Skilled rogue

[PoeticDwarf]

In our level 17 party we have a backstapping CN (or CE) rogue, he is a nice guy and he helps us in fights but the problem are his skills.
With +16 deception, +17 stealth and +22 sleight of hand (a uncommon item giving you +5 with sleight of hand and thieves tools if I remember correctly), he can do most chaotic stupid things.
Stealing from party members with at least 32 and highest passive perception 19, or lying to everyone, it is really unpleasant when he steals something, and then just says with +16 (maybe disadvantage) he doesn't know where the item in fact is. Can I do something about this, or is it party of the rogue?

[Demonic Spoon]

Is the problem an OOC issue where you don't like the fact that your party contains someone who is actively working against you? If so, then (ask the DM to) tell the player to knock it off.

Aside from that - you could consider doing regular perception checks rather than using the passive perception. Using passive perception for contesting stealth and sleight of hand does mean that at some point it is literally impossible for the rogue in question to ever fail to steal something.

Though, really, it sounds like the issue is the first thing I mentioned, and the problem is that you have a backstabbing character in the party.

[Corey]

In our level 17 party we have a backstapping CN (or CE) rogue, he is a nice guy and he helps us in fights but the problem are his skills.
With +16 deception, +17 stealth and +22 sleight of hand (a uncommon item giving you +5 with sleight of hand and thieves tools if I remember correctly), he can do most chaotic stupid things.
Stealing from party members with at least 32 and highest passive perception 19, or lying to everyone, it is really unpleasant when he steals something, and then just says with +16 (maybe disadvantage) he doesn't know where the item in fact is. Can I do something about this, or is it party of the rogue?

You could cast Zone of Truth.

You could cast Suggestion on him.

You could cast Conjure Woodland Creatures, specify the only CR 1 fey in the Monster Manual, and have a pair of Dryads charm him. (And when they're having sex with him, you could go through his stuff.)

Or you could just beat him up.

[JackPhoenix]

He may lie however well he likes, but if the items always disappear when he's around, and not with other perceivable cause, well...it doesn't matters what he says, he's still gonna get searched for them and/or punched.

[D.U.P.A.]

I'd rule that the 'defensive' checks in pvp hostile actions are passed automatically, because unless they were first met at 17 level, they know each other so very well that you just cannot trick them. You may lie to the NPC you first met, because he has no clue who the rogue is, but with someone you spent years it is different.

[PoeticDwarf]

Is the problem an OOC issue where you don't like the fact that your party contains someone who is actively working against you? If so, then (ask the DM to) tell the player to knock it off.

Aside from that - you could consider doing regular perception checks rather than using the passive perception. Using passive perception for contesting stealth and sleight of hand does mean that at some point it is literally impossible for the rogue in question to ever fail to steal something.

Though, really, it sounds like the issue is the first thing I mentioned, and the problem is that you have a backstabbing character in the party.

OOC it isn't a real issue, because the player as I said is a nice guy, but still it isn't always good. With at least 27 stealth, 32 sleight of hand and 26 deception (level 11 rogue feature) my insight and perception of +9 aren't still just enough, with the sleight of hand I can't detect it, and I have the best insight and perception of the party.

[PoeticDwarf]

I'd rule that the 'defensive' checks in pvp hostile actions are passed automatically, because unless they were first met at 17 level, they know each other so very well that you just cannot trick them. You may lie to the NPC you first met, because he has no clue who the rogue is, but with someone you spent years it is different.

My monk I played from level 1 just died, so he just met my ranger :smalleek: , still a good rule.

[Cybren]

OOC it isn't a real issue, because the player as I said is a nice guy, but still it isn't always good. With at least 27 stealth, 32 sleight of hand and 26 deception (level 11 rogue feature) my insight and perception of +9 aren't still just enough, with the sleight of hand I can't detect it, and I have the best insight and perception of the party.

The problem is totally an OOC one: if the campaign (and i think this ist rue for 80% of them) is made less fun for that kind of antagonism, then the DM shouldn't let them do it. In the 20% of situations that it would be fun or make sense, you probably shouldn't even bother with dice unless you plan on being very very mechanistic about an interaction that is probably better served narratively. That is, I only think PCs doing things against other PCs really works if both parties ahead of time decide it would be interesting, and have an exit strategy in mind for what happens.

[Demonic Spoon]

OOC it isn't a real issue, because the player as I said is a nice guy, but still it isn't always good. With at least 27 stealth, 32 sleight of hand and 26 deception (level 11 rogue feature) my insight and perception of +9 aren't still just enough, with the sleight of hand I can't detect it, and I have the best insight and perception of the party.


It's not about whether or not the player is a jerk, it's about whether the character he is playing is causing problems for the group.

[SharkForce]

as noted, if you're walking around with this guy all the time and you know he's a world-class thief (because he consistently swipes important things from enemies all the time) and liar (because he consistently does that too, and your stuff is mysteriously disappearing, that doesn't mean you are going to believe him. it means you can't see any tells that give away the fact he's lying, and you can't see him stealing your stuff. deception is not the jedi mind trick.

for example, consider tasslehoff burrfoot, a kender (dragonlance settings) who is one of the main characters in the dragonlance main story. nobody ever notices him stealing things. he genuinely belives he didn't steal anything (that's just how kender are) and thus would effectively be the same as passing a deception check. but that didn't mind control anyone into really believing he didn't take their stuff, or prevent them from occasionally going through his stuff to find the thing that disappeared. everyone knew he was the only one willing and able to take their stuff, and as a result they knew exactly where it went to (well, not *exactly* where it went to... kender have a lot of pouches, and it could be in any one of them).

your party will be the same. it doesn't matter if you can't tell he's lying. you're still perfectly capable of suspecting him.

but yeah, mostly this seems like something to resolve OOC. one player obviously wants intra-party conflict, and judging from the fact that everyone else is only trying to stop him from doing it, i'd say that the rest of the players don't want intra-party conflict. this is best solved by talking to the player.

[bardo]

Stealing from party members brings back so many memories of playing a Kender. Solving this in-game will probably lead to a confrontation between the characters. It might be fun. It might get violent. It might end very badly.

I would suggest talking to the player. Decide together whether you want to resolve it in game or out of game.

In game, if your character is the kind of person who needs evidence before making an accusation, cast Locate Object and/or other divination spells to find out what happened to your items. When the evidence trail leads to the rogue's backpack, call the rogue a dirty thief and get the snowball rolling.

It's all fun and games until a Kender gets tossed into a volcano.

Bardo

[ImSAMazing]

Thats the power of becoming that high of a level. Just search for evidence (you dont get Locate Object for nothing) and if you find it confrontate him ingame.

[D.U.P.A.]

My monk I played from level 1 just died, so he just met my ranger :smalleek: , still a good rule.

Still others from your party can warn you. Unless the whole party is against you. But you already said he steals from the whole party.

[Safety Sword]

Sounds like your rogue's player is using role playing to be a jerk.

I don't like playing with people that do this. It's a cooperative game and if all of the stealing from party members is making the game less fun for everyone then your DM should put a stop to it.

As others have said, this it totally an OOC issue.

[Battlebooze]

Pay a researcher to find a tempting cursed item that really sucks for a rogue. Work with your gamesmaster. Then make sure he hoists himself by his own petard.