Were-creature druid and BBEG buld help question.

[Kol Korran]

Heya folks. I'm pretty crappy with mechanics, and not that well versed in all the options of Pathfinder. I'm looking for some answers on a mechanical question, and another a suggestion of classes for a BBEG.

Ok, first question, not just for the BBEG:
Suppose I have a were creature. If that creature is also a druid of say... 8th level. How does the druid shapeshifting affect it's own shapeshifting? From what I gather, the two aren't related, and the were creature can turn into it's were form as much as it wants, but also other animals by the druidic limitations, right?

As to the BBEG:
The game will most likely be an E8 game, but racial hit dice are not capped by the 8 level limit, meaning I can have a were dire lion/ level 8 in some class. Yeah, Lycanthrope (As well as any monster with racial HD) have the potential to be stronger.

Now, the BBEG as I see him, is a Quite powerful and majestic were-white lion. (Dire lion with the Solaric template most likely, haven't decided, but some templates to make him into something more unique). I envision him as a charismatic leader and combatant, both a man of the wild, but likewise highly educated, can be cultured and influential. Think of Mufasa from Lion King, only with the capability of cold cruelty of say... Jafar or Frolo (And here I end the disney analogs... Not quite sure Why I chose them). I'd like him to feel regal, powerful a True King, both to the wild and to people. He has a few plots, concerning knowing the secrets of the land and the region the game takes place in, but one of his major efforts is to inflict many people, teach them the benefits, gifts, and "release" of lycanthropy, and basically build himself a sort of prophet-led cult and army, for his further plans. To many of them, he is "the first"/ "The savior"/ "teacher"/ "Father"/ "Liberator" and so on. (I'm changing quite a bit of how Lycanthropy works, suffice to say for this thread that you don't always turn to the type of animal identical to that of the lycanthrope that infected you)

Build wise, he'll be "undetermined class" 8, dire lion template, Solaric template. (Or another more fitting) Nut sure yet what race, but most likely one of the core races.
What I'd like his build to include?
- Physically strong. Makign a good melee combatant, possibly decent ranged combatant.
- Fairly fast, at least in animal form.
- High cha and social skills, Decent varied knowledge skills (I'd like to play him as knowledgeable, savvy, and a planner)
- High fort and will saves. Hp as well (But I think the were lion HD will take care of that.
- Possibly mediocre spell casting (Mainly some spells to get out of major jams, self buffs and counters)
- If possible some group enhancing abilities, ability to inspire and group buff! (Spells, aura, and such)
- Has an ability to infiltrate and interact within a city, without being easily detected.

An important note is that he Though powerful, and having some option, he shouldn't have too much varied option. For example, I'd prefer if he's a druid, to NOT be able to turn into so many animals (In fact, I'd like to keep the "White Lion" image as a sort of trademark). So, my questions are:
1) What sort of a class do you think would fit him? I'm thinking Skald, Oracle, Druid, Perhaps Hunter?
2) If druid, is there a feat/ combination/ ability that would leave out the shapeshifting, or somehow make it enhance the current were-shifting?
3) Any other ideas mechanically wise you think might help this idea?

[Harmelyo]

Druid is not the best fit IMHO, you don't have a lot of skills, little in the way of stealth, No social skills whatsoever... With druid it will be hard to fill the socialite part of the role, but it will autosuccess on the king of the wild part.

Yet, even if it kinda sucks on some point, there is a few archetypes that would make it a better fit or at least there is 2 archetypes that trades the Wildshape but only one is even remotely interesting:

Nature Fang (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo---druid-archetypes/nature-fang):
This could actually be a better fit to your request than vanilla druid. It trades the Wildshape feature and some others for Slayer's talent and a bit of SA.

Gains:

Studied Target: Amazing for the social interactions,+2 bonus on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival. This is BLUE, and it only take a move action to trigger it against another target so you can without cheesing use it against 2 characters/round during social interraction. It also work in combat to get a +2 to hit and damage so what not to like?
Slayer Talents: With 8 levels, you will have 3 slayer talents which can in turn be traded for rogue talents opening among others combat and ranger style feat. With all those options, you should be able to get flavorful and/or mechanic talent to up your game (Slayer talent: Foil Scrutiny is really nice for your character idea). This gives you a lot of flexibility, it is more or less up trading 3 feats for your wildshape, I would usually cry at the idea but in this case... sweet!
Sneak attack: You gain 1d6 which is nice but you may have trouble triggering it without external help as you are neither a dirty fighter or a sneaky rogue, unless you pick and use your animal companion... Kinda bad, but it is a boss so would the situation arise you should probably be able to find a solution to use it.

Losses:

You lost your animal empathy which kinda hurt your idea of being Mufasa *cought *Scar*cought cought*, it is counterbalanced by your Lycanthrope empathy. It won't be as broad in its use but well you will stilll be able to befriend all cats...
Wildshape: it hurts but you ask for it!
woodland stride & resist nature's lure: Not too painful, being a spell caster you can overcome that without too much troubles.
nature sense: Don't care, don't mind. Lycanthrope reduce the loss on survival (with the +2 WIS) and knowledge nature is still a class skill...



Conclusion
I would like to come back on the requirement and make some comments.

- Physically strong. Making a good melee combatant, possibly decent ranged combatant.:
Covered by Lycanthropy, Solaric and archetype:

When in hybrid form you get a +2 Str, +2 Con, on top of you using the best of your humanoid form or animal form. Dire lion got the following: Str 25, Dex 15, Con 17. Solaric nets you a +2 hit and damage if in the daylight. Druid spells should help as well. Nature fang will grant you even more bonuses from studied target and sneak attack. Taking into account that your hybrid form will get you a bite and 2 claws, that should put anyone in front of you in a world of pain.

At range, you can open with your scorching ray after that you are limited to using your sling :( or spells :D say hello to call lightings (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/call-lightning)

- Fairly fast, at least in animal form.
Covered by Lycanthropy + Solaric:

Remember your +10 speed bonus in Daylight or under the eponymous spell which you incidentally can cast as a spell like! You also have access to LongStrider (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/l/longstrider). So that is 40 feet in human form, 50 in animal form and +10 on top if under the sun or daylight.

- High cha and social skills, Decent varied knowledge skills (I'd like to play him as knowledgeable, savvy, and a planner)

First you have to remember that you have a +2 morale bonus on every checks in Daylight, it should give you a decent edge in many situation if you play smart.
Second, Lycanthropy should cover for your physical stats so you can seriously invest on mental stats. Having after template a +2 WIS and +2 CHA should help as well... Don't forget to put some points in INT to help with the skills. You only get 4 from Druid. Studied target get you a +2 bonus on perception, bluff and sense motive against your target. You won't easily be a skill monkey but you should be pretty good at any social skill you invest into.

- High fort and will saves. Hp as well (But I think the were lion HD will take care of that.)
You don't get racial HD from Lycanthropy in Pathfinder!

It is true that you get good save from druid and good stat in your hybrid and animal form but it won't be the crazy amounts that you would get in 3.5.

- Possibly mediocre spell casting (Mainly some spells to get out of major jams, self buffs and counters)

You are a druid you will have plenty of serious buffs and a few out of jam's ones and it is not mediocre at all even if not as powerful/flexible as a wizard

- If possible some group enhancing abilities, ability to inspire and group buff! (Spells, aura, and such)

Trickier: with druid you do get a lot of personal/touch buffs but little group buffs. Domain could give you a few extra group buffs (Haste maybe) but nothing crazy.

- Has an ability to infiltrate and interact within a city, without being easily detected.

Trickier with druid, but domains, spells, traits and magic items should help you covert this

Post-Conclusion: Optimization and Cheese
- You can get domains instead of an animal companion with druid: I would strongly recommend doing so to gain some serious flexibility either spell wise or mechanic wise. Some domains will give you cool spells some other cool abilities. the Obscuring mist spell is on several bonus list and could help being sneaky. Wolf domain gives you pack tactics, Panther gives you darkvision and darkness on your spell list (potent combo!). Desert give you blur effect that is easily fluffable with your Solaric template. Plains domain gives you haste.
- Human would be a good choice, the floating +2 stat and the free feat and the skill point will help you reach your objectives. Note: you can trade the free feat for 2 skill focus with the alternate trait :Focused Study.
- I would strongly advise getting yourself a hat of disguise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/h-l/hat-of-disguise) for 2 reasons: staying in hybrid form all day long, changing appearance to keep a low profile when needed. Bonus: it is cheap as dirt.
- A ring of mind shielding (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-mind-shielding) could be interesting as well as for any two faced character.
- I would use Traits to get Diplomacy and maybe Stealth or bluff on my skill list.

[Kol Korran]

Thanks for the detailed response! I likeyour suggestions, though I am considering the Skald more and more. I like it's ability to influence and enrage followers, plus, it has the make up of savage plus scholar/ educated man to it. Hmmmm.... need to think it through...

However, some of your comments, plus what I (re)read about the lycanthropic template now got me confused. Yes, I will most likely make changes to how it works, (But mostly it's psychological effects, and how it's transmitted), but can you (or someone else) clarify the following:
1) Ok, I get it that you don't add up the HD of the animal+ humanoid. But does that mean you can have a humanoid of 1 HD that can turn into say... a dire lion, who has about 8-10 hp or so?

2) CR: It's says that the CR is that of the base creature or base animal (Whichever is higher)+1. Howdoes that add up exactly? Say you the base animal is a dire lion (CR 5). If it's put upon a 1 HD human, than the total CR is 6. But does it remain so while the human gains levels? is a 3 HD human, or a 5 HD human with a dire lion template still CR 6? Or do you add the levels? And lets say he's level 8, does the dire lion template makes him then a CR 8? (7 from levels, +1) Won't it matter if he's a dire rat, wolf, or dire lion?

How do you end up calculating CR?

3) What DO you get from the base animal? Size, ability scores, natural attacks, special attacks and abilities. Do you get it's racial skill bonuses? Bonus feats?

4) Say I have this BBEG, a human Skald OR Druid 8, Were Dire Lion. (Just that for now) What sort of a CR is he?

[Harmelyo]

1) Ok, I get it that you don't add up the HD of the animal+ humanoid. But does that mean you can have a humanoid of 1 HD that can turn into say... a dire lion, who has about 8-10 hp or so?
As far as I understand it, yes you will have the physical stats (which turn this into the most powerfull transmutation-like effect I know of) but you will be level one. I think this is Paizo answer to the utterly useless nature of Lycanthrope in 3.5. Close to none were even remotely useful or balanced due to their (often numerous) Animal HDs.


2) CR: It's says that the CR is that of the base creature or base animal (Whichever is higher)+1. How does that add up exactly? Say you the base animal is a dire lion (CR 5). If it's put upon a 1 HD human, than the total CR is 6. But does it remain so while the human gains levels? is a 3 HD human, or a 5 HD human with a dire lion template still CR 6? Or do you add the levels? And lets say he's level 8, does the dire lion template makes him then a CR 8? (7 from levels, +1) Won't it matter if he's a dire rat, wolf, or dire lion?

Once again yes. The CR part seems unbalanced until you have an average class level equal to the animal CR. A were dire elephant and a simple were rat will have the same CR for the same Humanoid chasis (this link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/lycanthrope/werebear)show an example of were bear and if you look at the bottom to the editor note you will see scratching the mistake on the speed that the CR is expected to be 5+1). It sounds wacky, I think someone did a terrible job there...


How do you end up calculating CR?

CR = 1 + (CR animal or CR humanoid) You pick whichever is higher.



3) What do you get from the base animal? Size, ability scores, natural attacks, special attacks and abilities.
From the base animal you get:

In human form:


Size of the humanoid
Abilities: +2 WIS -2 CHA
Natural Attacks from animal: nope
Special attacks from animal: nope
Qualities : nope but you gain low-light vision, scent
Speed from animal: nope


In hybrid form:


Size of whichever humanoid or animal is the largest
Abilities*: you get the best of either form and the following modifier on top: +2 CON, +2STR, +2 WIS, -2 CHA
Natural Attacks from animal: yes
Special attacks from animal: yes
Qualities from animal: yes and low-light vision, scent and DR/silver depending on which Lycanthrope you are (natural/inflicted)
Speed from animal: nope


In animal form:


Size of the animal form
Abilities*: you get the best of either form and the following modifier on top: +2 CON, +2STR, +2 WIS, -2 CHA
Natural Attacks from animal: yes
Special attacks from animal: yes
Qualities from animal: yes and low-light vision, scent and DR/silver depending on which Lycanthrope you are (natural/inflicted)
Speed from animal: nope





Do you get it's racial skill bonuses? Bonus feats?
Looking at the Were-rat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/lycanthrope/wererat), I can say that you don't get bonus feats. Weretiger and wereboar let me see that you don't get, in hybrid form and human form at least, any of the skill bonuses. But you do get the Defensive Abilities in hybrid form. I have no base for animals so it will be up to the GM or to anyone with access to other sources...



4) Say I have this BBEG, a human Skald OR Druid 8, Were Dire Lion. (Just that for now) What sort of a CR is he?
Refering to the Determine Cr part (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering#Step-2-Determine-CR), you can tell that the CR of your Skald or druid would be CR 7 ( HD-1), Dire lion is CR 5, so you pick CR 7 as it is more than 5 (Dho!). On top of that you would apply the Lycanthrope adjustement of +1 to a grand total of CR 8.

I would strongly advise of running a few test to really check the CR, druid at the very least benefit a lot from the this and it may be closer to CR 9. Hybrid letting you focus on you mental stats at close to no disadvantage...