Paladin Build for new player.

[Squeak]

I have just come back to AD&D after a long break and am trying to make myself a DPS Paladin with either the Ancient or the Vengeance Oath.

My current plan is using the 27 point buy system to go:

STR 15
DEX 10
CON 13
INT 8
WIS 10
CHR 15

with a Variant Human (although I did consider Half-Elf too) so beginning stats are:

STR 16
DEX 10
CON 13 (14 when I pick up Resilient Constitution)
INT 8
WIS 10
CHR 16

If I pick Noble for my profession, I can get History and Persuasion for my background skills, Perception for my (variant) human skill with Athletics and Insight for my class skills.
If I pick Soldier for my profession, I can get Athletics and Intimidation for my background skills, Perception for my (variant) human skill with Persuasion and Insight for my class skills.

Considering (optimistically!) playing up to 20 I will have 5 level ups and the extra human variant feat. I was thinking of using 4 level-ups to boost STR and then CHR to 20, and choosing the Great Weapon Master and Resilience (Constitution) feats. Obviously I will be going Great Weapon Fighting Style at level 2. I did consider Polearm Master but decided that it would be be a waste if I ever got my mitts on a Holy Sword while GWM is always a boost so basically I plan to stick with a Greatsword and a Maul.


My first questions is how big a practical difference is there in DPS between the Ancient and Vengeance Oaths? I think that the Aura of Warding (especially as it affects all nearby party members) and the Elder Champion capstone are big pluses for the Ancient Oath, while the Vow of Enmity and the better spell list (Hold XXX for extra critical damage on smites) are extremely useful DPS increases for the Vengeance Oath.

Second might it be worth sacrificing another level up (so I end up with 18 in either STR or CHR) to get another Feat - perhaps Lucky so that when I do eventually roll fail my saves on something critical I can deal with it or Mage Slayer if we come up across too many powerful enemy spellcasters?

Third are there any other possibilities I haven't considered?

[Ouranos]

Paladin's stable damage per round is kinda low. Polearm Master+Sentinel makes Paladin a monster at preventing enemies from being able to fight you while still killing them easy. You can also go sword and board with Shield Master, the knockdown gives you AND your allies Advantage on attacks against that target, which with the limited number of attacks is a BIG bonus. I play paladin and we finished the Hoard of the Dragon Queen book last time we played, so we're level 8. Having good armor and a shield gives me fantastic protection, and the SM bonuses are super strong when you have a magic shield too. Throw in the power of a well timed Smite (You can wait til your hit is confirmed to choose to Smite, which is rather amazing) and instead of trying to do steady hits, you hit like a truck now and again and let that carry you through.

[Squeak]

Thank you - this was pretty much the additional info I was hoping for. I am a wary of getting Polearm Master for a feat though as it would be be a waste if I ever got my mitts on a Holy Sword, although if I go 2H then GWM is a must. In that case would the best choice for my second feat be Resilient (CON)? And do people find this really helpful for concentration and saves late game?

If I go Sword and Board, I thinking of getting Shield Master and Resilient (CON). I can't see any choice better than SM for a S&B, as the extra bonus shove action is great, and the other benefits can be decent too. Again is Resilient (CON) the best choice here? And does Shield Master still remain useful against enemies late-game since the alternative extra damage from GWM if I go 2H is always available.

Finally, is there a huge difference in DPS between 2H with GWM and S&B with Shield Master? I think given the other benefits I'd be fine with S&B if going 2H was, say, an extra 25-30% damage but would probably go 2H if the extra damage was nearer 50% extra.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thank you - this was pretty much the additional info I was hoping for. I am a wary of getting Polearm Master for a feat though as it would be be a waste if I ever got my mitts on a Holy Sword, although if I go 2H then GWM is a must. In that case would the best choice for my second feat be Resilient (CON)? And do people find this really helpful for concentration and saves late game?

If I go Sword and Board, I thinking of getting Shield Master and Resilient (CON). I can't see any choice better than SM for a S&B, as the extra bonus shove action is great, and the other benefits can be decent too. Again is Resilient (CON) the best choice here? And does Shield Master still remain useful against enemies late-game since the alternative extra damage from GWM if I go 2H is always available.

Finally, is there a huge difference in DPS between 2H with GWM and S&B with Shield Master? I think given the other benefits I'd be fine with S&B if going 2H was, say, an extra 25-30% damage but would probably go 2H if the extra damage was nearer 50% extra.
Who else is in your party? Sword and board works pretty well as a Paladin, you may not need to be Mr DPS except for a burst here and there with Divine Smite for the big monsters.

[Ouranos]

Paladin is a nuker when it comes to going damage build. If you go two handed, you wait til you crit and then drop a Smite with it to do tons of damage in a single hit. Paladins are not steady melee. I've gone very tank centric myself and I love it. Here's the deal though, in 5th they've really gone away from artifact stuff like Holy Avengers, and instead left it up to DM's to do their thing and get creative, AND most of the current Splat material is for Forgotten Realms, where magic weapons are rarer to begin with. SO, if you have a DM who WOULD have given you a Holy Avenger (which was 1 handed anyway) he can instead give you, say, a Holy Halberd, for example. Now, GWM applies to ANY weapon with the heavy property, as does Great Weapon Fighting style applying to any weapon in two hands. SO, a Halberd becomes an OUTSTANDING weapon with GWM, Sentinel, and Polearm Master. Makes you deadly against charging enemies. I'm a sword and board man, and SM is amazing to me. I DON'T recommend taking Resilient for Con, instead take the ASI to Charisma because Charisma gets added to saves for you AND the party later on.

[Squeak]

Who else is in your party? Sword and board works pretty well as a Paladin, you may not need to be Mr DPS except for a burst here and there with Divine Smite for the big monsters.

It is a 'open' 5e game so there are often 8-10 players, and we don't have any tank characters. So S&B might be useful, but not essential given the sheer number of targets in our group and that monsters rarely seem to survive the massive alpha strikes that happen. (Also our 'stealth strike' team of 2 rogues and 2 monks tend to get surprise and can very badly mess up any mobs day....)




Paladin is a nuker when it comes to going damage build. If you go two handed, you wait til you crit and then drop a Smite with it to do tons of damage in a single hit. Paladins are not steady melee. I've gone very tank centric myself and I love it. Here's the deal though, in 5th they've really gone away from artifact stuff like Holy Avengers, and instead left it up to DM's to do their thing and get creative, AND most of the current Splat material is for Forgotten Realms, where magic weapons are rarer to begin with. SO, if you have a DM who WOULD have given you a Holy Avenger (which was 1 handed anyway) he can instead give you, say, a Holy Halberd, for example. Now, GWM applies to ANY weapon with the heavy property, as does Great Weapon Fighting style applying to any weapon in two hands. SO, a Halberd becomes an OUTSTANDING weapon with GWM, Sentinel, and Polearm Master. Makes you deadly against charging enemies. I'm a sword and board man, and SM is amazing to me. I DON'T recommend taking Resilient for Con, instead take the ASI to Charisma because Charisma gets added to saves for you AND the party later on.

I went variant human so that I can maximize my STR and CHR as well as getting two feats. So for S&B, Shield Master and Resilience (CON) are my currently planned choices, but I would be fine with other feats if there is a good enough argument. If I go two-handed its more tricky: GWM and Resilience (CON) seems to be the safest choices, but I could go GWM, Sentinel, and Polearm Master if I drop either of STR or CON down to 18. Given my +saves aura for the entire party (eventually), taking STR down to 18 might counter-intuitively for a DPS melee actually be the better option.

Also does anyone have a rough idea of the DPS difference between going

(1) S&B with Duelist fighting style and Shield Master and Resilience (CON).
(2) 2H with GWF and GWM and Resilience (CON).
(3) 2H with GWF and GWM, Sentinel, and Polearm Master.

given that for the last option I would have to drop my STR (or possibly CHR) to 18?

Also my current plan is taking Oath of the Ancients, but if I go the full offense route I would probably consider going for the Vengeance Oath.

[Fighting_Ferret]

Here's an idea... what does the character define as important? Forget the math for a minute and all the questions about optimization and look to the character's motivations, history, etc. Anyone can tell you what is mathematically superior in minutia, but that's not what we are doing here... you will be portraying a character in a larger story, one of many. There is still time to define levels 2-20 later and some decisions may be put off. What has made your character who they are up to this point in their life? Do you want the maxed stats or are they particularly intelligent, but not so charismatic (until they take their oath at level 3, and then their ASI could be CHA at 14). Sure it's not optimal...

If that isn't what you want and you want to be the most optimized Holy Avenger ever to have lived, then go forth and smite!
If however the idea to let your character develop naturally interests you, then pick choices that reflect what they have experienced.

[Ouranos]

Here's an idea... what does the character define as important? Forget the math for a minute and all the questions about optimization and look to the character's motivations, history, etc. Anyone can tell you what is mathematically superior in minutia, but that's not what we are doing here... you will be portraying a character in a larger story, one of many. There is still time to define levels 2-20 later and some decisions may be put off. What has made your character who they are up to this point in their life? Do you want the maxed stats or are they particularly intelligent, but not so charismatic (until they take their oath at level 3, and then their ASI could be CHA at 14). Sure it's not optimal...

If that isn't what you want and you want to be the most optimized Holy Avenger ever to have lived, then go forth and smite!
If however the idea to let your character develop naturally interests you, then pick choices that reflect what they have experienced.

SO MUCH THIS. My paladin started off with a two handed hammer. Now he's sword and shield and has literally held an entire ROOM of enemies at bay by standing in a doorway. :)