Help on a Binder build

[Val666]

Hello guys c: Im starting a game soon and wanted to play a Binder. For this game I want to try a melee/blaster Binder. Not Melee Blast like having pounce and that, but something that is useful on melee and range combat. Also im going for KotSS at lvl 11 to make Zceryll my patron vestige. Is that a good idea? Starting level 1, Scores: 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 in any order. Thanks everyone c:!

[Venger]

yeah zceryll's a fine choice for a patron vestige.

handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2942.0) is a good place to start

and my favorite binder resource, especially since you're picking zceryll as your patron:

binder's summon and spell list (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9094.0)

lists every monster you can tap and every spell at your fingertips.

blast and melee to your heart's content.

[Val666]

Thank you very much Venger! I'll take a look to the handbooks. I wanted to ask, for a melee binder which is the stat priority?

[ekarney]

I wanted to ask, for a melee binder which is the stat priority?

Same as any other melee character, Strength, and of course Constitution. You'll want a bit of dex for feat pre-reqs, like combat reflexes and such, but you won't need it too high.

Iirc Binders get good Will saves, so you should be able to dump wis, get that 10 in Int.

Something like this maybe: Str:18 Dex:12 Con:14 Wis:8 Int:10 Cha:16
Maybe put your fourth level ability increase into Dexterity.

In any other case, I'd put that 18 into Charisma, but if you're specifically going melee binder you'll want that strength big time.

[The Viscount]

Of high use to a binder is this wonderful list here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?358392-The-new-quick-vestige-list) which all the important details on all vestiges, including all the web enhancement ones. The only ones it doesn't mention are the 2 dragon magazine vestiges, Kas and Primus, which can be found here (http://www.scribd.com/doc/38835505/Tome-of-Magic-Additional-Vestige-Collection-v2-1-2). I would recommend against using Primus. Kas is powerful, but somewhat situational.

Feat choices are important, I heavily recommend buying improved binding as soon as possible. Ignore special requirement is a good use of the bonus feat at 4. You might want to put it earlier to save on some skill points. The guide in venger's post has a good section on minimizing skill point expenditures for prereqs.

For melee, Andras is a solid choice for some punch before Eligor comes online; Eligor's strength boost is very nice (and typeless). For ranged blasting, Focalor is your man. Damage is solid and scales, and save is only for half. It's one of the very few binder abilities that can be used every round (possibly from it being based on call lightning, but I'm not going to question it). For range there's not much more binder gets. Leraje is decent at low levels for ricochet. Balam and Geryon have gaze attacks, but the rules are a bit messy. Balam's gaze has almost no text describing, not even a range! Geryon's has a very good description, including the important ability to not zap your allies. It is will negates, so may lose some utility. If your DM rules that Balam's gaze works like Geryon, then Balam alone makes a good addition for general use (that reroll is wonderful), or both of them for fun (you'll have to ask your DM if using a standard allows you to target an enemy with both gazes or just one). Reading up on the bizarrely large amount of gaze text is necessary to use these, so you're likely better off sticking to Focalor for simplicity. Focalor's debuffing aura is also useful for a melee binder.

[Venger]

Thank you very much Venger! I'll take a look to the handbooks. I wanted to ask, for a melee binder which is the stat priority?

You're quite welcome.

If you want to do some melee but focus on zceryll, I'd suggest prioritizing cha. your array's pretty good, but you get a lot more mileage from cha than you do str.

I'd go:
str 16
dex 12
con 14
int 10
wis 8
cha 18

normally, you want to avoid a negative in dex, con, or wis, but due to the array you're stuck with, I don't really see a way around it. if you're comfortable being a complete dummy, you can swap int and wis, but it'll stop you from doing stuff with knowledge devotion, so you may want to think twice.


Same as any other melee character, Strength, and of course Constitution. You'll want a bit of dex for feat pre-reqs, like combat reflexes and such, but you won't need it too high.

Iirc Binders get good Will saves, so you should be able to dump wis, get that 10 in Int.

Something like this maybe: Str:18 Dex:12 Con:14 Wis:8 Int:10 Cha:16
Maybe put your fourth level ability increase into Dexterity.

In any other case, I'd put that 18 into Charisma, but if you're specifically going melee binder you'll want that strength big time.

if you're not twfing, you don't need dex. combat reflexes has no prerequisites, so even if you want to do aoo stuff, a low positive is fine.

binders have the cleric chassis: average ba, good for/will.

even for a melee binder, cha is more important than str. it determines the dc for your stuff which, if you're focusing on zceryll, can do cool stuff like her bewlidering bolts, or help stop you from making a bad pact with tenebrous, which is pretty ruinous.

[ekarney]

You're quite welcome.

if you're not twfing, you don't need dex. combat reflexes has no prerequisites, so even if you want to do aoo stuff, a low positive is fine.


What am I thinking of then? I'm sure it's not TWF...

I could have gotten really mixed up and thought of Combat Expertise, but that's Int.

Imo, on a 3/4 BAB I'd be more inclined to put point into strength to help my to hit, and to avoid being grappled.

Also, Val, at what level are you starting the character? At 10/11 or earlier?

[Ezekiul]

Going to toss in my hat for an Anima Mage build (with a focus on binder). Going the early entry stuff with Sorceror 1 (precocious apprentice)/Binder 2 (Improved Binding) you can get into Anima mage at level 4. You can exit it at Anima Mage 5 for 1/day free metamagic or 7 for the 2/day free metamagic (I'd recommend persistent spell and wraithstrike to make up for the lower BAB and/or Power Attack) and go into KotSS. By level 9 you'd be Sorc 1/Binder 2/Anima 5/KotSS 1 for Zceryll plus another vestige (tenebrous is good one) and 3rd level spells.

This would give you quite a good amount of utility/versatility in the early levels and give you time to level up in binder for the multiple binds. You would miss out on the 4th vestige at level 20, but you would have 5th levels spells (which nets you most of the really good variety of spells like teleport, haste, greater magic weapon, greater mage armor, etc.).

[Venger]

Going to toss in my hat for an Anima Mage build (with a focus on binder). Going the early entry stuff with Sorceror 1 (precocious apprentice)/Binder 2 (Improved Binding) you can get into Anima mage at level 4. You can exit it at Anima Mage 5 for 1/day free metamagic or 7 for the 2/day free metamagic (I'd recommend persistent spell and wraithstrike to make up for the lower BAB and/or Power Attack) and go into KotSS. By level 9 you'd be Sorc 1/Binder 2/Anima 5/KotSS 1 for Zceryll plus another vestige (tenebrous is good one) and 3rd level spells.

This would give you quite a good amount of utility/versatility in the early levels and give you time to level up in binder for the multiple binds. You would miss out on the 4th vestige at level 20, but you would have 5th levels spells (which nets you most of the really good variety of spells like teleport, haste, greater magic weapon, greater mage armor, etc.).

While that's definitely a solid build this seems to be ops first binder do I wouldn't advise theurging and having to keep track of spells in addition to a whole new sub system his fIrst time out even if they do work well together

[Ezekiul]

While that's definitely a solid build this seems to be ops first binder do I wouldn't advise theurging and having to keep track of spells in addition to a whole new sub system his fIrst time out even if they do work well together

Yeah, my assumption was that if he was going for a Zceryll focus he had enough experience to handle that kind of theurging but I could be wrong.

[Val666]

Also, Val, at what level are you starting the character? At 10/11 or earlier?

Starting level is 1 :smallbiggrin:

Also I played Binders before but not for much and I know the Anima Mage builds but didn't want to go into that <_< I don't like spellcasting that much huehuehue

EDIT: I was thinking on playing between melee (with any of the melee vestiges) and blasting with Focalor and Otiax til I get Zceryll and then go into Kotss c:

[Venger]

Starting level is 1 :smallbiggrin:

Also I played Binders before but not for much and I know the Anima Mage builds but didn't want to go into that <_< I don't like spellcasting that much huehuehue

EDIT: I was thinking on playing between melee (with any of the melee vestiges) and blasting with Focalor and Otiax til I get Zceryll and then go into Kotss c:

figured.

yeah that sounds like a plan. what're you thinking for race?

[Val666]

figured.

yeah that sounds like a plan. what're you thinking for race?

Well I'm Human right now Dx my party is discussing the possibility of adding free +1 LA templates but I don't think that would happen :v

[Sagetim]

Well I'm Human right now Dx my party is discussing the possibility of adding free +1 LA templates but I don't think that would happen :v

Well, while your mental stats would hate you, if you get a free +1 LA template, look at Feral. Mmmmm...Fast Healing. It's in Savage Species.

[ekarney]

Well I'm Human right now Dx my party is discussing the possibility of adding free +1 LA templates but I don't think that would happen :v

I assume you're going human for the bonus feat? If that's the case Strongheart Halflings are an option, provided you can get past the -2 strength.

Neraph are usually reasonably solid, solely for LA +0 Outsider.

[Blackhawk748]

Well I'm Human right now Dx my party is discussing the possibility of adding free +1 LA templates but I don't think that would happen :v

Two templates that are nice are Draconic and Mineral Warrior. Draconic is all positive, but Mineral Warrior gives you DR 8/adamatium and a Smite, oh and Nat Armor, but negatives to mentals (i dont recall which right now)

Edit: Lesser Aasimar is usually pretty good, hard to argue with two positive stats.

[Val666]

I'd like to stick with human for background reasons but an Elan may come to place :B Also I'll ask for some advice for the Blasting side of a Binder, like which are good early Vestiges for that c:

[Sagetim]

I'd like to stick with human for background reasons but an Elan may come to place :B Also I'll ask for some advice for the Blasting side of a Binder, like which are good early Vestiges for that c:

Focalor goes pew pew pew and things go 'oh god, why lightning?'

Amon goes 'bwaaaaaaah' and people go 'fiiiiire! The paaaain' (then at higher level) 'fiiii...oh, it's just fire.'

Haures (Haagenti? Whatever) one of them goes 'Phantasmal Killer' and everything goes 'oh, wait, that's not a death effect, eeeee!' Phantasmal Killer has No Death Tag. And as a supernatural ability I think it skips SR?

And then there's Bill. Bill is the depravity mage that was removed from reality by the actions of the player characters (myself included) in a dnd game that had it's last session (for now) last thursday. Bill probably has some taint and insanity based abilities. We're not sure yet, no one bothered to get the character's real name or stat him up as a Vestige yet.

And there's probably some others I'm not thinking of. Maybe you could abuse Karsus to wand some things to death? Heavy Magic is heavy.

[The Viscount]

I would advise against feral if you're only interested in fast healing. Buer gives fast healing as well as unlimited healing for others, and as the handbook mentions if you can get your hands on the shield of mercy you can turn Andras' smites into unlimited healing and just use him instead, it's a matter of preference really.

If you are getting a free +1 LA template I will second Draconic. It's not super interesting, but it is very good use of the 1 LA.

Amon will be decent blaster at early levels, but I'd personally lean more towards Leraje for ricochet, at low levels the second attack is a lot. 2nd level vestiges don't really give anything blasty, but Malphas is the most directly offensive, and gives a reliable means of using his sudden strike. For this reason I'd suggest improved binding so you can get 3rds at level 3. It's worth spending the feat on for earlier access. It's saved my bacon playing a low level binder.

I had assumed Haures's Phantasmal Killer is still a death effect because it says "as the spell" am I missing something?

[Blackhawk748]

I would advise against feral if you're only interested in fast healing. Buer gives fast healing as well as unlimited healing for others, and as the handbook mentions if you can get your hands on the shield of mercy you can turn Andras' smites into unlimited healing and just use him instead, it's a matter of preference really.

If you are getting a free +1 LA template I will second Draconic. It's not super interesting, but it is very good use of the 1 LA.

Amon will be decent blaster at early levels, but I'd personally lean more towards Leraje for ricochet, at low levels the second attack is a lot. 2nd level vestiges don't really give anything blasty, but Malphas is the most directly offensive, and gives a reliable means of using his sudden strike. For this reason I'd suggest improved binding so you can get 3rds at level 3. It's worth spending the feat on for earlier access. It's saved my bacon playing a low level binder.

I had assumed Haures's Phantasmal Killer is still a death effect because it says "as the spell" am I missing something?

Phantasmal Killer isnt a death spell, its a Fear Mind Affecting spell that happens to kill you.

[Ezekiul]

Amon also allows access to Metabreath feats from Draconomicon, which can be a good use of your first round of combat in you load it up with things like Quicken/Clinging for some good blasting damage (you can get Entangling Exhalation if you go silverbrow human and make it a debuff too).

[Nifft]

Amon also allows access to Metabreath feats from Draconomicon, which can be a good use of your first round of combat in you load it up with things like Quicken/Clinging for some good blasting damage (you can get Entangling Exhalation if you go silverbrow human and make it a debuff too).

I haven't done this myself, but I hear that a Dragonborn is quite well-situated to make use of Entangling Exhalation and other Meta-Breath feats.

It's also nice because you can use your other breath after you Meta + Entangle some jerks with your first breath.

[Venger]

I'd like to stick with human for background reasons but an Elan may come to place :B Also I'll ask for some advice for the Blasting side of a Binder, like which are good early Vestiges for that c:
elan have a cha penalty, so they're not too helpful here since you're not abusing alter self, their one good point, so you'd be losing your human feat for nothing.


Focalor goes pew pew pew and things go 'oh god, why lightning?'

Amon goes 'bwaaaaaaah' and people go 'fiiiiire! The paaaain' (then at higher level) 'fiiii...oh, it's just fire.'

Haures (Haagenti? Whatever) one of them goes 'Phantasmal Killer' and everything goes 'oh, wait, that's not a death effect, eeeee!' Phantasmal Killer has No Death Tag. And as a supernatural ability I think it skips SR?

And then there's Bill. Bill is the depravity mage that was removed from reality by the actions of the player characters (myself included) in a dnd game that had it's last session (for now) last thursday. Bill probably has some taint and insanity based abilities. We're not sure yet, no one bothered to get the character's real name or stat him up as a Vestige yet.

And there's probably some others I'm not thinking of. Maybe you could abuse Karsus to wand some things to death? Heavy Magic is heavy.

Su abilities do skip SR. phantasmal killer is just... not a good spell.


I would advise against feral if you're only interested in fast healing. Buer gives fast healing as well as unlimited healing for others, and as the handbook mentions if you can get your hands on the shield of mercy you can turn Andras' smites into unlimited healing and just use him instead, it's a matter of preference really.

If you are getting a free +1 LA template I will second Draconic. It's not super interesting, but it is very good use of the 1 LA.

Amon will be decent blaster at early levels, but I'd personally lean more towards Leraje for ricochet, at low levels the second attack is a lot. 2nd level vestiges don't really give anything blasty, but Malphas is the most directly offensive, and gives a reliable means of using his sudden strike. For this reason I'd suggest improved binding so you can get 3rds at level 3. It's worth spending the feat on for earlier access. It's saved my bacon playing a low level binder.

I had assumed Haures's Phantasmal Killer is still a death effect because it says "as the spell" am I missing something?
thirding draconic. it's a good all-around emplate.

wait, there are binders who don't take improved binding?

phantasmal killer is not a death effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantasmalKiller.htm) it doesn't have the death descriptor.

[Blackhawk748]

Su abilities do skip SR. phantasmal killer is just... not a good spell.

Agreed, but Huares' other stuff isnt too bad, min blank and Major Image are both very useful.

Also i feel we have neglected Paimon, hes fun.

[Venger]

Agreed, but Huares' other stuff isnt too bad, min blank and Major Image are both very useful.

Also i feel we have neglected Paimon, hes fun.

yeah haures is pretty solid defensively.

Paimon is wonderful, but Val666 doesn't seem to be building a finesse binder, so he won't get much from paimon since he's no building around him.

[Blackhawk748]

yeah haures is pretty solid defensively.

Paimon is wonderful, but Val666 doesn't seem to be building a finesse binder, so he won't get much from paimon since he's no building around him.

Valid i just felt i should point him out as he gets you Whirlwind Attack, which is situationally useful as well as Paimon's Dance, which is poor mans Dervish Dance.

[Venger]

Valid i just felt i should point him out as he gets you Whirlwind Attack, which is situationally useful as well as Paimon's Dance, which is poor mans Dervish Dance.

very true. handy if you know you'll be fighting a lot of mooks.

[The Viscount]

Valid i just felt i should point him out as he gets you Whirlwind Attack, which is situationally useful as well as Paimon's Dance, which is poor mans Dervish Dance.

Whirlwind Attack is good if you find yourself in that situation, but you should always take steps to avoid that situation. Dance of Death being poor man's Dervish Dance is a very funny concept, since Dervish is already the poor man's class. I had always just thought of it as a funky Spring Attack.

[Blackhawk748]

Whirlwind Attack is good if you find yourself in that situation, but you should always take steps to avoid that situation. Dance of Death being poor man's Dervish Dance is a very funny concept, since Dervish is already the poor man's class. I had always just thought of it as a funky Spring Attack.

It kinda is, but its devastating with the proper build. A Swift Hunter Ranger into Dervish is terrifying

[noob]

One question: Is level 13 wizards(with the right prcs) with one prismatic sphere scroll and stuff of this king mooks when you are level 17?
(You can have four of them against you team and it can hurt)

[Venger]

One question: Is level 13 wizards(with the right prcs) with one prismatic sphere scroll and stuff of this king mooks when you are level 17?
(You can have four of them against you team and it can hurt)

What are you talking about?

[Val666]

Hello again guys :smallbiggrin:

I would like to know about the Dex-based Binder you were talking about. I'll add the unseelie fey template to my character and since it have -2 str and +2 dex I think changing to dex-based would be a great idea. My initial scores were:

Str 16
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 18

With the Unseelie Fey Template and a Dexterity approach I think it would look like this:

Str 10
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 20

Do you think it's ok? I know Paimon will be my guy until later levels but I wanted advice in early game survival (starting lvl 1) Equipment and tips or something Dx Idk

Thanks again for everything! you guys are awesome :B

[Blackhawk748]

Grab Improved Binding and get Paimon ASAP, you will be a happier person, also you're gonna want to get Shadow Blade, for Dex to Damage, so either 2 Feats (Martial Study and Martial Stance) or 1 level of Swordsage. After that continue with Binder as required.

[Sagetim]

Grab Improved Binding and get Paimon ASAP, you will be a happier person, also you're gonna want to get Shadow Blade, for Dex to Damage, so either 2 Feats (Martial Study and Martial Stance) or 1 level of Swordsage. After that continue with Binder as required.

I would suggest the feats investment, if only because a sword sage dip is going to slow down your binding progression. Weapon Finesse would probably also be helpful (I can't recall off hand if paimon gives that or not).

Also, sword sage is a 3/4th bab class, so a 1 level dip is going to eat into your bab. And if you want to hit things, you're going to need that bab. And you don't have enough wisdom to make a second sword sage level particularly useful (the level where you get to add wis to ac while in light or no armor).

[Blackhawk748]

I would suggest the feats investment, if only because a sword sage dip is going to slow down your binding progression. Weapon Finesse would probably also be helpful (I can't recall off hand if paimon gives that or not).

Also, sword sage is a 3/4th bab class, so a 1 level dip is going to eat into your bab. And if you want to hit things, you're going to need that bab. And you don't have enough wisdom to make a second sword sage level particularly useful (the level where you get to add wis to ac while in light or no armor).

Paimon gives Weapon Finesse. I only recommend the feats if you have the feats to burn, otherwise the Dip is nice. Yes it slaps your BaB, but you get 5 Maneuvers and a Stance, and if you take the dip at level 5 (or 6) you can take 2nd level Maneuvers. Hello Mountain Hammer.

[Val666]

Uhmmm I think I'll be taking the two feats. Im human and with a couple of flaws it should work ok. Thanks for the replies c:!