Sims are people too?

[kalos72]

So my campaign is Forgotten Realms/Neverwinter 3.5/all books mostly but follows a similar story line to the 4E version.

My group will be using Sim/Ice Assassin alot initially as they rebuild the city, its population and overall power base. We were assuming that once more conventional armies and craftsmen were recruited that we would ween off the Sim based stuff for the more "real" versions.

But then of the group asked, why wouldn't a Sim make a good citizen as well?

I mean a Sim of a fine armor smith has the same skills as the "human", is for the most part a typical human to most people, why not let them stay on as citizens? They are permanent right so no worries there. Totally loyal...

Only downsides really are lack of original memories and facial features. But if your doing one copy of each specific craftsmen, there should be anything weird there. All of them would have some semblance of the originals memories OR maybe you can mind wipe them and let them start anew?

And that conversation went finally to whole towns of them....once we are done with them as "armies" have them settle there own town close by?

[Urpriest]

One possible issue: simulacra can't improve. Your craftsmen will only ever know how to make the things the originals knew.

[Vaz]

Sims of people that aren't of your power level or greater are a wasted resource. If you absolutely intend to do it for your Commoner 1's, Binding/allying a mirror mephit gives you a CL8 simulacrum, so 16HD max. Fill your spells slots with that and each day you're getting maybe 30 Sims a day, which you can use for various purposes.

[kalos72]

Well, if the original is an Armor smith for example, he knows how to make all armor right? So nothing "new" to learn there right?

As for it being a waste of resources, getting 100 different master craftsmen in your city in a day isn't really a waste IMHO. And most master craftsmen aren't just Commoners...

Also, what do you think about the idea of Sim' making their own community or being part of a larger mixed "race" one like Neverwinter?

At what point do Sim's become a "race'?

[Sagetim]

Well, if the original is an Armor smith for example, he knows how to make all armor right? So nothing "new" to learn there right?


No. I'm not sure about Ice Assassins, but for those...don't they try to highlander their living counterpart too? Built in kill mode is a bad idea for citizens. Also 9th level spell vs 7th level spell.

Simulacrums (unless you have some fancy greater version or something that I don't know about) have half the hit dice of the thing they are a copy of. So while a level 1 master smith simulacrum isn't getting any lower hit die, it's skill bonus is also going to be stuck at whatever it is forever. Let's assume the master smith has 12 int, maybe some +1's to his mentals for middle age? Anyway, 12 int, 4 ranks, +3 from skill focus, and +2 from masterwork tools lets this master smith take 10 to hit a dc 20 on his skill checks.

Looking at the DC's for weapons and armor, 20 is pretty much the limit of what you need. You'll need more for higher strength mod mighty bows, but most weapons have a flat dc of 12, 15, or 18, and a masterwork flat dc of 20. Armors have a dc of 10+AC mod and a flat masterwork dc of 20. So while this level 1 simulacrum in question could potentially have two skill focus feats (for, say, weapons and armor), they wouldn't be very fast at their job. Making a suit of masterwork full plate, for example, would take about a year. Making a masterwork weapon would take 8 weeks for the masterwork component, plus at least 1 more week for the normal component (or more, for the expensive weapons). By comparison, living crafters can learn how to craft better. That example also assumes that you're securing masterwork tools for each simulacrum.

So, what's this mean? Well, living crafters can get better over time, and potentially hit a point where they can raise the dc to craft faster and take 10 to do so. An alternative to that is making simulacrums of yourself, having invested in various crafts to abuse fabricate or what have you. If I recall right, it copies your ability scores as they are, rather than 'as they were at that level' and cuts your total levels in half. So take a level 18 wizard, simulacrum him, and you now have a level 9 wizard. Admittedly, he's a level 9 wizard that can never go higher in level, and is limited in his build options to things that exist within your level 18 build. But he's still a level 9 wizard. He can cast fabricate. So as long as he can hit the craft dc's by taking 10, he can use fabricate to speed up the crafting process for things immensely. For larger items he may only be fabricating parts, but given that he's based on a level 18 wizard, he probably has at least enough int to get 2 5th level spells per day (along with all his lower level spells per day). The downside to this tactic with wizards is that you're going to need to either share your spellbook with your simulacrums so they can prep spells, or you're going to need to make more copies of your spellbook so that each simulacrum can has the spells it needs for a given day...or you can do the dastardly thing and invest in spell mastery like some kind of weirdo. Well, I wouldn't call it a weirdo, but I imagine many of the TO builders around here would boo and hiss and proclaim the need for this that or the other alternate class feature.


Anyway....simulacrums don't have any personal drive. So once the person controlling them dies, they do one of a few things: Go inert (not unmagical, just...stand there not doing anything) or continue following their last order. They do not have a will of their own. So while some barons and despots would call that the best citizen ever...I don't think I would.

[kalos72]

Not sure I follow your numbers there...but again your assuming the original is only a level 2 master craftsmen no? Not likely the case for level based NPC's right? Can you break that down some more for me please?

I am also not sure your depiction of a sim as some mindless heartless robot like creature is accurate. Wouldn't the same personality, alignment maybe even of the original carry through? Ability to improve is different then desire.

As for the last orders should the PC die, last orders "Live your life in Neverwinter as you like until I need you again" type of line solves that, albeit a simple example of the command of course.

Also, if you took an IA of a dead craftsmen or one from another plane/sphere well then... :)

[Flickerdart]

Not sure I follow your numbers there...but again your assuming the original is only a level 2 master craftsmen no? Not likely the case for level based NPC's right? Can you break that down some more for me please?
Why would you assume that the original is higher level? The vast majority of the world is ultra low level.

[Inevitability]

One possible issue: simulacra can't improve. Your craftsmen will only ever know how to make the things the originals knew.

Hm... I wonder if Mindrape would override that?

And yes, whenever someone asks a question on these forums my first thought is: 'how would mindrape help here?'

[kalos72]

Why would you assume that the original is higher level? The vast majority of the world is ultra low level.

My understanding could be off here...please enlighten me if necessary but...

Since we almost never know skills an NPC takes as he advances, in order for a MASTER craftsmen to get the skills points needed to hit those DC's or to cut the time down as was discussed earlier, the only option is additional class levels. A Level 1 or 2 fighter, for example, will NEVER be a Master Craftsmen with his 12-14 skill points. Especially since most people with 2 levels are not going to spend every level in a craft.

Now if you suggest using the Expert class even your still gonna need either a crazy high INT or a good few bonus levels for 20+ skill check no?

Remember we are talking about making master craft quality items in something less then a decade...not even talking about magical items.

[noob]

A simulacrum wizard with fabricate might do the masterwork swords fast and then with each wizard simulacrum you can craft some magic items by making them loose one level for being at half XP.

[GungHo]

I have nothing to contribute because I thought this was going to be about The Sims as a player race.

[kalos72]

It is, in part about the idea that a Sim can be a positive contributor to the local population. I will be using many many sims to start with, what to do with them after?

As for wizards creating magic items, its not so much about that but filling a city with master craftsmen to give a quick boost to the local economy.

[noob]

"As for wizards creating magic items, its not so much about that but filling a city with master craftsmen to give a quick boost to the local economy. "
wizards sims do that by creating masterwork items ten times faster also wizards are often elite and so have better craft skills(thanks to higher int) independently of the spells and they are not more costly to duplicate with mirror Mephit also you can duplicate priests(having like ten priests) for all the cure disease you need then after doing all those wizards and priests(like twelve of both) you might start adding shop keepers and merchants sims and traders since all the raw creation power is done by a bunch of wizards sims and you are largely overproducing with very few wizards.
then try finding the bests artists and architects and so on(all the public services and stuff of this kind) and do some hundreds of sims(from different people because variety is better) for each category and then you have all for a well working city which will attract pillagers as much as you want allowing you to do sidequests and which will attract normal people because everything is cheap here and there is plenty of employers(and of schools for everybody).

[kalos72]

I am down with using high INT characters as SIM fodder...but the point is that they will need at least 8-10 levels or SOMETHING to be able to effectively create Master Work items based on the skill points needed to do it effectively.

This is all speculation mind you so I could be wrong...

Also, there is the notion that a sim loses skill points due to the half level/HD line thats got to be taken into account.

But imagine if you could find the best human, dwarf, elven dark elven armor smiths and weaponsmiths of the land and get them to move to your fledgling city...how much would that boost a city huh? Both striaght dollars and cents but image and reputation as well.

I could just get sims of lv 20 wizards, use Psychic Reformation and call it a day I guess. A city filled with lv10 wizards all over the palce is gonna get OP fast.

[Flickerdart]

My understanding could be off here...please enlighten me if necessary but...

Since we almost never know skills an NPC takes as he advances, in order for a MASTER craftsmen to get the skills points needed to hit those DC's or to cut the time down as was discussed earlier, the only option is additional class levels. A Level 1 or 2 fighter, for example, will NEVER be a Master Craftsmen with his 12-14 skill points. Especially since most people with 2 levels are not going to spend every level in a craft.

Now if you suggest using the Expert class even your still gonna need either a crazy high INT or a good few bonus levels for 20+ skill check no?

Remember we are talking about making master craft quality items in something less then a decade...not even talking about magical items.
Master crafter, Middle-aged Prodigy Dwarf Commoner 1. 13 Int from Nonelite Array, +1 from Middle-aged, +2 from Prodigy = 16, or a +3 modifier.
Skill bonus: +4 ranks, +3 Intelligence, +2 racial, +3 Skill Focus (Craft), +2 masterwork anvil, +2 Mercantile Background trait, +4 prodigy = +20.

Super master crafter, Venerable Prodigy Dwarf Dwarf paragon 3/Stoneblessed 1. 18 Int, +3 from Venerable, +1 from levels, +2 from Prodigy = 24, or a +7 modifier.
Skill bonus: +7 ranks, +7 Intelligence, +2 racial, +3 Skill Focus (Craft), +2 masterwork anvil, +2 Aid Another from his apprentice, +1 Specialized trait, +2 Mercantile Background trait, +4 prodigy, +3 dwarf paragon, +2 stoneblessed, +5 competence item = +40. And he has a spare feat.

And that's without (ab)using spells or other subsystems.

[noob]

"But imagine if you could find the best human, dwarf, elven dark elven armor smiths and weaponsmiths of the land and get them to move to your fledgling city...how much would that boost a city huh? Both striaght dollars and cents but image and reputation as well."
The best blacksmith can not use fabricate to make a pile of 12 masterwork swords while the best smith wizard can(at level 9 you can cast fabricate).
You might say that the blacksmith is more optimized in craft yes it might be true because he took skill focus but he can not right after creating a sword decide to create an iron wall and then to help you to teleport.
Also since training a skill takes a lot of time the most known blacksmith might be in fact the one who put the most points in "Profession: managing employees" and "Profession: publicity" instead of maxing craft weapons.
So I think that you need masters in profession skills but that they will not be the ones who produce but rather the ones who export and sell.
also the master smith you create simulacrum off are also halved in level like your wizards.
Now what is the craft of a simulacrum wizard he have like 29 int (wishes + age + base int + points) and have 12 ranks + 9(from int)+2(masterwork tool) so in fact he have 23 points in this skill so he Automatically succeed to make a masterwork and since he use fabricate he can make tons of bonus things to the sword(like make it feycraft and superior quality and other weapon templates) easily.
the blacksmith might have a higher craft skill but he is going to be less productive than a wizard and in fact what you would want is someone to sell like I said and adventurers putting ranks in a selling skill nearly never happens compared to normal people doing this and so in fact like I said your merchants are going to be mundane.
If what is important for you is the fame of the blacksmith then take only one simulacrum of it and say that he participate.
Having ten simulacrum of the best blacksmith is going to be weird for people who goes there because of the fame of the most legendary blacksmith.
If you fear of having simulacrum op then why did the gm allowed it in the first place?

[kalos72]

Master crafter, Middle-aged Prodigy Dwarf Commoner 1. 13 Int from Nonelite Array, +1 from Middle-aged, +2 from Prodigy = 16, or a +3 modifier.
Skill bonus: +4 ranks, +3 Intelligence, +2 racial, +3 Skill Focus (Craft), +2 masterwork anvil, +2 Mercantile Background trait, +4 prodigy = +20.

Super master crafter, Venerable Prodigy Dwarf Dwarf paragon 3/Stoneblessed 1. 18 Int, +3 from Venerable, +1 from levels, +2 from Prodigy = 24, or a +7 modifier.
Skill bonus: +7 ranks, +7 Intelligence, +2 racial, +3 Skill Focus (Craft), +2 masterwork anvil, +2 Aid Another from his apprentice, +1 Specialized trait, +2 Mercantile Background trait, +4 prodigy, +3 dwarf paragon, +2 stoneblessed, +5 competence item = +40. And he has a spare feat.

And that's without (ab)using spells or other subsystems.

NICE! Thank you!

Now how do you get that as a sim? /wink


noob - Thanks for the response again. I love the debate. :)
Can Fabricate make Masterwork weapons and armor? If so then that does change things for sure...

Maybe instead of going for the rep of having all the lands best craftsmen, just go for all the best gear instead??!?! "If you want it, go to Neverwinter, they have everything."

[noob]

Even better have both since it is not that hard to do 12 simulacrum of wizards in addition to your 100 blacksmiths
having a civilization of simulacrum is not that hard since your simulacrum wizards are going to help you to summon mirror mephits for creating more simulacrum so in fact creating a civilization is going to be faster if you do 12 simulacrum wizards then make simulacrum of all the people you want for fame and etc.
else fabricate have nothing against masterwork items it will just need 100 PO per item you create


You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication. If you work with a mineral, the target is reduced to 1 cubic foot per level instead of 10 cubic feet.

You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.

Making simulacrum wizards is not something you make in place of the best smiths it is something you do for having the best smith too faster and having an industrial production or rather good quality(allowing everyone to have high quality chair and so on) in addition to the perfect things the smiths are going to make.(also no rule says that simulacrum of mirror mephits have a lower cl for making simulacrum so you could make simulacrum of mirror mephits too for helping instead of massively summoning them)

[Sagetim]

NICE! Thank you!

Now how do you get that as a sim? /wink


noob - Thanks for the response again. I love the debate. :)
Can Fabricate make Masterwork weapons and armor? If so then that does change things for sure...

Maybe instead of going for the rep of having all the lands best craftsmen, just go for all the best gear instead??!?! "If you want it, go to Neverwinter, they have everything."

The short clean answer is that fabricate can make masterwork items, the items just have to fit within the size limitations of the spell (which depends on if you're using organic or mineral materials). The spell does not take that long to cast, even when you're using the full volume that you can work with.

By comparison, a master craftsman has a +10 (minimum) modifier to their craft skill, which is enough to hit the dc 20 for the masterwork component for any given item. Having a +20 or more is overkill (but allows you to increase the dc of an item to speed crafting along). Crafting progress is made by the result of your check x the dc. So take 10 +10 = 20 vs dc 20 = 20x20= 400 silver of crafting progress per week of work. Which means a masterwork weapon's masterwork component takes 8 weeks to complete (7 and a half, but it's spent in full weeks of work).

Compare that to a level 9 wizard, who can affect up to 9 cubic feet of mineral per casting of fabricate. Let's estimate, and say that's about 3 longswords. They don't need to spend more time or anything, they just make two craft checks during the casting: vs the dc 15 to craft a martial weapon, and the dc 20 to make a masterwork weapon. There is no craft progress to keep track of, the wizard just finishes when he's done casting the spell. If we can assume that this simulacrum wizard can cast 2 fabricates in a day, then they can make 6 longswords a day. In the 8 weeks (80 days, as most dnd calendars have a 10 day week) the lone wizard simulacrum could make 480 swords in the time it takes a normal master smith to do the masterwork component of his one sword. Even if we're generous and say that he completes the normal section of the sword in the other half week, that's still 480 masterwork swords to his 1 sword.

So no, Noob. Fabricate works MUCH faster than just 10 times the crafting speed. >.>
By a lot.
This is a much greater disparity for master work full plate. I'm going to assume that the actual components of a single suit of full plate can fit within 9 cubic feet (after all, the suit is 6 feet tall and we're not measuring the empty space, we're measuring the layers of the armor itself). For estimation purposes, let's play it safe and say that you can only do one suit of full plate per caster level 9 fabricate. That's still two suits per day. It's going to take a master smith (with a +10 bonus) 45 and a half weeks to complete a single suit of full plate. So about 455 days to make a single suit. In the same amount of time, that wizard simulacrum (assuming you kept supplying him with materials) could plug away and get 910 suits of masterwork full plate completed.

If you wanted to apply fabricate to house construction, you're going to start needing to do some math, and fabricate is going to be completing particular sections at a time rather than trying to build a complete house all at once. As a GM, I would call for Craft (Carpentry) or Craft (Masonry) as appropriate, and maybe a knowledge (architecture and engineering) check to design the house in the first place.

If you cast simulacrum on a first level master craftsman (as noted, you can get a +10 modifier at level 1 if that's what you're focusing on) then as far as I'm concerned, you get a 1 hit die simulacrum with the same capabilities as the person you copied. It might have half hp, but it has normal skill ranks, feats, and all that jazz.

Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD). You can’t create a simulacrum of a creature whose Hit Dice or levels exceed twice your caster level. You must make a Disguise check when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is. A creature familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Spot check (opposed by the caster’s Disguise check) or a DC 20 Sense Motive check.

At all times the simulacrum remains under your absolute command. No special telepathic link exists, so command must be exercised in some other manner. A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities. If reduced to 0 hit points or otherwise destroyed, it reverts to snow and melts instantly into nothingness. A complex process requiring at least 24 hours, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped magical laboratory can repair damage to a simulacrum.

On reviewing the spell, I don't see anything that implies that the copy has any kind of will of it's own. I can see it having a personality in keeping with whatever it's a copy of, but it's under the absolute command of it's creator and has no ability to improve itself or learn. I also see no reason that it would have half XP of whatever it's a copy of, the spell specifies Level or Hit Dice, Not XP. So the only way it would have xp for crafting is if it had artificier levels and thus a crafting reserve appropriate to an artificier of that level.

[kalos72]

By comparison, a master craftsman has a +10 (minimum) modifier to their craft skill, which is enough to hit the dc 20 for the masterwork component for any given item. Having a +20 or more is overkill (but allows you to increase the dc of an item to speed crafting along). Crafting progress is made by the result of your check x the dc. So take 10 +10 = 20 vs dc 20 = 20x20= 400 silver of crafting progress per week of work. Which means a masterwork weapon's masterwork component takes 8 weeks to complete (7 and a half, but it's spent in full weeks of work).


Again, thanks for the detailed reply!

But above doesnt that assume your skill check roll is a 20? I read RAW to be you roll a 20d to determine your check. Say you roll a 18 x the DC of the item, say 20 equates to the amount of progress made on the item. The lower your check the slower the build goes no?

Also, with the wizard example, what would that sim need skill wise? Can you break it down like the above post for me please? :)

[kalos72]

On reviewing the spell, I don't see anything that implies that the copy has any kind of will of it's own. I can see it having a personality in keeping with whatever it's a copy of, but it's under the absolute command of it's creator and has no ability to improve itself or learn. I also see no reason that it would have half XP of whatever it's a copy of, the spell specifies Level or Hit Dice, Not XP. So the only way it would have xp for crafting is if it had artificier levels and thus a crafting reserve appropriate to an artificier of that level.


I am not sure I agree with this one though, it says a duplicate. It doesnt say physical duplicate it says duplicate. I take that to mean, in all manner outside of level/HD its exactly the same as the original. With the exception being I can control it should I want to.

But for both points, its not really clearly written thats for sure.

I also homebrew/houseruled that they can lose XP for crafting. Without XP they wouldn't have levels they would have HD.

So your position is then since they dont really have any drive or possibly get any pleasure out of life they would not do well as a "free citizen" I assume?

[Flickerdart]

But above doesnt that assume your skill check roll is a 20? I read RAW to be you roll a 20d to determine your check. Say you roll a 18 x the DC of the item, say 20 equates to the amount of progress made on the item. The lower your check the slower the build goes no?
No, that's not supported in the text at all. The skill says:


Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week’s work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC.
Your check result is your roll plus your modifiers.

[kalos72]

Ok so...math time. I am a visual kinda guy sorry. :)

"Craft Check - To make a skill check, roll 1d20 and add your character’s skill modifier for that skill."

So lets say I have Craft 20 (this is any combination of modifiers + the skill points I spent on the specific craft type?) for this example and now I want to make a longbow. The DC on the longbow is 12. Since I have Craft 20 I automatically pass the check and succeed for that week?

I roll a 10 so adding Craft 20 + 10 roll equals 30. Take the 30 x the DC of 12 to determine I made 360SP worth of that item that week. Compare 360SP to the total cost of the item I am making et nauseum...

That correct?

So if that level 9 wizard had a Craft 20, he can automatically and instantly make Mastercraft items using the Fabricate spell? Versus the regular craftsmen needing to go through week after week to meet the cost of the item.

WOW. Wizards win again aye?

EDIT - And anything over 20 for the wizard is a waste since he gets the item at the end of the cast time anyways?

[Sagetim]

It depends on the craft skill in question. Also, you don't need a +20 for most craft skills. Because in most situations where you would be crafting, you could take 10. This means that instead of rolling a 1d20, you take the average result (10) and apply your skill modifier.

So if your skill modifier is 10, and you take 10, you get a consistent result of 20 without having to roll the dice.

Now, there are some dc's that go over 20, some of them being in the craft (alchemy) skill for poisons and other things.

Another is the Mighty Composite Longbow, which has a scaling craft dc based on how high the strength modifier is. Now, unless you're making simulacrums of very high strength persons, you're probably not going to need to mass produce mighty bows with really high mods on them. But Craft (Bowmaking) is still one of the craft skills that can have dc's of over 20 on it.

Just to clarify: Simulacrum does not specify that they have any xp at all. It specifies that they have levels or hit dice as appropriate and no ability to advance. I interpret that to mean that they have 0 xp and that their levels/hit dice are part of the spell that has created them. An alternate interpretation that's supported by the fact that they have levels is that they have the minimum xp to be the level that they have been created with. I think it's a misinterpretation to give them 'half the xp of the target'. As you're the DM for this campaign, you're free to houserule what you want. I just think you're opening a can of worms if you let the players simulacrum up free crafting xp.


As an aside: using the dragon mech campaign setting and an inappropriate amount of simulacrums and wishes, I used a wizard to create a maximum sized city mech (City Mech-F sized, 1700 ft tall) coated in adamantine plating (with the plates having hardening cast at cl 40 through circle magic in triplicate for a grand total hardness of 100) within 30 days of game time. The weaponry was also filled out. There was an army of level 15 elves that decided they were going to attack the capital city of the humans. They were disabused of this notion as the city mech descended from on high to the trumpeting notes of a ghost sounded Final Countdown. There were no survivors. While I imagine you're not using dragon mech rules in your setting, and thus don't have to worry about your players making giant mecha and the ensuing shenanigans...the point of this story isn't to just say 'hohoho, giant mech wins vs elves'. It's also to say- that giant mech cost about 23 million gold. My wizard did not spend any money or xp to accomplish it. All of his classes and prestige classes are things from forgotten realms. And, in fact, because of wish abuse, he still had piles of extra adamantine laying around in the cargo storage of the city mech at the end.

[kalos72]

My allowance of sims to this level is purely to allow the group an epic campaign from the start. It is not a infinite ability just one that will allow them to bring themselves, and the city they are rebuilding, closer to the level of the opposing groups.

Long term, a more conventional army/citizenry is expected but since rules on how you create a 5000 man army thats not all level 1's or how you repopulate a city are vague or non existent, I am allowing some room to wiggle here.

I AM NOT, giving them cart blanche with my sim rulings or even magical trap cheeze.

But the question came up later, after the group started to put together the outline of what they want this to look like, once the conventional army is built, what do you do with 5000 sims?

Even making them question the sim approach and they thought about just moving to creatures instead of people as the original. Surely a battle field filled with Umber Hulk sims would suffice in most scenarios. :P

So the debate started about is a sim enough of a "person" to be a quality citizen as things progress.

[noob]

Simulacrums have good mental stats and so if you say them to act as responsible citizens they probably can do that since they can have initiative inside of their orders.

[Sagetim]

So, I just want to point out again that simulacrums are walking spells. They have a disguise check based on the mage's disguise skill for normal people to see through the illusion and notice that it's an ice body, and people who personally know what the copy is a copy of, get a sense motive check with a dc of 20.

So yes, it's implied that simulacrums can act like people just fine (otherwise they wouldn't get any kind of hiding it check, and uncanny valley would set in). But they cannot advance. This implies that they cannot learn or grow. Also, their bodies are made of ice. They don't eat. They probably don't need to sleep either (save for casting sims that need to rest to regain spells/power points/what have you). Their bodies are made of magical ice.

I'm assuming the players have a work around for the xp cost of casting simulacrum (and a work around or sufficient supplies to cover the gold cost). If they have a work around in place, the only thing stopping them from illusioning up an army is samples. Do any of them have a suit of armor made of dragon scales? Because each scale would count as a sample (and some larger scales could probably be cut down for extra samples). Which means an army of umber hulks is the least of your potential worries...an army of simulacrumed old dragons would be my concern.

[noob]

"an army of simulacrumed old dragons would be my concern. "
Not as much as an army of wizards they are more powerful per hit dice(when you reach very high hit dice) and so if you find the correct wizard(of level 32 for your mirror mephits) it is far better.(even better if he have loads of non dv increasing templates)

[kalos72]

Great points.

About the Disguise check, thats purely to see if someone can tell the sim from the original I thought, not to see if people can tell its made of ice?

If your originals are from another plane/sphere or are already dead there isn't any real issue with that....or using IA instead.

For example, the sim army my group is putting together is based on 2 characters that died in previous campaigns. Taking "hair samples" from each gives you the material needed and no worry about people recognizing them. Though it does look weird to have a company of female Star Elven Rangers that look exactly alike. :)

The primary caster in the group is trying to work out an "improved sim" spell where the features (eye/hair color, height/weight) are random instead of an exact duplicate. Or something like a full body tattoo acting like a wondrous item that shields the sim somehow?

[noob]

Maybe if you fail enough the disguise check you can have all of them pretty different also in pathfinder there is a spell called sculpt simulacrum which means that the GM might allow this.

[kalos72]

wow, I never saw that spell before. That makes the "improved sim" idea even easier I think. Thanks!

[unseenmage]

There are also spells that make free-willed Intelligent creatures. To my mind there would be no issue with those acting as actual members of a society.

The Minor Servitor spell from the 3.0 Savage Species book is just like Animate Objects but grants Intelligence and free will. Can be dispelled though so is subject to Antimagic Fields. Animating statues made with Fabricate definitely seems like a valid option to me.

The Awaken Sand spell from Sandstorm makes huge size piles of free-willed Intelligent sand. See my sig for sand-substitutes and uses for sand/powders. Can even kind of make a Simulacrum/shapechanger by casting it on a volume of Shapesand. Just have the Awakened Sand Shapesand thing transform itself into a mundane statue of the citizen in question.

Lastly, hitting these Construct creatures, which might not want to partake in society-centric activities such as food production/consumption obviously, with the Incarnate Construct spell from Savage Species will make them into living Humanoids/Giants who take about a year to mature mentally.

If Simulacrums are ruled to be Constructs in your game, which sometimes happens I'm not sure exactly why, then hitting them with incarnate Construct can make them into real-boys too and bam. Population handled.



There's also the idea of farming Mirror Duplicates created when a person visits the Plane of Mirrors from the 3.0 Manual of the Planes. The Mirror Travel spell or even a Planar Shepherd should be able to let you create plenty of Mirror Duplicates, and Helms of Opposite Alignment/Programmed Amnesia allow you to make them useful citizens.

However, as soon as they leave the plane of Mirrors they die if their counterpart hasn't been slain. Either abuse ressurection magic to get around this or buy lots of a costly magic item (don't remember the name off the top of my head) that makes it so they're always considered to be on their home plane so long as they wear it.

[noob]

"Lastly, hitting these Construct creatures, which might not want to partake in society-centric activities such as food production/consumption obviously, with the Incarnate Construct spell from Savage Species will make them into living Humanoids/Giants who take about a year to mature mentally. "

Why would you possibly want to make them alive?
They might hate you because you made them aging and frail and made them loose powers and made them need to loose plenty of time everyday to eat.
I am pretty sure you can include them in society with other things like for example wanting to have beautiful paintings and new books and so on and make them constantly buy and produce works of art and other superfluous things.
It is not like if the entire society was centered on food since wizard/priest simulacrum can just cast some spells to create plenty of food for all the humans here and basically with your vision of society destroy the society.
No I consider it is not necessary for a society with all the public services and the comfort and the safety and the various interesting or beautiful things to buy(in dnd everyone can read except barbarians and some other variant classes) you can make one fully working society.

"However, as soon as they leave the plane of Mirrors they die if their counterpart hasn't been slain. Either abuse ressurection magic to get around this or buy lots of a costly magic item (don't remember the name off the top of my head) that makes it so they're always considered to be on their home plane so long as they wear it. "
It is easy to use Resurrection you can do that with for example the apprentice luck + staff of true Resurrection trick(you just need level 11 people and they can do that a number of times equal to their number of luck feats so if you find a level 22 commoner and use psionic reformation and simulacrum you can then churn out people able to resurrect allies for free)

[kalos72]

There are also spells that make free-willed Intelligent creatures. To my mind there would be no issue with those acting as actual members of a society.

The Minor Servitor spell from the 3.0 Savage Species book is just like Animate Objects but grants Intelligence and free will. Can be dispelled though so is subject to Antimagic Fields. Animating statues made with Fabricate definitely seems like a valid option to me.

The Awaken Sand spell from Sandstorm makes huge size piles of free-willed Intelligent sand. See my sig for sand-substitutes and uses for sand/powders. Can even kind of make a Simulacrum/shapechanger by casting it on a volume of Shapesand. Just have the Awakened Sand Shapesand thing transform itself into a mundane statue of the citizen in question.

Lastly, hitting these Construct creatures, which might not want to partake in society-centric activities such as food production/consumption obviously, with the Incarnate Construct spell from Savage Species will make them into living Humanoids/Giants who take about a year to mature mentally.

If Simulacrums are ruled to be Constructs in your game, which sometimes happens I'm not sure exactly why, then hitting them with incarnate Construct can make them into real-boys too and bam. Population handled.


I like the Minor Servator idea, add Permanency and your gtg. Then you have commoner type npc's that can be taught / learn / advance as the race in question?

I like the Construct option but wouldn't use it on the Sims I do think but it could make some cool options. Just make Stone Gaurdians dwarf size and you now have a dwarf with 29 STR! :)

[unseenmage]

I like the Minor Servator idea, add Permanency and your gtg. Then you have commoner type npc's that can be taught / learn / advance as the race in question?

I like the Construct option but wouldn't use it on the Sims I do think but it could make some cool options. Just make Stone Gaurdians dwarf size and you now have a dwarf with 29 STR! :)

Oh yeah! I forgot one of the most important parts of Minor Servitor. Its duration is Permanent (until dispelled) already.
Though again, they are affected by Dispel Magic and Antimagic Fields, In fact, as long as they're within range, the spellcaster who made them can Dispel them as a Standard Action.
Yeah, spell that makes sentient free willed creatures that can be effectively slain with the wave of a hand. Scary stuff.
Part of why I included the Incarnate Construct info. (Although by RAW there's nothing that removes the Dispellable quality from them when they're Incarnate Construct-ed. Weird to watch humanoids vanish in Antimagic Fields but RAW is silly sometimes.)

And Awaken Sand's duration is Instantaneous, so like Wall of Stone, the thing it creates is true and real and lasting and not ended by Antimagic Fields/Dispel Magic.

[kalos72]

So the idea behind the Sand is... make sand sculpture, animate it and then awaken it?

[noob]

animate sand make the sand sentient so you need only one spell.
He spoke of incarnating the sand because he thinks it helps social interaction to loose 8 hours to sleep then to eat.

[Sagetim]

animate sand make the sand sentient so you need only one spell.
He spoke of incarnating the sand because he thinks it helps social interaction to loose 8 hours to sleep then to eat.


It does, because those are the kinds of things people do.

[noob]

Maybe but the sand you incarnate is really going to Hate you for making them die of old age and loose 8 hours per day in an state where they can not even know if they are truly sentient and need to eat and become tired and have two times more existential crisis about the continuity of their existance they are not going to be good citizen they are going only to hate you intensely and at least go to other places than your city and potentially make a plan for killing you.
I think that it is intensely cruel and evil to do that to animated sand.(a normal gm will rule that incarnating a sentient construct which was not willing-full is extremely evil and might shift your alignment to lawful evil for the idea of doing this)
Also you have never met humans who did not needed to eat or sleep and was immortal but maybe if they were present in actual human society they would be well integrated since such kind of thing never happened in real life there is no proof of the opposite.

[Sagetim]

Maybe but the sand you incarnate is really going to Hate you for making them die of old age and loose 8 hours per day in an state where they can not even know if they are truly sentient and need to eat and become tired and have two times more existential crisis about the continuity of their existance they are not going to be good citizen they are going only to hate you intensely and at least go to other places than your city and potentially make a plan for killing you.
I think that it is intensely cruel and EVIL to do that to animated sand.

And there's bound to be people (and npcs in the setting) who would argue that it's the bestest thing ever because living is better than not, sentience aside.

In any case, I would treat the simulacrums much like factory robot arms. They might be particularly personable factory robot arms, but I don't think they're ever going to change their opinion on anything or grow as a person. And given that part of living is to grow and be capable of changing your mind, learning new things and appreciating new opinions? I think simulacrums would just wind up being too uncanny valley to fit in a society for an extended period of time if they were counted as normal citizens.

[unseenmage]

So the idea behind the Sand is... make sand sculpture, animate it and then awaken it?

Shapesand from the Sandstorm book isa n alchemical item that can become any other mundane object according to its controllers will.

Animating the Shapesand as an Awakened Sand would allow it to (albeit slowly) reshape itself into whatever it wanted, including a statue of a person. Except that it would be Large Huge Size and it takes a LOT of Shapesand to get enough to animate. Incarnate Construct requires the subject construct to be humanoid shaped.

Simply animating statues of people via these two spells would give you Simulacrum-like effects except that the resultant creations are free-willed. No need for complex commands.
Making them living people would (DM willing) imbue them with souls and actual life. Would also help maintain an economy of needs if the populus needs to sleep and eat and house itself.

A nation of unliving soul-less Constructs on the other hand wouldn't need much in the way of upkeep. Which is not good for a flowing economy.

[noob]

"A nation of unliving soul-less Constructs on the other hand wouldn't need much in the way of upkeep. Which is not good for a flowing economy. "
look in real life how economy works most of the money is not spent in food and the fact you spend many in your house is only linked to how economy works and to the fact people wants to be at the main city so much that the ones renting or selling can make the prices a lot higher than it needs but then there is a lot of money that is spent on bonus things like your newest computer and so on and if they were the only things you got from money I am sure a lot of people would work also since it is dnd there is all the threats outside and so building new weapons and buying them becomes normal and so there will be an huge pressure for trading do not forget that in dnd food is incredibly super ultra uber cheap compared to all the other transactions and that one masterwork item have the value of ten years of food and that finally the food must be one of the smallest transactions.
Then there is all the spells for creating food you get from your simulacrum and in the end food is not at all even sightly a motivation since it is already granted and houses are cheap with all the spells you got.
So what I think is that in a dnd society food is the last preoccupation for the trade flow(according to the prices and the fact there is a lot more money gain than needed for eating a competent commoner wins 2 gp per week which is enough for feeding a whole family and having a more than half in surplus) and so that having creature which does not eats is not a problem.
Also even if you do not sleep having an house is something important for storing your masterwork painting and books and for being in a private place to speak with some people while not being in a public place also I do not think that a being made of sand like rain.
Those who does not wants to produce and buy simply go away from themselves since they probably are not so much social.

[kalos72]

My campaign has many magical food production lines already...so food production is an option not a requirement.

Incarnate Constructs are real races or still Constructs? No eat/sleep and such...

[noob]

Incarnated constructs are humanoids and so needs to sleep and eat(and die of old age) they are made by casting incarnate construct on a construct and it makes non sentient constructs sentient and only make sentient constructs humanoids making them angry after your society(unless they asked themselves to be incarnated) and also make them need to sleep and eat and die of old age.
Animated sand is sentient and have 3d6 in each mental score and is made with the spell animate sand.
Awakened constructs are independent of the two previous ones and is constructs that are sentient thanks to awaken construct and who are constructs.

[unseenmage]

My campaign has many magical food production lines already...so food production is an option not a requirement.

Incarnate Constructs are real races or still Constructs? No eat/sleep and such...

Incarnate Constructs are real people. No longer Constructs they become Humanoids (or Giants if they're big). They lose all their previous traits and Construct abilities.


It could even be argued that the sentient mind that was in the Construct before (if it had one) is replaced and supplanted by a new infant consciousness that takes 1 year to mature.

Edit: Fun fact, judging by the illustration in Savage Species and the fact that the RAW says nothing on the issue the skin color of the new humanoids created by Incarnate Construct remains the same as it was when they were a Construct.
So stone golems still have stone colored/textured skin, brass golems have brass, etc.

When I used these spells I'd Minor Servitor-ed a lot of Obdurium statues. Obdurium being the hardest metal I could find. Obdurium, as it turns out, is a purplish metal. So in my DM's Forgotten realms, the nation of Aglarond now had a race of giant sand-skinned people and another race of metallic-purple skinned people.
To the DM's credit, he ran with it. And now those new races of humanoid and giant wander his world.

[noob]

Poor race vulnerable to dispel magic(they simply have to not become adventurers and it is going to be fine)

[kalos72]

Nice.

So you have commoner with STR 29 and 100ish HP! NICE!

Given the stone golem example in Savage Species.

[unseenmage]

Poor race vulnerable to dispel magic(they simply have to not become adventurers and it is going to be fine)

Yeah the Dispel Magic vulnerability retention is a fluke of RAW and the DM and I agreed not to leave that in. There is also language in Incarnate Construct that would exclude that feature if read the right way.
The only really taxing thing is that a vulnerability to Dispel Magic and Antimagic Fields isn't an (Ex), (Su), nor a (Sp) ability. It's never called out as any of these and those are the only traits that Incarnate Construct cares about.

It also only affects the Minor Servitor and Permanency-ed Animate Object based Incarnate Constructs.


The real question is, if you retain that vulnerability as the RAW would imply, do the offspring of these new races retain it as well? Who's to say?

[noob]

"Given the stone golem example in Savage Species. "
stone golems costs a lot and nothing ever says that incarnated creatures have a sex nor can breed and also they make mention of orphan incarnated creatures but they say that is corresponds to creatures which had their creator die so nothing hints about the possibility to create another incarnate creature without making another base construct that you incarnate.
Also in society most of the time having high strength does not helps since it is all about skill-checks who does not change with the strength.

[kalos72]

Yeah, the dispel part seems wonky if your making a real living creature. Not sure I agree with that one.

Can you help walk me through the process Unseenmage?

I want a elven/dwarven/human sized/shaped construct that we will turn into a normal living creature of the appropriate race.

[noob]

"I want a elven/dwarven/human sized/shaped construct that we will turn into a normal living creature of the appropriate race. "
It have absolutely no reason to end up of the race to which they are similar but if you want to create humans you know there is other ways than spending loads of money or spells like for example iron heart surge(with some weird interpretations).
On one other side I can suggest to use grisgol simulacrum to create the animated sand and other spells without XP cost.

[unseenmage]

"Given the stone golem example in Savage Species. "
stone golems costs a lot and nothing ever says that incarnated creatures have a sex nor can breed and also they make mention of orphan incarnated creatures but they say that is corresponds to creatures which had their creator die so nothing hints about the possibility to create another incarnate creature without making another base construct that you incarnate.
Also in society most of the time having high strength does not helps since it is all about skill-checks who does not change with the strength.

The game treats Ability checks and Skill checks as the same thing. You can take 10 and Take 20 with both when appropriate.




Yeah, the dispel part seems wonky if your making a real living creature. Not sure I agree with that one.

Can you help walk me through the process Unseenmage?

I want a elven/dwarven/human sized/shaped construct that we will turn into a normal living creature of the appropriate race.

Well, when I did it I was using Magic Traps and Spellclocks (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a). However, I also had infinite wealth (with DM's blessing) and we were playing in a high powered, Gestalt, Faerun game. Not for the faint of heart to be sure. The character wound up causing such a ruckus with his process that eh got a visit from his deity, who informed him that though said deity was proud of the character, that the character should still knock off the world-shaking inventions. Was fun times.


Each of the following spells was either in a Magic Trap, a Spellclock, or an Energy Transformation Field (SpC 80).
- True Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/trueCreation.htm) to make the substances one wishes to animate.

- Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) for forming the body into a humanoid form.

- Then either Animate Objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateObjects.htm) + Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) or Minor Servitor (SS 68) or Awaken Sand (Sa 111) to animate the subnstance.

- In the case of Awaken Sand and Minor Servitor Guidance of the Avatar (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a) (think True Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueStrike.htm) but for skills) boosted Diplomacy allowed my character to convert the creatures to his religion (PoF 51) and to command them.

- The spell Greater Humanoid Essence (RoE 186) will make a Construct into a Humanoid for a time. This makes them living, and makes them subject to mind-affecting effects. Also, spells like Telepathic Bond (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telepathicBond.htm) won't cease when the creature's type changes and the creature becomes immune to mind-affecting again. As it was explained to me this is because if changing type made spells stop affecting the target then Greater Humanoid Essence itself couldn't work as it would cease as soon as it took effect.
The Fanatic attitude (ELH 42) can be attained with a high enough Diplomacy roll and can explicitly be achieved by non-epic characters. This is how I 'commanded' the normally free-willed Constructs. It is also why I needed the spell Greater Humanoid Essence because achieving the Fanatic attitude is a mind-affecting effect.


- A more brute force method is to use Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) to simply create Constructs from nothing, if in your game Constructs count as Magic Items. The RAW implies that they both do and do not. (For the purposes of the GITP RAW Q&A thread they do not.) Barring that you can use Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm) to simply call forth the creatures you are trying to create or the creatures you wish to modify.

In my aforementioned high powered Gestalt Faerun game I'd disallowed myself the spells Wish, Miracle, Gate, and Genesis (ELH 117). These spells were later banned in the setting as well for some very good reasons.


Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) will also net you more and more minions if used at various points in the above process. And Simulacrums of Constructs will also be Constructs and can probably be Incarnate Construct-ed as Incarnate Construct (SS 67) only makes the subject weaker and not stronger as evidenced by its negative level adjustment.


And that's basically it. You're on your own for prices and caster levels etc. But I do advise that, if possible, you buy casting of the spells you need from spellcasters rather than buying scrolls or staffs as individual casting are far cheaper.

[Tvtyrant]

Why would you assume that the original is higher level? The vast majority of the world is ultra low level.

I think this one varies from person to person. I certainly never truck with low level NPCs. Wasn't giving them NPC classes enoug

[kalos72]

Sorry dude, not sure I follow you here.

-You make a statue of a humanoid - say with white skin/blue eyes and blonde hair
-You animate it with Animate Object or Minor Servitor turning it into a construct
EDIT - Use Greater Humanoid Presence to open the Construct to modifications Like your Fanatic Diplomacy aptitude and the Telepathic Bond - once the duration is over, those spells become something like "special abilities"?
-You then Incarnate Construct to make it humanoid permanently?
-Humanoid "real boy" with something resembling white skin/blue eyes and blonde hair

[noob]

He wants to enslave the construct with diplomacy.

[kalos72]

He wants to enslave the construct with diplomacy.

Oh now, thats such a negative way to explain it. Enlighten is a better choice I think. :)

All I need to do is find the rules about making a +30 Diplomacy magic item.

[Sagetim]

Oh now, thats such a negative way to explain it. Enlighten is a better choice I think. :)

All I need to do is find the rules about making a +30 Diplomacy magic item.

As I recall, if you're using the normal magic item rules to craft things you need to have at least as many ranks as the bonus you are trying to impart with a magic item (like how you need 3x caster level per point of enhancement bonus for weapons and armor). The limiter being a +30 skill bonus on a non epic magic item (or a +5 enhancement bonus for non epic weapons and armor).

Ancestral Relics, being...sparsely written, don't suffer this limitation. Just gp value. Do bear in mind that if you went over a +30 competence bonus for an item, you would have to do the cost as the epic rules require.

[kalos72]

So for the Construct side I think I understand the process, unless someone tells me my post 3-4 up is wrong.

But for a Sim, how could it work?

Maybe:
1-Greater Construct Essence to make the Sim a Construct - modify as desired with Telepathic Bond and the like.
2- Incarnate Construct?

Wouldn't that give me race/sex/features I want with the free will/sentience I desire?

Also, any suggestions on what to make the status/constructs out of to make them more "lifelike" once they turn "real boy"? Having a bunch of stone textured purple people walking around isn't the best scenario I guess.

[noob]

incarnate construct (http://moon.nfshost.com/spell/DnD%20index/Data/spells/s_2889.html)(the spell) does says that the construct is independent but it is never defined by RAW so an annoying DM could say that your simulacrum is still a slave.

[Vaz]

Why not tax people with a pay as you earn scheme taking out a small part of their wage whih goes towards the payment of the ritual of crucimigation for Necropolitan. Theu are non evil undead who live forever.

Bonuses accrued include better station and ever living job with better stats as a result of those Corpsecrafter feats, or even higher level spells, such as Animate Dread Warrior amd use of Psilychic Reformations to optimize them at their relevant role. Criminals etc can either be dealt with by premature turning undead, removal of rights of them and their family to become everliving, or putting them in the terrible jobs reserved for the lowest of the low, like mucl cleaning, or forced into the army under cintrol of minor sergeant level clerics who order them into massed battle as fodder, perhaos 'blessed' with the exploding corpsecrafter feat, so that their eternal life is cut decidedly short.

It isn't evil, but it is the combined stick and carrot. Obviously, those who volunteer the required payment before their time can opt to pay for the ritual, putting them into the relevant bracket.

Failing that, why not battery up with Planar Binding for mirror mephits, using their SLA for simulacrum, but with 16-18HD available (dependent on whether you donate orange ioun stones to the cause) from that SLA(hence, componentless) Simulacrum, why are you simming Human Commoners, when you can use it for genies under the control of the Mephit (bound to your will) and begin a wish economy, completely obviating the need for a working population when you can then order in arbitrary high CL Gate scrolls to do whatever you need?

[kalos72]

Cool idea actually. Not much for the undead though, to Thavian for our tastes! :)

I was talking about Sim'in NPC's with specific skill sets to acquire those skills in Neverwinter quickly but then long term putting them back into society after I am done with them as free and sentient beings.

But after looking at this Diplomacy/Fanatic line, who needs sims when you can go to the biggest city, meet the best smith in town and turn him to a fanatical follower. Wow is that skill broken....but I love it.

Same with simple citizens, just find all the ones capable of progressing as casters (arcane or divine) and get them enrolled in mage school.

Or just make your own the two ways I described earlier in this thread and have your own "unique" citizens.