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kyz
2007-05-10, 07:58 AM
Was reading in a back-issue of Dragon about rogues and it mentioned something about weaponlike spells and sneak attack damage. This made me go "Yeahbuhwhat?" as it is the first time I've ever heard of something like that. It had the same effect on the only person I actually know who I would count as a fountain of DnD and other pen-and-paper RPG knowledge before he gave a "No, unless there is a prestige class for it, I don't think you can."

So now I bring my search for a definitive answer here. Is there any sort of application of sneak attack damage to 'weaponlike spells'? And, if so, how much? And, lastly, what fall into the category of "weaponlike" spells?

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-10, 08:04 AM
I don't know about sneak attacking with a weapon-like spell, but I do know what weapon-like spells are.

A weapon-like spell is anything that requires an attack roll and has a critical hit chance. (CompMage)

Umarth
2007-05-10, 08:07 AM
And you can sneak attack with them just fine.

Ray of frost for 1d3+6d6 sneak. Woot.

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-10, 08:08 AM
I would assume the standard ranged sneak attacking rule applies, and as such requires you to be within 30ft.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-10, 08:09 AM
This was addressed in detail in Complete Arcane, page 86.

You can sneak attack with spells that require an attack roll and deal damage or energy drain.

The damage is of the same type as that of the spell, except for ability damaging and energy draining spells that deal negative energy damage instead.


Standard rules for sneak attacking applies.

Ramza00
2007-05-10, 08:14 AM
p85 and 86 in Complete Arcane deal with sneak attack and spells.

In sum a meteor swarm that hits multiple enemies will do 1 sneak attack for each person hit.

A scorching ray (or any spell that hits multiple times on the same person) has only the first sneak attack applied (not this is an exception to the general rule if the attack has multiple rolls each one gets a sneak attack). If the scorching ray targets multiple people each person gets 1 sneak attack.

You can sneak attack with spells that do negative levels and ability damage. If you sneak attack with Enervation you will do 1d4 negative levels+your sneak attack damage.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-10, 08:20 AM
In sum a meteor swarm that hits multiple enemies will do 1 sneak attack for each person hit.

A scorching ray (or any spell that hits multiple times on the same person) has only the first sneak attack applied (not this is an exception to the general rule if the attack has multiple rolls each one gets a sneak attack). If the scorching ray targets multiple people each person gets 1 sneak attack.


Spells that can strike multiple times in a round only apply bonus damage once, so only the first attack has the potential to deal sneak attack, regardless of number of targets.

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-10, 08:28 AM
This is why I really wanna make a Daggerspell Mage.

kyz
2007-05-10, 08:32 AM
Wow. Okay. Have to keep that in mind.

I suddenly have a new appreciation for scorching ray.

Aquillion
2007-05-10, 09:04 AM
It isn't quite as hot as it looks at first. The problem is, without iterative attacks you're still going to be doing significantly less damage than a well-made melee character or archer.

The best use for it is to carry wands as a rogue and use them with UMD, giving you decent attacks at range. But you probably wouldn't want to build a primary damage-dealer based around it. (Unless there's some other feat, PRC, or something supporting sneak-attack spells that I don't know about.)

ZeroNumerous
2007-05-10, 09:10 AM
Daggerspell Mage is built around sneak-attacking and still casting spells.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-05-10, 09:13 AM
Arcane Trickster (DMG) also progresses spellcasting and sneak attack.

Latronis
2007-05-10, 09:19 AM
Does anyone remember the name of Fax' PrC based around that cloud of daggers spell i've been meaning to see if i can play it with mixed with arcane trickster

Person_Man
2007-05-10, 09:32 AM
For builds that want to maximize damage, it's not worth trying to get Sneak Attack if you're a full caster class. It's much easier to increase your damage by having full caster progression and using metamagic feats. By reducing your caster level and access to higher level spells, you actually end up reducing your average damage per turn. Plus you have Sneak Attack restrictions. Plus, by focusing on spells that require attack rolls, you're missing the boat on more powerful area of effect and battlefield control spells.

For builds that want to be a Skill Monkey with excellent spells, a Beguiler is usually the best choice.

But if for whatever reason you want to be a hybrid PC that's ok at Skills and ok at blasting, then a Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer/Spellwarp Sniper isn't bad.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-10, 10:04 AM
Does anyone remember the name of Fax' PrC based around that cloud of daggers spell i've been meaning to see if i can play it with mixed with arcane trickster

Knifeclouder was the initial, but it was changed to Daggerveil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38671).

Another good spell-SA build is a UMD-Focused Spellthief (CAdv), potentially with a dip into Spellwarp Sniper (CScn). You can blast from wands, Sneak Attack with those spells, and--if you go into Sniper--can change AoEs into rays and therefore Sneak Attack with them...even the ones from wands.

Further, you can forego some of your Sneak Attack dice for a variety of beneficial effects for yourself, including: spell thievery, energy resistance thievery, spell resistance thievery, and ongoing magical effect thievery. There's nothing quite like blasting a cleric with a ray of frost and stealing his divine power and righteous might...and applying them both to yourself.

Latronis
2007-05-10, 10:21 AM
sweet now i don't even have to go a lookin for it thanks fax.

Catch
2007-05-10, 10:29 AM
If the Arcane Trickster is your style, taking Archmage for Arcane Fire is pretty handy. Arcane Fire lets you turn spells into damage rays, so an Archmage 4 can turn a first-level spell into a 5d6 ray. You can sneak attack with those rays and get extra damage.

Fancy.

Latronis
2007-05-10, 11:04 AM
Just take that ray of dex damage dealering and then everything can be sneak attacks

Ikkitosen
2007-05-10, 11:06 AM
Just take that ray of dex damage dealering and then everything can be sneak attacks

If you're implying you can get Sneak Attack by reducing someone's dex then you're wrong, unless you drain it to 0 but then they're helpless, and sneak attack isn't that big a deal.

Also, you can't sneak attack with a ray of clumsiness for all the same reasons you can't sneak attack with a ray of enfeeblement.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-05-10, 11:15 AM
One of my favorite odd arcane trickster builds goes something like this Warlock 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 5/Arcane Trickster 10 (I hope I remembered that right). You qualify for arcane trickster via the assassin's 3rd level spells and the feat from complete arcane that lets you cast mage hand a limited number of times per day. It nets you 10d6 sneak attack, a 6d6 eldritch blast, 3rd level assassin spells, invocations as a 12th level warlock. All in all I think it an interesting combination and an unusual way to qualify for the Arcane Trickster.

Latronis
2007-05-10, 11:17 AM
There's plenty of tricks to get to 0 for most things

And either way it just goes to show that sneak attack spells arn't that big a deal

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-10, 11:57 AM
This very subject came up on the CO boards a couple days ago(Sneak Attacking Mages, which actually sounded like a "How to kill Mages, for Rogues" handbook, but was more about Mages who used Sneak Attack). Reserve Feats are normally not very useful after a certain stage, but for a Rogue going into Arcane Trickster, it's a useful way to bypass DR(Oh, you have DR 50/fancy combination of stuff? Too bad you have no Fire Resistance. Sucks to be you!).:smallwink:

Edit: Oh yes, and you can always try to blind the target. Ray of Enfeeblement+Exhaustion for Wizards and other low Str types(The -Str from Exhaustion is separate, so it stacks with Enfeeblement). Grease works on anyone with crap for Reflex/Dex(and lacking Balance ranks).

Latronis
2007-05-10, 12:13 PM
I didn't think about that... hmmm

it's like a warlock\rogue except you can still pull out some nifty wiz tricks if the occassion calls for it

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-05-10, 01:09 PM
I'm surprised no one has come up with a Warlock/Rogue hybrid yet. Only 'lock hybrids I've seen so far are lock/cleric and lock/wizard....

Really, though. Arcane Trickster is fun, although I tend to go Rogue/Sorcerer/AT/AM personally, using the spells from Sorcerer as a vastly extended bag of tricks rather than considering myself an arcane caster who can also do some sneaking around. Impromptu Sneak Attack is very handy at times if you have no other way of applying Sneak Attacks.

Beguiler is fun too. UMD on wands for obnoxiousness, although I tend to use the Elemental Orbs or Melf's Acid Arrow rather than things like Scorching Ray due to it being a Conjuration effect and not allowing SR.

blacksabre
2007-05-10, 01:14 PM
Not finding any search tools that seperate spells out by ranged touch attack..

Anyone have a list of all the spells that require a ranged touch attack?

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-10, 01:31 PM
Telling Blow is potentially worthwhile for ranged Sneak Attacks, since you get fewer of those than you do melee ones(Flanking, etc.). Thus, anything that relieves some of the burden of needing to catch your opponents flat-footed at 30' range(Note that Telling Blow simply requires you to score a Critical, I think. If it requires a melee attack, then kindly ignore this post as it will be deleted forthwith. :smallsmile: ) is a good thing.