Trying to find a better way to assess Lycanthropes' CR

[Kol Korran]

Hey folks! Just a fair warning, this is PF only... In a very recent thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?436934-Were-creature-druid-and-BBEG-buld-help-question), I became confused about how Lycanthropes CRs are calculated in PF. As was summed up (Only the relevant parts of the post):



... The CR part seems unbalanced until you have an average class level equal to the animal CR. A were dire elephant and a simple were rat will have the same CR for the same Humanoid chasis (this link (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/lycanthrope/werebear)show an example of were bear and if you look at the bottom to the editor note you will see scratching the mistake on the speed that the CR is expected to be 5+1). It sounds wacky, I think someone did a terrible job there...

...CR = 1 + (CR animal or CR humanoid) You pick whichever is higher...

...I would strongly advise of running a few test to really check the CR, druid at the very least benefit a lot from the this and it may be closer to CR 9. Hybrid letting you focus on you mental stats at close to no disadvantage...

So, in short, a Lycanthrope's CR is calculated thus: You see if the base humanoid or the base animal have a higher CR. And to that value you add +1. Do you see the problem?

Say you have were-dire lion. Dire lion is CR 5. So a lvl 1-were-dire lion will be CR 6, but so will be a lvl3-were-dire lion and even a lvl 6 (CR 5) were-dire lion!

The opposite is also true:
Say you have a 10th level character (CR 9), a lvl 10-were-dire rat is the same CR as a lvl 10-were-wolf, lvl 10-were-dire lion or a lvl 10 were-elephant!

Am I the understanding this right, or am I missing something? If this IS so, it looks like a big design flaw to me. Anyone has any ideas on how to make a better estimate of the CR of these were- beings?

Any ideas and help in either understanding this better, or coming to a better way of determining more proper CR, would be appreciated.

Thanks a bunch,
Kol.:smallsmile:

[Buufreak]

I do believe this would be like adding a template, and they forgot the + when mentioning CR. So in your example, the were-dire lion's CR would be calculated regularly for class levels and then have the additional CR tacked on.

[Harmelyo]

Buufreak. I am afraid it is not as simple. Unlike 3.5, you do not get the animal HDs nor feats or skills racial bonuses which screw the equation around. Paizo decided to go the quick and dirty way and not balance were-animals against each others.


Challenge Rating: Same as base creature or base animal (whichever is higher) +1. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lycanthrope)

I am giving a few examples with more details of what :
1- Humanoid HD < Animal CR:
You end up with a low level were-whatever with a CR that can be over-inflated. lvl 1 commoner were-Dire lion is a fun one with a CR 6. This solve itself as level passes. When you reach a Humanoid class level = Animal CR, you end up with something a bit more balanced.

2- Were-strong animal =/= Were-weak animal.
In hybrid form you get the stat of your best side (animal or humanoid), it can lead to serious unbalance. For example a dire rat will net you pitiful physical stat (Str 10, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 4) when a tiger would net you something that will make a lot of fighters drool (Str 23, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6). This is even without considering the natural AC bonuses which for dire ones, megafauna and prehistoric animals are preposterous. Do not even get me started on the garbage diving, I am sure there is even more unbalanced animals (hint: this is just a tiger not even a dire tiger: Str 27, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10 ). To be fair, I picked only valid choices for a medium sized humanoid.

CR Calculation :
WARNING:
- I have only quickly assessed it and not even check against all my previous examples.
- Natural Lycanthrope is assumed. Afflicted is too annoying mechanically speaking to balance.

I have no good mathematical and scaling solution for the first case. What I would do is until both sides (Animal, humanoid) have reach an equivalent CR, I would use lowest CR +1. It won't work really well for bruiser using a were-Dire something or were-megafauna. Even more at really low level where the DR 10/silver is really strong.

For the second case (once CR of both side a equal or when humanoid is greater), I would offer something along the line of CR +1 + 1/4 of animal CR.
A quick use of the Bestiary advanced search tool (nifty (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/tools/advanced-monster-search)!) gave me a list of animals valid targets to apply Lycanthrope to medium humanoid. Their CR ranges from 1/4 (Dodo) to 8 (dire tiger).

Examples:
Were Dodo
With the equation a were-dodo's CR (yes it is stupid... who will get bitten by a dodo!?) would be:
- lowest humanoid : fighter 1 => CR 1 = 1/2 + 1 + 1/4 x 1/4
- equivalent humanoid HD and animal CR: fighter 1 => CR 1 = 1/2 + 1 + 1/4 x 1/4
- Higher humanoid HD than animal CR: fighter 10 => CR 10 = 9 + 1 + 1/4 x 1/4

Were Dire Tiger
- lowest humanoid : fighter 1 => CR 3 = 1/2 + 1 + 8 x 1/4
- equivalent humanoid HD and animal CR: fighter 8 => CR 10 = 7 + 1 + 8 x 1/4
- Higher humanoid HD than animal CR: fighter 10 => CR 12 = 9 + 1 + 8 x 1/4

[Kol Korran]

Hmmm... A good analysis. For my uses though I'll uses the base animal as the base CR, and add a +1 for base animals of CR 1-3, +2 for CR 4-6, +3 for CR 7-9 and so on. Not perfect, for sure, but will do for now I think...

Thanks a lot for the effort into your answer! :smallsmile: