Who watches the watchmen / With great power comes... / When you gaze into the Abyss.

[Jowgen]

Got a bit of a moral/roleplaying conundrum that I would like to pose to the playground. There isn't really any point to this, I was just musing and though it would be interesting to get some opinions on it. The whole thing boils down to the question: What is the truly "good" thing to do when you can do anything?

Lets go with a hypothetical scenario:

You are a PC dedicated to the highest moral good (with no real deistic or Law-Chaos affiliation) and you find yourself possessing a disproportionate amount of power.

Your strikes can unerringly fell the mightiest of opponents and stop entire armies.

Your body and mind are nigh impervious to the deadliest of attacks both magical and mundane.

Your senses are so acute and varied in nature that they cut through all lies, deceptions and secrets.

And most of all, you can permanently bend the views/minds/hearts of all creatures as you desire.

Were you evil, there would be little to stop you from subjugating kingdom after kingdom and have them all thank you for it after (at least till some OP adventuring party comes along). Your only real limitation is that you can only be in one place at a time, but that's relative considering that you don't have to worry about aging.

But you are not evil. You are good. Like, really do-gooder good. The kind of good that defies the "see yourself become the villain" cliche that would have you go down some sort of slippery slope of moral greyness or succumb to temptation or whatever.

So what do you do with all that awesome power?

What is the truly "good" thing to do when you can do just about anything?

[JohnDaBarr]

Got a bit of a moral/roleplaying conundrum that I would like to pose to the playground. There isn't really any point to this, I was just musing and though it would be interesting to get some opinions on it. The whole thing boils down to the question: What is the truly "good" thing to do when you can do anything?

Lets go with a hypothetical scenario:

You are a PC dedicated to the highest moral good (with no real deistic or Law-Chaos affiliation) and you find yourself possessing a disproportionate amount of power.

Your strikes can unerringly fell the mightiest of opponents and stop entire armies.

Your body and mind are nigh impervious to the deadliest of attacks both magical and mundane.

Your senses are so acute and varied in nature that they cut through all lies, deceptions and secrets.

And most of all, you can permanently bend the views/minds/hearts of all creatures as you desire.

Were you evil, there would be little to stop you from subjugating kingdom after kingdom and have them all thank you for it after (at least till some OP adventuring party comes along). Your only real limitation is that you can only be in one place at a time, but that's relative considering that you don't have to worry about aging.

But you are not evil. You are good. Like, really do-gooder good. The kind of good that defies the "see yourself become the villain" cliche that would have you go down some sort of slippery slope of moral greyness or succumb to temptation or whatever.

So what do you do with all that awesome power?

What is the truly "good" thing to do when you can do just about anything?

Basically, as I see it, the less you interfere the better things are off, the reaction to your action will be smaller and the number of people that will be hurt by your actions is smaller. No matter what good you do someone some where will get the short end of the stick and the consequences can ripple into something extremely bad. The only thing you really need to preserve at that point is the balance of the life and death cycle.

[Blackhawk748]

Basically, as I see it, the less you interfere the better things are off, the reaction to your action will be smaller and the number of people that will be hurt by your actions is smaller. No matter what good you do someone some where will get the short end of the stick and the consequences can ripple into something extremely bad. The only thing you really need to preserve at that point is the balance of the life and death cycle.

But that True Neutral, not good. I still largely agree.

Personally at this point i would just keep Evil Outsiders off of the Material Plane, they dont belong there and you will always be doing something good. Unless a Malconvoker summoned them, but in that case you just dont need to do anything.

[Mechalich]

So the basic question is how to, given effectively limitless power, most effectively pursue the development of maximum goodness in the universe.

This is a common question in certain types of science-fiction, where the goods guys may possess technological power equivalent to godhood compared to underdeveloped civs.

Star Trek's prime directive is largely an admission that its way too hard and likely to have worse consequences so just police your own garden and leave everyone else alone.

This question is raised fairly explicitly in several of the Culture novels - especially Use of Weapons - the answer generally being, its really hard and you have to juggle a lot of complex possibilities to gradually nudge one civilization after another through a staged progression towards generally better goodness (which means becoming more like the Culture, mostly) but yes it can be done and we're actually expending a vast quantity of resources to quietly do so.

D&D's a little different. Evil outsiders are essentially little blobs of pure bad, and there's essentially nothing to be lost by destroying them and if possible simply making it impossible for them to even enter your world. Good outsiders, by contrast, truly are little paragons of incorruptible goodness, and you could perhaps summon a whole bunch and set them to rule over various civilizations in righteousness. Ultimately this basically means gradually converting your world into an appendage of the Upper Plane of your choice. This is basically the vision of the idealized good life that D&D offers.

[Honest Tiefling]

I assume this is happening in your typical DnD type universe. In which case, why not ask the guys with centuries of experience for help? You know, the gods. If you have so much power, why not drop on by their celestial realms for tea and cookies?

I mention this to both be cheeky, and to state that I prefer my good with a slice of humble pie. I find good righteous warriors who don't question their own choices once in a while at least tend to become evil or boring quite quickly. I don't mean angst over everything, either, just a bit of doubt and soul searching.

[Kantaki]

Preventing evil outsiders from entering the mortal world or stopping a equal force of evil from acting the best use for this amount of power seems to be giving it up. I think the temptation to use it to make other be good would be to big to resist it. And once you start walking that road you are little different from the evil you once opposed.

[Seclora]

I agree with the above, creatures of pure evil should be your first priority. Protect the innocent from the influence of an unrepentant evil. Don't close portals to the lower planes, watch them for intruders, track their activities, and strike when it's most effective rather than just quickly. Ruin their plans and they'll need to come up with new ones, close their doors and they'll make new ones.

Traditionally, this is the point at which you take on two apprentices, one of whom will invariably betray you. Do it anyways, trust that the good apprentice will follow in your footsteps and take your place. You are going to die eventually, somehow, and it's better if you plan for it now. By no means have children or start a relationship, they'll know your weaknesses and exploit them.

In the meantime, wander the world. Cure the sick, help the poor, use your super persuasion to guide wizards-in-training onto the right path and give young Halflings the chance to help rebuild Dwarven kingdoms. Take up riddles, speak exclusively in them. The best help you can give people is to teach them to help themselves; unless they can't, then you smite the baddies.

[Blackhawk748]

I agree with the above, creatures of pure evil should be your first priority. Protect the innocent from the influence of an unrepentant evil. Don't close portals to the lower planes, watch them for intruders, track their activities, and strike when it's most effective rather than just quickly. Ruin their plans and they'll need to come up with new ones, close their doors and they'll make new ones.

Traditionally, this is the point at which you take on two apprentices, one of whom will invariably betray you. Do it anyways, trust that the good apprentice will follow in your footsteps and take your place. You are going to die eventually, somehow, and it's better if you plan for it now. By no means have children or start a relationship, they'll know your weaknesses and exploit them.

In the meantime, wander the world. Cure the sick, help the poor, use your super persuasion to guide wizards-in-training onto the right path and give young Halflings the chance to help rebuild Dwarven kingdoms. Take up riddles, speak exclusively in them. The best help you can give people is to teach them to help themselves; unless they can't, then you smite the baddies.

So in short, be Gandalf?

[Seclora]

So in short, be Gandalf?

Or Dumbledore, Or Merlin, Or...Yeah, pretty much. You're the Greater Good, but not an actual deity, these are the characters you should be looking to.

If you can be Uncle Iroh, there are zero reasons to not be Uncle Iroh.

[Yogibear41]

This:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edCqF_NtpOQ

[FocusWolf413]

I think that if your hypothetical protagonist ever interfered, it would turn into a Villains by Necessity type situation very quickly. For those who didn't read the book, The forces of Good destroyed almost all evil and closed access from the Negative Energy Plane, so the PM Plane was turning into a positive energy plane and everyone was going to sublimate and be destroyed.
The right thing to do would be to not interfere, but the Good for the Good God thing to destroy/brainwash all evil. Also, while brainwashing someone might be Good, is it good?

[Bad Wolf]

Heal people, help people out, destroy evil outsiders, and eventually become a god so goodness is coded into your very being.

[Vogie]

This is very similar to the Lightbringer Series of novels - One of the Protagonists, the Prism, is basically this from the beginning. He can single-handedly win wars, trounce other casters, is martially adept, and is a genius in crafting. Because of this, he's largely a figurehead, ruling in name only, with a council of the seven provinces dealing with everything. He focuses on defeating the world-equivalent of outsiders, elementals and revenants.

And then everything goes horribly, horribly wrong.

It's a good series, check it out.

[Strigon]

I believe the best thing you could do is ignore the general populace (by which I mean, help if you see something going wrong, but don't spend all your time focusing on them). Instead of dealing with them, make sure those with power and influence over them are responsible, wise, and good-hearted. Use your senses to appoint these people as leaders. Then move on down to those who could corrupt the society from inside - your drug dealers, mobs, organized crime, and the like. You can't ever completely clean society, but by making sure the lawmakers are innocent, powerful, and wise, and removing organized crime, I think you'd come pretty close.
Just keep a strong economy to minimize unemployment, and watch big organizations carefully.

Edit:
Honestly, once you've done all that, just the knowledge that there is an immortal, just, and nigh-unstoppable being working to root out all evil should keep many people from taking advantage of others.

[WeepyDevil]

I would take a nap, but set up a bunch of trials so that people can awaken me when there is need.

[Kantaki]

I believe the best thing you could do is ignore the general populace (by which I mean, help if you see something going wrong, but don't spend all your time focusing on them). Instead of dealing with them, make sure those with power and influence over them are responsible, wise, and good-hearted. Use your senses to appoint these people as leaders. Then move on down to those who could corrupt the society from inside - your drug dealers, mobs, organized crime, and the like. You can't ever completely clean society, but by making sure the lawmakers are innocent, powerful, and wise, and removing organized crime, I think you'd come pretty close.
Just keep a strong economy to minimize unemployment, and watch big organizations carefully.

Edit:
Honestly, once you've done all that, just the knowledge that there is an immortal, just, and nigh-unstoppable being working to root out all evil should keep many people from taking advantage of others.

My problem with this approach is that it puts a greater emphasis on the lawfulness than on the goodness of the reformed society. While the result certainly wouldn't be evil I'm not sure how good it would be - especially if the immortal relies on fear to stop people from doing what he sees as wrong.

And I think evil people wouldn't be the only ones who oppose it. Lawful evil guys might even try to work with the system to reach their goals. No, I think this government would primary be opposed by those of chaotic alignment, by those that value freedom , free will and individuality over order and security.
I mean this would be a world where your position is decided by the judgement of a single person. That doesn't sound like a very free society. Another problem is that the system relies on the immortal staying good and since power corrupts that seems doubtful.

No, I still think that, if giving up those powers isn't a option, stopping greater, cosmic evil like denizens of the lower planes would be the better approach.
Of course the immortal should still keep a eye on the mortal world or ensure there is a way to call him in a time of need. Just in case there is some truely powerful evil overlord that stands unopposed in his plans to take over/destroy/whatever the world.

[Strigon]

Another problem is that the system relies on the immortal staying good and since power corrupts that seems doubtful.

The same could be said about any other answer to this question; I don't see your point.

And, it's not in any way a lawful-only society; this immortal simply makes sure the people in charge are the ones who are best suited, regardless of where they fall on the law/chaos axis. This removes corruption and exploitation from the top down; this seems to me to be good. Then he works on removing gangs, and other people who cause harm to people; also good.

You seem to think that, simply because it's done in a methodical way, the resulting society would heavily favour law, and only the lawful would thrive in such a society, which is simply not true. It would have no more of a lawful stance than any other civilization, and be entirely free of corruption. Chaotic individuals could certainly find a welcome home in this scenario, even as rulers. Again, the only deciding factor is how well they can make decisions, and whether they have pure intentions, both of which a chaotic person can certainly have.

And, as for lawful evil types working within the system to get their way? Either they would get caught quickly, because the character knows people's intentions, or they'd have to be so careful that they couldn't do anything that would really harm anyone else.

[Kantaki]

@Strigon: What do you think why my answer to the question is to give up this power?

And I really doubt the immortal could root out everyone who tries to play the system to their own end unless they can be everywhere at once. Sure, sooner or later the back sheep would be discovered but the profit might be worth the risk. And a lawful evil would find a way to make profit - either in material or in a immaterial sense.

One question: The guys who are assigned certain dutys by the immortal- can they refuse? If the answer is yes there is no problem. If not - and I count „the immortal could „convince” them using his powers” as a no - there would certainly be people who would oppose this new world no matter how much of a utopia it would be.

[Hrugner]

So I can do anything to their minds?

I'd grant that truth vision power to all living things in order to protect integrity at the cost of some chaos. I'd give all people the ability to move themselves out of situations they didn't like to promote freedom over law. I'd teach everyone how to live off the land and maintain the land so they could continue doing so providing an escape from culture as a whole while teaching them the lessons of the commons.

From there I suppose I'd watch and tend things as they progressed.

[Auron3991]

Simple, protect those within my sight. If there is no danger to those in my sight, then I just live my life. Might kick a particularly nasty demon out of the material plane every now and again, but I'm not obligated to do anything. Actually, probably better I don't do much. Don't want the "nice job breaking it hero" moment.

Remember, the only moral thing to do with absolute power is to make sure it doesn't exist or can't be used.

[TheifofZ]

If actual Omniscience and Omnipotence are off the table, and since we're assuming that this is the Superman situation, then they technically are.
(That is: Superman, who is merely capable of extreme physical acts, rather than Dr. Manhattan, who is literally capable of whatever he pleases. Like time travel, or mind control. Or nuclear fission.)

I think personally I'd play the villain. A massive threat that shows up occasionally to encourage humanity to cooperate, and also constantly forces any would-be heroes to grow in experience and capability... yeah. It's easy to be self-sacrificing, so if I were to be the all-powerful flying brick, might as well go all the way.
That removes the threats of humanity becoming reliant on me to fix all the issues, while also lets me do heroics in the shadows, anyway. And if worst comes to worst and I must be heroic in public, claim that whatever it is is simply a threat to my own plans.

But that's presuming that actual villainy is off the table.

[Jowgen]

I am loving all the responses to this. :smallbiggrin:

I do have 3 personal favorites though:

The Gandalf/Futurama-God type "steer & support world from back-seat approach" because flavor and low backlash risk.

The Kill-them-Fiends approach because of how straightforward and proactive it is (i.e none of this "oh, I am so burdened with responsibility, this power shouldn't exist" crap)

The "play the role of the villain" approach because I'm a huge code geass fan :smalltongue:

[TheifofZ]

I am loving all the responses to this. :smallbiggrin:

I do have 3 personal favorites though:

The Gandalf/Futurama-God type "steer & support world from back-seat approach" because flavor and low backlash risk.

The Kill-them-Fiends approach because of how straightforward and proactive it is (i.e none of this "oh, I am so burdened with responsibility, this power shouldn't exist" crap)

The "play the role of the villain" approach because I'm a huge code geass fan :smalltongue:

That played a part in it, certainly. That and I've always been a huge fan of the big ol' hammy villains that monologue the heck out of things, have delightful evil laughs, and in general firmly grasp the villain ball. I always root for them, too, as long as they have standards. If I can do all that without actually being the bad guy?
Heck yeah.

[noob]

You go to hell and convert all the evil exteriors to good.
Then save the remaining souls by casting some kind of mass resurrect to resurrect everybody(no problem with space since the planes are infinite) and make those people good.
And finally manage to make the good exterior to understand that heaven is an evil absorber of souls and to get them all out of their planes and resurrect all the good aligned souls then do something similar with the ultra infinitely super intensely evil exteriors (called neutral exteriors) and their planes.