Monster Trainer 3rd Party class

[Vhaidara]

So, I was looking at monsters to throw at my party tonight, and one of them mentioned that it could grant a Monster Trainer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/northwinter-press/monster-trainer) new spells. So I looked at the class. I haven't had time to investigate extensively, but was curious if anyone here had any experience with the class or, having the time, could look it over and give me their esteemed opinions.

[Milo v3]

Iirc, Sslarn wrote a rather detailed review of the class. Here is a link (http://paizo.com/products/btpy98z2?Mystical-Kingdom-of-Monsters).

[Extra Anchovies]

It looks like something that would require a lot of coordination with the DM, and a lot of extra work on the DM's part to make sure they don't send at the party anything they could capture that they aren't supposed to capture.

From a quick look through the abilities, it looks like a full-caster (who can cast in light armor, no less) with a fairly strong spell list and solid chassis, which is already concerning, but then it also has some good noncasting class features. Some of those trainer perks are insane for feat-equivalents. Fast movement (+10 feet is ostensibly worth two feats), mettle, uncanny dodge, an animal companion (normally worth two feats), a familiar (normally worth two feats) - yowza. And then Spell Familiarity makes the restriction that you need a monster out to cast its spells basically a non-issue, because you can pick the stuff you'll need regularly (fly, dispel magic, true seeing) and always have access to them.

If a player asked for this in one of my games, I'd say no unless I was planning from the start for one or more of the players to take levels in it. It's the sort of class that you build a game around, which is annoying (and can make other characters feel sidelined; if the monster trainer needs to go catch a new monster, suddenly you've got a sidequest that only one party member cares about).

Also, I might just be missing something, but there's nothing saying that the monsters are actually required to obey your directions. Whoops.

[Ssalarn]

The monsters are more than required to obey your directions, you have a shared action pool with them. Since the captured monster can't have a CR greater than your hit dice, there shouldn't be many instances of players catching monsters they're not "supposed" to. The class is vastly more balanced than the summoner, and is also really fun and dynamic to play.

[Extra Anchovies]

The monsters are more than required to obey your directions, you have a shared action pool with them.

Having a shared action pool doesn't mean that the trainer controls them, though.


Unlike a Wizard’s familiar or a Druid’s animal companion, the trainer’s monster does not gain its own actions during combat. When first called into battle, the monster appears within 10 ft. of its trainer. The monster can then either finish its move action less the distance already moved by its trainer or use any other actions its trainer still has available for the round. On subsequent rounds, the trainer must use his own actions to direct his monster on a one-for-one basis.
The first bolded sentence explicitly gives the monster full control over its actions on the turn in which it is called; it could even attack the trainer, because there's no prohibition on that. The second bolded sentence lets the trainer "direct" the monster, but there's nothing that requires the monster to obey these "directions". The trainer could spend a move action to tell their monster to move, but the monster isn't forced to do so (but they aren't able to do anything if they choose not to). The only thing that you are guaranteed to be able to do with your monster is to cast spells through it, because you still take the action to cast the spell even if the spell's point of origin is the monster.

Sure, that's almost certainly not how it's supposed to work, and I certainly wouldn't run it like that (if I was ever somehow convinced and/or blackmailed to let one of my players take this class, that is), but it still could be written much more clearly.

ETA: After reading into the rules on companions further, the comparison to familiars and animal companions sorta implies that monsters follow the same rules for control. Here's what we have on that topic, from Ultimate Campaign (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar#TOC-Controlling-Companions-Familiars-and-Followers):

Nonsentient Companions: a nonsentient companion (one with animal-level intelligence) is loyal to you in the way a well-trained dog is—the creature is conditioned to obey your commands, but its behavior is limited by its intelligence and it can't make altruistic moral decisions—such as nobly sacrificing itself to save another. Animal companions, cavalier mounts, and purchased creatures (such as common horses and guard dogs) fall into this category. In general they're GM-controlled companions. You can direct them using the Handle Animal skill, but their specific behavior is up to the GM.

Sentient Companions: a sentient companion (a creature that can understand language and has an Intelligence score of at least 3) is considered your ally and obeys your suggestions and orders to the best of its ability. It won't necessarily blindly follow a suicidal order, but it has your interests at heart and does what it can to keep you alive. Paladin bonded mounts, familiars, and cohorts fall into this category, and are usually player-controlled companions.
Following those rules (which isn't necessarily something we're supposed to be doing; it's a risky extrapolation on my part but it's all we've got to go on), Int 1 and 2 companions are GM-controlled (and you have to rank Handle Animal for them to listen to you), while Int 3+ companions generally try to do what you tell them to and are "usually player-controlled", which is very clear and helpful.
On the topic of the writing, how about this:

When casting a spell in this way, the trainer’s monster draws any attacks of opportunity, not the trainer himself. The trainer can still cast defensively, and must still make a concentration check if damaged while casting as though he were hit.As written, the monster provokes, but a concentration check is only forced when the trainer is hit (it would need to say "if the monster is damaged" instead of "if damaged" to force concentration checks when the monster is hit). AoOs can't stop your spells, only readied attacks can. Feel free to cast in melee all you want.

Also:

Starting at 4th level, a monster trainer gains one trainer perk. He gains an additional trainer perk at 19th level and every 2 levels of trainer attained in between. (link) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/northwinter-press/trainer-perks)

At 4th level, 19th level and every 4 levels between, the trainer gains a perk that he can use whenever he has any monster active.(link) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/northwinter-press/monster-trainer#TOC-Trackless-Step-Ex-)
One of these texts is correct regarding how often they're gained. The table indicates the latter, but I believe the "text over table" rule carried over to Pathfinder. Does anyone with the book want to clear this up?

And then there's the issue of "at 4th level, 19th level, and every 4th levels in between", which is some really ugly wording that causes an important rules ambiguity. For the "every 4 levels in between", do you count up (gaining them at 4/8/12/16/19) or down (gaining them at 4/7/11/15/19)?

Other than that the class is at least competently written, but it's still got either too strong of a chassis (uncanny dodge, mettle, light armor, average BAB, 6+Int skills, d8 HD, a large suite of abilities and senses gained from monsters) for its casting (9th-level spells, cast in light armor) or too much casting for its chassis.


The class is vastly more balanced than the summoner

"More balanced than the Summoner" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. And I wouldn't say it's anywhere near "vastly more balanced"; sure, it's got a lower power floor, but it's also got a higher power ceiling. It's still an arcane full caster (one who can cast in armor), and it's still got a lot of the standard wizard tricks (plus some good spells from other lists, like the Cure chain) on its class list.


and is also really fun and dynamic to play.

You probably have a fair point here. Having to switch up the available spells known is an interesting mechanic.

[Milo v3]

Looking at the substitute rules for if you capture a monster not in the book.... Some just do not work... ugh. Capture a succubus, and you get a "succubus" who shoots out spores and can't shapeshift?

[Psyren]

I'm concerned about Capture monster. It's a cantrip, so the save DC is 10+Cha, i.e. unlikely to be higher than 13 or 14, and you get to eat a nice -5 to that if the monster is half-health or more. You get no boosts to this number aside from Cha until 9th-level, when you get a paltry +2 DC (i.e. it becomes equivalent to a 2nd-level spell instead of a cantrip.) It's also universal, which limits your options for boosting it, and it's also a spell so even lacking components it provokes.

For such a central ability to the class it should be 10 + 1/2HD + Cha to start with, and it should be supernatural. This also removes the SR issue.

[Milo v3]

I'm concerned about Capture monster. It's a cantrip, so the save DC is 10+Cha, i.e. unlikely to be higher than 13 or 14, and you get to eat a nice -5 to that if the monster is half-health or more. You get no boosts to this number aside from Cha until 9th-level, when you get a paltry +2 DC (i.e. it becomes equivalent to a 2nd-level spell instead of a cantrip.) It's also universal, which limits your options for boosting it, and it's also a spell so even lacking components it provokes.

For such a central ability to the class it should be 10 + 1/2HD + Cha to start with, and it should be supernatural. This also removes the SR issue.

I guess they wanted to make sure people don't just use it at the start of every fight and were too cautious?

[Vhaidara]

Well, the penalty is to keep the pokemon vibe. You have to damage it first, after all.

Also, it keeps you from just spamming it every round of the fight. If you want a real chance, you have to beat it up and debuff it a lot.

[Segev]

It seems to me that this would be better done as an archetype of the Summoner. Something that let the Eidolon have multiple forms based on monsters "captured" or otherwise encountered and bested.

[kglusing]

Hi guys!

First, thank you so much for creating this thread about the monster trainer. :) It's cool to see it getting more traction now that I've added it to d20PFSRD.

I can't comment on everything brought up here, but I'll see what I can help with and be an active addition to the thread as best I'm able. First things first


Looking at the substitute rules for if you capture a monster not in the book.... Some just do not work... ugh. Capture a succubus, and you get a "succubus" who shoots out spores and can't shapeshift?Yes, some of those aren't the best. As I note in that post (and in the PDF/book), they are intended as quick alternatives until I can get enough to make the next book/content. Once I produce something for them, those lists can be ignored or used to add variety to the options for the monster. I'll tell you what, though. For the succubus, use the following. If there are any others with an immediate request for spell lists, I'm always willing to add them on the Mystical: Kingdom of Monsters Facebook Page. (https://www.facebook.com/mysticalkom?_rdr=p)

1 - charm person, detect good
2 - alter self, detect thoughts
3 - suggestion, tongues, vampiric touch
4 - charm monster
5 - damnation stride
6 - mass suggestion
7 - ethereal jaunt
8 - frightful aspect, sympathy
9 - power word kill


It looks like something that would require a lot of coordination with the DM, and a lot of extra work on the DM's part to make sure they don't send at the party anything they could capture that they aren't supposed to capture.Any qualifying monster you fight is a potential candidate (the class explains that some creatures don't qualify as monsters because their essence is more complex and beyond reach of the trainer), so you don't have to create opportunities where there are none. The class works fine with as few as 2 monsters (although a lot of people who play are happy to find more), one to call upon for battle and another from which to draw spell familiarity. Also, with the alternative spells lists mentioned above already (here's the link (https://mysticalkom.wordpress.com/2015/06/05/bestiary-equivalent-monsters/) in case you don't want to navigate for it), you also don't have to try to find specific monsters that fit the game/module.

[Vhaidara]

And this is why I enjoy 3pp: they are so communicative.

I'm actually thinking I might try to get a solo PbP game going with this. It's surprisingly fitting with one of my old freeform characters, a witch who drew her power from animals she bound to her service.

[kglusing]

It seems to me that this would be better done as an archetype of the Summoner. Something that let the Eidolon have multiple forms based on monsters "captured" or otherwise encountered and bested.Actually, the PDF/Book has information on how to play a summoner with this option as well as how to give the trainer summoner-like abilities. Also introduces the anon form, which is like a lesser winged eidolon that is neither serpentine nor has legs.

[Psyren]

Well, the penalty is to keep the pokemon vibe. You have to damage it first, after all.

Also, it keeps you from just spamming it every round of the fight. If you want a real chance, you have to beat it up and debuff it a lot.

I get why the penalty is there but even without that, the chance of failure seems pretty high because the DC doesn't scale (as far as I can see.) Plus provoking, being subject to SR etc.

[Vhaidara]

I would probably take a few steps for the DC. First amog them being that the Favored enemy bonus would apply to your spell save DCs, which I think would be pretty cool.

[kglusing]

I get why the penalty is there but even without that, the chance of failure seems pretty high because the DC doesn't scale (as far as I can see.) Plus provoking, being subject to SR etc.

To help improve your ability to capture monsters, you can take spell focus, greater spell focus, spell penetration, greater spell penetration, and heighten spell. I figured with so many ways to increase the DC of a spell saving throw, there was little need to add something else, but I could get behind a way to add favored enemy to saving throws (is that already something for hunters?) I might consider it for an option later. Thanks!

[Vhaidara]

First, is Universal even a legal choice for Spell Focus?

Second, if it is, you are spending a feat for +1 DC on a single ability. Compare that to something like Ability Focus that you could take if it was an at will sla, which is +2.

Also, this feels more like a gish than a focused caster. Otherwise why does it have the 3/4 bab and d8 HD? And if I'm fishing, I usually will want to invest feats into my combat an focus on utility spells. That doesn't work if I have to invest half a dozen feats (on a class with no bonus feats) in achieving my baseline functions.

[kglusing]

... this feels more like a gish than a focused caster. Otherwise why does it have the 3/4 bab and d8 HD? And if I'm fishing, I usually will want to invest feats into my combat an focus on utility spells. That doesn't work if I have to invest half a dozen feats (on a class with no bonus feats) in achieving my baseline functions.If it's compared to anything, it should be druid because there are several ways to play the character but you have to choose on which to focus. There are also archetypes (particularly the scout) that let you focus more on that kind of build. As to a hypothetical feat tax, it works better in play (speaking both from personal experience and with reponses from others who have).

[Psyren]

First, is Universal even a legal choice for Spell Focus?

As written, no it is not:


Choose a school of magic. Any spells you cast of that school are more difficult to resist.

Benefit: Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against spells from the school of magic you select.


A small number of spells (arcane mark, limited wish, permanency, prestidigitation, and wish) are universal, belonging to no school.

Universal means "no school" rather than being a school of its own.

Not to mention "you're free to spend 5 feats to help your signature class feature approach basic usability" doesn't sound like a particularly good approach either.

[kglusing]

Technically even without allowing spell focus (universal), heighten spell is only one feat, and anything else holds the same requirement it would for a sorcerer; assuming you want to focus heavily on capturing monsters over utilizing them a specific way in combat. But, I can see where the RAW interpretation trips some up, so it's easy enough to include the suggested feat from above that lets you add your favored enemy bonus to spell save DCs and just not allow it to stack with other feat bonuses for balance. I would probably keep it a non-class specific feat so rangers can take it also.

[Extra Anchovies]

Hi guys!

Hi! I love it when someone starts a thread about some third-party thing and then the developer shows up.

Since you're the class's designer, would you care to comment on the ambiguities surrounding when Trainer Perks are learned? I'll repost it below for convenience


Starting at 4th level, a monster trainer gains one trainer perk. He gains an additional trainer perk at 19th level and every 2 levels of trainer attained in between. (link) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/northwinter-press/trainer-perks)

At 4th level, 19th level and every 4 levels between, the trainer gains a perk that he can use whenever he has any monster active.(link) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/northwinter-press/monster-trainer#TOC-Trackless-Step-Ex-)

One of these texts is correct regarding how often they're gained. The table indicates the latter, but I believe the "text over table" rule carried over to Pathfinder. Does anyone with the book want to clear this up?

And then there's the issue of "at 4th level, 19th level, and every 4th levels in between", which is some really ugly wording that causes an important rules ambiguity. For the "every 4 levels in between", do you count up (gaining them at 4/8/12/16/19) or down (gaining them at 4/7/11/15/19)?


I'm concerned about Capture monster. It's a cantrip, so the save DC is 10+Cha, i.e. unlikely to be higher than 13 or 14, and you get to eat a nice -5 to that if the monster is half-health or more. You get no boosts to this number aside from Cha until 9th-level, when you get a paltry +2 DC (i.e. it becomes equivalent to a 2nd-level spell instead of a cantrip.) It's also universal, which limits your options for boosting it, and it's also a spell so even lacking components it provokes.

For such a central ability to the class it should be 10 + 1/2HD + Cha to start with, and it should be supernatural. This also removes the SR issue.

Adding a bit that allows unconscious creatures no save would fix this without making it a spammable save-or-lose, but is kind of counter to the spirit of pokemon.

[kglusing]

Hi! I love it when someone starts a thread about some third-party thing and then the developer shows up.

Since you're the class's designer, would you care to comment on the ambiguities surrounding when Trainer Perks are learned? I'll repost it below for convenience...

Hmm I'll have to look at the page when I'm home (on my phone atm) but it should match the by level chart, which off the top of my head is 4, 8, 12, 16, and 19. I'm just as surprised as you by the mix up. Thanks for spotting it and I'll make the change when I get a minute.

The strange wording that was mentioned above was to keep those abilities from overwhelming L20 alongside the capstone. There's a base class with similar (if not identical) wording that I drew from, so it both made sense to me and stayed with established language by pathfinder/paizo.

[kglusing]

Okay, I found what you were talking about (after seeing and learning how to use the links you posted, ha). It is fixed now, as is the wording itself on the page.

[Milo v3]

Yes, some of those aren't the best. As I note in that post (and in the PDF/book), they are intended as quick alternatives until I can get enough to make the next book/content. Once I produce something for them, those lists can be ignored or used to add variety to the options for the monster. I'll tell you what, though. For the succubus, use the following. If there are any others with an immediate request for spell lists, I'm always willing to add them on the Mystical: Kingdom of Monsters Facebook Page. (https://www.facebook.com/mysticalkom?_rdr=p)

1 - charm person, detect good
2 - alter self, detect thoughts
3 - suggestion, tongues, vampiric touch
4 - charm monster
5 - damnation stride
6 - mass suggestion
7 - ethereal jaunt
8 - frightful aspect, sympathy
9 - power word kill
The spell list wasn't the issue, with spell lists you can make them quickly if you capture them, and their very likely to be very unique so it's understandable for them to not always match the suggested quick fix. It's more that the actual stats for the monsters don't match, if I captured a succubus, to loses everything that would make it an iconic succubus like shapeshifting, and suddenly gains.... spore creation. I think you should have reinforced that not all creatures are monsters, rather than trying to give a conversion list that often doesn't work.

Also, how does that feat that replaces your animal companion with a magical beast work? You haven't given any allowed magical companion stats.

[Ssalarn]

Also, how does that feat that replaces your animal companion with a magical beast work? You haven't given any allowed magical companion stats.
The same way it works for the other effects in the game that treat your animal companion as a magical beast, like the Celestial Servant and Divine Bond abilities- you use the exact same stats, but your animal companion is treated as a magical beast, not an animal, when determining what spells and effects affect it.

There's a FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gh#v5748eaic9rd5) on Celestial Servant that sets the precedence.

[Milo v3]

The same way it works for the other effects in the game that treat your animal companion as a magical beast, like the Celestial Servant and Divine Bond abilities- you use the exact same stats, but your animal companion is treated as a magical beast, not an animal, when determining what spells and effects affect it.

There's a FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gh#v5748eaic9rd5) on Celestial Servant that sets the precedence.

I thought that initially from a glance, but reading it, that isn't how it works.
This the feat says "Subtract the chosen creature’s Challenge Rating (CR, minimum 1) from your effective Druid level to determine when you can gain it as a companion"

But animal companions do not have CR. So ... You just pick any magical beast of your choice? Rather than using anything like the animal companion mechanics?

[Ssalarn]

I thought that initially from a glance, but reading it, that isn't how it works.
This the feat says "Subtract the chosen creature’s Challenge Rating (CR, minimum 1) from your effective Druid level to determine when you can gain it as a companion"

But animal companions do not have CR. So ... You just pick any magical beast of your choice? Rather than using anything like the animal companion mechanics?

That... would appear to be correct.

[kglusing]

The spell list wasn't the issue, with spell lists you can make them quickly if you capture them, and their very likely to be very unique so it's understandable for them to not always match the suggested quick fix. It's more that the actual stats for the monsters don't match, if I captured a succubus, to loses everything that would make it an iconic succubus like shapeshifting, and suddenly gains.... spore creation. I think you should have reinforced that not all creatures are monsters, rather than trying to give a conversion list that often doesn't work.

Also, how does that feat that replaces your animal companion with a magical beast work? You haven't given any allowed magical companion stats.I don't get what you mean by changing its stats. The succubus is still a succubus, it just grants you those spells as a trainer. It doesn't suddenly become a vrock for the purpose of gameplay. It can still use its spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, etc. Maybe there's a miscommunication here I'm not picking up on.

As to the feat, yes, you find a magical beast and that is now your companion, CR permitting. If you were to use the feat at 7th level to gain a Leucrotta (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/leucrotta), you would count as a 2nd level druid and it would gain 2 feats, 1 bonus trick (unless its Int is 3+), share spells, and link. It would gain +2 natural armor and +1 str/dex next level.

[Milo v3]

I don't get what you mean by changing its stats. The succubus is still a succubus, it just grants you those spells as a trainer. It doesn't suddenly become a vrock for the purpose of gameplay. It can still use its spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, etc. Maybe there's a miscommunication here I'm not picking up on.
I thought your meant to use the associated monster stats, otherwise there's no point remaking the creatures like vrock for the book and you'd have just listed their spell lists.


As to the feat, yes, you find a magical beast and that is now your companion, CR permitting. If you were to use the feat at 7th level to gain a Leucrotta (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/leucrotta), you would count as a 2nd level druid and it would gain 3d8 (plus x3 Con modifier, as usual), +2 base attack, 3/3/1 saves, 3 skills, 2 feats, 1 bonus trick (unless its Int is 3+), share spells, and link.
why go back to 3.5e style animal companions rather than using PF style animal companions for it?

[kglusing]

I thought your meant to use the associated monster stats, otherwise there's no point remaking the creatures like vrock for the book and you'd have just listed their spell lists.


why go back to 3.5e style animal companions rather than using PF style animal companions for it?

As to the stats, most of the monsters have had their CR in the book adjusted in some way so that they're different from those previously presented. Any that didn't are there more for easy reference (1 book instead of 2).

[Extra Anchovies]

I don't get what you mean by changing its stats. The succubus is still a succubus, it just grants you those spells as a trainer. It doesn't suddenly become a vrock for the purpose of gameplay. It can still use its spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, etc. Maybe there's a miscommunication here I'm not picking up on.

The confusion is that the blog post doesn't specify that the only thing that is replaced is the spell list.


As to the feat, yes, you find a magical beast and that is now your companion, CR permitting. If you were to use the feat at 7th level to gain a Leucrotta (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/leucrotta), you would count as a 2nd level druid and it would gain 3d8 (plus x3 Con modifier, as usual), +2 base attack, 3/3/1 saves, 3 skills, 2 feats, 1 bonus trick (unless its Int is 3+), share spells, and link.

So you're taking a magical beast, but adding animal hit dice to it? Thats... very clunky, to say the least. Also it's compatible with Boon Companion, which isn't a good thing.

[kglusing]

No, sorry. That was me not reading my own stuff before typing a reply in this case. I really shouldn't juggle things like posting about this while tired. I'm going to rest and think on this for tomorrow, so sorry about being suddenly very confusing.

[Harmelyo]

Just got a question regarding the synergy between Monster Growth (Ex) and any Demon or Devil. Note: I have just read the d20pfsrd site.
I can't find any limitation or specific to the growing of your monster.
So let's imagine I grab a lemure at lvl 2. When I reach lvl 3, I can upgrade it. What, except sound reasoning, prohibit me from turning it into a Pitfiend? I could understand that you have to climb the ladder by going through all available demons but even... I could by lvl 8 with the right race expect to get a pitfiend.
I know RAI it is silly but RAW this seems to be absolutely legal as the catching limit is only on the spell to grab the monster.


Also is this system supposed to work on Angels, Archons? There is no mention of it on the Monster Growth (Ex) description.

[kglusing]

Good morning everybody! Okay, I have my coffee and am relatively bright-eyed. First, the monstrous bond feat. For those without the book, it is:

Monstrous Bond
You have picked up an unusual animal companion or mount.
Prerequisite: Ability to have an animal companion.
Benefit: You can now gain a magical beast as your animal companion. Subtract the chosen creature’s Challenge Rating (CR, minimum 1) from your effective Druid level to determine when you can gain it as a companion (once your effective level with that creature is 1 or more) and when it starts gaining additional bonuses. Magical beast companions with an Intelligence score of 3 or more do not gain tricks. This feat does not allow you to apply this benefit to an already bonded creature such as a familiar or eidolon.

When you take this feat, you are making a conscious effort to change how you use your animal companion (by instead finding a magical beast). You get one (with a CR equal to your level -1 at the time of acquisition). Now, as you level up, you are effectively a druid with that companion in mind. It gains the bonuses as listed in the animal companion table in the Pathfinder RPG CRB (and on the site). This means that when you are effectively level 3, that magical beast suddenly gains +2 natural armor, +1 Str/Dex, and another bonus trick (in addition to the 1 you got when you attained it), but only if that magical beast's Int score is less than 3. In effect, you are ignoring anything to do with the animal progression at this point (contrast to my post yesterday, sorry again) and tacking on the companion bonuses to an otherwise static magical beast. Yes, this means that eventually its hit points aren't going to hold up, but the goal is for you to then seek out something stronger vs continuing to buff the one you have. It makes you, as a druid or another companion-type character, into a pseudo monster trainer.


Just got a question regarding the synergy between Monster Growth (Ex) and any Demon or Devil. Note: I have just read the d20pfsrd site.
I can't find any limitation or specific to the growing of your monster.
So let's imagine I grab a lemure at lvl 2. When I reach lvl 3, I can upgrade it. What, except sound reasoning, prohibit me from turning it into a Pitfiend? I could understand that you have to climb the ladder by going through all available demons but even... I could by lvl 8 with the right race expect to get a pitfiend.
I know RAI it is silly but RAW this seems to be absolutely legal as the catching limit is only on the spell to grab the monster.You cannot capture or call upon monsters with a CR greater than your own (their essence is too complex for the trainer to manipulate). RAW, you could make that monster a pit fiend, but then you wouldn't be able to call upon it until level 20. You could still access its spells with spell familiarity, however.


Also is this system supposed to work on Angels, Archons? There is no mention of it on the Monster Growth (Ex) description.It works, but not in the same way because they are not demons or devils. Until some other alternative is defined, every angel and archon is an individual creature that does not benefit directly from monster growth. If you have a friend who is a breeder (or you are one yourself), you might be able to increase their abilities through templates or the advanced growth trait of that archetype.

[Milo v3]

Good morning everybody! Okay, I have my coffee and am relatively bright-eyed. First, the monstrous bond feat. For those without the book, it is:

Monstrous Bond
You have picked up an unusual animal companion or mount.
Prerequisite: Ability to have an animal companion.
Benefit: You can now gain a magical beast as your animal companion. Subtract the chosen creature’s Challenge Rating (CR, minimum 1) from your effective Druid level to determine when you can gain it as a companion (once your effective level with that creature is 1 or more) and when it starts gaining additional bonuses. Magical beast companions with an Intelligence score of 3 or more do not gain tricks. This feat does not allow you to apply this benefit to an already bonded creature such as a familiar or eidolon.

When you take this feat, you are making a conscious effort to change how you use your animal companion (by instead finding a magical beast). You get one (with a CR equal to your level -1 at the time of acquisition). Now, as you level up, you are effectively a druid with that companion in mind. It gains the bonuses as listed in the animal companion table in the Pathfinder RPG CRB (and on the site). This means that when you are effectively level 3, that magical beast suddenly gains +2 natural armor, +1 Str/Dex, and another bonus trick (in addition to the 1 you got when you attained it), but only if that magical beast's Int score is less than 3. In effect, you are ignoring anything to do with the animal progression at this point (contrast to my post yesterday, sorry again) and tacking on the companion bonuses to an otherwise static magical beast. Yes, this means that eventually its hit points aren't going to hold up, but the goal is for you to then seek out something stronger vs continuing to buff the one you have. It makes you, as a druid or another companion-type character, into a pseudo monster trainer.
Why did you decide for it to be like 3.5e style animal companions rather than PF style animal companions?

[kglusing]

Why did you decide for it to be like 3.5e style animal companions rather than PF style animal companions?Because it's meant to be a quick feat to apply to a magical beast, not an entire subsystem. I may do that eventually, but for now, it allows a druid to easily have a bulette, owlbear, or razor boar companion, in addition to the multitude of other options. It's also still far simpler than the 3.5 method since you're only adding on the basic bonuses (no fiddling with HP, saves, etc).

On an unrelated note, I can't seem to change my avatar and I'd like to. This one just seems so angry and I'd hate to make people feel like I'm angry all the time :)

[Psyren]

On an unrelated note, I can't seem to change my avatar and I'd like to. This one just seems so angry and I'd hate to make people feel like I'm angry all the time :)

Settings in the very top-right corner of your screen -> General Settings on the left side -> scroll all the way down to "Order of the Stick Avatar." You can also upload a custom avatar, but mobile users can only see the Order of the Stick one so you may want to change that as well.

[Harmelyo]

Good morning everybody! Okay, I have my coffee and am relatively bright-eyed. First, the monstrous bond feat. For those without the book, it is:

Monstrous Bond
You have picked up an unusual animal companion or mount.
Prerequisite: Ability to have an animal companion.
Benefit: You can now gain a magical beast as your animal companion. Subtract the chosen creature’s Challenge Rating (CR, minimum 1) from your effective Druid level to determine when you can gain it as a companion (once your effective level with that creature is 1 or more) and when it starts gaining additional bonuses. Magical beast companions with an Intelligence score of 3 or more do not gain tricks. This feat does not allow you to apply this benefit to an already bonded creature such as a familiar or eidolon.

When you take this feat, you are making a conscious effort to change how you use your animal companion (by instead finding a magical beast). You get one (with a CR equal to your level -1 at the time of acquisition). Now, as you level up, you are effectively a druid with that companion in mind. It gains the bonuses as listed in the animal companion table in the Pathfinder RPG CRB (and on the site). This means that when you are effectively level 3, that magical beast suddenly gains +2 natural armor, +1 Str/Dex, and another bonus trick (in addition to the 1 you got when you attained it), but only if that magical beast's Int score is less than 3. In effect, you are ignoring anything to do with the animal progression at this point (contrast to my post yesterday, sorry again) and tacking on the companion bonuses to an otherwise static magical beast. Yes, this means that eventually its hit points aren't going to hold up, but the goal is for you to then seek out something stronger vs continuing to buff the one you have. It makes you, as a druid or another companion-type character, into a pseudo monster trainer.

You cannot capture or call upon monsters with a CR greater than your own (their essence is too complex for the trainer to manipulate). RAW, you could make that monster a pit fiend, but then you wouldn't be able to call upon it until level 20. You could still access its spells with spell familiarity, however.

It works, but not in the same way because they are not demons or devils. Until some other alternative is defined, every angel and archon is an individual creature that does not benefit directly from monster growth. If you have a friend who is a breeder (or you are one yourself), you might be able to increase their abilities through templates or the advanced growth trait of that archetype.

Thank you for the information. I just found the line I was missing. Thanks to your explanation, it all seems more balanced.

[kglusing]

Thank you for the information. I just found the line I was missing. Thanks to your explanation, it all seems more balanced.Always happy to field questions. I appreciate the enthusiasm everybody has shown for the class. :)