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goodyarn
2015-08-25, 10:49 AM
Someone may have pointed this out already, but it just occurred to me that Odin's line before his vote is especially apt.

In this strip we see the worlds within worlds: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html

And here we have yarn winding yarn, with Odin on the scene:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html

Demonsul
2015-08-25, 12:17 PM
This post made me think, actually. Odin said he saw yarn winding yarn. Obviously, the fabric of creation is yarn, but so is the snarl. And now there's a world imprisoned within the world, where the snarl was imprisoned. I may be stating the obvious here, and I may also be completely wrong, but it looks to me like the new world was made (wound) by the snarl itself.

This was an odd realization to register and de-lurk for.

goodyarn
2015-08-25, 01:18 PM
This post made me think, actually. Odin said he saw yarn winding yarn. Obviously, the fabric of creation is yarn, but so is the snarl. And now there's a world imprisoned within the world, where the snarl was imprisoned. I may be stating the obvious here, and I may also be completely wrong, but it looks to me like the new world was made (wound) by the snarl itself.

This was an odd realization to register and de-lurk for.

I've been thinking about this too. "The Fabric of the World" is what strip #273 calls it. Worlds which ARE made of yarn. And so maybe the Snarl made the world. Or the creation of the Snarl also made that world. Or that world IS the Snarl. Or something.

I've also been thinking about how that same strip pretty much says that it's the fault of the gods, collectively, that the Snarl even exists. They created it by fighting over the yarn. Sure, when creation is at stake, who cares whose fault it is? But if even Roy is having doubts that the quest is what we thought it was, then it's worth taking a look at how we got here.

Tom Lehmann
2015-08-25, 08:38 PM
Beyond the references to earlier strips (and possibly a reference to the Norns in Norse mythology), I've wondered about Odin's phrase in more concrete terms.

A practical problem for prison escapes by tunneling is where does one put the dirt? Guards tend to notice huge mounds of dirt showing up in prison barracks...

So, here's the Snarl -- imprisoned within the threads of reality that make up the prime material plane -- picking away, scraping at them, trying to escape. Say, the Snarl starts loosening a thread here, a thread there. Where does the Snarl put those threads? Does he "wind" them up into a ball, inadvertently ordering them, slowly creating a "world within a world"? In so doing, does this slowly change the Snarl's nature, from a creature of pure destructiveness into one capable of creation?

Does the Snarl now want to create more, perhaps, life to populate this empty world, but does not know how? When psionically contacted by another intelligent living being, does the Snarl react by rushing towards her, eager for contact and instruction, while still capable of destruction?

Are many of the gods "fighting the last war", instead of realizing that the Snarl has been changed by its experiences in prison? Is Odin's foresight seeing other possibilities?

Bad Wolf
2015-08-26, 01:25 AM
Beyond the references to earlier strips (and possibly a reference to the Norns in Norse mythology), I've wondered about Odin's phrase in more concrete terms.

A practical problem for prison escapes by tunneling is where does one put the dirt? Guards tend to notice huge mounds of dirt showing up in prison barracks...

So, here's the Snarl -- imprisoned within the threads of reality that make up the prime material plane -- picking away, scraping at them, trying to escape. Say, the Snarl starts loosening a thread here, a thread there. Where does the Snarl put those threads? Does he "wind" them up into a ball, inadvertently ordering them, slowly creating a "world within a world"? In so doing, does this slowly change the Snarl's nature, from a creature of pure destructiveness into one capable of creation?

Does the Snarl now want to create more, perhaps, life to populate this empty world, but does not know how? When psionically contacted by another intelligent living being, does the Snarl react by rushing towards her, eager for contact and instruction, while still capable of destruction?

Are many of the gods "fighting the last war", instead of realizing that the Snarl has been changed by its experiences in prison? Is Odin's foresight seeing other possibilities?

Well the Snarl was born out of conflict and anger, so its very unlikely that it would change its nature. But its always possible. I always viewed the WwtW (world within the world) as being populated by all the souls of the people that the Snarl 'destroyed'.

theasl
2015-08-26, 01:34 AM
Well the Snarl was born out of conflict and anger, so its very unlikely that it would change its nature. But its always possible. I always viewed the WwtW (world within the world) as being populated by all the souls of the people that the Snarl 'destroyed'.

Remember that Laurin didn't find any signs of life on the planet...not sure if that would fit well with that description.

Bad Wolf
2015-08-26, 01:49 AM
Remember that Laurin didn't find any signs of life on the planet...not sure if that would fit well with that description.

She didn't find any signs of life in the middle of the ocean. I looked through the SRD, and she may have been using either Touchsight or Read Thoughts, both of which have a 60 ft range. Though Touchsight is augmentable, but it seemed like she didn't have much power points left. Not sure about the abundance of sea life in square feet, but its possible.

Olinser
2015-08-26, 01:50 AM
Remember that Laurin didn't find any signs of life on the planet...not sure if that would fit well with that description.

Not just no signs of life.

No signs of life in an area that should be TEEMING with life. We're not talking about a desert here. Any ocean has an absolutely absurd amount of life in any cross section of it. For there to be nothing there at all is a very bad sign.

sawdichtel
2015-08-26, 04:17 AM
Well the Snarl was born out of conflict and anger...

We don't know that. That's what the Order has been told, but even Roy has openly questioned how reliable, or complete, the Snarl story is. After all, it's all ultimately hearsay.

Kantaki
2015-08-26, 12:01 PM
Not just no signs of life.

No signs of life in an area that should be TEEMING with life. We're not talking about a desert here. Any ocean has an absolutely absurd amount of life in any cross section of it. For there to be nothing there at all is a very bad sign.

Eh, considering how often the scanner-thingys Star Trek gave the Information "no lifesigns" when pointed at a worldspanning rainforest it could just be a sign that Laurin's ability doesn't work right. I mean we know from the fact that the continents of the rift-world appeared green that there should be at least plantlife.
And depending how she scans the rift it could be possible that the local life just doesn't show up on Laurin's "radar".

Not that I think that is likely, the possibility that the Snarl, should it be the one who shaped this world, just hasn't created (non-plant) life (yet).

Bundin
2015-08-26, 03:19 PM
My mind immediately jumped to 'wheels within wheels' and decided that Redcloak would make a decent Harkonnen...

Olinser
2015-08-26, 07:48 PM
Eh, considering how often the scanner-thingys Star Trek gave the Information "no lifesigns" when pointed at a worldspanning rainforest it could just be a sign that Laurin's ability doesn't work right. I mean we know from the fact that the continents of the rift-world appeared green that there should be at least plantlife.
And depending how she scans the rift it could be possible that the local life just doesn't show up on Laurin's "radar".

Not that I think that is likely, the possibility that the Snarl, should it be the one who shaped this world, just hasn't created (non-plant) life (yet).

Laurin explicitly said that she didn't sense any fish, so she WAS looking for them specifically.

The Star Trek comparison is nonsensical - this is a D&D based world.

Kantaki
2015-08-27, 06:39 AM
Laurin explicitly said that she didn't sense any fish, so she WAS looking for them specifically.

The Star Trek comparison is nonsensical - this is a D&D based world.

All Laurin sensing no fish tells us is that there are no fish in range. It is unlikely but not impossible that there are no fish in this area because the Snarl is.

And I know my comparison wasn't exactly the most fitting one. It was just the first one that came to my mind regarding unreliable scanning abilities.

Lexible
2015-08-27, 08:12 PM
And here we have yarn winding yarn, with Odin on the scene:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html

Another meaning of "yarn" is "tale"... so "yarn winding yarn" may reference stories or narratives built out of other stories or narratives. For example, out of the story of Drawmij's Instant Summons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drawmij#Creative_origins)' origins, came the spell of the same name used in published rules by untold AD&D players, including one Rich Burlew, and atop some of those stories was spun a yarn about another meaning of Drawmij''s Instant Summons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0678.html) in Order of the Stick.

So, what specific meaning of yarn was Odin referencing?

Bulldog Psion
2015-08-27, 09:54 PM
The combination of "world within worlds" with "yarn winding yarn" really makes me think that the "yarn" part refers to the Snarl using the threads of reality for creation, rather than just being destructive.

It's a lot more satisfying, IMO, than "yarn" being used to mean stories.

Which is a better interpretation: "I see worlds within worlds, and the Snarl weaving the threads of reality"

or...

"I see worlds within worlds, and a story winding a story."

The first is almost poetic, in a slightly amusing way; the second is pretty dull. Also, the first is topical, while the second is so generic as to be almost pointless. Which is why I greatly prefer #1 until proven otherwise.

Lexible
2015-08-28, 01:44 AM
The first is almost poetic, in a slightly amusing way; the second is pretty dull. Also, the first is topical, while the second is so generic as to be almost pointless. Which is why I greatly prefer #1 until proven otherwise.

And if the specific denotation of yarn is "lie" as in "spinning a yarn" as in lies built on lies, and Maybe we haven't been told everything about the rifts?

I find that approach to be terrifically satisfying. I don't quite know what Rich is angling at with "yarn winding yarn," but I do know Rich is good with surprising twists of meaning.

Ghost Nappa
2015-08-28, 05:35 PM
The Snarl is a complicated mish-mash of the various Gods attempting to out-create each other.

Perhaps the Snarl is a sort of Frankenstein's Monster attempting to create stories, worlds, people and life out of frustration, confusion, depression or necessity. "Yarn winding yarn" might refer to how the Snarl first appeared: as a sort of stringy colored being like a spaghetti monster with a face; but also what it's doing. It was born from the various gods trying to create, and it may have eventually set out to just that.


Perhaps the Snarl shares the temperaments of the Gods at any point in time. When they were fighting for control, the Snarl soon after was fighting them too. But they've been ruling, guiding, and leading the people for awhile now, so maybe the Snarl is trying to do that too.

It's an epic-level Mimic made out of divine string.

FallenFallcrest
2015-08-29, 11:02 AM
I was discussing this out the day the comic releasing, here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?435584-Odin-provided-new-evidence-on-the-nature-of-the-Snarl for more fodder for discussion.

Not nagging you, thanks for bringing it up again and having more to say, I am just confused as to why barely anyone responded when I posted...

So yeah, I agree that this is huge information and practically confirmation of the previously poorly founded theory that the Snarl was creating the world inside the rifts. (I would recommend reading the topic that I linked to, there is a lot of good information in those couple posts. Maybe a mod could merge the two?)

goodyarn
2015-08-29, 12:31 PM
I was discussing this out the day the comic releasing, here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?435584-Odin-provided-new-evidence-on-the-nature-of-the-Snarl for more fodder for discussion.

Not nagging you, thanks for bringing it up again and having more to say, I am just confused as to why barely anyone responded when I posted...

Cool thread. Slightly fewer replies but slightly more views, no? Anyway, I don't mind merging the two threads; I think they go together.


So yeah, I agree that this is huge information and practically confirmation of the previously poorly founded theory that the Snarl was creating the world inside the rifts.

Here's a slightly different interpretation: "Yarn winding yarn" also is how you make a ball of yarn from a single long strand, which would imply that the yarn winding and the yarn being wound are not two different things, but continuations of the same thing. The world is not a distinct creation of the Snarl. It is part of the Snarl. And we could keep going and say that the Snarl is made from the same yarn as our world.