An idea about the price of mundane vs. magical

[Kol Korran]

Now, i know that D&D/ PF economics are horribly broken, and I don't intend to fix that problem. That said, some thing that has always bothered me was the HUGE discrepancy between magic and mundane, especially in a fairly high magic world (Eberron, FR and so on) By level 5-7 or so, the party could easily buy a small town. The price of a +1 sword- 2,300 gp or so, exceeds most mundane expenses to a great deal, and yet, these are the most common and cheapest magic items (Permanent ones)

I've started thinking of this, since in the current campaign the party thought to erect some projects, and begin at the item level 8-9 or so, it didn't really pose a problem. I'm thinking on a future campaign, Which takes place mostly in one defined area, where the party also grows, form bonds, may erect businesses, organizations and what not. But if they're adventurers, the value of loot alone would make all expenses quite... negligible.

I got no stellar solution. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter. An idea I thought of today (Obviously not tested), is quite simple: Divide all magic related (And MW) costs by 10, including WBL. So you'd expect a 3rd level PC to have about 300 gold, but a +1 sword costs 230 gold or so. You keep the WBL balance of magic items, but get them more close to base with the mundane, to not create such a huge gap.

BTW, I personally don't like so much how much NPCs Spell casting, Scrolls, and such are that easy to obtain. The prices always looked like a joke to me, compared to the effect gained. I was thinking maybe to cut their prices by less (2? 5?) and thus make them more expensive, and less easily affordable. Your thoughts?

I welcome discussion. I don't think my grasp of such matters is that good, so I wish to hear the Forum's ideas.

[Doc_Maynot]

Another possible idea, is to perchance down WBL as you've mentioned, make Magic Items exceedingly rare and use Pathfinder's Automatic Bonus Progression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/automatic-bonus-progression) system.

[ahenobarbi]

I think rules are ok i that aspect, you just need to let PCs engage in economy at proper scale. Instead of trying to get them to adventure to get 10% of baker's profit so they can afford rent let them adventure so king will give them some cash so they can build their own castle[s] (and let them take / give as a bonus feat Landlord (from Stronghold Builder Guide)).

[noob]

"Now, i know that D&D/ PF economics are horribly broken, and I don't intend to fix that problem. That said, some thing that has always bothered me was the HUGE discrepancy between magic and mundane, especially in a fairly high magic world (Eberron, FR and so on) By level 5-7 or so, the party could easily buy a small town. The price of a +1 sword- 2,300 gp or so, exceeds most mundane expenses to a great deal, and yet, these are the most common and cheapest magic items (Permanent ones)
"
That is false he could buy 10 times all the souls of the inhabitants of the town and enough to feed them for years but he could not buy an house because they did put prices like 1000 gp for a small house of one to three rooms with wooden walls and it is 100,000 gp for one house with 10-12 rooms so you probably can not buy the houses.

[illyahr]

That is false he could but 10 times all the souls of the inhabitants of the town and enough to feed them for years but he could not buy an house because they did put prices like 1000 gp for a small house of one to three rooms with wooden walls and it is 100,000 gp for one house with 10-12 rooms so you probably can not buy the houses.

Which means that the average commoner can't afford to build his own house without adventuring. Random towns must spring up in the wake of adventuring parties. :smallbiggrin:

[ahenobarbi]

Which means that the average commoner can't afford to build his own house without adventuring. Random towns must spring up in the wake of adventuring parties. :smallbiggrin:

Building it requires raw materials worth 1/3rd of value of final products and some skill checks. And raw materials for building a house presumably can be produced using the same method by the commoner (most of them - they probably can craft planks but they'd need to purchase nails). So starting with ~100gp the could build a house.

[illyahr]

Building it requires raw materials worth 1/3rd of value of final products and some skill checks. And raw materials for building a house presumably can be produced using the same method by the commoner (most of them - they probably can craft planks but they'd need to purchase nails). So starting with ~100gp the could build a house.

Nope, it costs 1000 gp for a room. That means a single room, built yourself, costs 333 gp. A level 1 NPC only gets about 75 gp. You would need 5 commoners working together to afford a single room, and that's only if they starve themselves and have no tools to build with.

[Glimbur]

You can also have them be completely separate economies. I once had magic WBL be dropped by monsters in the form of quintessence (pretty much mercury) which the PC's could then use to make magic items easily (no crafting feats needed). Then money is money and magic is magic, and a peasant can't afford even a little magic but you also have a lot of trouble trying to buy magic with money.

[noob]

Quintessence is also the name of a psionic product able to freeze in time what is put inside of it.

[Kol Korran]

Another possible idea, is to perchance down WBL as you've mentioned, make Magic Items exceedingly rare and use Pathfinder's Automatic Bonus Progression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/automatic-bonus-progression) system.
Hmmm... The system is interesting, but you still get about half of your WBL, and so the problem remains.
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"Now, i know that D&D/ PF economics are horribly broken, and I don't intend to fix that problem. That said, some thing that has always bothered me was the HUGE discrepancy between magic and mundane, especially in a fairly high magic world (Eberron, FR and so on) By level 5-7 or so, the party could easily buy a small town. The price of a +1 sword- 2,300 gp or so, exceeds most mundane expenses to a great deal, and yet, these are the most common and cheapest magic items (Permanent ones)
"
That is false he could buy 10 times all the souls of the inhabitants of the town and enough to feed them for years but he could not buy an house because they did put prices like 1000 gp for a small house of one to three rooms with wooden walls and it is 100,000 gp for one house with 10-12 rooms so you probably can not buy the houses.


Which means that the average commoner can't afford to build his own house without adventuring. Random towns must spring up in the wake of adventuring parties. :smallbiggrin:


Building it requires raw materials worth 1/3rd of value of final products and some skill checks. And raw materials for building a house presumably can be produced using the same method by the commoner (most of them - they probably can craft planks but they'd need to purchase nails). So starting with ~100gp the could build a house.
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Hmmm... I don't recall the prices of rooms, houses and such. But that can be amended perhaps. If I recall the NPC listing says how much they have at the moment, but not how much they earn per period, or do they? So it's 75 gp per... how much time? Never took the time to calculate.

All of this doesn't change the core problem I presented- that the huge difference between magical and mundane gear, and the necessity of characters to gain WBL, means that they re super duper rich in mundane items terms. Does cutting MW items & Magical prices, and WBL, to about 1/10the of their current value, while keeping Mundane items the same as they were, have an effect? A bad one? A good one? What do you think?


You can also have them be completely separate economies. I once had magic WBL be dropped by monsters in the form of quintessence (pretty much mercury) which the PC's could then use to make magic items easily (no crafting feats needed). Then money is money and magic is magic, and a peasant can't afford even a little magic but you also have a lot of trouble trying to buy magic with money.


Quintessence is also the name of a psionic product able to freeze in time what is put inside of it.
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Money is an abstract concept, a value per service/ commodity. Why shouldn't Quintessence have a price, and thus can be sold or bought for money?

[Auron3991]

Which means that the average commoner can't afford to build his own house without adventuring. Random towns must spring up in the wake of adventuring parties. :smallbiggrin:

Except D&D tends to assume a feudal society where the average peasant pretty much doesn't own a thing, the local lord owns the land and houses (and whatever they feel like with taxes). Main reason why owning land used to be such a huge thing.

Of course the local farmer infested with chickens may disagree with him.:smalltongue:

[Doc_Maynot]

Hmmm... The system is interesting, but you still get about half of your WBL, and so the problem remains.


Which is why I recommended you do your proposed WBL alteration, and then mix it with the system which allows you to throw magic items out the window by having you advance the table two levels faster than normal.

[ahenobarbi]

I got no stellar solution. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter. An idea I thought of today (Obviously not tested), is quite simple: Divide all magic related (And MW) costs by 10, including WBL. So you'd expect a 3rd level PC to have about 300 gold, but a +1 sword costs 230 gold or so. You keep the WBL balance of magic items, but get them more close to base with the mundane, to not create such a huge gap.

BTW, I personally don't like so much how much NPCs Spell casting, Scrolls, and such are that easy to obtain. The prices always looked like a joke to me, compared to the effect gained. I was thinking maybe to cut their prices by less (2? 5?) and thus make them more expensive, and less easily affordable. Your thoughts?

Those changes make minor magical items affordable to virtually anyone. Which will change a lot about how world works. Potions of cure light wounds (5gp) and blessed bandages (1gp) are now affordable for commoners so expect them to have some. Cheaper amulet of disc (50gp) makes caravanes much more effective(single person can carry ~5000lb, as a light load). And many, many more items become affordable to regular people and reshape socirlety & world.

[BowStreetRunner]

One of the biggest problems with equating the game economy to a medieval economy is that most financial transactions IRL were limited to the nobility and gentry. The rest of the world lived off of a barter economy, and even the nobles and gentry used barter frequently. Both goods and services were exchanged without any coin. Even in the most liberal domain the peasant lived on land owned by the lord in exchange for a portion of his crops, and in many cases the peasants were mere serfs who were actually bound to the lord's estate. When a commoner needed a home he generally had to build it or exchange his goods and services for the help of others in the community in building it. So in many of these instances a monetary value assigned to things like a house were entirely theoretical - no money ever actually was exchanged.

One interesting change that you can make in the game is to keep all the prices the same but simply cut back on the availability of coins. Slaves and most commoners would have few coins at all - at most a few coppers. A few of the skilled commoners would have a handful more coppers and even occasionally silver coins. The gentry would have more but only the most wealthy would ever have an actual gold piece. Only nobility and royalty would have any significant supply of gold coins.

When you make it more difficult for the PCs to quickly and easily convert their loot into coin the high value of these items becomes as much a burden as a boon.

Of course, supply and demand should also inform your prices - in a world where low-level magic items are commonplace there is no reason the price wouldn't go down. Use the base prices in the rules as just that - a base. Then apply a formula depending on supply to reflect the reduced market price for common goods. For instance, in one world where low level items are in good supply all 1st-3rd level magic items might have market prices of 1/3 base, while 4th-6th items are 1/2 base, 7th-9th are 2/3 base, and 10th and higher are full base price.

[Glimbur]

Money is an abstract concept, a value per service/ commodity. Why shouldn't Quintessence have a price, and thus can be sold or bought for money?

Let's think modern day for a second. How much would you pay for diamond? Ok, you can think of a value in dollars. But how much would you get on the open market for an Elixer of Youth? Or a sword that straight-up makes you better at fighting? Or a ring that lets you only sleep for two hours a night, and not need to eat or drink? I'm not saying it is impossible to ever buy magic with money, but there is such a disconnect between the two economies that very rarely would someone trade magic for just money. Kind of like having a billion dollar bill; where could you spend it?

You can argue that is modeled by the fact that even a +1 sword costs over 2000 gold while a common laborer makes several silver pieces a day, but you take it a step further and explain that most people don't have thousands of gold coins just laying around (except dragons). So you can only afford to buy magic with other magic, and rarely does someone have the means to offer you a fair price in money for your magic. Two separate economies. It does end up a little arbitrary, but it also allows you to give the heroes a real dragon's horde without them just buying themselves super powers.