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Citizen Joe
2007-05-10, 09:24 AM
What are the rules regarding which spells can be made into potions? I know that they have to be level 3 or lower. I know that they cannot be range: Personal. The drinker is the target, which implies targetted spells only. I also read in the SRD someplace that, when making magical items, the prerequisites can come from other people there during the fabrication process... does that mean a wizard could make a Cure Light Wounds potion if a cleric was there for that part of the process? Finally, what's the stipulation for oils vs. potions? inanimate vs. creature?

Foolosophy
2007-05-10, 09:32 AM
I think the rules are not even saying that you are able to create oils. The feat description talks about potions only. But then again the oils from the DMG probably didn't appear out of thin air and a "brew" oil feat is nowhere to be found.

Brew Potion is definetly house-rule/common sense territory seeing as the rules don't seem to be very concise (or i am unaware of some official clarification in book or html form)

Caelestion
2007-05-10, 09:43 AM
You drink potions and apply oils. The person supplying the feat has to pay at least 50% of the xp, but I believe if a cleric supplies the CLW and the wizard the Brew Potion feat (to make a CLW potion), then both split the xp between them.

For instance, you'd have a potion of CLW and an oil of see invisibility (applied to your eyes).

Citizen Joe
2007-05-10, 10:01 AM
So you could brew an Oil of Grease... which seems redundant. Or a pyrotechnics oil (picking fireworks or smoke during creation)?

Or to be ironic, Oil of Hold Portal...

Zherog
2007-05-10, 10:08 AM
You drink potions and apply oils. The person supplying the feat has to pay at least 50% of the xp, but I believe if a cleric supplies the CLW and the wizard the Brew Potion feat (to make a CLW potion), then both split the xp between them.

Can you point to where this is in the rules? Because I don't think the rules actually touch on sharing XP costs.

Tellah
2007-05-10, 10:15 AM
The person supplying the feat has to pay at least 50% of the xp, but I believe if a cleric supplies the CLW and the wizard the Brew Potion feat (to make a CLW potion), then both split the xp between them.

The Magic Item Compendium (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/107627200) has clarified this point; the person with the crafting feat must pay the experience cost in total. I don't have the book handy, but I believe the salient bit of text is in the first few paragraphs in the "Creating Magic Items" section.

I've always houseruled that the components of crafting can be supplied by anyone in any combination. As long as someone casts the spell(s), someone pays the experience, someone has the feat, and everyone spends a day/1000 gp, an item is made.

Citizen Joe
2007-05-10, 10:31 AM
OK I found the cooperative creation rules here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#magicItemDescriptions

Note that when cooperating like that, one person is designated the creator and he's the one that fronts the xp. I wonder now if that rule could be bent to the point that someone not actually needed could be brought in and designated as creator, just so that the wizard doesn't have to front all the xp for the group.

Zherog
2007-05-10, 10:34 AM
I have a house rule that allows any willing creature to contribute any amount of XP to item creation. If you contribute to the XP cost, you must be present for the entire item crafting process.

Ikkitosen
2007-05-10, 11:20 AM
I have a house rule that allows any willing creature to contribute any amount of XP to item creation. If you contribute to the XP cost, you must be present for the entire item crafting process.

Good rule - the caster has already bought the feat, which is obviously useless in combat, but to fall XP behind for crafting for someone else adds to the drawback.

TheElfLord
2007-05-10, 11:57 AM
I think the rules are not even saying that you are able to create oils. The feat description talks about potions only. But then again the oils from the DMG probably didn't appear out of thin air and a "brew" oil feat is nowhere to be found.

Brew Potion is definetly house-rule/common sense territory seeing as the rules don't seem to be very concise (or i am unaware of some official clarification in book or html form)

I believe oils fall under the catagory of wonderous items, and use that feat.

Zherog
2007-05-10, 11:58 AM
Oils are "potions" that target objects. For example, you can make an oil of magic weapon.

rawling
2007-05-10, 12:11 PM
Can you have a "Potion of Fireball", or the like?

Zherog
2007-05-10, 12:19 PM
No. Potions can only be made from spells that have a target (other than personal range). Fireball has an area of effect, not a target.

That said, you certainly could make a wondrous item that was a liquid in a jar that exploded into a fireball when the jar shattered. For an example, take a look at the necklace of fireballs - all you're really doing with the "potion" version is changing what it looks like.

rawling
2007-05-10, 12:36 PM
"Potion of Magic Missile", then?
:smallamused:

Attilargh
2007-05-10, 12:41 PM
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect —the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
I am not sure if you can cast Magic Missile at yourself, but it'd be a rather amusing way to kill someone. "Here, drink this!" *splode*

Zherog
2007-05-10, 12:48 PM
"Potion of Magic Missile", then?
:smallamused:

As odd as it sounds, I do believe magic missile is a valid spell for a potion.


You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures.

Magic missile does in fact have a "target" entry, and is 3rd level or less.


A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute.

Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect —the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).

The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target.

Nothing there seems to make magic missile an invalid spell (though we do find some info about oils here, for those looking to see rules on that).

So yeah - that seems like a valid spell for a potion, oddly enough. I think the next time I DM, I might make a few and have the label say "healing potion." :D

henebry
2007-05-10, 01:30 PM
re: potion of magic missile,

given that magic missile's main claim to fame is that it never misses, putting it in potion form it isn't in the least overpowered. You'd do better damage with a Cause Light Wounds potion, assuming that both were created by 1st level casters.

Townopolis
2007-05-10, 01:36 PM
Oh, the horror. I'm definitely going to start populating wizards' potion cabinets with potions of hold person, fear, and the like.

Evil

rawling
2007-05-10, 01:41 PM
I thought somewhere I read one could take a tiny sip of a potion to get an idea of its effect (which would quickly become SOP, I guess) but all I found in the SRD was

Identifying Potions
In addition to the standard methods of identification, PCs can sample from each container they find to attempt to determine the nature of the liquid inside. An experienced character learns to identify potions by memory—for example, the last time she tasted a liquid that reminded her of almonds, it turned out to be a potion of cure moderate wounds.

Isomenes
2007-05-10, 01:47 PM
I thought somewhere I read one could take a tiny sip of a potion to get an idea of its effect (which would quickly become SOP, I guess) but all I found in the SRD was

From the Spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm) skill table:

DC 25: Identify a potion. Requires 1 minute. No retry.

Citizen Joe
2007-05-10, 02:41 PM
Most of the attack spells could be made into potions, but the target of the potion is always the drinker. So, if for some reason you needed to shock yourself, you could make/drink a potion of shocking grasp. There exist options for administering potions/oils to unconscious/willing subjects, but no aggressive use of potions. I think however Artificers have an ability like that (infusions?), so maybe some rules about applying oils to people might be appropriate. I think you can throw acid and oil at people/things, no logical reason why it can't be a magical oil.

Still, potions and oils are the most expensive way of producing a magic result. The only benefit is that anyone can use them.
50 gp multiplier per spell for potion
25 gp multiplier per spell for scrolls
15 gp multiplier per spell for wands

I should go through the spell lists to find all the 'valid' spells for the Brew Potion feat...

Neek
2007-05-10, 02:55 PM
re: potion of magic missile,

given that magic missile's main claim to fame is that it never misses, putting it in potion form it isn't in the least overpowered. You'd do better damage with a Cause Light Wounds potion, assuming that both were created by 1st level casters.

Ah, but you see, a potion of magic missile tastes like cotton candy, and the potion of Cause Light Wounds tastes like crushed ants with a hint of peppermint. You can see which is the obvious choice for suicide.

Also, I checked the DMG, 3.0 and 3.5, plus the SRD, they all list oils under the subset of potions and require the Brew Potions feat to manufacture. I felt like stating that in case anyone wanted any hard proof.

Cruiser1
2007-05-10, 03:34 PM
I have a house rule that allows any willing creature to contribute any amount of XP to item creation. If you contribute to the XP cost, you must be present for the entire item crafting process.This doesn't have to be a house rule. It's in the Player's Handbook II: Clerics and Druids have access to the "Transference" spell (and arcane casters such as Wizards can learn it) so the crafter doesn't have to sacrifice their own XP to make items for everyone. For details see: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a

Citizen Joe
2007-05-10, 04:01 PM
Great, we go from free xp swap out to either a spell, magic item, or feat... Well I guess the transferrence bit does allow for partial xp contributions... So, going by RAW, one person could be designated the creator and spend all the xp, or you could share it by using one of those transferrence methods...

Zherog
2007-05-10, 04:12 PM
This doesn't have to be a house rule. It's in the Player's Handbook II: Clerics and Druids have access to the "Transference" spell (and arcane casters such as Wizards can learn it) so the crafter doesn't have to sacrifice their own XP to make items for everyone. For details see: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060526a

A) My houserule has been around since at least 2001, and it might even go back to 2000 when 3.0 first released. Well before PHB2.

B) My version is still preferable.

For example:


Rule #3: Lastly, a creature can only transfer XP toward creating a magic item with which they are proficient (regarding armors, shields, and weapons), capable of activating (in the case of wands, and other spell trigger items[1]), or capable of using (if restricted by ability score, alignment, class feature, or race [1]).

[1] A creature can attempt to emulate these qualities with a Use Magic Device check in order to transfer XP.

I have no such rule. For example, it's a regular occurance in one of my games for everybody in the party to pay XP and gold costs for wands of cure light wounds.

*shrug* I'll stick to my method...

Citizen Joe
2007-05-11, 11:36 PM
OK, next part of the question regards the gold expenditure for materials. Surely, gold coins aren't just melted down, the brewer has to actually go shopping for the appropriate ingredients. The ingredients have to be fresh, which means the supplier needs to be constantly making, or making the incredients on as special order items. So the question becomes how long does the supplier need to make the incredients for the brewer.

So lets assume we've got a Master Alchemist producing ingredients, level 5 expert, 8 ranks craft (alchemy), Skill focus: Craft (alchemy), +2 from intelligence, full lab +2, for a total of +15 in craft...

On a successful check, you make (craft result) X (craft DC) sp worth of progress in a week. When you reach the specific amount for an item's value, you're done. Acid has a DC of 15, which should be in the right neighborhood for alchemical supplies. So on the average, the alchemist will be getting about 26 on his rolls... that's about 390 sp (or 39 gp) worth of ingredients in a week. So for a typical level 3 spell potion, it would take about two months to produce enough ingredients... that doesn't seem very fresh.

Now lets add a couple apprentices... maybe +10 in craft... They can contribute another 30 gp per week each, so master plus 2 apprentices could yield about 100 gp worth of of ingredients per week, or just under one month to gather enough for a level 3 potion.

I guess there's a couple of questions then... what is 'Fresh'? Are all the ingredients alchemical? Are some of the materials 'durable', i.e. not rotting, like vials or beakers, paper, fuel for burners, etc. If so what's the proportion? How common are these materials?

TomTheRat
2007-05-11, 11:50 PM
I have a house rule that allows any willing creature to contribute any amount of XP to item creation. If you contribute to the XP cost, you must be present for the entire item crafting process.

lolCharm Person... murder

Tellah
2007-05-12, 12:03 AM
OK, next part of the question regards the gold expenditure for materials. Surely, gold coins aren't just melted down, the brewer has to actually go shopping for the appropriate ingredients. The ingredients have to be fresh, which means the supplier needs to be constantly making, or making the incredients on as special order items. So the question becomes how long does the supplier need to make the incredients for the brewer.

So lets assume we've got a Master Alchemist producing ingredients, level 5 expert, 8 ranks craft (alchemy), Skill focus: Craft (alchemy), +2 from intelligence, full lab +2, for a total of +15 in craft...

On a successful check, you make (craft result) X (craft DC) sp worth of progress in a week. When you reach the specific amount for an item's value, you're done. Acid has a DC of 15, which should be in the right neighborhood for alchemical supplies. So on the average, the alchemist will be getting about 26 on his rolls... that's about 390 sp (or 39 gp) worth of ingredients in a week. So for a typical level 3 spell potion, it would take about two months to produce enough ingredients... that doesn't seem very fresh.

Now lets add a couple apprentices... maybe +10 in craft... They can contribute another 30 gp per week each, so master plus 2 apprentices could yield about 100 gp worth of of ingredients per week, or just under one month to gather enough for a level 3 potion.

I guess there's a couple of questions then... what is 'Fresh'? Are all the ingredients alchemical? Are some of the materials 'durable', i.e. not rotting, like vials or beakers, paper, fuel for burners, etc. If so what's the proportion? How common are these materials?

All magic items are made from moonbeams, dreams, kitten smiles, and angel whispers. They are measured in rods per furlong.

Which is to say that this is an area of the rules that's not worth worrying about, because the game designers certainly didn't.

Erk
2007-05-12, 02:39 AM
Out of sheer whimsy, has anyone ever seen a list of potion smells, colours, and flavours by spell? If not, does anyone want to help me make one? It would be fun to have a little jotted entry in my PHB for what potions look, taste, and smell like in my campaign. Adds "flavour" to the campaign (t'hyuk)

Dhavaer
2007-05-12, 03:40 AM
My Cure potions were almond flavoured. I don't think I ever actually specified a colour, though.

Citizen Joe
2007-05-12, 06:45 AM
I would have thought cure potions would taste like chicken soup.:smallbiggrin:

Stephen_E
2007-05-12, 07:33 AM
I was thinking a nasty minded Wizard could stock his 1st aid kit with Cure Crits and Cure Moderates, but all the Cure Mods are really Empowered, Twinned Magic Missile potions in Flask/Vials that are Wonderous items that create the illusion that their contents are potions of Cure Moderate, and that anyone drinking them has the illusion of been healed by a Cure Moderate cast on them.

Party member "Jake" is badly wounded. He either takes, or is given the "Cure Moderate Potion". He appears to heal and then gets hit by a Empowered Twinned Magic Missile, otherwise known as 8? Empowered Magic Missiles. "Heads up everyone. There's still a goddamn wizard out there and he just got Jake."

With a bit of work on the DM's part you might get the party to take several of these. As a party you could arrange to sell them to someone you're going to attack. You attack. The enemy is damaged. They take, or have someone adminster a potion to them while they're beating you back. Oops! Take another potion. More "Oops!"

Stephen

Citizen Joe
2007-05-12, 08:07 AM
Don't forget that you're limited to level 3 spells... empowering alone brings magic missile up to level 3... I'm not sure what twinning does, but it seems like it would be beyond the capacity of a potion. Maybe just a shocking grasp potion?

In any case, that becomes a very expensive trap.

Erk
2007-05-12, 09:17 AM
I've never understood the temptation to stab one's party members in the back. Maybe I just, you know, play with my friends or something silly like that. I recall a DM who gave his players things like items that would not only kill other players (PCs only, not NPCs) with fantastic ease, but would permanently affect any characters that the player created after his first died (assuming he actually wanted to make another character, which I certainly didn't). Weeeee.

Also seems rather elabourate for small returns on a trap against enemies, but it would still be cute just for the extremely elabourate setup and payoff.

Citizen Joe
2007-05-12, 09:48 AM
There's a bit of metagaming involved with that. There is an assumption that the other players won't kick you out just because your character is a jerk, because you're all there for some fun. The backstabber should get called out for that activity. While the characters could remain friends, remember that the adventuring part is a job, a dangerous job. Pranks after work during downtime or parties are ok, but you don't mess around on the job. Trust is vital in an adventuring group and if you backstab someone, don't expect to be invited to the next adventure.

Jasdoif
2007-05-12, 03:17 PM
Out of sheer whimsy, has anyone ever seen a list of potion smells, colours, and flavours by spell? If not, does anyone want to help me make one? It would be fun to have a little jotted entry in my PHB for what potions look, taste, and smell like in my campaign. Adds "flavour" to the campaign (t'hyuk)I've never seen one for D&D, no. In case it's any inspiration I'm going to send over a link to a potion listing for Alternate Reality (http://home.flash.net/~rayearle/Afiles/AltrReal_Potions.html).

Stephen_E
2007-05-12, 04:21 PM
Re: Potion limits.
Magic Missile is a 1st lev spell. If you use Heighten spell on it you increase the spell lev. All other Metamagic feats merely increase the caster lev slot required to cast it, not the level of the spell. So unless there is a FAQ saying otherwise you can use a 9th lev spell slot to place a 1-3rd lev spell in a potion. It's more expensive, but aside from that, go for it.

Re: beating on your party.
The suggestion wasn't that a PC do this to screw with his own party. It was for a NPC Wizard to have in his 1st aid pack so that if he got killed, he'd get revenge on his killers if they stole his gear (or just on any thieves who nicked his stuff). The other suggestion was for PC's to use it on a NPC party/BBEG. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm no fan of inter-party feuds.

Stephen

Jasdoif
2007-05-12, 04:41 PM
Re: Potion limits.
Magic Missile is a 1st lev spell. If you use Heighten spell on it you increase the spell lev. All other Metamagic feats merely increase the caster lev slot required to cast it, not the level of the spell. So unless there is a FAQ saying otherwise you can use a 9th lev spell slot to place a 1-3rd lev spell in a potion. It's more expensive, but aside from that, go for it.Well, the SRD has this:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#magicItemsandMetamagicSpells

With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.Emphasis mine.

Citizen Joe
2007-05-12, 04:43 PM
Re: Potion limits.
Magic Missile is a 1st lev spell. If you use Heighten spell on it you increase the spell lev. All other Metamagic feats merely increase the caster lev slot required to cast it, not the level of the spell.

:smallconfused: I thought that was the same thing...


So unless there is a FAQ saying otherwise you can use a 9th lev spell slot to place a 1-3rd lev spell in a potion. It's more expensive, but aside from that, go for it.

Unless there's a FAQ saying that you can use metamagic feats on potions... :smalltongue:


Re: beating on your party.
The suggestion wasn't that a PC do this to screw with his own party. It was for a NPC Wizard to have in his 1st aid pack so that if he got killed, he'd get revenge on his killers if they stole his gear (or just on any thieves who nicked his stuff). The other suggestion was for PC's to use it on a NPC party/BBEG. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm no fan of inter-party feuds.
Stephen
I have yet to find a wizard who focuses more on revenge than actually staying alive. What may be more likely is improperly labelled vials. Perhaps using prelabelled vials from used potions on potions he made himself. Then using Arcane mark (invisible) to properly label them so he knows what they are despite the label on the vial/flask. This makes for a more logical reason over some sort of vindictive spirit.

Stephen_E
2007-05-12, 05:49 PM
Well, the SRD has this:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#magicItemsandMetamagicSpells
Emphasis mine.

Thanks Jasdoif. Point noted.
Interestingly enough you can probaly still do it bu using a metamagic Rod since doing so doesn't increase the spell slot level or spell lev in any way. Thus you make a potion with a empowered Magic Missile (lev 2) and a Twinned spell Metamagic rod (+0).

Yes, one can argue that I'm bending the spirit of the rules, but then they're doing that themselves when they say metamagic doesn't increase the level of a spell, but it does when you count the level limits of magic items. I'm just bending them the other way. :smallbiggrin:

Stephen

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-12, 06:02 PM
Nope. Metamagic Rods and sudden metamagic are treated as the regular feat when used in item crafting (so +4 for maximize).

Zherog
2007-05-12, 07:15 PM
lolCharm Person... murder

That wouldn't qualify as "willing" in my campaigns - you used magic to persuade the creature to donate the XP.

Citizen Joe
2007-05-12, 08:31 PM
Actually, the way charm person works now, it really doesn't do anything to player characters. It only improves your feelings towards someone, but PC's aren't governed by their 'feelings'.

Stephen_E
2007-05-12, 09:53 PM
Nope. Metamagic Rods and sudden metamagic are treated as the regular feat when used in item crafting (so +4 for maximize).

Can you point me where it says that.

Thanks
Stephen

Emperor Tippy
2007-05-12, 10:41 PM
Complete Arcane in the feats section where they introduce sudden metamagic.

Jasdoif
2007-05-12, 11:42 PM
The Sudden Metamagic question is also covered in the FAQ.
Can sudden metamagic feats (from Complete Arcane) be used to scribe scrolls or craft wands that include the metamagic effect? If so, how would you calculate the cost (since sudden metamagic feats don’t alter the level of the spell)?

You can use a sudden metamagic feat in item creation; the cost to create the item would be just as if you were using the regular metamagic feat. For instance, using your Sudden Widen feat to create a scroll of widened fireball would cost as much as a scroll of a 6th-level spell (which is what a widened fireball is). The act of creating the scroll or wand would expend your daily use of Sudden Widen (since the act of creation triggers the spell, making it unavailable for casting).