Unarmed TWF Poison Fighter

[LordOfCain]

Wood Elf
Fighter 2
TWF, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Dagger)
Bluff (2/5), Intimidate (5), Craft (Weaponsmithing) (5)
Ranger 4
Track, Rapid Shot, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike), Animal Companion (Medium Viper)
Profession (Herbalist) (10), Knowledge (Nature) (6), Survival (6), Handle Animal (10)
Rogue 2
Sneak Attack + 1d6, Evasion, Trapfinding
Hide (8), Profession (Herbalist) (2), Move Silently (6)
Fighter 1
Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike)
Bluff (1/2), Profession (Herbalist) (1)
Rogue 1
Sneak Attack +2d6, Trap Sense +1
Profession (Herbalist) (1), Move Silently (2) Disguise 4, Bluff (2)
Assassin 1-10

I just want some reviews or ideas. MM, PHB, and DMG only. 3.5 Also, how could I use poison on an unarmed strike.

[NevinPL]

With only Core books, you should probably go into Assassin PRC, not Rogue - you get more "bang" from Death Attack, and better poison skills.

As for "how could I use poison on an unarmed strike":
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134358-Can-you-use-injury-based-poisons-with-unarmed-strikes
But with your limit on books, it will be hard.

If you\your DM could be persuaded, DotU has two very nice weapon enchantment for poisoners - Toxic (poison stay for the second attack), Virulent (second saving throw is made after half the normal time).

[LordOfCain]

I could use the rogue's skill points to qualify for assassin.

[Telonius]

Would other open gaming license materials be allowed? Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) can do this pretty easily with Claws of the Beast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheBeast.htm) and Prevenom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/prevenom.htm). (Note: the claws are natural attacks, not manufactured weapons).

[LordOfCain]

I already said I can only use the DMG, PHB, and MM.

[Telonius]

Just limited to that, it's going to be really tricky. Depending on how literal your DM is being with Assassin, you would still run the risk of poisoning yourself if you applied it to your unarmed weapons (since an unarmed weapon is not a "blade.") If he rules like that, your best bet would probably be to gain immunity to poison before you apply it. For a Ranger, Neutralize Poison is a 3rd level spell, so you're not going to be casting it personally until level 11; though you could get it in Wand form earlier. Otherwise you're getting it either through a class feature (which means either Druid9 or Monk11, probably not possible for you) or through a magic item like a Periapt of Proof Against Poison (which is pretty expensive at 27,000gp).

[Psyren]

I just want some reviews

Review: it's a terrible idea with only those sources available.


or ideas.

Don't even bother with ranger - your animal companion will be too stunted to be useful against anything.
Also, definitely don't bother fighting unarmed, especially since you appear to be focusing on daggers anyway.

[emeraldstreak]

Review: it's a terrible idea with only those sources available.

Seconded.

A much better unarmed "poison" combo: Tome of Battle (Unarmed Swordsage), Book of Exalted Deeds (Touch of Golden Ice), Races of the Dragon (Greater Mighty Wallop).

[LordOfCain]

Are there any ideas that are not simply saying that it is a bad idea without x sources???

[ComaVision]

Reading the build, I had no idea what you were trying to do. Either the build doesn't accomplish anything, or I'm missing something.


I'm pretty confident that I'm not missing anything.

[Vhaidara]

Are there any ideas that are not simply saying that it is a bad idea without x sources???

Unlikely, because it is.

Your animal companion is completely useless (it has what, +1 to hit and 15hp at level 6? and never improves?).

Profession (herbalist) doesn't do anything for you (poisons fall under Craft (Poison), or Craft (alchemy) at a penalty, IIRC).

Power Attack is almost worthless on a TWF build because it doesn't work at all with light weapons like the daggers you're using (You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#powerAttack)).

You took Rapid Shot for your Ranger Combat Style feat, even though the main draw of Ranger levels on a build like this would be not needing a 15 Dex (ranger bonus feats ignore Prereqs)

You don't have Weapon Finesse, which implies that your Str is higher than your Dex

You're using daggers as a primary weapon, while short swords and kukris are straight upgrades that you are proficient in.

You have an odd number of Fighter levels. What does Fighter 3 get you that Ranger 5 wouldn't?

And, as a last niggly technicality that you could be caught on, there is technically no way to apply poison safely to an unarmed strike in Core, since assassin only works when applying to a blade.

[marphod]

Wood Elf
Fighter 2
TWF, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Dagger)
Bluff (2/5), Intimidate (5), Craft (Weaponsmithing) (5)
Ranger 4
Track, Rapid Shot, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike), Animal Companion (Medium Viper)
Profession (Herbalist) (10), Knowledge (Nature) (6), Survival (6), Handle Animal (10)
Rogue 2
Sneak Attack + 1d6, Evasion, Trapfinding
Hide (8), Profession (Herbalist) (2), Move Silently (6)
Fighter 1
Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike)
Bluff (1/2), Profession (Herbalist) (1)
Rogue 1
Sneak Attack +2d6, Trap Sense +1
Profession (Herbalist) (1), Move Silently (2) Disguise 4, Bluff (2)
Assassin 1-10

I just want some reviews or ideas. MM, PHB, and DMG only. 3.5 Also, how could I use poison on an unarmed strike.


Ideas? Unless you can get other sources, you're not going to like the advice you get.

What exactly is your goal? An assassin, obviously, but anything other than that?


This isn't an unarmed combatant. This isn't a poison specialist (it can't even make poisons).

Improved Critical(unarmed) is terrible. Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed) is only marginally better.


This works out to Fighter 3/Ranger 4/Rogue 3/Assassin 10. Which is not a great build.

If you're doing this to avoid XP penalties, the timing doesn't work. If you don't have XP penalties to worry about, it isn't a great idea.

All Fighter 3 gets you is +1 Will/Reflex and +1 BAB. No class features, nothing. You're better off with a different level there. Rogue 4 gets you Uncanny Dodge, +1 BAB and +1 Reflex. Ranger 5 gets you the BAB and a second Favored Enemy (probably not worth it). You're better off with a level of Barbarian, or a cleric dip, or pretty much anything else.

---

Consider Ranger 6/Rogue 3/Fighter 1/Assassin 10


Ranger 6 gets you Track, Wild Empathy, 2 Favored Enemies, 2 combat style feats, an Animal Companion (something that produces poison, and that you leave at home), and Endurance. You also get some minimal spellcasting. 36+6*int skill points. (plus 18+3*int if you take this as your first level class). +5/+5/+2 Saves and +6 BAB.

Rogue 3 gets you 2 dice sneak attack, evasion, trapfinding and trapsense +1. 24+3*int skill points. (plus 24+3*int if you take this as your first level class). +1/+3/+1 Saves and +2 BAB.

Fighter gets you 1 feat, 2+int skill points, +1 BAB, and +2/+0/+0 saves.

You get the same number of feats and are down 2-3 HP (on average). But are otherwise better off in every way.

Skip Craft(Weaponsmithing); it saves you at most a few thousand gp or so over the course of the game. You will want to max Craft (Alchemy) and/or Craft(Poisonmaking). Also Hide and Move Silently. Decent ranks in Spot, Listen, Search, Disable Device, Disguise, Balance, Tumble, Sleight of Hand. The rest of the skillpoints as you like.

Either go Ranged Attack or TWF; it is too feat expensive to do both. And skip Improved Unarmed. (Or skip Fighter 1 and pick up Monk 1 -- and only do this if you're going TWF, as it doesn't make sense with an archer).



As for feats, by 10th level, you'll have 7 (or 6 with a monk, plus the monk feats). A TWF build with Dex higher than Str -- TWF/ITWF, Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip. A Archer build will have Point Blank, Rapid, and Manyshot, Imp Init, and whatever you want for the last few. (Wow, there really aren't many archery feats in core).

[Nifft]

I just want some reviews or ideas. MM, PHB, and DMG only. 3.5 Also, how could I use poison on an unarmed strike.

Monk 1 / Druid X.

Turn into giant poisonous snakes and use your "unarmed strike" for a flurry of bites.

[NevinPL]

Monk 1 / Druid X.

Turn into giant poisonous snakes and use your "unarmed strike" for a flurry of bites.
And from level 9th, he can (before or after that), "bathe" in some contact poison (since "immunity to all poisons"), and grapple + bite for double poison fun :)

[sovin_ndore]

If your goal is optimization, we have pretty much missed the mark.

You are burning feats for unarmed strike while simultaniously taking weapon focus:dagger (implying weapon use beside unarmed srikes) and TWF... Multiple attack modes mean that you are not good at any of them. Similar TWF effect (all unarmed) could be achieved with Monk 1 Flurry of Blows and gauntlets. This would also give you 'weapons' for adding poison to (if you were so inclined) or enchant as you like.

You are taking rapid shot, currently, which adds nothing to your unarmed combat. Keep your build focused and it will be more effective.

Power Attack works better without TWF/Flurry of Blows and really wants a two handed weapon. In your current build, it should be dropped.

Assassin, rightly enough, is the only source from the books you are allowed which will net you the Poison Use ability (aka getting to use your poison without expending it on yourself a good portion of the time).

I would really feel like I was cheating you if I did not also point out that poison is generally a very bad combat strategy with or without nearly unlimited book resources. You can either throw money at a one shot, low DC save effect with a secondary effect you will never see (as, hopefully, your target will be dead by end of combat). Or you could have a spell effect with a scaling save DC. With this in mind, sneak attack, death attack, and assassin spells are probably the closest you can get without falling for the trap that is poison use.

If you want to Assassin better, stack more Sneak Attack from Rogue. If you want to punch things better or make more attacks, dip a level or so in Monk. If you need extra feats, take some fighter. I don't see much you are getting out of the Ranger levels.

[icefractal]

There's a way to make poison effective in core, although not until at least 7th level - Minor Creation. One casting makes enough Black Lotus to coat yourself, all your weapons, all your allies' weapons, and still have a bucket to throw in the face of your foes.

But actually buying poison, or even crafting it - probably not, it's very overpriced for what it does.

Hmm - Rogue 1 / Monk 1 / Druid 9, perhaps? You're immune to poison, you have not only TWF but also Flurry, and you can have enough UMD to use a wand of Minor Creation. Your accuracy isn't great, but that doesn't matter - cast Produce Flame, and you can Flurry + TWF with touch attacks, each dealing 2d6+5 plus Black Lotus. And if you run into a situation where poison doesn't work, you have all the other Druid abilities to fall back on.

If you want it as a non-caster, then Rogue 1 / Monk 11 is also immune to poison, and can do the same thing (using a wand for Produce Flame). Less to fall back on though.

[sovin_ndore]

There's a way to make poison effective in core, although not until at least 7th level - Minor Creation. One casting makes enough Black Lotus to coat yourself, all your weapons, all your allies' weapons, and still have a bucket to throw in the face of your foes.
I would definitely get approval from your DM before you start mass producing exactly 100 one pint potion bottles (4500gp) items for the cost of a spell that would only require 280gp to get an NPC to cast (and that at minimum level). That would ruin an economy.

[Nifft]

I would definitely get approval from your DM before you start mass producing exactly 100 one pint potion bottles (4500gp) items for the cost of a spell that would only require 280gp to get an NPC to cast (and that at minimum level). That would ruin an economy.

"That spell is toxic."

"Yes, that's my point."