Hideous Blow Warlock build challenge (cont)

[justiceforall]

Original discussion was here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?419234-Build-Challenge-Hideous-Blow-Warlock&highlight=hideous+blow

But its now more than 45 days old so started a new one to avoid enraging the mods.


So, have a proposed build, I wanted to make sure it worked the way I thought it did.

Elven Warlock 8/Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 5. Feats are, in order: Combat Casting, Iron Will, Flyby Attack, + other feats

Assuming I understand the rules correctly:

Elf martial weapon proficiencies qualify you for Suel Arcanamach. Suel Arcanamach can take Shield as its first spell, which then qualifies you for Abjurant Champion. You can then use Abjurant Champions caster progression to continue scaling Eldritch Blast and your Invocations.

You can't use Martial Arcanist for any super awesome tricks with getting a huge caster level on your Suel Arcanamach casting unless you are willing to give up an additional level of EB/Invoc scaling by putting a level of progression back into your Suel Arcanamach.

Result:

You are a 14th level character with +12 BAB, Eldritch Blast and Invocations as a 13th level warlock, a +9 AC shield spell twice per day (assuming 12 charisma), and can use Fell Flight to generate a Spring Attack of sorts where you fly past your target, hit them with your <insert weapon of choice here, probably longspear>, then continue moving past them to deny the target a full attack.


So questions:

1. did I get all that right?
2. is there a way you can do this without being an elf *without* giving up BAB or EB progression?
3. is there a better option than Suel Arcanamach that doesn't give up BAB or EB progression?
4. any other tweaks?


Please don't bother with the "but hideous blow sucks" routine, this thread assumes you *want* to build a character around it.

[Taveena]

For what it's worth Warlock qualifies for, and can take, the Precocious Apprentice feat to gain a second level spell slot. They don't, however, gain a casting method or a spell list for it, so it's kind of messy. Notably, though, the spell chosen only has to be from a SCHOOL you can cast, not necessarily a list...

... It's a very messy feat, but arguably, you can cast a 2nd level spell (which can be modified to level 1 with Sanctum Spell, thus qualifying you for Abjurant Champion) by making the DC 8 Caster Level check, assuming that this is a separate casting mechanism from standard methods. Even if the Warlock HAS to choose a spell from the non-existant Warlock list, there's some potential for confusion by choosing a Sanctified or Vile spell as the option, which do not have an associated spell list - however, if this is not treated as 'preparing a spell', then they 'cannot make use of them', which is a bit confusing - can you LEARN the spell and then be unable to cast it?

The Nosomatic Chirurgeon can arguably use Pestilential Touch to convert their at-will SLAs to true spellcasting (albeit of a single spell), but the wording makes it unclear as to whether it works with unlimited SLAs. Still, it's more likely to work than Precocious Apprentice, albeit it's standard Halfling exclusive.

The Magical Training feat gives you the ability to cast three Cantrips as a Wizard or Sorcerer 1. If you take Resistance, alongside the Sanctum Spell feat, you can now cast 3 different 1st level spells, one of which is Abjuration.

Outsiders (such as the +0 LA Neraph, and all the famous Planetouched) gain proficiency with all martial weapons.

It's somewhat roundabout, but a Warlock 7 with Dodge (and Iron Will from an Otyugh Hole) qualifies for Dragonslayer. One level of that grants all MWP and a point of full BAB. From there you can go into Abjurant Champion and/or Eldritch Knight without any issues.

Anyway. While this build is neat, and I REALLY do want to find a way to make Hideous Blow work, at the moment it seems like these tricks could also be pulled off by Eldritch Claws, which kinda hurts its uniqueness a bit. The two things Hideous Blow has going for it is getting double benefit from Power Attack and being able to accept Eldritch Essences. (Unfortunately, Glaive is rather better at making use of those essences. However, it cannot be power attacked with at all, due to being a Weaponlike Spell and thus a light weapon). Hellfire Warlock does, in fact, add damage to your Hideous Blows, so that should ideally be worked into the build.

The Power Attack method suffers a bit due to, as far as I know, being unable to charge with Hideous Blow. Hooo...
Basically, to make Hideous Blow a good option, you need to be specialist in dealing large bursts of damage in a hit-and-run style with nasty rider effects (incarnum blast, utterdark blast, etc). A standard Eldritch Blast warlock has better range, but lower damage. A Glaivelock is better at applying the debuffs, but can't move. A Clawlock has higher damage output, but can't move and can't apply riders. Focus on this niche and make it as useful as possible. You're not worried about iteratives, so you can power attack fairly hard. You're not forcing as many saves as a Glaivelock, though, so you want to invest more in Charisma.

It's hard, but there's a niche there, at least.

EDIT: Weird note, but Hideous Blow, as a Weaponlike Spell, could be ruled to be a Light weapon regardless of what weapon you're using. On the one hand, this doesn't make much sense in reality, but on the other - while this hurts your Power Attack avenues, it DOES let you finesse a Platinum Minotaur Greathammer, should you be so inclined. I don't think any DM would actually choose to rule it this way except out of spite, but there's a slight silver lining if that IS the kind of DM you're stuck with.

[justiceforall]

Good response.


Anyway. While this build is neat, and I REALLY do want to find a way to make Hideous Blow work, at the moment it seems like these tricks could also be pulled off by Eldritch Claws

In this case however you can't, because on the assumption this is a build challenge like Iron Chef/etc, you cannot use Dragon Magazine. Only the Eldritch Glaive (which you've also mentioned) is a valid comparison for purposes of this exercise.


For what it's worth Warlock qualifies for, and can take, the Precocious Apprentice feat to gain a second level spell slot. They don't, however, gain a casting method or a spell list for it, so it's kind of messy. Notably, though, the spell chosen only has to be from a SCHOOL you can cast, not necessarily a list...


I assumed from the wording that this wouldn't work. We can always check with the RAW thread. What I did investigate for this though was instead of using Suel Arcanamach, you could (maybe?) use this feat and a level of Duskblade instead to potentially qualify for additional prestige classes that could advance BAB and casting. It also makes the character work a lot better at low levels, but you lose Shield from Abjurant Champ later. I haven't had a look yet at what Prestige classes you *actually* qualify for by using this trick, but there you go. Once again I'd probably have to go to the RAW thread to see if this worked anyway since the wording on Precocious Apprentice is really odd.

Duskblade would also allow for non-elf race choices.


Outsiders (such as the +0 LA Neraph, and all the famous Planetouched) gain proficiency with all martial weapons.

Yeah Neraph is interesting. It reminds me of Chrono Trigger :). Is there a 3.5 version of Planetouched, or only 3.0? I had trouble searching for it.


The Power Attack method suffers a bit due to, as far as I know, being unable to charge with Hideous Blow. Hooo...

Correct you can't charge unless you can find some way to activate an SLA as part of a charge action. I guess you could try some trick with Quicken Spell Like Ability on the back of a charge? Seems rather elaborate though.

Yeah but you are generating the bulk of your damage through EB so power attack isn't as necessary.


EDIT: Weird note, but Hideous Blow, as a Weaponlike Spell, could be ruled to be a Light weapon regardless of what weapon you're using. On the one hand, this doesn't make much sense in reality, but on the other - while this hurts your Power Attack avenues, it DOES let you finesse a Platinum Minotaur Greathammer, should you be so inclined.

Not familiar with this one?


EDIT: Practiced Caster doesn't work for EB does it? It would only add caster level to it for purposes of overcoming spell resistance rather than scaling the damage?

[Taveena]

According to the Complete Arcane errata, Eldritch Blast scales with Caster Level rather than Class Level.
3.5e Planetouched are in the Monster Manual I. There's also an update for the two Planetouched in MMII, and there's another Planetouched from Fiend Folio.

Complete Arcane goes into the rules on using Weaponlike Spells with feats. "Touch Spells: Touch spells include any damage-dealing spells with a range of touch." Hideous Blow falls into this category. "Weapon Finesse: You can treat touch spells as light weapons and use your Dexterity modifier (instead
of your Strength modifier) on your touch attack rolls with such spells." So Hideous Blow, despite dealing the damage of ANY weapon, including two-handers, is finessable.

Regardless of whether or not Precocious Apprentice works, Magical Training + Sanctum Spell unambiguously does.

If Eldritch Claws are not an option, then yeah, Hideous Blow has a niche as POTENTIALLY being possible to Power Attack with. The line "You can treat touch spells as light weapons and use your Dexterity modifier (instead of your Strength modifier) on your touch attack rolls with such spells." may mean that Hideous Blow is only treated as a Light weapon for Weapon Finesse (like the Spiked Chain), and is thus possible to use Power Attack with.

Power Attack and Greater Mighty Wallop are the main ways to get more damage than a Glaivelock, but you're doing 17d6+weapon damage+2d6 per round, while they're likely doing 17d6 three times a round. (Assuming you entered Hellfire Warlock and have a Greater Fell Chasuble). A Greater Mighty Wallop'd Platinum Minotaur Greathammer does 8d8, so you need 83 extra damage from Strength and Power Attack to break even on damage while maintaining your higher mobility. Assuming a reasonable 16 starting strength, +16 Enhancement (UMD an item of Bite of the Werebear), +32 Size (UMD an item of Giant Size), +4 Morale (UMD Valiant Fury), and +4 Sacred (Holy Transformation), +5 levelup, and +5 Inherent, that's 80 strength, or +70 damage. And with +35 to hit from ability scores alone, you can probably afford to power attack a fair bit.

EDIT: If you're allowed to apply Giant Size BEFORE Greater Mighty Wallop, and use Colossal+ and larger weapons, then you can get up to Colossal+++++ Platinum Greathammer, which is 48d8. If not, a Platinum Fullblade deals 24d6 at Colossal.

[justiceforall]

According to the Complete Arcane errata, Eldritch Blast scales with Caster Level rather than Class Level.

Where?



Page 7: Eldritch Blast
Second paragraph of the Eldritch Blast ability
description:
Change “An eldritch blast is the equivalent of a spell
whose level is equal to one-half the warlock’s class
level (round down), with a minimum spell level of 1st
and a maximum of 9th when the warlock reaches 18th
level or higher” to “An eldritch blast is the equivalent
of a 1st-level spell. If you apply a blast shape or eldritch
essence invocation to your eldritch blast (see page 130),
your eldritch blast uses the level equivalent of the shape
or essence.”
Any other references to eldritch blast being something
other than the equivalent of a 1st-level spell should be
disregarded.
Any other references claiming that eldritch blast is not
an invocation should be disregarded.
A warlock can use eldritch blast at will.
Page 8: Invocations and Eldritch Blast
Change this section as follows:
Invocations and Eldritch Blast: Eldritch blast is an
invocation. Other invocations provide a warlock with
the ability to modify his eldritch blast or add new
eldritch attacks.


3.5e Planetouched are in the Monster Manual I. There's also an update for the two Planetouched in MMII, and there's another Planetouched from Fiend Folio.

They are +1 LA in 3.5? I thought you said there was a +0 LA version? If those were 3.0, they'd be superseded by the new one correct?


So Hideous Blow, despite dealing the damage of ANY weapon, including two-handers, is finessable.

But if this is a power attack build, wouldn't finessing be just making your character MAD?


EDIT:

Further query - would Quicken SLA work with hideous blow to give you an additional melee attack as a swift action?

[Snowbluff]

I think you should try mounted combat. :smalltongue:

[justiceforall]

Yeah I saw the mounted builds in the last thread. Unfortunately the idea of playing a small mounted character just doesn't fit with the way I prefer to have my characters (Sir Didimus from Labyrinth is hilarious/great, but not my thing).

[Taveena]

Sorry, you're right, I got Rich Baker's Warlock FAQ confused with the errata. If that's not official enough for you to use in your games, sorry for bringing it up.

The +0 LA version is the Lesser Planetouched from Player's Guide to Faerun, which changes the type of a Planetouched to Humanoid (Planetouched) - vulnerable to effects that target Outsiders AND Humanoids, and in exchange sets the ECL of the character to 0. This is fine for Tieflings, Aasimar, Mechanatrices, Chaonds, Zenythri, and all the others... messy and gamebreaking for Fey'ri. And Tanarruks. Don't apply Lesser Planetouched to Planetouched with more than +1 LA.

Quicken SLA indeed allows you to make an additional attack as a swift. It's worth noting as a point of comparison that Eldritch Glaive allows you to make a FULL attack as a swift, so it's not quite a niche they excel in relatively. (While it's not the intention of the thread, Quickened Hideous Blow with a Beast Strike Eldritch Claws Unarmed Strike deals 2x Eldritch Blast damage and 2x Eldritch Blast damage.)