Clerics, deities, and certain alignments.

[tadkins]

Was thinking about this just now and thought it would be kind of amusing to post about it.

Clerics stand for the ideals of their deities (and planar lords), and the rules state that they must be within one alignment step from them, right? There are a few deities and alignment choices that just seem weird to me though. How would you explain the following from an RP standpoint?

1. True Neutral Cleric of St. Cuthbert. He's all about the law and justice, right? How would you worship him without having that aspect a part of yourself?

2. Chaotic Neutral Cleric of Orcus. Serving one of the greatest forces of evil in the universe without succumbing it to yourself?

3. Neutral Evil Cleric of Fharlanghn. I'm going to bring EEEVIL to the roads you travel! Muahahaha!

There are a few other stranger ones I thought of that are at least a little more explainable, like a LG Cleric of Wee Jas and a LN Cleric of Asmodeus, but those are the three that stuck out the most. What do you guys think, how would you go about them?

[DrMotives]

I suppose to keep things making sense, you'd want to use the rule about clerics being in one step as a starting point, a guideline, and over-ruling that where you see fit. I agree that a non-evil cleric or Orcus just makes no sense whatsoever, he's the god of not only undead, but also spite.

But it's interesting you mention Wee Jas, as in canon Wee Jas has an order of paladins, the Ruby Knights. It's in the fluff for Ruby Knight Vindicator. One thing to resolve a Wee Jas church staffed by paladins or LG clerics with another Wee Jas church staffed by LE clerics is to say that much like RL churches, there are schisms. I think forum rules prevent me from getting into specific real world examples, but a Ruby Knight church of Wee Jas would be at odds and possibly holy war with an evil Wee Jas church, especially if that one has LE crusaders or paladins of tyranny among it's officers. And then the LN temple thinks both the others are weird fringe groups out of step with their god's moral neutrality, and therefor wrong.

[RedMage125]

Despite all the attention paid to monks, barbarians and especially paladins, clerics are the class with the most wonky rules and restrictions...alignment especially.

As per your examples:
1) True Neutral (properly just called "neutral" in the PHB) is an exception to the "one step" rule. A cleric may only be Neutral if his deity is also neutral (PHB, page 31). So no Neutral clerics of St. Cuthbert.

2) While that is an interesting dilemma, no one is going to believe he is not evil. Since he has a powerful Evil Aura, and thus pings on a Detect Evil spell. Also strange: Even though he is not Evil himself, he cannot cast spells with the [Good] descriptor. Orcus doesn't grant [Good] spells.

3) That is another weird one. I tried coming up with something for it, but got nothing. Also strange: This guy can ALSO not cast [Good] spells. Even though his deity grants them, he cannot prepare or cast them. Also, he does NOT have a powerful Evil aura, because his deity is neutral. Now, because he is evil, he will register on a Detect Evil spell, but no more powerfully than a Fighter or Rogue of the same level. He would not use the 4th row on the Detect Evil chart.

A LG Cleric of Wee Jas makes a lot more sense when you know about the deity. For example, she is a death goddess, but she is a Keeper of Souls. She is responsible for the souls of all Suel people. She's a god of law and justice, as well, and her laws are absolute and unwavering.

A LN cleric of Asmodeus makes sense, mainly in settings where Asmodeus is a true deity and not just an archdevil. Namely because in those settings, he is a god of tyranny (who would no doubt prefer that couched as Rulership). Those in power who benefit from the status quo and seek to preserve it would worship him openly. And in Pathfinder, for example, his faith is the official religion of the nation of Cheliax. A LN cleric is likely someone who is devoted to the absolute order that Asmodeus' faith represents. He focuses on enforcing laws, chasing down those who break contracts and oaths, and generally keeping the peace. He would have no qualms about working with devils, but prefers not to summon them himself (as repeated summonings would cause him to shift alignment, and we are presuming a cleric who is still LN).

So, other weird crap about clerics...A human raised among dwarves cannot be a cleric of Moradin.

Say what?

It's true, check out your PHB. If a deity's portfolio includes a race (Corellon, Garl Glittergold, Yondalla, and Moradin), then ONLY members of that race can be clerics (PHB, page 32).

[tadkins]

I suppose to keep things making sense, you'd want to use the rule about clerics being in one step as a starting point, a guideline, and over-ruling that where you see fit. I agree that a non-evil cleric or Orcus just makes no sense whatsoever, he's the god of not only undead, but also spite.

But it's interesting you mention Wee Jas, as in canon Wee Jas has an order of paladins, the Ruby Knights. It's in the fluff for Ruby Knight Vindicator. One thing to resolve a Wee Jas church staffed by paladins or LG clerics with another Wee Jas church staffed by LE clerics is to say that much like RL churches, there are schisms. I think forum rules prevent me from getting into specific real world examples, but a Ruby Knight church of Wee Jas would be at odds and possibly holy war with an evil Wee Jas church, especially if that one has LE crusaders or paladins of tyranny among it's officers. And then the LN temple thinks both the others are weird fringe groups out of step with their god's moral neutrality, and therefor wrong.

For sure, I was trying to come up with some kind of justification for a CN Cleric of Orcus and coming up empty. xD

I'll have to check again, but I thought the Ruby Knights came from the Crusader class, since it was out of the ToB, and thus were primarily LN. I was under the impression that Wee Jas was a LN god with LE leanings, and that LG Clerics and Paladins of Wee Jas were something of a rarity.



As per your examples:
1) True Neutral (properly just called "neutral" in the PHB) is an exception to the "one step" rule. A cleric may only be Neutral if his deity is also neutral (PHB, page 31). So no Neutral clerics of St. Cuthbert.

Ah, I actually didn't know this one. Thanks for the clarification.


2) While that is an interesting dilemma, no one is going to believe he is not evil. Since he has a powerful Evil Aura, and thus pings on a Detect Evil spell. Also strange: Even though he is not Evil himself, he cannot cast spells with the [Good] descriptor. Orcus doesn't grant [Good] spells.

Exactly! Everything about Orcus is just evil of the worst degree, but according to the rules a CN cleric can exist. xD


3) That is another weird one. I tried coming up with something for it, but got nothing. Also strange: This guy can ALSO not cast [Good] spells. Even though his deity grants them, he cannot prepare or cast them. Also, he does NOT have a powerful Evil aura, because his deity is neutral. Now, because he is evil, he will register on a Detect Evil spell, but no more powerfully than a Fighter or Rogue of the same level. He would not use the 4th row on the Detect Evil chart.

For sure. From an RP sense, I'm just having a hard time mixing "roads and travel" with "evil".


A LG Cleric of Wee Jas makes a lot more sense when you know about the deity. For example, she is a death goddess, but she is a Keeper of Souls. She is responsible for the souls of all Suel people. She's a god of law and justice, as well, and her laws are absolute and unwavering.

It makes sense as she's pretty hard-set LN. She doesn't seem to care much for Good though.


A LN cleric of Asmodeus makes sense, mainly in settings where Asmodeus is a true deity and not just an archdevil. Namely because in those settings, he is a god of tyranny (who would no doubt prefer that couched as Rulership). Those in power who benefit from the status quo and seek to preserve it would worship him openly. And in Pathfinder, for example, his faith is the official religion of the nation of Cheliax. A LN cleric is likely someone who is devoted to the absolute order that Asmodeus' faith represents. He focuses on enforcing laws, chasing down those who break contracts and oaths, and generally keeping the peace. He would have no qualms about working with devils, but prefers not to summon them himself (as repeated summonings would cause him to shift alignment, and we are presuming a cleric who is still LN).

Aye, I figured a LN cleric of Asmodeus would simply focus more on the law aspect than the evil.


So, other weird crap about clerics...A human raised among dwarves cannot be a cleric of Moradin.

Say what?

It's true, check out your PHB. If a deity's portfolio includes a race (Corellon, Garl Glittergold, Yondalla, and Moradin), then ONLY members of that race can be clerics (PHB, page 32).

I remember starting up one of my first characters, a cleric archer. He was originally going to be a human, but got changed to an elf solely so he could have the Elf domain. The DM wouldn't let me worship an elf god as a human. xD

[hamishspence]

Exactly! Everything about Orcus is just evil of the worst degree, but according to the rules a CN cleric can exist. xD


And could probably cast Good spells - after all, there's nothing in the "Orcus clerics" descriptions in BoVD and FC1 forbidding it.
Ignore that - it's "spells opposed to cleric or deity's nature in PHB - I forgot that.

[torrasque666]

1. True Neutral Cleric of St. Cuthbert. He's all about the law and justice, right? How would you worship him without having that aspect a part of yourself?

In addition to what RedMage said, St. Cuthbert explicitly doesn't allow anything other than LG or LN cleric. (Also PHB 31)

[Khedrac]

3. Neutral Evil Cleric of Fharlanghn. I'm going to bring EEEVIL to the roads you travel! Muahahaha!
The comment next to this one is wrong - and why you cannot come up with an example.

An evil follower of Fharlanghan is not trying to bring evil to the roads, quite the contrary he is trying to protect the roads, but happens to be a really nasty guy personally.
The sort of things he will do might include torturing highwaymen he captures to make sure they don't do it again.
Whilst a good follower might hire peasants to repair a road, the evil one might use slaves (and mistreat them too).
"That farmer has let his cattle stray the road - kill them all so it doesn't happen again!" (Cattle or farm hands, your choice).

For most clerics the deity determines their goals, their alignment depends on how they go about them.

So, that takes us back to the CN cleric of Orcus. This chap is probably someone raised to venerate Orcus and the undead - he's just personally quite a nice guy.
The sort of person who on arriving at a small village will go around healing the sick and helping people with their problems, before going to the cemetery and animating all the corpses...
Of course, since someone did slight him he will probably then send the undead to burn the village down, but that's Chaotic Neutral for you.
He is probably also functionally insane. (Similar to quite a lot of cultists in Call of Cthulhu.)

[Vogie]

1. True Neutral Cleric of St. Cuthbert. He's all about the law and justice, right? How would you worship him without having that aspect a part of yourself?
This made me think of those non-heroic supporting roles in police procedural or courtroom dramas. They're for JUSTICE... unless it's too hard. "If that's true, it is clearly breaking the law, but there's no evidence it's him, so why waste time worrying about it? There's other criminals out there, you've got a quota"



2. Chaotic Neutral Cleric of Orcus. Serving one of the greatest forces of evil in the universe without succumbing it to yourself?

I actually could see this as a backwoods pseudo-sherriff-type figure. Chaotic Neutral don't believe in laws or authorities other than themselves, and don't kill the innocent, so I've always had that Wild West/Judge Dredd feel to them. I could see him executing those he decides are guilty, then raising them as free-willed undead as combination of execution and sentencing... not based on actual laws, mind you, just whatever he feels is right or fun.



3. Neutral Evil Cleric of Fharlanghn. I'm going to bring EEEVIL to the roads you travel! Muahahaha!


Evil and Road makes me also think of Crossroads Demons, but Fharlanghn isn't really in that sector. I could see wandering cleric that is hell for bandits, marauders, armies, or anyone who tries to impose law or whatnot on the open roads, not bothering that it would make him/her a bandit, technically. Helping the wanderers or hitchhikers, and overall acting like a wandering Robin Hood without the nobility or "give to the poor" part.

[Red Fel]

I want to jump on the NE Cleric of Farlarglebargle for a moment, because I think there's some great esoteric stuff to explore there.

Farfarfar is the god of roads, right? But what is a road? The roads are a symbol; they represent endless journeys and wanderings, like Falala himself. A TN Cleric of Falafel is a wanderer, like his patron, fine. But those along the other alignment points?

A NG Cleric of Falgabard is a source of refuge on your journey. "Stay awhile, and listen." He's the guy who invites you to share his campfire and rest awhile before you resume your travels. A LN Cleric would be a navigator, of sorts - one who ensures that you're staying to the proper path. A CG Cleric would be Red Riding Hood's Wolf. "Just so, little girl, any path - so many worth exploring." He would encourage you to try a new road, travel a new highway that's never been trod before.

A NE Cleric of Farm Bureau? He's the test. He's the trial. He wants to see if you're worthy to continue traveling on this metaphorical road. He's a shiny demon who says, "Play the best song in the world, or I'll eat your souls." He's a knight in black, flatly announcing, "None shall pass." He sees his role as removing the unworthy from their journeys.

At least, that's how I see an NE Cleric of Farnsworth.

[Inevitability]

Doesn't Eberron have a LN high priest of tiamat?

[hamishspence]

Faerun does, at least (she's in the Dragons of Faerun splatbook, and first appeared in the novel The Alabaster Staff).

I think it's only "Greyhawk Tiamat" that's limited to LE and NE.

[DrMotives]

I recall 1st Edition had an Abyssal layer that was an endless highway, floating in space. It was a layer for a demon lord of the road, but I can't recall the name.

[Chronos]

Quoth RedMage125:

So, other weird crap about clerics...A human raised among dwarves cannot be a cleric of Moradin.
For this specific one, at least, there's an out: Races of Stone has a prestige class called Stoneblessed, for a member of another race who's raised by dwarves (or gnomes or goliaths). Finish all three levels of the class, and you count as being a dwarf (or gnome or goliath) in addition to your birth-race.

Still doesn't help for elves or whatever, though, and it costs you a few levels.

[Telonius]

NE Cleric of Fharllthingie? I'm picturing a particularly nasty highway cop.

[Prime32]

1. True Neutral Cleric of St. Cuthbert. He's all about the law and justice, right? How would you worship him without having that aspect a part of yourself?You can't be a True Neutral cleric unless your deity is True Neutral. But in any case you could explain it as a guy who became a cleric by following tradition.


2. Chaotic Neutral Cleric of Orcus. Serving one of the greatest forces of evil in the universe without succumbing it to yourself?Admires Orcus for his free spirit and drive; does not complain about Orcus's evil actions because he thinks that everyone should be free to choose good or evil. He does, however, play up his patron's terrifying image whenever he needs to intimidate someone who's being overly lawful.


3. Neutral Evil Cleric of Fharlanghn. I'm going to bring EEEVIL to the roads you travel! Muahahaha!Take a more metaphorical approach to "journeys", and dedicate yourself to changing peoples' situations and perspectives.

[tadkins]

farlarglebargle

farfarfar

falala

falafel

falgabard

farm bureau

farnsworth.

fharllthingie

oh you guys

[torrasque666]

Well, its either butcher his name or keep calling him Farfegnugen

[Honest Tiefling]

Thanks to this thread, I now wish to make some sort of opposite of Leatherface or whatever. A cleric of Flargle that doesn't lure in travelers to kill them, but treats them very nicely and gives them a warm bed and a nice chat, maybe even some cookies to take with them. And then uses that to pick up information on where to find people preying upon travelers and does very unpleasant things about that problem that ruins the upholstery.

Maybe even pick up some points in leatherworking.

[Dondasch]

Since the points about the followers of Cuthbert, Orcus, and Farbarging have been made, what other odd combos can we think of?
My first idea is a CN cleric of Erythnul, the god of slaughter.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think a LN cleric of Bane is VERY hard to pull off, since you really aren't encouraged to do your own thing in that church. So avoiding all of the evil when your buddies are busy tying skeletons to the underside of wagons as a standard procedure would be quite difficult. I think it could be done, but it would be hard.

[Kantolin]

I think people are adding a little more to Fharlanghn than is there - the guy isn't good, he's neutral. He doesn't particularly care what happens on the road, nor why people are traveling, just that there /is/ a road (or really 'an ability to encourage travel') and that travel is happening.

Heck, burning someone's house down can cause them to travel. Just be someone who has a predisposition away from sedentary lifestyles - no farming, no stationary. More nomads. Less stationary! Sure you could ask people to travel, but that's silly and less effective than burning their house down.

Join a group of evil nomads (who are evil for whatever reason) and we're golden. Slave trade is a bustling trade.

The Smiths can't possibly leave because if they leave then who will care for Grandma Weathers? Well now they've got this strange lack of Grandma Weathers. Very sad and spend a month on a funeral. Then they're not there for any real reason.

And if all this is too chaotic, then mix it with laws that make it surprisingly irritating to stay in one spot. Laws change in an area that makes it hard to be a farmer? Blam, people move.

Or animate some undead in the area, or try to get an orc tribe to move in nearby, or something so people don't want to stay. Make a great sounding program in various other towns so people want to move. Have those programs naturally (or via your emphasis) fall through. Blam, people move again.

Or basically: your goal is to get people moving. Good people care how.

Edit: Insofar as Orcus is concerned, a common trope is someone who doesn't care where their power is coming from, just that they have it. Someone who is emphasizing themselves being a force of chaos (or randomness), or just using the power to do powerful things, wouldn't be so far out of line with Orcus that the deity would be upset (Not like if you were rescuing puppies with it, or sommat). A thief who steals whatever he gets his hands on but doesn't himself murder wouldn't get an eyebat from an evil deity.

Plus, you can often just find one aspect of the deity, and focus on that. You could theoretically follow Erythnul and be good if you're more careful about who precisely gets slaughtered. Go sign up for every war you can think of (on the 'good' side, of course), volunteer to clear out demons and devils and orcs who are causing problems, be an executioner by trade, yadda.

[hamishspence]

My first idea is a CN cleric of Erythnul, the god of slaughter.

Plus, you can often just find one aspect of the deity, and focus on that. You could theoretically follow Erythnul and be good if you're more careful about who precisely gets slaughtered.

A cleric couldn't be good, but an "ordinary worshipper" could.

Run an abattoir, or "slaughterhouse"? It doesn't have to be sapients being "slaughtered" after all.

[Telonius]

An exterminator that likes his job just a bit too much might be good for it.