how to enter a sealed and heavily protected demiplane?

[flamewolf393]

So in some hypothetical thought excercises, we are trying to figure out the absolutely best way to protect a liches lair.

So far I have the lich creating a demiplane, making itself the only planar key to said demiplane, and having absolutely no connections to any other planes. When making the traits of the plane, it has a normal area in the central 1000' or 10,000' or whatever it needs, then makes it so the entirety of the rest of the plane is a dead magic zone, ensuring the lair is encapsulated in a perfect antimagic barrier. So no gates or teleports or plane shifts will be able to enter the plane. The central area will of course have a dimensional lock/seal on it just in case.

Is there a way to bypass this setup so far? And if so, how do we protect against it?

[Nifft]

Step 1: Epic Diplomacy to seduce Neth, the Plane that Snuggles.

Step 2: Convince Neth to eat the other demi-plane.

Step 3: Epic Escape Artist to get out of the relationship commitment.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Wish can do a lot of crazy stuff, including transporting people. A planar shepherd could use a bubble of a normal-magic plane to cast while on your demiplane.

Ideally, nobody knows about your demiplane. Fooling the gods (and by extension, commune et al.) is very difficult, but becoming Vecna-blooded is a good start mortal-wise. Don't stop at counter-divination spells, also destroy known references to you, and your powers, and do so steathily (to avoid records of how you destroyed records).

[A_S]

The Silver Key PrC (from Dragonmarked) has a class feature specifically designed to let it do this stuff. Of course, it's otherwise pretty terrible.

It's the secret ingredient for the current Iron Chef round, so you might find some inspiration there.

[lhilas]

Use a truenamer to gate you in. Truenaming not equals magic therefore you're good to go.
Also possible to use a psion, or just an epic spell which would be epic enough to overcome the power of the antimagic effect.
Protect the plane in the same way just with psion and epic versions of antimagic, but the truenamer still gotc'ha! :)
I always thought those truenamers were overpowered... XD

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

According to the Rules Compendium, antimagic and dead magic areas do not block line of effect for spells, so that portion of the defenses won't help at all.


Focus
A small, forked metal rod. The size and metal type dictates to which plane of existence or alternate dimension the spell sends the affected creatures.
Unless this lich's physical form is a forked metal rod, he cannot be the planar key to said demiplane.

Dimensional Lock (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalLock.htm) can prevent planar travel into an area, but it only affects a 20-ft. radius. A custom continuous effect item of Dimensional Lock would cost 120,000 gp, not very economical.

None of this is going to work, anyone who knows about this demiplane can travel to it via Plane Shift, Gate, etc., as long as they don't specifically target either of those in an area affected by dead magic, antimagic, or Dimensional Lock.

You could maybe use the Limited Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#magicTraits) trait, make Necromancy [Mind-Affecting] spells function there, and give him Fell Frighten Spell and Song of the Dead so he can make any spell into a Necromancy [Mind-Affecting] but such spells will only affect undead creatures. Thus a Plane Shift can only transport anyone there if it has those two (or similar) metamagic feats applied, and such a spell would only be capable of transporting an undead creature to that plane. He can have one or more 20-ft. radius areas that are not affected by the limited magic trait, which he keeps covered with Dimensional Locks.

[Psyren]

]
Is there a way to bypass this setup so far?

Wish and Miracle.


]
And if so, how do we protect against it?

You don't :smalltongue:

[flamewolf393]

I has another idea. There was some obscure way to make a demiplane trait that would psychically bar the very presence of creatures of a certain type, I think it immediately shunts them to the nearest connecting plane, or the astral plane if no other is available. So I would make it so that the plane blocks the presence of any creature with the outsider type. Since *nothing* is native to this demiplane, ALL creatures without exception would have to outsider type in reference to said demiplane.

Now, we have the lich take a rank in vampire (using RaW legal racial shenanigans), that way it can have a coffin with some of its homeland soil on the demiplane. IIRC how the rule works, it counts officially as a native of the plane its home soil is established in, and thus will never at any point have the outsider type on this demiplane. It can now live on the plane, avoiding the creature type barrier.

Combine with the dead magic/psionics barrier and the dimensional lock until the department of redundancy department is no longer amused.

@biff: The rules for creating your own demiplane can get really complex once you bring in all the planar splatbooks. Spells used during the creation of the plane can be made into planar traits, thus the use of dimensional lock WAY beyond the normal capabilities, and during creation you can declare virtually ANY item to be a planar key for it.

[Brova]

You don't need to get in. You need to get whatever's in there out. In this case, you do that with gate. You call a "particular being" - such as the guy who owns the demiplane - and he gets pulled over to where you are. What's more, he's compelled to serve you for a number of rounds equal to your caster level. You ought to be able to work with that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I has another idea. There was some obscure way to make a demiplane trait that would psychically bar the very presence of creatures of a certain type, I think it immediately shunts them to the nearest connecting plane, or the astral plane if no other is available. So I would make it so that the plane blocks the presence of any creature with the outsider type. Since *nothing* is native to this demiplane, ALL creatures without exception would have to outsider type in reference to said demiplane.

This is completely wrong. Traveling between planes only gives a creature the Extraplanar subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#extraplanarSubtype), it does not change their creature type in any way whatsoever.


@biff: The rules for creating your own demiplane can get really complex once you bring in all the planar splatbooks. Spells used during the creation of the plane can be made into planar traits, thus the use of dimensional lock WAY beyond the normal capabilities, and during creation you can declare virtually ANY item to be a planar key for it.

I'm not seeing that in the RAW for when a spellcaster creates his own plane (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm). Such rules are for when a DM decides that a plane exists in his setting's cosmology, not when a PC or NPC uses magic to create their own plane. What you get to decide when creating a plane during play is limited to the listed planar traits (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm). You could make it Timeless for spells, in which case all noninstantaneous spells cast on the plane will be permanent until dispelled, including Dimensional Lock. In that case, he could just cast Dimensional Lock all over the place to blanket the entire plane with it, but that would also mean he couldn't return there if he ever left. Someone could still travel to that plane before he finishes casting all of those Dimensional Lock spells, though.

[Sagetim]

I think you would be better off having a normal sized demi plane and casting forbiddance on it. Yes, it means casting a cleric spell or some such thing, but that's where wish or other work arounds come in handy. Unless those fools are the same alignment as they caster, they're taking damage for daring to enter your place. Combine with a tainted scholar and season to taste for a ball busting will save dc.

edit: I could be wrong, but I don't think timeless works that way.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

edit: I could be wrong, but I don't think timeless works that way.

It specifically does (last line before Shape and Size (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#time)): "If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled."

[torrasque666]

You don't need to get in. You need to get whatever's in there out. In this case, you do that with gate. You call a "particular being" - such as the guy who owns the demiplane - and he gets pulled over to where you are. What's more, he's compelled to serve you for a number of rounds equal to your caster level. You ought to be able to work with that.

Except that as the creator of the demiplane you are arguably the ruler of that planar realm and thus can prevent the portal from opening in your presence.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Except that as the creator of the demiplane you are arguably the ruler of that planar realm and thus can prevent the portal from opening in your presence.

There's a big difference between a planar realm and a finite demiplane. Plus, there are no mechanical effects to designate any particular creature a the 'ruler' of any such demiplane.

[flamewolf393]

This is completely wrong. Traveling between planes only gives a creature the Extraplanar subtype (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#extraplanarSubtype), it does not change their creature type in any way whatsoever.

Sorry, thats what I meant, extraplanar, not outsider. But a subtype is still a type.



I used to be really into the planar mechanics/shenanigans. It was my favorite part of the entire d&d system... its been a while though, so I would have to go back and look up the details again. It went WAY beyond just using that one spell you quoted. Especially since the one I remember, had no upper limit on the size. It would keep growing forever, just at a very slow rate. It was like 100' per day for a time limit (caster level days I think?), and then slowed to something like 100' per year.

But I know theres ways to do this stuff. The was a whole huge section of rules on plane creation and customization. It was complicated, but you could completely customize the planar traits, including the use of spells in the creation process to make custom planar effects. Including the use of the awaken spell to make it self aware.

[Sagetim]

You're thinking of Genesis (either the psychic power or the spell) which creates a demiplane and I think it continues to grow at a rate of something like 1/2 foot per year after it hits it's fast growth maximum.

Awaken, the 5th level druid spell, specifically targets animals and makes them magical animals. I'm pretty sure that it can't be cast on a demiplane or plane. Now, if you found some kind of tree that you could have extended all the way through the Demiplane, you could cast Awaken on That.

As for timeless: Huh...the more you know~

[Kraken]

I'm curious as to the feasibility of making a demiplane inaccessible by virtue of having no actual space for an invader to travel to. Make the demiplane just one big solid hunk of rock, with a 5'x5' space for you (and the entrance to your mage's mansion), which you would fill whenever you didn't physically occupy it, taking up the space. By my reckoning, this would make the entire plane an invalid target even for wish transport.

[lord_khaine]

Well.. if they used Wish to open a gateway to the place they would most likely be able to move some of the stone away first.
And else they could always be incorporal i guess.

[Kraken]

Well.. if they used Wish to open a gateway to the place they would most likely be able to move some of the stone away first.
And else they could always be incorporal i guess.

My reading of wish is that it's more like teleport, so there's no gateway to reach through. An incorporeal creature can only pass through objects while remaining adjacent to their surface. I suppose this means the edge of demiplane might be a valid target for them? Maybe? That can be fixed with any sort of antimagic though, as incorporeal creatures would wink out until the antimagic disappeared.

[flamewolf393]

You're thinking of Genesis (either the psychic power or the spell) which creates a demiplane and I think it continues to grow at a rate of something like 1/2 foot per year after it hits it's fast growth maximum.

What timeframe would the yearly expansion be in? Is it in respect to the planes timeframe, or the natural timeframe of the creator? If the plane was timeless, would it not grow? If I had it at 10,000x time speed would it grow insanely fast?

[Rubik]

Ensure that the demiplane is timeless in regards to magic, then make sure you're Polymorphed or otherwise resized using size-changing magic down to Fine sized. Design the entire demiplane to only fit Fine-sized creatures; make it a solid chunk of stone with rooms and tunnels large enough to fit something the size of a flea. The sole exception is an area large enough to fit a single Medium sized creature, but it's filled with quintessence. Anyone from Diminutive size on up trying to enter the plane can only fit inside the quintessence chamber, and as soon as they pop in, suddenly they're held in perfect chrono-stasis. Then all you need to do is 'port them over to another demiplane you've made composed of nothing BUT quintessence, then refill the chamber. Then to protect yourself from being whisked away, wear a bunch of weapons with the spellblade enhancement to protect you from Miracle, Wish, Gate, and so on. You can always take them off for a moment if you ever want to subject yourself to such an effect.

Protect from incorporeal creatures by ensuring that there is more than 5' of solid stone between the quintessence chamber and the tunnels dug into the stone.

You can still protect your plane from teleportation; just make sure the quintessence chamber isn't. And make sure there's a Fine sized portal for your own use. You can stick it under a pebble at the bottom of the sea somewhere or something.

For bonus points, make the entire demiplane your phylactery.