Refluffing guns as crossbows- What do Crossbows become?

[The Vagabond]

As I've recently read about how a Crossbow is very good at piercing armor and such- I've been thinking: How difficult would it be to mechanically re-fluff guns as Crossbows...
And that brings to mind a problem with that- Primarily, I'm not sure just how difficult that is. As it is, what would be the Mechanical affect of turning Firearms into martial weapons, and increasing the price of firearms by a factor of 10?

Finally- What the hell do I re-fluff crossbows as?

[Ssalarn]

Water balloons.


Are you using 3.5 or PF firearms?

[The Vagabond]

Pathfinder Firearms- Sorry, forgot to add the Pathfinder tag.

[FocusWolf413]

Why do you need to refluff crossbows? If you have a different set of gun/crossbows, just get rid of the old ones. It'll clutter your weapon choices.

[Ssalarn]

Are you assuming that the new guns-refluffed-as-crossbows will inherit the misfire chance as well? Because unless I'm playing a dwarf I'd probably prefer sticking with classic crossbows at that point :smalltongue:

I'd be a little hesitant to just hand out weapons that target touch AC to most characters like that. It's.... not great mechanics. Have you considered something like just giving crossbows a Penetration Rating (PR)?

So, for example, a light crossbow has PR 2 and a heavy crossbow has PR 5, meaning that light crossbows ignore the first 2 points of AC from armor, natural armor, or shields, and heavy crossbows ignore the first 5? You could have the weapon's enhancement bonus increase the PR by the same amount, so your +5 heavy crossbow would have PR 10.

It's no more complicated than the mechanics for misfires that accompany firearms, better balanced, and is easier to apply universally if you find other weapons that you believe should get the same benefit. Then just toss Touch AC and misfires out the window and never look back!

[Vhaidara]

Thank you ssalarn. I've been trying to figure out a firearm system I didn't hate for a few weeks. I am stealing that.

[Ssalarn]

Thank you ssalarn. I've been trying to figure out a firearm system I didn't hate for a few weeks. I am stealing that.

Please do! I'm like 90% sure that was an original idea I came up with about 2 years ago when I realized what a hot mess the PF firearm mechanics were, and how poorly balanced they were, even against themselves. I have been playing some version of this game for a long time though, so it's possible I saw it somewhere else and it just camped in my brain until I needed it. Either way, I think it's probably the best mix of real life simulation and balanced game mechanics for crossbows/firearms you're likely to find without a pretty major system rewrite.

[Berenger]

I'd be a little hesitant to just hand out weapons that target touch AC to most characters like that. It's.... not great mechanics.

Those mechanics may or may not be "not great" for game balance.

For their contribution to verisimilitude we need stronger words, e.g. "god-awful nonsense".

[Slithery D]

Armor penetration ratings are a thing in the Shadowrun system, although there armor is for resisting damage, not avoiding getting hit. Still the same concept, though.

[Broken Crown]

I'd be a little hesitant to just hand out weapons that target touch AC to most characters like that. It's.... not great mechanics.

Yes, touch attacks would be unbalancing in the hands of mere martial characters. Clearly, only casters can be trusted with such power.

[Ssalarn]

Yes, touch attacks would be unbalancing in the hands of mere martial characters. Clearly, only casters can be trusted with such power.

Cute. Touch AC is balanced against other assumptions, such as saving throws, SR, low BAB on the offender's part, resistances, immunities, etc. It's the only defense that actually scales down as the game progresses, and it does so assuming that there will be other defenses picking up the slack, which is not the case with firearms. It creates severe inconsistencies in the framework of the game, including undermining traditionally powerful and classic opponents, like dragons.

Of course, if you don't look at the game as a multi-dimensional platform for a roleplaying experience and you subscribe to the "If'n it ain't Tier 1, it cain't be broke, *hyuk hyuk hyuk*" school of unthought, then sure, whatever.

[Broken Crown]

Cute. Touch AC is balanced against other assumptions, such as saving throws, SR, low BAB on the offender's part, resistances, immunities, etc. It's the only defense that actually scales down as the game progresses....

Which might be valid assumptions, if touch spells consistently allowed SR, saving throws, or immunities, and if BAB were relevant compared to AC and natural AC bonuses against the majority of targets. Orb of Force does not, while most Orb of [Whatever] spells still do more damage on a successful save than mundane attacks that allow no save. The fact that touch AC scales down with increasing level just makes things even more advantageous for the low BAB caster compared to the high BAB martial character.

On the whole, allowing greater use of guns, while it does disrupt one of the game's fundamental mechanics, seems to be be more an act of "rebalancing" rather than "unbalancing," given that that particular game mechanic has already been taken out and beaten to death.


Of course, if you don't look at the game as a multi-dimensional platform for a roleplaying experience and you subscribe to the "If'n it ain't Tier 1, it cain't be broke, *hyuk hyuk hyuk*" school of unthought, then sure, whatever.

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to suggest here, but as it sounds unhelpful, irrelevant, and uncomplimentary, I think we're both better off pretending you never said it.

[Kaidinah]

Which might be valid assumptions, if touch spells consistently allowed SR, saving throws, or immunities, and if BAB were relevant compared to AC and natural AC bonuses against the majority of targets. Orb of Force does not, while most Orb of [Whatever] spells still do more damage on a successful save than mundane attacks that allow no save...You are aware that this is a pathfinder thread, and that a lot of the spells you are thinking of do not exist?

On topic:
I for one hate the way PF implemented firearms. They are often anti-fun too. Where as rolling a 1 is just an auto-miss for most characters, the firearm users just lose the ability to use their weapon (possibly even on a 2,3, or 4!). Not just that, but being that accurate and that SAD is just bad design.

I use a penetration rating system myself actually, with both firearms and crossbows. Though I also removed the need for rapid reload (That is rebalancing. Letting them hit touch is unbalancing.) These weapons are already punished by not being allowed to take Multishot, so why also give them a bigger feat burden with dead weight feats like rapid reload?

[Ssalarn]

I for one hate the way PF implemented firearms. They are often anti-fun too. Where as rolling a 1 is just an auto-miss for most characters, the firearm users just lose the ability to use their weapon (possibly even on a 2,3, or 4!). Not just that, but being that accurate and that SAD is just bad design.

I use a penetration rating system myself actually, with both firearms and crossbows. Though I also removed the need for rapid reload (That is rebalancing. Letting them hit touch is unbalancing.) These weapons are already punished by not being allowed to take Multishot, so why also give them a bigger feat burden with dead weight feats like rapid reload?

Yeah, that was one of my big issues with them; not only are they not well balanced within the framework of the system itself, they're not internally consistent either. You've got dwarves, who can take the gunslinger class and grab their racial FCB to only have to deal with misfires on a 1, and then you've got everyone else, who have very few options for eliminating misfires (particularly since the most recent errata removed the various class abilities that let you ignore misfires). You've got your two-handed early firearms that can never be used in a full attack without one specific archetype, and then you've got the wackadoo shenanigans you can get up to with pistols. So on and so forth.

[Broken Crown]

You are aware that this is a pathfinder thread, and that a lot of the spells you are thinking of do not exist?

I was not aware of that. It was not marked as such, but it is clear on rereading.

I don't think this invalidates my argument, but it certainly invalidates my examples, so I won't press the point.

[Extra Anchovies]

Which might be valid assumptions, if touch spells consistently allowed SR, saving throws, or immunities, and if BAB were relevant compared to AC and natural AC bonuses against the majority of targets. Orb of Force does not, while most Orb of [Whatever] spells still do more damage on a successful save than mundane attacks that allow no save. The fact that touch AC scales down with increasing level just makes things even more advantageous for the low BAB caster compared to the high BAB martial character.

It's worth noting that the orbs always deal full damage; the save is against the debuff. That being said, the Orb of X spells are stupidly overpowered. Also, Pathfinder. The second post of the thread asked about the edition, and OP answered it in the third post.


On the whole, allowing greater use of guns, while it does disrupt one of the game's fundamental mechanics, seems to be be more an act of "rebalancing" rather than "unbalancing," given that that particular game mechanic has already been taken out and beaten to death.

On the other hand, it unbalances ranged martials compared to melee martials; in addition to being tactically superior (what with being able to get a full attack every turn), archers (or gunslingers, whatever) would also have higher accuracy and thus more damage output (because they can more easily afford Deadly Aim).

[Trickquestion]

I agree, they aren't balanced mechanically, but that is kind of appropriate from a fluff perspective.

[grarrrg]

..very few options for eliminating misfires (particularly since the most recent errata removed the various class abilities that let you ignore misfires). You've got your two-handed early firearms that can never be used in a full attack without one specific archetype, and then you've got the wackadoo shenanigans you can get up to with pistols. So on and so forth.

I'd like to point out that a good bit of the "wackadoo shenanigans" with pistols has also been errata nerfed.
Double-Barreled weapons can only shoot both barrels as a Standard action now. No more "free double attacks".
Up Close and Deadly can not longer be combined with "Grit cost reducers", so no more free d6's on every single attack.
Signature Deed now applies once per round instead of always (which given that the most abuse-able part of it was the Pistolero, I'm not sure what else they thought they needed to crack down on).