RAI - Iron Heart Surge

[Segev]

So, we all know the TO that can be constructed around or using iron heart surge. But let's think about it from a practical standpoint. I think we all probably have some idea of what it is meant to do. It's supposed to be heroic resolve or willpower shoving aside things that are holding you back: breaking out of mind control, shattering that stone shell of petrification surrounding you, forcing yourself to move in spite of paralysis...

And we also are aware of many of its problems: its imprecise wording, its standard action which doesn't say it can be taken even when you can't act...


However, how would we word it so that it does what it was designed to do, and avoid most of the TO things it probably wasn't meant to do?

[Brookshw]

Define condition and effect. Done.

[Jarmen4u]

Sorry, I've seen this around a lot and I feel stupid asking, but what is a TO? What does it mean/stand for? I'm so lost :smalleek:

[Swaoeaeieu]

Sorry, I've seen this around a lot and I feel stupid asking, but what is a TO? What does it mean/stand for? I'm so lost :smalleek:

theoretical optimization. or the practise of trying to get the most out of the rules by looking at the wording alone. Using the rules as written to get insane power, even if it was not really intended by the makers of the rules for them to be used that way.

at least that is what i have figured out in all my lurking

[Jormengand]

Define condition and effect. Done.

Condition is already pretty well defined. The Conditions are Ability Damaged, Ability Drained, Blinded, Blown Away, Checked, Confused, Cowering, Dazed, Dazzled, Dead, Deafened, Disabled, Dying, Energy Drained, Entangled, Exhausted, Fascinated, Fatigued, Flat-Footed, Frightened, Grappling, Helpless, Incorporeal, Invisible, Knocked Down, Nauseated, Panicked, Paralyzed, Petrified, Pinned, Prone, Shaken, Sickened, Stable, Staggered, Stunned, Turned and Unconscious. Effect is the big one, but we do know that spells, powers, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, damage, die modifiers, anything that grants armour or shield bonuses and isn't armour or a shield, anything that grants deflection bonuses, anything that dodge bonuses protect against, morale bonuses, and the effects of attacks are effects, and feats, conditions, being lost, quicksand, altitude, and several other things (including traps, and, by and large, the weather) have them. If we take the interpretation that only those things explicitly called out as effects are effects, then that's still a dizzying array of things that you can just turn off if you can make the argument that they're affecting you.

[Segev]

Ah, yes, probably need to reword it so that it doesn't "end the effect" so much as "allow you to act normally in spite of it."


Something like, "As a standard action which you can take even during a round in which you would normally be forbidden from acting, you can use this maneuver to render yourself immune to the specific instances of every condition or effect affecting you at the moment you use it. This immunity lasts until the effect or condition ends, but does not extend to new instances of such effects or conditions."

Still a bit messy, but at least means you're not turning off a daylight spell by using IHS to resist the dazzling effect from your light blindness racial trait.

[Extra Anchovies]

There are two primary concerns:
1. Is Iron Heart Surge meant to be usable when afflicted with a condition that prevents movement and/or the taking of a standard action? As written, paralyzed, stunned, dazed, and nauseated are all conditions that IHS cannot remove.
2. Is Iron Heart Surge meant to only be able to remove conditions with a duration measured in rounds? As written, it cannot remove conditions with a duration measured in units other than rounds (e.g. minutes, hours, days, etc), nor can it remove conditions with instantaneous or unspecified durations (e.g. having less than maximum hit points, or suffering from a disease).

Between the two of those, there are very few conditions that A) can be removed and B) are worth spending a standard action to remove.

[Psyren]

Didn't the unofficial ToB community errata (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=13292.0) already address this? It seems fairly robust.

Reposting here:


Page 68 - Iron Heart Surge [Clarification]
Iron Heart Surge is capable of removing any one of the following conditions each time it is initiated:

Blinded, Confused, Dazzled, Deafened, Energy Drained, Entangled, Exhausted, Fatigued, Flat-Footed, Frightened, Immobilized, Knocked Down, Nauseated, On Fire, Prone, Shaken, Sickened, Slowed, Staggered, Turned.
Any spell/power, spell-like/psi-like ability or supernatural ability with a duration lasting longer than one round, provided you are either being targeted by the spell or are within the spell's radius.
Any racial trait currently affecting the initiator (such as Light Sensitivity or a vampire's weakness to sunlight). The source of this detriment is not removed, only the condition caused by the racial trait.
Any extraordinary ability currently affecting the initiator (such as the Frenzy ability of a Frenzied Berserker, or the "Bleeding Wounds" inflicted by certain creatures).
Any ability hindering the initiator caused by an item (alchemical, mundane, magical, or otherwise), such as a caltrop wound.


Any effect not listed above is outside of Iron Heart Surge's range of influence. These conditions cannot be removed, even if their source is a spell's effect or similar ability (such as being dazed by a psionic power, or being affected by a bard's Fascinate ability).

Additionally, some effects can be reinstated at any point during the rest of the round, after you have initiated Iron Heart Surge (for example, a vampire's weakness to sunlight will reinstate its effects at the end of the vampire's turn, unless he uses his move action to exit the sunlight. The move action would be possible immediately after initiating Iron Heart Surge).

[Extra Anchovies]

Although the community fix does a good job of enumerating what can be removed, Nauseated shouldn't be on that list because the condition prevents you from initiating IHS in the first place.

Other than that it's fine. Just a minor nitpick.

[heavyfuel]

I actually quite enjoy letting IHS breaking things like Nauseated and Paralyzed. Seems like the kind of stuff it was actually intended to disrupt.

In my tables, IHS works on pretty much any conditions other than Staggered (if due to low HP) and Dead, and is an Immediate Action instead of Standard. I also have raised it's level from 3 to 4 and it no longer affects effects (heh)

[Psyren]

I agree, it should be allowed to shake of nausea and paralysis. A powerful martial should be able to overcome these sorts of things.

[Flickerdart]

Yep, just add "If a condition from the list is preventing you from acting, you can still initiate Iron Heart Surge to end that condition" or something, and then add stunned/nauseated/paralyzed/etc to the list.

[Chronos]

My favorite proposed erratum to IHS is to just replace the entire text with the words "By Crom!". Which pretty well sums it up.


Quoth Swaoeaeieu:

theoretical optimization. or the practise of trying to get the most out of the rules by looking at the wording alone. Using the rules as written to get insane power, even if it was not really intended by the makers of the rules for them to be used that way.
More precisely, TO is optimization to the point that it wouldn't be allowed at most tables, as distinct from practical optimization (PO), which is powerful but would be allowed. The line between the two is blurry and varies a bit from table to table: Some TO is less powerful than some PO, and relies on more straightforward reading, but might still be banned because it's silly or immersion-breaking.

Though using IHS to extinguish the Sun is probably going to be TO at every table.

[noob]

Even on a table allowing the spell consumptive field?