Polymorph any Object: The subject can end the spell at any time they want

[dascarletm]

I was reading Polymorph any Object, and I noticed that the subject can end the spell at any time they wish.

PaO works as Greater Polymorph in all ways except for those listed in the description of PaO.


This spell functions like greater polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another.
coupled with...

The subject may choose to resume its normal form as a full-round action; doing so ends the spell.
That bit of rule text is not negated anywhere in PaO, and as such by RAW the subject of PaO can just choose to not be polymorphed at any time as a full round action.

[noob]

That is very useful some times but when you are an item as you are not sentient you can not cancel.

[Segev]

With the exception of the specific circumstance where it mimics another spell (e.g. baleful polymorph or flesh to stone), this is not a problem anyway: you're probably using it as a buff, not a punishment or attack.

[Psyren]

With the exception of the specific circumstance where it mimics another spell (e.g. baleful polymorph or flesh to stone), this is not a problem anyway: you're probably using it as a buff, not a punishment or attack.

And even in those cases, "the spell can also be used to duplicate X" means that you aren't using Greater Polymorph's text anymore, you're using the text from X. So if you mimic Baleful Polymorph or Flesh to Stone with it, they can't break free because those spells don't let you.

[noob]

Also one really weird thing is that it still have the limitation "The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower)"
And objects have no DV but can still be converted to creatures(if you read the description) so _> X with X an integer.
so it means that I can turn an potato or a dead commoner into any creature but not a commoner.
Also I would like to know what happens to an object turned into an human?(already you doomed an sentient being to death) also do the newly created humanoid have a soul?

[Psyren]

Also one really weird thing is that it still have the limitation "The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower)"

I would say PAO's "all manner of objects and creatures into new forms" would override that.

[noob]

Does this also override the type limit and the size limit?

[Segev]

Does this also override the type limit and the size limit?

Definitely. PAO gives as examples changing twigs into trees and mice into manticores. There's nothing preventing it from turning a chip of stone into a great wyrm red dragon...for up to 20 minutes.

[Jack_Simth]

Definitely. PAO gives as examples changing twigs into trees and mice into manticores. There's nothing preventing it from turning a chip of stone into a great wyrm red dragon...for up to 20 minutes.

Well, with the Pathfinder version of Polymorph Any Object, you get 'function not defined' when you try to do anything outside the scope of Greater Polymorph. Why? Well, it "functions like Greater Polymorph" with some exceptions. Greater Polymorph references a set of specific Polymorph spells (Beast Shape IV, Elemental Body III, Alter Self, Plant Shape II, Form of the Dragon I).

If you try to use Polymorph Any Object to turn your buddy into a Great Wyrm.... there's no specifically defined result. There's also no obvious pattern upon which to make a result. Ditto for Constructs, Outsiders, Giants, Undead, and any of the 'acceptable' creatures when you wander outside the defined restrictions within the spells specified by Greater Polymorph.

[Psyren]

Well, with the Pathfinder version of Polymorph Any Object, you get 'function not defined' when you try to do anything outside the scope of Greater Polymorph.

No, as I stated above this is false. PAO includes "except" and in the except, it opens the floodgates to all manner of objects and creatures. Greater Polymorph can't do a thing to objects for instance, but PAO explicitly can.

It's less "Function not Defined" and more "GM decides conversion factors and sets the duration based on that, but the sky is the limit otherwise."

[Jack_Simth]

No, as I stated above this is false. PAO includes "except" and in the except, it opens the floodgates to all manner of objects and creatures. Greater Polymorph can't do a thing to objects for instance, but PAO explicitly can.

It's less "Function not Defined" and more "GM decides conversion factors and sets the duration based on that, but the sky is the limit otherwise."
I said the result is "Function not defined," I did not say "You can't do that". The spell lets you, do such things, sure. But there's no definition for what happens. Thus, the result will vary WIDELY from one table to the next, to the point where it's not really worthwhile to discuss specifics (outside the context of a specific gaming table). Take an example:

Suppose you turn that 900 hp, 5-foot cube of granite (which you created by folding a Wall of Stone spell, and then separating from the ground with Stone Shape) into a Stone Golem.

Kingdom? Both mineral: +5 DF
Class? Both stone: +2 DF
Int? Both "-": +2 DF
+9 well and good... now what happens?

What's the strength score? What's the dexterity? What special abilities does the resulting creature have? How many hit dice is it treated as having? BAB? Saves? None of these are clearly defined. 3.5 had some of these questions clearly answered (Str / Dex / Con set to target creature; special abilites = Ex attacks only; HD, BAB, and saves left undefined just like Pathfinder). Pathfinder doesn't even give you any rough guidelines. OK, yes, the base score of the resultant critter is 10 for physical stuff, and 5 for mentals... umm... but there's no Construct Form X spell to determine the modifier after the base. Even if there were... it's not on the list for Greater Polymorph, so you're not taking the modifiers from it anyway.

So function undefined, even though the spell makes the function call. The specific results depend on the DM. Some will say "You can't do that, sorry." Others will say "OK, you get X, Y, and Z". However, specific results vary a LOT, so discussing what happens is essentially pointless (outside the context of a specific gaming table), as there's nothing resembling a usable RAW for this case.

[Psyren]

I said the result is "Function not defined," I did not say "You can't do that". The spell lets you, do such things, sure. But there's no definition for what happens. Thus, the result will vary WIDELY from one table to the next, to the point where it's not really worthwhile to discuss specifics (outside the context of a specific gaming table).

But that's the whole idea behind the spell, so I'm at a loss as to the specific point you're making. It's not supposed to "define" everything you can make, because it is literally a spell for turning anything into other thing. All they can hope to do are provide a handful of examples and the duration factors for each as a very rudimentary form of balance, and leave it up to the GM to make a decision about the appropriate duration for what the player is trying to do.

In short - yes, it's supposed to vary widely from table to table (though hopefully within the rather broad guidelines they've set up.) Yes, this is the unfortunate result of creating such a wide-open spell. And unless I'm mistaken, this spell is a holdover from prior editions and thus exists because people expected their powerful wizard to be able to do that.

[Bucky]

One day, an old man came to the wizard Thoron with his broom. "Thoron," he said, "I've spent the last forty years talking to this broom as I sweep my porch each morning. I wish, for just one afternoon, that it could talk back to me."

Thoron considered his request, then declared "I shall make it so." And he waved his hands, and poured a drop of specially prepared mercury onto the broom, and it became a fair maiden.

"Dear broom-maiden," said the old man, "would you sit with me and talk?"

"I've heard quite enough of your chatter," replied the maiden, and she turned back into a broom.

[Jack_Simth]

But that's the whole idea behind the spell, so I'm at a loss as to the specific point you're making. It's not supposed to "define" everything you can make, because it is literally a spell for turning anything into other thing. All they can hope to do are provide a handful of examples and the duration factors for each as a very rudimentary form of balance, and leave it up to the GM to make a decision about the appropriate duration for what the player is trying to do.

In short - yes, it's supposed to vary widely from table to table (though hopefully within the rather broad guidelines they've set up.) Yes, this is the unfortunate result of creating such a wide-open spell. And unless I'm mistaken, this spell is a holdover from prior editions and thus exists because people expected their powerful wizard to be able to do that.I'm not talking about the duration here. I'm talking about the effect.

Or to put it another way: What's the stat block after turning a "chip of stone into a great wyrm red dragon"? What is the attack bonus? What is the attack routine? What is the reflex save? What are the movement modes? What is the AC? CMB? CMD? Fort? Will? Initiative? Et cetera. With follow up questions of "Why that stat block?" and "Can you prove that's the right one?" Find even some actual guidelines for what it's supposed to do in such circumstances. If you stick within the specific abilities of Greater Polymorph, then you can answer at least some of them by assuming that any non-present attribute makes for a modifier of 0... but when you go outside that? You're pretty much sunk for anything remotely resembling consistency of results.

The spell theoretically lets you make the request. I'm not arguing that. But the result is a 404. What you'll get for the same attempted action will vary so incredibly widely between different DMs that there's really no point in discussing it outside the context of one specific DM.

[Psyren]

"Great wyrm red dragon" has a stat block for typical creatures of its kind. While you could probably tune your PAO to deviate from that, you'd have to justify it somehow.

And no, I disagree - just because you consider it not worthy of discussion doesn't mean everyone else should.

[Jack_Simth]

"Great wyrm red dragon" has a stat block for typical creatures of its kind. While you could probably tune your PAO to deviate from that, you'd have to justify it somehow.

And no, I disagree - just because you consider it not worthy of discussion doesn't mean everyone else should.
A standard great wyrm red dragon does, sure.

That's not how Pathfinder Polymorph works, though.

Pathfinder revamped the polymorph line pretty much completely. In 3.5, things were better defined (as far as PaO goes, anyway). Pathfinder polymorph is a set of spells that do sharply limited things - Beast Shape I-IV, Giant Form I and II, Alter Self, Form of the Dragon I-III, and so on. Each one turns you into a creature... but you get a very specific list of things from it (stat boosts - based on your normal scores - abilities based not just on the creature but on the specific version of the spell - using Beast Shape II to turn into a Dire Tiger and using Beast Shape III to turn into a Dire Tiger have different results (most notably for that specific example, Beast Shape III grants Rake, Beast Shape II does not). Your abilities are not directly set; they're modified based on the specific spell and form.

In 3.5, they were specifically set - Polymorph Any Object inherits from Polymorph... which grants type, subtype, Ex attacks, all physical ability scores, movement modes, et cetera with no particular limits.

Because of the lack of decent definition, however, you'll get crazy-wide variance with Polymorph Any Object when you use it outside the defined list in Greater Polymorph. One DM (you, apparently...) will just use the stat block of the critter from the final form, straight-up. Another will say all you get is the stuff spelled out in the polymorph subschool description... which is physical form only, pretty much (no Ex, Su, Sp; no type change, no stat boosts, no movement modes, et cetera). Another will say it's outside the power of the spell and the casting is wasted. Another will say you try for a Great Wyrm, but the spell doesn't have that much power, so you only get a medium-sized dragon (which is in range of Greater Polymorph - Form of the Dragon I). Another attempt to extrapolate from the existing Form of the Dragon tables to get up to a Colossal dragon. One will apply the base scores granted by PaO before the ones for size adjustment to small/medium; another, after.

Discussing it with your DM? Perfectly sensible. Anyone capable of casting the spell would reasonably know what it can do, and it makes sense to ask what to expect at the table. Outside the context of a specific table? Not so much.

[Psyren]

I'm not disagreeing with you that different tables will rule on the effects of the spell differently, I'm just wondering why that's a problem. I'm aware that PF changed the rules for how polymorph works, but PAO very intentionally breaks those very rules, so going back to statblocks (aside from the "all 10s and all 5s" for ability scores if you start from an object) is the most reasonable approach.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm not disagreeing with you that different tables will rule on the effects of the spell differently, I'm just wondering why that's a problem. I'm aware that PF changed the rules for how polymorph works, but PAO very intentionally breaks those very rules, so going back to statblocks (aside from the "all 10s and all 5s" for ability scores if you start from an object) is the most reasonable approach.
Among other things, that would make it significantly better than the 9th level Pathfinder spell Shapechange for most purposes. Nothing defined, so you get everything? As a 15th level Wizard, turn your familiar (or any creature under your control - yourself, a fellow PC, a cohort, a zombie, a follower, a simulacrum, whatever) into a Solar with Polymorph Any Object. You now have 20th level Cleric casting, lots of stat boosts, rather nice Regeneration and DR, some nice immunities, extremely good SR for the level, a large number of at-will and X/Day spell-like abilities (many of which have expensive components, multiple of which are 9ths!) available for a while at the cost of one 8th level core spell and a standard action. If you're using a mindless undead under your control, it also costs you a 3rd or 4th and 25 gp (trivially bypassed). If you plan ahead for this with race selection, it can even be permanent (an Aasimar Wizard with an Int of 23 by level 15 isn't overly difficult: Kingdom (animal), class (Outsider), Int (23)... although even if you just have the 1 week duration from Kingdom and Int, it might as well be permanent as you can recast it pretty easily when you've got a spare moment... or even just use the spell-like Wish to duplicate it periodically and let it replace the existing spell).

That is absurdly powerful for an 8th level spell, and requires only the core books. The 9th level spell Shapechange doesn't get you anywhere near that much raw power out of a form, and the calling function of Gate with it's 10,000 gp in components (ways to bypass it, but those have costs of their own and get multi-source) really only gets you that for a few rounds.

I'm sorry. I SEVERELY disagree with your concept of "most reasonable approach"

No. The effect isn't clearly defined, so you when you go outside the range of Greater Polymorph, you get just what the polymorph subschool says: Physical form of the beast including natural attacks, but no movement modes no Ex/Su/Sp abiltiies, no ability score increases, no resistances or immunities, no type change, et cetera. It's still a very useful spell, but it doesn't one-shot bump your minions up to CR 23 or more at 15th level.

That's how wide a range you'll get on interpretation of the spell.