in one. If you really want the unarmed strike but don’t want to go down the monk path, have you considered an unarmed swordsage?

[LordOfCain]

Well what would be the best item to become large. Preferably least expensive as well.

[Necroticplague]

./
Just some thoughts here: I know that as a fighter, you have access to more feats but it seems that going down two feat intensive paths could set you up for mediocrity as opposed to specializing in one. If you really want the unarmed strike but don’t want to go down the monk path, have you considered an unarmed swordsage?

I thought he meant actually combining the styles at once. Since a UAS is a light weapon that doesn't take up hands, that means you can combine them with THF to decent effect (I.e, wield a greatsword+punch people as your off-hand).

[LordOfCain]

I mean combining both but using daggers for damage reduction and some range.

[Curmudgeon]

So once you have it, it self-qualifies, but you still need to meet the prereq going in.
You appear to have disregarded my statement that there was explanation in the Benefit section. The first sentence explains how it works (because you're flexible); the second sentence details the actual consequence (you gain reach). That pattern exists in a number of other feats. For example:
Benefit: You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat. Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon, you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. Having a free hand (holding nothing) is not a consequence of taking Deflect Arrows; instead, the sentence explains how the feat works (because you have a free hand).

[BowStreetRunner]

So the Extended Reach feat has two prerequisites before you can take the feat.

You must have a feeler, nonrigid body or a nonrigid attack form such as a tentacle, or pseudo-pod.
You must be size Small or larger.

The benefit is that your body or part of your body is boneless or flexible adding +5 reach.

What this is in essence stating is that because you meet the prerequisite of already having a body part that is boneless and flexible you can train yourself to stretch that part out further extending your reach. A normal feeler, a normal nonrigid body, a normal tentacle attack form, and a normal pseudo-pod attack form do not give extra reach, but because you have them you qualify for the feat showing that you trained yourself to stretch them out. Of course if you are Tiny, Diminutive, or Fine it won't matter because you can't train yourself to stretch far enough to make a difference.

[WhamBamSam]

You appear to have disregarded my statement that there was explanation in the Benefit section. The first sentence explains how it works (because you're flexible); the second sentence details the actual consequence (you gain reach). That pattern exists in a number of other feats. For example: Having a free hand (holding nothing) is not a consequence of taking Deflect Arrows; instead, the sentence explains how the feat works (because you have a free hand).The free hand thing in Deflect Arrows is a descriptive part of the benefit, not a prerequisite. You still qualify for Deflect Arrows when your hands are full, so long as you have IUS and your Dex hasn't dropped below 13, even if you can't use it. The reference to a "feeler, nonrigid body or a nonrigid attack form such as a tentacle, or pseudopod" is a prerequisite for Extended Reach.

Once you have the feat, it could be argued to make a part of your body flexible/more flexible and meet that prereq, so that you can't disqualify yourself (and even that's a little shaky because "flexible" is somewhat short of "nonrigid"), but you would still have to somehow meet the prereq before taking the feat in the first place.

[Curmudgeon]

The free hand thing in Deflect Arrows is a descriptive part of the benefit, not a prerequisite.
Having a free hand is not a benefit. Nor have I ever claimed it to be a prerequisite; it's purely an explanation of how the feat works. Similarly, the flexible body part is an explanation of how Extended Reach works. I maintain the prerequisite is established by Aberration Blood (flexible limbs). You're simply not satisfied that the flexible limbs granted by that feat are sufficiently flexible to work with Extended Reach. I get that; there's no further explanation of exactly how flexible your limbs are. However, can you explain how the game is improved by your interpretation? This set of three feats makes an unarmed combatant more capable at doing their thing; it strikes me as a reasonable return on the investment.

[Psyren]

Well hang on now, there's no requirement that feats have to "improve the game" - especially when getting a consensus on that sort of metric is a nigh impossible task. He's interpreting it, just like you are, based on what it says - and until all our rulebooks are written in Lojban, this sort of thing is going to crop up from time to time.

[Curmudgeon]

Well hang on now, there's no requirement that feats have to "improve the game"
No, feats are supposed to improve a character. But if there's real ambiguity in how to interpret a rule, then lacking any other guidance choosing an interpretation that improves the game is less arbitrary.

[Psyren]

No, feats are supposed to improve a character.

And his reading does - for those characters that meet the requirements. That it's harder to do so is not relevant - it is possible for a character to qualify and be thus improved.

[ekarney]

I'd recommend the reverse: go for Small size, and crank up your reach with feats:

Aberration Blood (flexible limbs) (Lords of Madness, page 178)
Extended Reach (Savage Species, page 34): +5' reach
Inhuman Reach (Lords of Madness, page 180): another +5'

There's no difference between Medium and Small in terms of reach, but you're more apt to surprise your enemies if you're Small yet have 15' unarmed reach.


I think there's also a Vile/Deformity feat that gives you +5ft reach.
I could be totally wrong though. I'm AFB at the moment.

[Curmudgeon]

I think there's also a Vile/Deformity feat that gives you +5ft reach.
I could be totally wrong though. I'm AFB at the moment.
It's actually a pair of feats.

Willing Deformity (Heroes of Horror, page 125): requires Evil alignment
Deformity (tall) (Heroes of Horror, page 121): requires Medium size, Willing Deformity

Because of the required Medium size, this pair isn't compatible with my suggestion of Small size as more likely to surprise enemies with unexpected reach.

[marphod]

No, feats are supposed to improve a character. But if there's real ambiguity in how to interpret a rule, then lacking any other guidance choosing an interpretation that improves the game is less arbitrary.

I posit that your interpretation of 'Improve the Game' varies highly from mine and therefore makes that interpretation effectively as arbitrary as any other.

---

However, there's no ambiguity to the prerequisite.



Prerequisite: Small or larger size, nonrigid body or a nonrigid attack form such as a tentacle, feeler, or pseudopod.
(Emphasis mine)

No tentacle, feeler, pseudopod, or similar attack form, you don't meet the prerequisite.

---

The question becomes: 'Does Aberrant Blood (Flexible Limbs) qualify?'

Lacking an in-game definition, we need to resort to using a dictionary. "Flexible" means easy to bend which doesn't help, so lets try the connotation of 'flexibility' when applied to a human body: that is, being able to bend joints to extremes that others cannot. Hyperextension of elbows, popping joints out of sockets and back in without issues, and bending to near-impossible angles. Using the common connotation means that the limbs remain a rigid body.

If the feat were to apply, the adjective used would imply the lack of bones or their non-rigid state. More likely adjectives for that case include 'Pliable', 'Fluid', and 'Prehensile'.

---

Although, if you have a prehensile tail and can attack with it, you probably qualify as tails are non-rigid.

[Curmudgeon]

No tentacle, feeler, pseudopod, or similar attack form, you don't meet the prerequisite..
That's not correct; you also meet the prerequisite if you have a nonrigid body. An ordinary Humanoid body is not particularly rigid (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rigid) to begin with.
rigid
-adjective

1. stiff or unyielding; not pliant or flexible; hard: a rigid strip of metal. A body composed only partly of hard bones, with yielding softer tissues, probably meets the "nonrigid" prerequisite without alteration. Transforming the limbs to be flexible rather than bony at elbows, knees, & c. makes the body even less rigid.

[Amphetryon]

That's not correct; you also meet the prerequisite if you have a nonrigid body. An ordinary Humanoid body is not particularly rigid (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rigid) to begin with. A body composed only partly of hard bones, with yielding softer tissues, probably meets the "nonrigid" prerequisite without alteration. Transforming the limbs to be flexible rather than bony at elbows, knees, & c. makes the body even less rigid.

I emphasized the sticking point. "Probably" is not a RAW satisfactory level of proof for many a DM.

[Curmudgeon]

I emphasized the sticking point. "Probably" is not a RAW satisfactory level of proof for many a DM.
That's what the transformation of limbs via Aberration Blood provides: an actual in-game mechanism to establish that "nonrigid" requirement.

[Psyren]

That's what the transformation of limbs via Aberration Blood provides: an actual in-game mechanism to establish that "nonrigid" requirement.

It probably does that. :smallwink:

[marphod]

That's not correct; you also meet the prerequisite if you have a nonrigid body. An ordinary Humanoid body is not particularly rigid (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rigid) to begin with.

Uhm. Yeah.


You've never taken a class in rigid body dynamics or static engineering, have you.


A "rigid body" is an idealized solid where the relative position (ignoring deformations) of two points in the object does not change regardless of how the body is manipulated. For instance, take 2 points on your upper arm. Move the arm any way you like, the relative position of those two points does not change.

Rigid body dynamics is the study of interconnected rigid bodies.

Human forms are interconnected rigid bodies, and are well-modeled by rigid body dynamics. Your chest, upper arms, lower arms, palms, upper and lower legs, feet, and hips are all considered rigid bodies. You could argue that your abdomen and your fingers are non-rigid bodies, but if you have an attack form that uses your fingers without the rest of your hand, or your abdomen, you've studied some pretty weird martial arts.

If you want a creature that cannot be modeled by rigid body dynamics, take a squid or octopus. Eels and Snakes have (arguably) non-rigid bodies. Your Hair is a non-rigid body. An elephant's trunk. Not a human form.

[Curmudgeon]

You've never taken a class in rigid body dynamics or static engineering, have you.
Several, actually: undergrad at M.I.T., and TA'd a couple in grad school at Stanford. But of course that's not the relevant question. The right question is: did the authors of Savage Species have such a specific definition in mind when they wrote "your flexible body"?

[ekarney]

Several, actually: undergrad at M.I.T., and TA'd a couple in grad school at Stanford. But of course that's not the relevant question. The right question is: did the authors of Savage Species have such a specific definition in mind when they wrote "your flexible body"?

Yeah usually I don't like to get involved in rules debates.
But I think the creators wrote the rules with people in mind who whilst have an acceptable literacy level, weren't taking classes in rigid body dynamics or static engineering. It'd be a pretty terrible choice to market the game solely at those students :P

[Psyren]

Several, actually: undergrad at M.I.T., and TA'd a couple in grad school at Stanford. But of course that's not the relevant question. The right question is: did the authors of Savage Species have such a specific definition in mind when they wrote "your flexible body"?

"What the authors had in mind when they wrote X" is textbook RAI though, not RAW. RAW cares about what's on the page, not intent.

There are situations, like this one, where what's on the page has multiple interpretations depending on the reader and none of them can definitively be proven right or wrong. It's not the end of the world when that happens.