DM Thinking: How Would You Rule?

[Occasional Sage]

Tholnak is a Battlemaster Fighter/Rogue with Expertise: Athletics. When he uses the Trip Attack maneuver, would you double his Proficiency bonus when determining the DC of his target's STR save? Why, or why not?

My answer is an equivocal "yes": while the mechanical paths are dissimilar in the maneuver vs a plain shove, they seem to be modeling the same thing; I view them as similar, though not congruent. The two are written differently enough that I'm convincible though.

[Esclados]

No, because Trip Attack doesn't involve an Athletics check.

He does get the Expertise bonus on attempts to grapple or shove people, though, or defend against the same.

[coredump]

No, because Trip Attack doesn't involve an Athletics check.

He does get the Expertise bonus on attempts to grapple or shove people, though, or defend against the same.

I concur...

[Ninja_Prawn]

No, because Trip Attack doesn't involve an Athletics check.

He does get the Expertise bonus on attempts to grapple or shove people, though, or defend against the same.

Exactly. I can't see any argument for expertise applying to manoeuvres. It'd be like applying expertise in Arcana to spell attack rolls.

[Joe the Rat]

That's Four "No's". Exploit will not be moving on to the next round.

To outline:
Maneuvers are not Athletics checks.
(afb: Are Maneuvers resisted with saves or ability checks?)

Maneuvers occur with an attack, and add damage (usually).
Shoves occur instead of an attack, and do no damage.

Maneuvers burn a Short Rest resource to use.
Shoves are free.

So he can make a choice between shoving with a higher chance of success (Athletics expertise), or making an attack (with extra damage, and sneak attack may apply), with an attempted trip as a rider effect. In other words, he has options depending on what is most useful at the time.

[AugustNights]

As a DM, I would allow it, but I'd consider it a house rule. I would allow a similar increase to the DC of Pushing Attack, but not for Goading Attack or Menacing Attack.

[Demonic Spoon]

As a DM, I would allow it, but I'd consider it a house rule. I would allow a similar increase to the DC of Pushing Attack, but not for Goading Attack or Menacing Attack.

A rogue 2/Battlemaster X is now way better at a battlemaster's thing than a Battlemaster X+2.

[INDYSTAR188]

A rogue 2/Battlemaster X is now way better at a battlemaster's thing than a Battlemaster X+2.

Could you expand on this please?

[Theodoxus]

Because with that ruling, the Rogue 2 BM is doubling his proficiency bonus, the BM (sans rogue, and thus 2 levels higher in the BM progression) will never have double the proficiency bonus.

At 5th level (first time this could come online) - a Rogue 2/BM 3 would have +6 to his proficiency bonus to trip. A BM 5 would have +3.

[Demonic Spoon]

Because with that ruling, the Rogue 2 BM is doubling his proficiency bonus, the BM (sans rogue, and thus 2 levels higher in the BM progression) will never have double the proficiency bonus.

At 5th level (first time this could come online) - a Rogue 2/BM 3 would have +6 to his proficiency bonus to trip. A BM 5 would have +3.

Yup.

A rogue 2/BM X gets much more efficiency out of his maneuvers than a straight BM because each of the limited superiority dice is now much harder to resist. A rogue 2/BM X will trip things successfully more often than a straight BM, in addition to getting all of the other cool tricks 2 levels in rogue gets you.

[JAL_1138]

I'm AFB--what does the trip maneuver say sets the DC to resist? That would be what answers the question.

Expertise is what makes bards, rogues, Rogue 2/(martial) Xes, and Bard 3/(martial) Xes such good grapplers. Because it's explicitly an Athletics check opposed by Athletics or Acrobatics. Trip, I don't think, is in the same category. It's an attack rider. You make an ordinary attack roll, spend a resource, and they have to resist. But I don't know what sets the DC. If you make an Athletics check to set it, then Expertise (Athletics) applies. If you don't make an Athletics roll to set it, Expertise (Athletics) does not apply.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I'm AFB--what does the trip maneuver say sets the DC to resist? That would be what answers the question.

Expertise is what makes bards, rogues, Rogue 2/(martial) Xes, and Bard 3/(martial) Xes such good grapplers. Because it's explicitly an Athletics check opposed by Athletics or Acrobatics. Trip, I don't think, is in the same category. It's an attack rider. You make an ordinary attack roll, spend a resource, and they have to resist. But I don't know what sets the DC. If you make an Athletics check to set it, then Expertise (Athletics) applies. If you don't make an Athletics roll to set it, Expertise (Athletics) does not apply.

PHB 73: "Maneuver save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength or Dexterity modifier (your choice)"

I can't believe that any DM would ever consider giving double proficiency bonus to this. At least not without doing a homebrew remix of the battlemaster or making it the capstone of a prestige class.

[Vogonjeltz]

That's Four "No's". Exploit will not be moving on to the next round.

To outline:
Maneuvers are not Athletics checks.
(afb: Are Maneuvers resisted with saves or ability checks?)

Maneuvers occur with an attack, and add damage (usually).
Shoves occur instead of an attack, and do no damage.

Maneuvers burn a Short Rest resource to use.
Shoves are free.

So he can make a choice between shoving with a higher chance of success (Athletics expertise), or making an attack (with extra damage, and sneak attack may apply), with an attempted trip as a rider effect. In other words, he has options depending on what is most useful at the time.

On the flip side of this the maneuver provides a known DC (by the user) whereas the athletics check would rely on rolling something above that number. Also access to proficiency in saving throws is much less common than proficiency in athletics or acrobatics.

For example, if the battlemaster tries to trip a rogue, using shove the rogue could have proficiency and expertise in athletics or acrobatics to oppose the check (meaning there is essentially a 45% chance of success against an equal stat equal level opponent) whereas lacking proficiency in strength saving throws they would have anywhere from a 75% (level 1 fighter, +0 ability modifiers vs rogue with +5 strength modifier) to 5% (level 17+ fighter with +5 ability modifer vs rogue with +0 strength modifier).

[Occasional Sage]

Because with that ruling, the Rogue 2 BM is doubling his proficiency bonus, the BM (sans rogue, and thus 2 levels higher in the BM progression) will never have double the proficiency bonus.

At 5th level (first time this could come online) - a Rogue 2/BM 3 would have +6 to his proficiency bonus to trip. A BM 5 would have +3.

If variant human is on the table, this can happen as early as CL2. Start at Fighter1 using a shortsword and shield with Shield Master, take Rogue1 for Expertise(Athletics), and now you get a bonus action before your attack to shove (doubling Proficiency) with your shield, ensuring Advantage to trigger your Sneak Attack dice.

Without variant humans CL5 is where I see it happening, needing the level4 ASI plus a dip.

This isn't quite the same, using the shove mechanics rather than the maneuver and typing up your bonus action, but it opens Champion fighter to double your crit range with all those SA dice.

[NNescio]

Because with that ruling, the Rogue 2 BM is doubling his proficiency bonus, the BM (sans rogue, and thus 2 levels higher in the BM progression) will never have double the proficiency bonus.

At 5th level (first time this could come online) - a Rogue 2/BM 3 would have +6 to his proficiency bonus to trip. A BM 5 would have +3.

Also, by a similar line of logic (trip is close enough to shove, so athletics apply.) A Moon Druid X/Rogue 2 can apply double proficiency to his on-hit grapple rider effects*, like the Giant Octopus.

Which is to say, OP.

(*Most Battlemaster maneuvers can also be considered rider effects.)

[PoeticDwarf]

Tholnak is a Battlemaster Fighter/Rogue with Expertise: Athletics. When he uses the Trip Attack maneuver, would you double his Proficiency bonus when determining the DC of his target's STR save? Why, or why not?

My answer is an equivocal "yes": while the mechanical paths are dissimilar in the maneuver vs a plain shove, they seem to be modeling the same thing; I view them as similar, though not congruent. The two are written differently enough that I'm convincible though.

No, it isn't about athletics and the DC would be too high, it isn't more balanced and it isn't more logical.

[NNescio]

My answer is an equivocal "yes": while the mechanical paths are dissimilar in the maneuver vs a plain shove, they seem to be modeling the same thing; I view them as similar, though not congruent. The two are written differently enough that I'm convincible though.

Say hello to Level 4 Dire Wolves with DC 15 Str Saving Throws or be knocked prone each time they attack, Level 8 Rhinos with DC 19 Str ST or prone each time they charge, Level 8 Giant Elks with DC 18 Str ST or prone each time they charge (and they get to use a very damaging stomp attack if the target is prone), and Level 11 Ankylosauri with DC 20 Str ST or prone.

The DCs are completely unbalanced for the levels they occur, and they occur at-will each time a hit lands instead of being limited like the BM's superiority dice.

All these abilities describe the target as "knocked prone" if they fail the save, and are triggered after a successful hit (and charge, for some), exactly like the Trip Maneuver. These are therefore similar enough to qualify, by your line of logic.

And let's not get started on the elephants and their bigger cousins.

[Ruslan]

If variant human is on the table, this can happen as early as CL2. Start at Fighter1 using a shortsword and shield with Shield Master, take Rogue1 for Expertise(Athletics), and now you get a bonus action before your attack to shove (doubling Proficiency) with your shield, ensuring Advantage to trigger your Sneak Attack dice.Too bad Shield Master is worded in a way that requires you to take the attack action first. Pretty sure it was intentional.

[JackPhoenix]

As with most bonus actions, you choose the timing, so the Shield Master shove can come before or after the Attack action.

There's nothing saying you need to take the Attack Action before using Shield Master.

[Ruslan]

Let me break this down for you.

If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield.
If you're trying to take the Shove bonus action before attacking, did you take an Attack action on your turn? No, you didn't. Therefore, the "If" clause isn't true, therefore you can't shove. I do realize JC ruled you can, but he's going against the wording of the feat, against basic logic, and against the English language.

[Coidzor]

Let me break this down for you.

If you're trying to take the Shove bonus action before attacking, did you take an Attack action on your turn? No, you didn't. Therefore, the "If" clause isn't true, therefore you can't shove. I do realize JC ruled you can, but he's going against the wording of the feat, against basic logic, and against the English language.

Obviously with the interpretation you hate people are locked into the attack action.


Say hello to Level 4 Dire Wolves with DC 15 Str Saving Throws or be knocked prone each time they attack, Level 8 Rhinos with DC 19 Str ST or prone each time they charge, Level 8 Giant Elks with DC 18 Str ST or prone each time they charge (and they get to use a very damaging stomp attack if the target is prone), and Level 11 Ankylosauri with DC 20 Str ST or prone.

The DCs are completely unbalanced for the levels they occur, and they occur at-will each time a hit lands instead of being limited like the BM's superiority dice.

All these abilities describe the target as "knocked prone" if they fail the save, and are triggered after a successful hit (and charge, for some), exactly like the Trip Maneuver. These are therefore similar enough to qualify, by your line of logic.

And let's not get started on the elephants and their bigger cousins.

And here all the talk about grappling was about how basically no monsters have proficiency with Athletics, and all these animals have not only proficiency with Athletics but Expertise as well?

[JackPhoenix]

Let me break this down for you.

If you're trying to take the Shove bonus action before attacking, did you take an Attack action on your turn? No, you didn't. Therefore, the "If" clause isn't true, therefore you can't shove. I do realize JC ruled you can, but he's going against the wording of the feat, against basic logic, and against the English language.

The wording is if, not after. The wording only specifies you must take an Attack action on your turn (you can't take an action during someone else's turn anyway), not that you MUST take it before taking the bonus action. So, it may go against basic logic, but neither English language nor the feat's wording prevents you from, for example, shoving someone with shield as an bonus action, using the "free" item interaction to sheathe your sword, moving up to your speed and kicking the wall on the other end of the room as an unarmed Attack action. Stupid? Sure...RAW? You bet...and apparently even RAI. And when you can use a different feat to reload and shoot a heavy crossbow 8 times in 6 second period without using magic, it's not even that bad. It's a game, screw the real world logic and let the martials be awesome for once.

Edit: interestlingly, it's the only feat that uses the word "if", Polearm Mastery, Tavern Brawler, Sentinel, etc. all use "when"

[Occasional Sage]

Let me break this down for you.

If you're trying to take the Shove bonus action before attacking, did you take an Attack action on your turn? No, you didn't. Therefore, the "If" clause isn't true, therefore you can't shove. I do realize JC ruled you can, but he's going against the wording of the feat, against basic logic, and against the English language.

You're allowed to chose when within your turn any of your actions happen, though, and the wording of the rules is important in applying logic. It's completely fine to, say, move 10', take the Shield Master bonus action to knock somebody prone, finish my move, then launch my attack.

That said, I am thoroughly convinced by the game-balance arguments.

[coredump]

The issue is kind of moot.

So you take the Attack Action.... which means you can now take the Bonus Action. So you move 5', take your bonus action to Shove prone, then you take an attack, then move10' and take another attack.

IOW, there is no requirement to take your attacks immediately after declaring your Attack Action.

[Slipperychicken]

Tholnak is a Battlemaster Fighter/Rogue with Expertise: Athletics. When he uses the Trip Attack maneuver, would you double his Proficiency bonus when determining the DC of his target's STR save? Why, or why not?

That's not how it works, and doubling proficiency for a saving throw breaks bounded accuracy. Players' save DCs are supposed to range from roughly 8 to 19, and pushing it much higher than it's supposed to go (8+stat+prof) can make it unreasonably difficult for enemies to save against it.

[NNescio]

Obviously with the interpretation you hate people are locked into the attack action.



And here all the talk about grappling was about how basically no monsters have proficiency with Athletics, and all these animals have not only proficiency with Athletics but Expertise as well?

Rogue 2/Moon Druid X

Technically, they are not allowed to use proficiency, as they aren't grappling or shoving. They are effectively grappling or shoving, yes, but those are just riders on their attacks.

[Occasional Sage]

That's not how it works, and doubling proficiency for a saving throw breaks bounded accuracy. Players' save DCs are supposed to range from roughly 8 to 19, and pushing it much higher than it's supposed to go (8+stat+prof) can make it unreasonably difficult for enemies to save against it.

I'm convinced that BM doesn't and shouldn't work that way.

It's still completely RAW to use Fighter/Rogue with Shield Master and Expertise:Athletics to double proficiency for a contested skill check, which is analogous. It's a bit easier on the shoved guy to find a way to resist since he gets to chose Str(Athletics) or Dex(Acrobatics) to resist with rather than a fixed save, but it's still an equivalent swing in the numbers.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

I'm convinced that BM doesn't and shouldn't work that way.

It's still completely RAW to use Fighter/Rogue with Shield Master and Expertise:Athletics to double proficiency for a contested skill check, which is analogous. It's a bit easier on the shoved guy to find a way to resist since he gets to chose Str(Athletics) or Dex(Acrobatics) to resist with rather than a fixed save, but it's still an equivalent swing in the numbers.
But the Battlemaster Manuever save DC does not say it's your Athletics proficiency bonus, so Expertise(Athletics) has absolutely no way to apply.

Theoretically your save DCs would be identical without knowing Athletics at all.

Battlemaster DCs work off of your proficiency bonus, but like Defensive Duelist, are not tied to a skill. Probably exressly to prevent things like Expertise working with them. It's implied by the design notes on things like bounded accuracy.

[Mara]

Tholnak is a Battlemaster Fighter/Rogue with Expertise: Athletics. When he uses the Trip Attack maneuver, would you double his Proficiency bonus when determining the DC of his target's STR save? Why, or why not?

My answer is an equivocal "yes": while the mechanical paths are dissimilar in the maneuver vs a plain shove, they seem to be modeling the same thing; I view them as similar, though not congruent. The two are written differently enough that I'm convincible though.
I would let someone trip with an Athletics check, but I wouldn't allow a trip attack (that both trips and does damage)

[Louro]

About shield master.
I would say you attack and then can use the shove bonus attack. Why? Getting someone prone gives you advantage on further attacks on him, which is way too much for just a feat.

AND...
You shove, then move, then take you attack action. What if you trigger a trap during your movement and fall unconscious? You won't be able to take your attack action, so the shove bonus can't happen so... incoming time warp distortion.

[burninatortrog]

The attack action is not the same as the attack roll.

In that scenario, you would declare that you're taking the Attack action when you make the bonus action shove. Doing so locks you in to attacking as the only use for your action on that turn. It doesn't require that you make the attack roll immediately, or even that you make it at all.

[Louro]

I see what you mean but I feel that taking an action without actually taking the action is a bit weird.

I guess this one is worth to be thrown at the safe advice.

[burninatortrog]

Asked and answered. (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/29/shield-master-feat/)

[Louro]

Oh, powerful feat.