Can you dispel a spell whose casting time is instantaneous?

[hirojinbrodie]

In a game recently my DM put us up against the main enemy of the campaign. As one might expect it didn't go well as we were unprepared. What surprised me was that he was able to counter all my spells, including my sorcerer only ones. These include Wings of Flurry (Std action casting time) as well as my Wings of Cover (instantaneous casting time). Now my question is, with the enemy having prepared whatever he needed as a quickened spell, could he have countered it. Does Wings of Covers instantaneous action preclude it from counter spelling. And if the DM's character is not a sorcerer, could he even counter the spell in the first place since they are sorcerer only spells.

[JDL]

First, unless the NPC had special feats or class abilities, dispelling requires a standard action. There are two forms he could use, counterspelling or using Dispel Magic.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#counterspells

Counterspells
It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell’s energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.

How Counterspells Work
To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing the ready action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. (You may still move your speed, since ready is a standard action.)

If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things.

To complete the action, you must then cast the correct spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results.

Counterspelling Metamagic Spells
Metamagic feats are not taken into account when determining whether a spell can be countered

Specific Exceptions
Some spells specifically counter each other, especially when they have diametrically opposed effects.

Dispel Magic as a Counterspell
You can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, and you don’t need to identify the spell he or she is casting. However, dispel magic doesn’t always work as a counterspell.

So your enemy spellcaster can either have prepared the same spells as you that day in the case of a prepared spellcaster such as a Wizard, or simply know how to cast the spell in question in the case of a spontaneous spellcaster such as a Sorcerer. Then they can perform a readied action each round: "counterspell any spell you cast" and they will automatically succeed, no saving throw given. Note by RAW they would need to perform a Spellcraft check to identify the spell you're casting first, though often they'll have so many ranks it's virtually impossible to fail.

Otherwise they can do the same tactic using the Dispel Magic, but they need to roll their check first, so it's not a sure thing.

There's a plethora of feats around that alter the usage, giving bonuses to your dispelling checks vs. counterspelling, changing the action to an immediate action, etc. So yes, an NPC can be specifically designed to reliably counterspell anything you throw out.

[hirojinbrodie]

I was afraid of that lol. Any suggestions as to how I can keep my spells from being countered?

[A_S]

I think you may be missing the distinction between countering a spell and dispelling a spell. That's not an unreasonable thing to mix up, since one spell (Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm)) does both.

Countering a spell refers to preventing a spell from being cast as it goes off. Normally, to do this, you have to have an action readied to do so, and you expend a spell of your own to counter it (although there are various abilities in the game that can relax those requirements). The rules for countering spells are here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm). Any spell can be countered, even spells with instantaneous durations, or those cast as swift/immediate actions (like Wings of Cover). If your opponent had an action readied to counter your Wings of Cover, or an ability that let him counter spells without a readied action, it's perfectly possible for him to have countered it. As for not having Wings of Cover available to counter due to not being a Sorcerer, perhaps he simply used Dispel Magic's counterspell version and succeeded on his dispel check?

Dispelling a spell refers to removing a spell effect that's already in place, after the fact. Spells with instantaneous duration can't be dispelled (there's no longer a spell effect in place to be removed). Since both Wings of Cover and Wings of Flurry have instantaneous durations, they can't be dispelled after the fact. It's not clear what that would even mean for Wings of Cover, but in the case of Wings of Flurry it means you can't use Dispel Magic or similar spells to remove the Daze condition after it's already been applied. It doesn't sound like this is what your opponent was doing, though.

[hirojinbrodie]

How does this work when it comes to spell like abilities? Since they lack verbal or somatic components, can someone even attempt to prevent it from being cast when it is more or less a purely mental action (baring seeing a person's thoughts)? Or is the fact the spell is cast all that is needed.

[JDL]

Per the SRD rules for Spell-Like Abilities:


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities

...Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:

...A spell-like ability can be disrupted just as a spell can be. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and to being dispelled by dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated.

So no on Counterspelling, but yes on Dispelling.

[jiriku]

I was afraid of that lol. Any suggestions as to how I can keep my spells from being countered?

You have four chief strategies to pursue:

* Deny your opponent the ability to know you are casting a spell. For example, if you are invisible and your spell has no verbal components, no one will know you are casting.
* Render your spell difficult to counter by increasing its effective spell level and/or caster level so that more resources are required to counter it. This is difficult and expensive.
* Use deception and teamwork to render the counterspeller unable to counter you. For example, if the fighter tackles him, he may be unable to cast. If you delay to time your action with an allied spellcaster and you both cast at once, the enemy can only counter one of you. If you cast more than one spell per round, the opponent may be unable to counter both of them. If the countercaster is unable to identify your spell correctly (say, you use a skill trick to disguise the casting) he may think it is a low-threat spell and elect not to counter it.
* Pre-cast your spells. Long-duration buffs cast before you enter the combat zone can't be countered (although they can be dispelled).

[Chronos]

There's a fifth strategy: Just go on letting the enemy trade actions with you. Every round that that enemy spellcaster is countering your spells, she's not casting her own spells. Since in a typical encounter, the enemy has fewer relevant characters than your party does, this is usually a good trade for the players.

[Diarmuid]

@Chronos,

That assumes the other caster is using standard actions to Counterspell. I dont know all of them off the top of my head right now, but I'm pretty sure there are ways to Counterspell as other action types, like Immediate.

[Jormengand]

@Chronos,

That assumes the other caster is using standard actions to Counterspell. I dont know all of them off the top of my head right now, but I'm pretty sure there are ways to Counterspell as other action types, like Immediate.

There is one that can think of, but it's a salient divine ability. If you're fighting a god optimised for magic, run.


To answer the question, you seem to be mixing up casting time and duration. Spells can be countered or dispelled irrespective of their casting time (Standard or immediate, in this case) but spells with durations of instantaneous can't be dispelled. Abilities such as Iron Heart Surge and Truename Dispel don't dispel abilities (despite the latter's name), so they can end spells if they have instantaneous durations, but effects that last longer. However, the literal reading of those two abilities is rarely used in real games, and the latter is rare to see at all.

[Ruethgar]

Even with immediate action Counterspells that still removes his swift action quickened spells from play, and if you are also quicken casting, or another caster in group is casting, he would have to eat up his standard to stop both unless he has something ridiculous like a vestigial twin, or the multi-headed or multi-armed feats or other ways to break action economy. Even then, he would be burning through the resources of a single character very quickly vs an average of four players.

[Diarmuid]

This also ignores some possible DM_Fiat that might be in play here to make a single BBEG an interesting encounter for a group without adding a bunch of mooks to even the action economy.

I'm firmly of the belief that bad guys dont have to play by the same rules that PC's do as long as it makes sense and is fun for everyone. I'm not saying crazy at will abilities or buffs that dont have any RP background or taking it so far that the PC's have no way to win, but monsters that dont go by the MM statblock or NPC's with extra feats or a couple homebrewed abilities shouldnt be out of bounds. That being said, there should be ways for the PC's to potentially learn about these things or identify them to perhaps help them overcome the new obstacles.

But, this also requires a group of players who understand and embrace this mentality as well and some players arent comfortable with that. I'm not against that either, it just wouldnt be my preferred method of playing.

[Twurps]

I'm not really well-versed in counterspelling but I'm sure there are more ways of countering (if not necessarilly counterspelling) a spell without burning standard actions:

-Spellblades(PGtF?) can absorb a spell
-contingency
-Craft contingent spell

Without rediculous TO those resources are all limited too, but they might save the BBEG quite a few standard-actions anyway.

[fishyfishyfishy]

The feat you are all thinking of is Reactive Counterspell from Magic of Faerun. It allows you to counterspell without readying an action, although it still consumes your standard action for the round as though you did ready your action. It requires improved initiative and improved counterspell.

[MesiDoomstalker]

By RAW, Counterspelling is an action sink. That is to say, it takes the same actions to prevent action of your opponent or a greater action in the case of Swift-Action spells (Quickened). Equally its a resource sink, since you spend a spell slot of equal or greater value as the spell being countered. As others pointed out, if the Big Bad is Countering your every spell, he's not doing anything else of worth. The only thing he is doing is burning both your spell slots and diddly else.

Now, I prefaced this with "by RAW" for a reason. If this is the Big Bad Evil Dude of the game, then your DM is likely fudging that a bit to make him more important/difficult, as the DM's right to do. But I'd call foul if literally every spell you cast is Countered. Thats no fun for you, since your worthless without spells to cast. Ask the DM, next time, if there is some skill check you can roll to puzzle out how he's constantly Counter-Spelling your every spell and how to circumvent it.

[Diarmuid]

The feat you are all thinking of is Reactive Counterspell from Magic of Faerun. It allows you to counterspell without readying an action, although it still consumes your standard action for the round as though you did ready your action. It requires improved initiative and improved counterspell.

That's a 3.0 book, so I guess the poor wording is to be expected. How would that feat work if you've already gone in a round, maybe you'd lose your standard the following round like using an immediate in a round after you've used your swift.

I was actually thinking of the Ring of Spell Battle and other spells like Duelward and Battlemagic Perception.

We dont know what level this game is playing at, but if it's high enough level, Epic Counterspell would certainly fit the bill.

To answer the OP's other points, as have already been done....any spell can be countered by Dispel Magic if they can perceive the casting, have the spell available, and have whatever action it might be for them available.

[Jormengand]

Equally its a resource sink, since you spend a spell slot of equal or greater value as the spell being countered.

Improved counterspell, rapid metamagic, and metamagic reducers for heighten to reduce it by at least 2 should work. Make sure you know at least one spell from each school (This is possible at third level, far before you have the feats you need) and that you're getting loads of extra slots (max that cha, get items that double your low-level spell slots, etc.). You can trade standard actions, one for one, with a wizard, and you're using lower-level slots than the wizard is.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Improved counterspell, rapid metamagic, and metamagic reducers for heighten to reduce it by at least 2 should work. Make sure you know at least one spell from each school (This is possible at third level, far before you have the feats you need) and that you're getting loads of extra slots (max that cha, get items that double your low-level spell slots, etc.). You can trade standard actions, one for one, with a wizard, and you're using lower-level slots than the wizard is.

Even if this is all true, your still burning spell slots to cancel out a single opponents actions. Its a losing battle since anyone else your fighting that can beat on you whilst preventing the caster from getting spells off. Its not a great strategy, even worse when you don't have action economy on your side.

[Jormengand]

Even if this is all true, your still burning spell slots to cancel out a single opponents actions. Its a losing battle since anyone else your fighting that can beat on you whilst preventing the caster from getting spells off. Its not a great strategy, even worse when you don't have action economy on your side.

It's an amazing strategy if trading actions and trading up resources is a good use of your build. If you enjoy dueling wizards, it's the build for you. If you're a BBEG whose minions can't hold off the fighter, rogue and cleric, it is of course a terrible idea.

[MesiDoomstalker]

It's an amazing strategy if trading actions and trading up resources is a good use of your build. If you enjoy dueling wizards, it's the build for you. If you're a BBEG whose minions can't hold off the fighter, rogue and cleric, it is of course a terrible idea.

Let me rephrase. Counterspelling is defensive, reactive. You actively do nothing to end the encounter, unless your goal is to agitate the opposing spellcaster into submission. Using those same spell slots in an attempt to incapcitate your opponent is a better strategy, regardless of what spells you use. Since they actually do something to your opponent besides hedging your bets that you have more slots than they do.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Divine Defiance allows you to counterspell as an immediate action, at the cost of one turn attempt. You can also use synchronicity to ready an action, without having to specify which action you are readying, or against what possibility. Using Linked Power tricks, you can take multiple actions per round that way, though you'll run out of PP pretty quickly.

[fishyfishyfishy]

That's a 3.0 book, so I guess the poor wording is to be expected. How would that feat work if you've already gone in a round, maybe you'd lose your standard the following round like using an immediate in a round after you've used your swift.

I was actually thinking of the Ring of Spell Battle and other spells like Duelward and Battlemagic Perception.

We dont know what level this game is playing at, but if it's high enough level, Epic Counterspell would certainly fit the bill.

To answer the OP's other points, as have already been done....any spell can be countered by Dispel Magic if they can perceive the casting, have the spell available, and have whatever action it might be for them available.

I'm not really sure how it would work in that scenario. It says you can use it once a round on an opponents turn and it takes the place of your normal action. If you've already taken your turn I would assume that you either cannot use the feat that round or that it would prevent you from acting in the following round. It most definitely does not say that is an immediate action. That would be far easier to adjudicate.

[Tvtyrant]

Let me rephrase. Counterspelling is defensive, reactive. You actively do nothing to end the encounter, unless your goal is to agitate the opposing spellcaster into submission. Using those same spell slots in an attempt to incapcitate your opponent is a better strategy, regardless of what spells you use. Since they actually do something to your opponent besides hedging your bets that you have more slots than they do.
But yu can counterspell things that are better than what you yourself can cast. It is also unlikely that the opponent has prepped to stop you from doing so, so in the roshambo of magic it is spock.

[Jormengand]

But yu can counterspell things that are better than what you yourself can cast.

Yeah, this. Suppose you're going full metamagic reducer build, with Easy/Practical Metamagic, Haalruan Elder 1, Metaphysical Spellshaper 3, Escalation Mage 2. You can now counter the enemy's fourths from a cantrip slot. You only need to be 11th level to pull all this off, and you can counter an enemy sorcerer's highest level spells with your firsts. Unless he has rapid metamagic/quicken spell, he can't get a spell off, and if he does have them, he's firing off quickened firsts. Of course, an enemy who optimises to quicken all of his fifths will be able to get two spells off per round, but he still actually risks losing to less optimised builds (phantasmal killer is a fourth-level spell that could kill him, and two of his fifths might leave the enemy alive. Do the maths). You just have to watch out for enemies getting cocky with their sleeps and colour sprays (and if you're not immune to them, may the gods have mercy on your soul).