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hellspawnfish
2015-08-27, 07:12 PM
So I recently acquired the dreaded 5th edition books and they rekindled in me the desire for something old-fashioned and cute. Like an orc horde.

The problem is my players are a bit on the genre-savvy side and they've seen quite a lot of orc hordes in their adventuring careers. I really want to make the storyline interesting in itself and not the 'oh great another orc plot to tide us over until we level up enough fight the REAL antagonists of the campaign'.

So I need advice. What I came up so far:

- Change the scenery. I'm torn at the moment between the great planes/steppe/maybe even desert setting and a swing in the other direction with an arctic setting.
- Change up their abilities. Have orcs from one clan use different weapons/fighting styles/even classes. Make the clan differences actually matter in the context of gameplay (I see this scout has blue ink tattoos on his forehead and is carrying a light spear, which identify him as clan X. I now know some useful things about the tactics I'm about to face with this particular scout/his friends, when he brings friends).
- Change up their magic. Give them some cool elemental-related abilities, or tech-related abilities (demonic cyber-implants anyone?), or blood-related abilities. I remember there was something in one of the Faerun numerous supplements in 3.5 about mages that work by etching the spells into their skins.
- Change up the religion. Because frankly, Gruumsh is boring. He was always boring, he will never be not boring.
- Refluff. The hordes as they're described in MM at the moment are good for what they're used for - low-level local-scope adventures meant to transition into something only tangentially orc-related. To make them work as the major campaign baddies and not the warm-up act they'd need to be a bit less one-dimensional. Maybe the race itself is a result of an ancient magic experiment and that's where they got their elemental powers. Maybe because of their savagery they can bind with the spirits of the land and now the land is turning against the humans. Maybe they're the only race hardy enough to survive in the Ye Olde Magical Wasteland (tm) and supply the rare and expensive phlebonitum the mages of the nearby citystates need to work the most potent magics. I frankly want to do all three of those refluffs now, omg >_<
- Some ambiguity? Maybe not all the orc clans turn on the humans? Not sure about that. At what point do orcs stop being orcs?

Sooo, any other advice for injecting some new life into orcs/orc-related campaign? Any orc war stories and interesting twists you came up with?

Grinner
2015-08-27, 07:51 PM
It sounds like you're on the right track; you've pretty much laid out the needed changes.

For the Gruumsh issue, you might try switching to some mixture of animism and ancestor worship, tailored to each clan's specific history.

BootStrapTommy
2015-08-27, 08:08 PM
Instead of generic Horde of Orc barbarians, wildly swinging axes and falchions willynilly in a blind rage, try a complex high steppes, nomadic equestrian society.

Instead of "Viking monster horde" go "Mongol monster horde". Horses (or equivalent), light/medium armors, lances, bows, and scimitars.

If you wanna desert instead of steppes, maybe make the garbs Middle Eastern flaired, for a Bedouin feel instead (orcs and hobbs are Bedouin inspired in my own campaign setting).

A fun thing to look up would be the Sha'ahoul from Siege of Avalon (obsure old Diablo clone). The Ahoul are orcs and the Shaman are human and together they have a complex equestrian society with Orc warriors, human casters (druidy spellcasters), and half-orc craftsman.

Oh, and they believe that farming, mining and "civilization" in general are an affront to their nature goddess, thus agrarian societies must be violently purged for their heresy (it's why they're the bad guys in Siege)! Nomad or die!

Basically you get the horde feel, but slightly novel with a solution to the Gruumsh issue. Specially given the improbability that any of them actually played Siege.

noob
2015-08-27, 08:09 PM
Orcs needs to kill the adventurers else they are going to stay boring for ever.
Making them a threat and putting the players at an edge where they have losses is really great.
Also for you orc hordes maybe try having some signs of distinction like you said but then put orcs having signs entirely independent of their true work for confusing the players and showing the orcs are not machines and can try to surprise.
Then the final thing is bow and arrows.
Give to all your orcs one bow and arrows(that they will draw when appropriate) and they instantly because truly scary because the players can not stand one instant in the line of sight of a group of orcs without risking of dying because of the numerous arrows flying toward them in fact in armies tactics in dnd 5 using a bow until your opponents charge in melee is a really good idea since changing weapons is super fast(even a free action if you let your bow fall and draw a weapon also since orcs are strong the carry limit is not going to be a problem unless they also use an armor).
Regrouping: the orcs should not be spread in their fortress they should be in one huge room most of the time with bows at the right places and some guards who counts who enters and exits for knowing if there is orcs that the players stealthy kills and then in this case all stay in the main room with their bows and arrows and then be one group roaming in the fortress with very very large corridors so that the players have no possibility to fight them once they did killed some orcs.

VoxRationis
2015-08-27, 08:34 PM
Instead of generic Horde of Orc barbarians, wildly swinging axes and falchions willynilly in a blind rage, try a complex high steppes, nomadic equestrian society.

Instead of "Viking monster horde" go "Mongol monster horde". Horses (or equivalent), light/medium armors, lances, bows, and scimitars. Maybe make the garbs Middle Eastern flaired, for a Bedouin feel instead (orcs and hobbs are Bedouin inspired in my own campaign setting).

A fun thing to look up would be the Sha'ahoul from Siege of Avalon (obsure old dungeon crawler RPG). The Ahoul are orcs and the Shaman are human and together they have a complex equestrian society with Orc warriors, human casters (druidy spellcasters), and half-orc craftsman.

Oh, and they believe that farming, mining and "civilization" in general are an affront to their nature goddess, thus agrarian societies must be violently purged for their heresy (its why they're the bad guys in Siege)! Nomad or die!

Basically you get the horde feel, but slightly novel with a solution to the Gruumsh issue. Specially given the improbability that any of them actually played Siege.

Eh, this approach gets into the "when do orcs stop being orcs" problem. "Noble savage with proud and ancient traditions" is what you have human barbarians for. Orcs are there for being monsters.
I myself would go into making the orc hordes seem unstoppable. Make them just a little better at tactics—so they don't blindly rush into ambushes or against fortifications 100% of the time—and emphasize their prodigious rate of reproduction. Have generals remark about how the human (or elven or dwarven) forces have suffered significant attrition, but the orcs seem to have replaced almost all of their losses just fine. Start bringing in moral questions like "would targeting the orcish women to lower their reinforcement rate be an acceptable strategy?" Meanwhile, the orcs press up against all the safe refuges the players used in the early parts of the campaign. The wizard finds he no longer has a good place to scribe scrolls or copy spells, because they can't be assured of safety in a civilized place for more than a day or so. The party has to try to coordinate a resistance, leading armies in action after action, trying to avoid getting pinned down or losing too many defenders.

BootStrapTommy
2015-08-27, 09:14 PM
Eh, this approach gets into the "when do orcs stop being orcs" problem. "Noble savage with proud and ancient traditions" is what you have human barbarians for. Orcs are there for being monsters.
There's nothing noble about the Sha'ahoul. The whole "religiously wish to destroy everything your entire civilization is built on and slaughter your people for the sin that they dared be different and attempt to create the novel and unnatural while eking out more than a minimal existence from the natural order" pretty solidly puts the Sha'ahoul in the realm of "traditional monsters". "Threats to society" usually are. And genocidal maniacs have a tendency to lean that way. Even the human ones. Having something more than a primitive society does not rob them of the quality of being definitively Evil from the PCs' perspective.

Interestingly enough, the backstory of Siege of Avalon reads an awful lot like the very scenerio you suggested. A quickly advancing, seemingly unstoppable threat advancing to where nowhere seems safe and all attempts at defense feel ultimately futile.

Until, of course, they get to Avalon, the Fortress of Kings. And Taberland's boy King wins his civil war and marches with relief forces on Avalon (classic "holdout until dawn" scenario).

Flickerdart
2015-08-27, 10:26 PM
Orcs are boring because they're mooks in pretty much every work that includes them. They tend to be weak both individually (with poor equipment, and low levels) and as a society (with no industry, little in the way of meaningful strongholds or organized armies). In order to avoid the "not-orc orcs" issue, I would only change one side of the equation.

Option 1: Orcs are just as weak as any other race's typical member - but also just as organized, perhaps even more so. Orc society is much more militarized than others, due to any number of reasons, not just in terms of a large standing army for their population but also high-quality weapons, powerful magic, and so forth. I'm liking the steppe nomad parallels - make the orcs the Huns or Mongols. They care nothing for capturing nobles and holding them for ransom, or seizing castles for their petty lords. The orcs ride for blood and glory, and leave behind only hoofprints in ashes.

Option 2: Orc society is loosely organized and on the fringes of the important, civilized world. But they reject civilization intentionally, because living on the fringes has made them powerful. In your typical "ruins of an ancient civilization scattered in the savage wilds" scenario, the orcs are pretty much the only race crazy and skilled enough to explore. As a result, the overwhelming majority of adventurers are orcs or half-orcs. When they attack, it's not a sea of faceless soldiers, but squad after squad of special forces teams that takes out key leaders, sabotages gates, releases demons inside cities, and so on.

Eisenheim
2015-08-27, 10:59 PM
consider making the orc horde more like the 'barbarian' hordes that eventually broke the roman empire: an entire society on the move, willing to incorporate most of the people they roll over, looking for a rich and fertile land to settle in. Less mindless destruction, more forcing their way into the heartland of the more civilized races because it's nicer than where the orcs live.

Balmas
2015-08-27, 11:25 PM
Eh, this approach gets into the "when do orcs stop being orcs" problem. "Noble savage with proud and ancient traditions" is what you have human barbarians for. Orcs are there for being monsters.

If you'll forgive me saying, I despise this thinking.

"Orcs are there for being monsters." Says who? Yeah, the monster manual says, but we don't have to follow that. The source materials are tools to help our game, not rules that we have to rigidly follow. Why can't orcs be deeply religious, or wandering nomads, or expert pioneers? Hell, maybe the orcs are highly developed and industrialized; they roam far afield, have powerful items, and get weaker if you disrupt their supply lines. Yes, it's a very different idea of Orcs, but that's pretty much exactly what OP is asking for.

Refluff your orcs. I like the idea of them coming as a religious force to wipe out the polluting, unnatural races. But there are other ideas to play with. Maybe they're fleeing their homeland, an inhospitable Fantasy Australia where everything wants to kill you, eat you, make you swell up with poison, tear you apart, not necessarily in that order. Maybe they're highly religious; give them a powerful figure, an avatar of the stars, to direct them in their holy war. Their clergy is massive, and every battle group has at least one cleric to drop a few buffs before they enter battle.

Touching on that, give your orcs tactics. They don't have to be "WAAAAAAAGH" Run into battle against Conan mooks. Maybe there are different squads trained to use different weapons.
-One group is mounted cavalry, or worse, mounted archers.
-There are skirmishers with ranged weapons, who weaken up the party until they start moving in, at which point they withdraw, let the melee beatsticks do their thing, and continue firing into melee.
-Clerics/Adepts buff groups before they go into battle, and the group moves to protect the cleric when the PCs start targeting him. If the cleric falls, the orcs suffer a huge blow to their morale, and maybe they run away.
-Battlemages fly over the battlefield, coordinating the attack, relaying instructions and reports to and from the central leader. Occasionally, they'll fire down a fireball, or stone shape a wall around the PCs, etc.
-Or maybe there isn't a central leader; each squad of orcs is a self-contained unit, guerilla warbands that strike and vanish as needed.
-The Orcs have tamed some kind of beast, and are using it in battle. Think Lord of the Ring Oliphaunts: a massive beast, carrying a big capsule full of archers.

Make each battle feel unique, while also allowing your PCs to learn some common tactics among the group.

Vercingex
2015-08-28, 12:47 AM
I am of the opinion that it is important to distinguish the various monstrous humanoids from each other culturally and characteristically. Goblins are cowardly, hobgoblins regimented, gnolls organize in packs, kobolds are trap making nightmares, etc. The traditional Orc is characteristically aggressive, with a penchant for immediate action over planning- they're less stupid and more impatient. I feel it's important to maintain that character, regardless of what other tweaks are made.

I have been thinking of the Orc horde problem, and have a few ideas to share. First, Orcs are cunning, but not great planners. They shouldn't walk into obvious traps, but their strategies should be simplistic- a basic flanking maneuver is probably as much of a plan as their lack of organization allows. Secondly, I would think about whether individual orcs would rather test their strength against a strong foe, or just go for the easy slaughter. I can easily imagining most of the orcs bee lining past the fighter to slay the wizard. That should keep the PCs on their toes. This principle can also apply to large groups of orcs, as they bypass fortifications and blocking positions to slaughter helpless civilians. This can even work in the orcs favour, as it forces the army opposing the horde to extend itself to protect civilians, putting it at risk of defeat by the horde.

Another approach is to think of horde logistics. Considering how fast orcs grow and breed, and how active they are, the food needs of a horde are enormous. The orcs should constantly be looking for sources of food. They probably supplement their looting and foraging by keeping some livestock. Thinking about the orcs basic needs helps informs their actions.

Finally, a fun twist on Orc women might be to base them on the women of Germanic tribes as described in several accounts from the Roman republic. These women would gather behind their men on a battlefield, screaming encouragement. Reportedly, they would sometimes murder any man who fled from the battlefield with whatever was at hand. I can easily imagine Orc women doing this. Orcs are patriarchal, and obsessed with strength. The Orc women buy into this system, partly because they have little choice, and partly because they too believe in strength as a virtue. Any male Orc showing weakness in front of his female(s) better watch out.

LudicSavant
2015-08-28, 01:32 AM
Change up the religion. Because frankly, Gruumsh is boring. He was always boring

I did this in a pretty big way in one of my games, where I completely overhauled the "classic" pantheon to be something completely different.

In it, Corellon Larethian, Moradin, and Gruumsh were the three kings of the gods (Sort of like the big three brothers in Greek mythology: Hades, Zeus, and Poseidon). Each represented a major force of nature as well as one of the major aspects of civilization. Each was a master of war and worshiped by many races (e.g. Moradin isn't just a dwarf god, Corellon isn't just an elf god, etc).

They looked like this:
http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2013/338/7/f/the_forge_master_by_albyu-d6wop2f.jpg
Theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP9I8ZUwKpc
http://s10.postimg.org/rphhf7vix/Corellon2.jpg
Theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_otf-mQyL0
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110303052949/lordofarcana/images/thumb/c/ce/Takemikazuchi.jpg/500px-Takemikazuchi.jpg
Theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuZmGQWAOu4
and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWXazVhlyxQ
Moradin forged the earth, Corellon sowed it with seeds and blood, and Gruumsh wrapped it in sky.

Moradin represents labor and the skilled middle class. Corellon represents nobility, "high culture," and an empowered upper class. Gruumsh represents the underclass as well as non-stratified societies. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acephalous_society)

Their natural aspects tied in with this as well. The earth only gives up its bounties with hard physical labor. Life gives up its services with the application of social acumen and leverage. The sky provides a roof of stars over every head, the wind blows where it will, and the rain blesses the land of its own accord.

Originally, they all got along and worked together to create the world. Eventually, their relationships soured. Gruumsh came to believe that the social stratification of "civilized" cultures were a corruption of true society, and that the regimes of Corellon and Moradin were unnecessary (and, indeed, an impediment) for mortal society to truly flourish. He rebelled (with the help of Lolth, who respected his sense of honor), and as a result their followers were defeated and banished to awful badlands where nobody else wanted to live. Places where they had to struggle in harsh conditions to survive.

http://spe.fotolog.com/photo/46/11/91/forgotten_realms/1180651290_f.jpg
Corellon Larethian looks a lot less foppish when he takes the gloves off.

Gruumsh never sleeps. He is He Who Never Sleeps because he is filled with a fury borne of a cause which will not permit him rest. A dream which many believe is truly just even as many others believe it is mad or vile: The complete downfall of stratified societies and the rise of a new kind of culture, a dream of a non-stratified society that can be maintained even for very large, unified nations. A world beyond artificial scarcity or cronyism. That's the heaven a savage war-priest of Gruumsh fights for.

This actually contributes even more to the demonization and ostracization of Gruumsh-worshipping orcs from many other races and cultures, because of the fear that that sort of rhetoric could incite peasant revolts and the like.



- Change up their abilities. Have orcs from one clan use different weapons/fighting styles/even classes. Make the clan differences actually matter in the context of gameplay (I see this scout has blue ink tattoos on his forehead and is carrying a light spear, which identify him as clan X. I now know some useful things about the tactics I'm about to face with this particular scout/his friends, when he brings friends).

A major point worth emphasizing even more: Don't make your orcs monolithic! Every tribe should have its own cultural spin, its own specializations, its own flair, its own roles. As soon as you establish (by showing, not telling) that players can't use a general vague stereotype to judge what they're dealing with, things become a good deal more interesting... and encourages players to actually investigate your world instead of just assuming things about it.

Also, giving your monsters clever and genuinely threatening tactics will immediately make them interesting to your players as well. Thus, adding some details besides "they cry WAAAGH and charge" is definitely a good idea.

NRSASD
2015-08-28, 02:04 AM
Love the idea of different tribes meaning having different stats. There's a lot of potential there, especially when you start deploying the small fringe tribes that the rank and file orcs have campfire horror stories about but the PCs have never seen before. Personally, I'd rather stay away from the cybernetic implants, but blood magic, lycanthropic beserkers, sorcerers, assassins, and psionicists are all fair game.

In my setting, the orcs (and goblinoids in general) are effectively the stereotypical neanderthals. They share a common ancestor with humans, and evolved alongside one another. The humans got organized faster, and with the help of the Elves, pushed the goblinoids into the barren moors. They destroyed the Orcs' young and rising nation and formed several kingdoms of their own over the ruins of the old. While this is ancient history for the humans, the goblinoids neither forgot nor forgave them; keeping the fires of hatred burning bright with an extensive oral tradition of the glories and fall of Orthalos. Thus the orcs aren't any more savage than the humans, just less advanced and driven by the need to repay the humans for obliterating their nation and forcing them into the wastes.

Recently, the goblinoids have been quiet along the border while the humans fight a civil war because they're mustering the largest horde on record surreptitiously. This horde isn't out to sack and raid, but to conquer and exterminate those who purged them from their homelands long ago. Blood calls for blood as they say, and the orcs intend to wash away their debt with a veritable ocean.

NNescio
2015-08-28, 03:21 AM
A tribe of Orc Magi among the hordes.

It Sat Rap
2015-08-28, 03:40 AM
Give the orcs a reason to attack the humans instead of just "We kill because we are Orcs, huuuurrrr!"

Maybe the tribal chief is possesed by a demon, maybe they got expelled from their homeland by another thread, maybe a drought forced them to leave their homeland and they look for new place to stay. Don't make them stupid evil, make their actions understandable. By this way the players have more options to solve the problem. For example: They could offer their help to the orcs to conquer their homeland back, if the orcs in return won't attack the humans or other races any longer. The players still have the option to fight the orcs, of course.

JellyPooga
2015-08-28, 04:52 AM
Don't forget that in 5ed, Orcs are fast. That extra 30ft a turn from Aggressive means they'll be on you before you know it. That makes rallying a defence against Orc raiders a tricky thing; hard to get people organised when there's Orcs all over your position.

Perhaps including this into their culture could be a thing. At a dead sprint, they can't quite keep pace with a horse (90ft vs. 120ft using the Dash action), but with a little assistance (e.g. from Longstrider or the Mobile Feat), they can bump that up (with both, they can sprint 150ft/round...that's approaching Olympic 100m-Sprint fast, except they can do it in armour). Maybe have cavalry seen as somewhat "unmanly" or "dishonourable"; if you fall behind, stay behind, sort of thing.

Being that fast would, I think, encourage guerrilla tactics; lightning raids, hit-and-run. Small, fast-moving bands rather than massed hordes. Have the "Horde" actually be a series of independent cells spread over a huge area; an infestation that you can't eradicate in one fell swoop. Every time you take out a cell, another one pops up a week later.

Have it be something of a mystery to the PC's where all these Orcs keep coming from;
-- Is there a secret underground city of Orcs that reinforces the surface raiders?
-- Are they coming in from another Plane?
--Is there some Orc Shaman with a magical resurrection/healing device (See the Tuatha DeDanaan myths for one such example).
-- Do Orcs just procreate at an extraordinary rate?

Just some thoughts.

Nifft
2015-08-28, 06:52 AM
IMHO to make Orcs something interesting, they need an interesting origin and ecology.

If they're monsters, then NOT just normal humanoid breeding with biology and genetics. Being biological is fine if you're going to treat them AS PEOPLE, but if they're primarily monsters, then they ought to have some kind of monstrous origin.

For example:

Khullkhanska, the Rage Dragon, still cuts a burning swath across the plains of the North. Wherever her rage takes her, some newly spawned (and thus weak-minded) nature spirits are caught up in her overwhelming passion, and transform into purely physical beings which manifest the echos of her hate. Sometimes even immature humans are caught up in her rage as they sleep, and partially transformed (into half-orcs).

Those former-spirits who drink deeply of mortal blood, and grow mighty in battle, may grow physically and become ogres or ogre-magi.


There. Now you've got some guilt-free orc stabbing, no orc babies or women to cause moral issues later, and you've got a high-level goal ("stop the orcs at their origin by dealing with the Rage Dragon").

Cikomyr
2015-08-28, 07:05 AM
Give them Bards with every unit for attack and damage bonuses. Also have Orc Druids helping them out (theres a reason an Orc Horde can survive in bad environment), and quite a number of Rangers.

You can turn them into a genuine threat if you make them a real culture instead of generic Warrior bullseyes.

It wouldnt be a bad idea to have a number of Orc Warlocks as well.

noob
2015-08-28, 07:06 AM
The thread creator said he wanted the orcs to be the main plot and not say "there is a powerful creature behind" he wants the orc society to be the problem.
he wants the orc empire as the final opponent not a magical kitten completely unrelated to orcs except that he magically spawn some of them.
Also like I said giving bows and arrows to all the orcs helps since there is no action cost to drop your bow and draw out your contact weapon.

LudicSavant
2015-08-28, 07:29 AM
Eh, this approach gets into the "when do orcs stop being orcs" problem. "Noble savage with proud and ancient traditions" is what you have human barbarians for. Orcs are there for being monsters.

The Warcraft video game franchise seems to have built its entire core plot around disagreeing with this premise. It seems to have done more than just alright for itself. In fact, its orcs may well be more iconic in popular culture than Tolkien's now.

So, you know, there's that.

Actually...

- Terry Pratchett (orcs are victims of the propaganda of the victors, Nutt is a pretty nice guy)
- Blake (orcs are a positive figure, the embodiment of rebellion)
- Nichols (orcs are the main characters, the story is told through their perspective)
- Warcraft (Orcs are complex characters, definitely not just monsters)
- The Elder Scrolls (Same thing)
- Earthdawn (Same thing)
- Shadowrun (Same thing)
- Might and Magic (Orcs are created by wizards as weapons to use against demons and later enslaved. They eventually declare themselves free and rebel against their masters)
- Mythology (A kind of dwarf in Alpine folklore that does stuff like warn the noble game of hunters)

Annnd...

- Tolkien (According to TvTropes, "Tolkien's Orcs are of debatable morality; however, while not 'peaceful', they are mostly driven by their fear of Sauron or Morgoth.")

It seems to me like an awful lot of popular fiction disagrees that orcs stop being orcs if they aren't just there for being monsters.

Tvtyrant
2015-08-28, 07:40 AM
My solution to this problem was to give the Orcs transformative cults. The Orcs tend to admire strength in any form, and are very prone to fragment and divide into smaller lodges and tribes based on disagreements over leadership and doctrine.

The result of this is the Orcs of the wilds tend to accept being led by and changed into monsters very frequently. Werewolf Orcs, vampire Orcs, Wight Orcs, mineral Orcs, etc.

So a tribe of Orcs might have a vampire leading it and several of the strongest members made into vampires while the rest of the tribe remains Orcs and serves them. One day the cost of keeping the vampires fed becomes too great for some of the Orcs, and they splinter off and join a band of werebears who will protect them from their former leader in return for them raising sheep. The strongest Orcs now become werebears and perpetuate the tribe until the leader of the vampires defeats the leader of the werebears, and instead of killing her demands that she assist on an attack into human lands. The werebear leader accepts and the warriors are organized for an invasion.

Hawkstar
2015-08-28, 07:46 AM
You could always make them silly!

First off - prohibit or highly restrict the Orcish language - there should be no direct communication at all. Any attempt at indirect communication should be interpretted or depicted as hostile.

Start with simple orcs in an appropriately threatening but not darkly overwhelming horde, but have a few encounters be with small bands of orcs working alongside the archer-orc Roc-eye, assassin orc Black Widorc, and shield-using Captain Orcmerica* (But don't give away their names). Those three should be leading covorct/special orcperations missions deep within The Threatened Kingdom, and should have engaging, unique mechanics. Roc-eye, for example, uses his bow to try to stay out of range, and has trick arrows to control the battlefield. Black Widorc is a lurker who uses the chaos her allies provide to slip in and out of the fight, forcing the players to balance their attention between keeping track of her and handling the other orcs in the encounter. Captain Orcmerica, in contrast to those, does his best to keep the party's attention, gets 3 reactions per round, has the benefits of the Sentinel Feat, and his hits (Even from his thrown ricochet shield) impose disadvantage on the first attack anyone makes against anyone that's not him (But he loses significant AC any round he throws his shield)

The Incredible Horc (an Orc that grows in size and strength the angrier or more challenged he is, to a maximum Strength of 32 at Colossal size. That's right - his Strength Modifier goes to 11), and the storm-slinging bruiser, the Mighty Thorc also need to be introduced as interesting antagonists and leaders of the Orc horde. If you're good, you can almost hide what you're doing here from the players.

Eventually, though, you turn on the silly. Have Tony Storck and a bunch of Pro Skatorcs attack the party in a city, riding their Skateswords (Greatswords that work like Skateboards, and give dynamic and unique mechanics to the fight). It should be a two-part battle - first mostly targeting the party in a large, busy plaza, then after they've lost a quarter or half their number, they should take off down the streets in a bloody high-speed chase targetting civilians and guards (The party needs to take a cart or two to keep up). Make sure Tony Storck dies to a wound to the heart, so he can later come back as the Green+Red-armored, flying, laser-shooting Invincible Orichalcum Orc.

After the Pro Skatorc encounter, you can introduce Helorcopter infantry - Orcs that use double-axes, and fly by spinning them over their heads. The spinning, flying axe technology is from the newly-formed Orc Enterprises, giving Orcs a technorclogical edge over The Kingdom, run by the revived Tony Storck. Then, introduce Helorcopters... foreshadowing the Final Battle with ALL the Orcvengers aboard the Orcvenger's Helorcarrier.

*When Captain Orcmerica throws his his mighty shield all who oppose his shield must yield! When the time is right and the battle's alight The red, green and white will carry the fight When Captain Orcmerica throws his his mighty shield!

noob
2015-08-28, 09:20 AM
My solution to this problem was to give the Orcs transformative cults. The Orcs tend to admire strength in any form, and are very prone to fragment and divide into smaller lodges and tribes based on disagreements over leadership and doctrine.

The result of this is the Orcs of the wilds tend to accept being led by and changed into monsters very frequently. Werewolf Orcs, vampire Orcs, Wight Orcs, mineral Orcs, etc.

So a tribe of Orcs might have a vampire leading it and several of the strongest members made into vampires while the rest of the tribe remains Orcs and serves them. One day the cost of keeping the vampires fed becomes too great for some of the Orcs, and they splinter off and join a band of werebears who will protect them from their former leader in return for them raising sheep. The strongest Orcs now become werebears and perpetuate the tribe until the leader of the vampires defeats the leader of the werebears, and instead of killing her demands that she assist on an attack into human lands. The werebear leader accepts and the warriors are organized for an invasion.

This prevents the orcs from being the ultimate villains they are instead under the orders of another kind of being.
the person who first posted does not wants the orcs to be manipulated by other beings(in addition it is not even sightly original as it happens very often)

"The problem is my players are a bit on the genre-savvy side and they've seen quite a lot of orc hordes in their adventuring careers. I really want to make the storyline interesting in itself and not the 'oh great another orc plot to tide us over until we level up enough fight the REAL antagonists of the campaign'. "
So he does not wants the orcs to be entities who are under the control of bigger antagonists he wants them to be the true antagonists.

Cikomyr
2015-08-28, 09:26 AM
You could always go to the inevitable conclusion of Lord of the Ring's industrialized orcs:

They have guns. They have engines. They are more advanced than the players.

The orcs are no longer a savage horde, but a Colonialist Expedition. They come to plunder, conquer and convert you savages.

AceOfFools
2015-08-28, 11:03 AM
One way you could make a campaign against an orcish horde interesting (and this works on top of all other suggestions) is to treat them as a catalyst for other adventure.

For example, with the bulk of a nations army on the front, there is room for whoever left behind at home to spring up as a petty tyrant, maybe unofficially leave the kingdom. Bandits and other monsters beaten back by regular patrols start preying on the un-or under protected homestead.

Half the adventure is fighting back the horde, half getting or keeping the non-orc nations from killing each other.

This can form a strong narrative if paired with the diverse clans method mentioned above.

Maybe the horde is simply to big or to well organized or to strong for the human armies to ever defeat by force of arms alone. The only way to defeat them is to cause them to turn on themselves. The adventure becomes a shell game of convincing clan X that clan Y stole a supply train heading for them, when really it was offered as a bride clan Z to lure their rivals among clan S into a trap.

The main thing, though, is going to be putting a lot of work in to make the orcs your own. Building (slightly perhaps) different stat blocks for different tribes or even troop types, officers and commanders. Without making a lot of new stat blocks you are much limited in how interesting a horde could be.

Tvtyrant
2015-08-28, 11:08 AM
This prevents the orcs from being the ultimate villains they are instead under the orders of another kind of being.
the person who first posted does not wants the orcs to be manipulated by other beings(in addition it is not even sightly original as it happens very often)
So he does not wants the orcs to be entities who are under the control of bigger antagonists he wants them to be the true antagonists.

I think you misunderstand me. If an Orc vampire running an Orc tribe is an outsider, or an Orc werebear, or an Orc half-fiend, then basically almost all human villains are actually inhuman. Orcs live in a world where humanoids are naturally too weak to live, having them modify themselves to be stronger easily is a natural explanation of how they survive. If for some reason they need to be just Orcs with no subgroups or special abilities then they need to basically be bigger Kobolds and have hindreds of kids a year to survive.

Hawkstar
2015-08-28, 11:56 AM
I think you misunderstand me. If an Orc vampire running an Orc tribe is an outsider, or an Orc werebear, or an Orc half-fiend, then basically almost all human villains are actually inhuman. Orcs live in a world where humanoids are naturally too weak to live, having them modify themselves to be stronger easily is a natural explanation of how they survive. If for some reason they need to be just Orcs with no subgroups or special abilities then they need to basically be bigger Kobolds and have hindreds of kids a year to survive.I am not aware that my God-killing level 35 Paladin is actually some sort of non-human.

Nonseriously - those 'power-boosting' templates are not worth the ECL adjustments they carry. Those Orcvengers I suggested are almost 100% Orc. Except for the Incredible Horc. He's got some sort of superpower or something.

Another option is to double-down on Gruumsh, and how Orcs carry an existential debt to him. Possibly kill the big guy, and have The Kingdom be responsible for the assassination (Possibly out of the misguided notion that it would free the orcs of his will) of said god, and turning the surviving orcs to an implacable thirst for vengeance against the entire kingdom - Had Gruumsh been slain in battle, well... it's a fair cop. Had he been assassinated by a lone agent, the vengeance would have stopped at his death. But instead, it may have been carried out by a 'hero'... but under the orders and backing of the then-ruler of the kingdom. But the only power that king had, as head of the state, was that given to him from the consent of the millions of governed. The hero was the hand that struck the blow... but it was the king who was the head that guided it... and all the 'innocent civilians' are the blood that powered and fed that head, and the whole body must die for the Orcs to feel avenged (all orcs - even those that had turned from him to explore life differently, are called to avenge his death). The orcs that refuse to avenge their fallen creator (Or seek to revive him) find the privilege he gave them spontaneously revoked. So now you have a conflict that, through divine power, can only end with the entire extermination of one side or the other.

Nifft
2015-08-28, 12:11 PM
Nonseriously - those 'power-boosting' templates are not worth the ECL adjustments they carry. Those Orcvengers I suggested are almost 100% Orc. Except for the Incredible Horc. He's got some sort of superpower or something.

He merely has superior orc powers.

Suporc powers, one might even say.

Hawkstar
2015-08-28, 12:27 PM
Suporc powers, one might even say.
Dammit... how did I fail to think of that one first?

Nifft
2015-08-28, 01:17 PM
Dammit... how did I fail to think of that one first?

Is it because you're a bird-brain? :wink:

- - -

Anyway, one last thought: steal the idea behind the Reavers from Firefly / Serenity.

Orcs are former humans who did ... something. They transformed, or were transformed. That means you'll get orcs of all backgrounds and levels, and the thing you need to fix is not the "orc menace", but rather the socio-economic realities which are causing people to choose the Orc lifestyle.



:thog: thog not choose ork lyfe, ork lyfe choose thog.

BootStrapTommy
2015-08-28, 01:22 PM
Mechanical suggestions:

Simple early game Orc strategies: Use the Eye of Gruumsh and Orog as your base stated Orcs, instead of the basic Orc. Always include an Orc chieftain in a group. Vary their weapons, especially adding ranged and reach weapons. Add shields to chieftains wielding one handed weapons. Make the orcs less reckless, more tactical (flank, use terrain, etc.).

Simple late game: stat out appropriate leveled generic half-orc characters, then add the "Aggressive" trait that every Orc in the MM seems to have. Include healing clerics and druids. A Beast Master ignoring the size limit on animal companions makes a great cavalry archer. Continue varying weapons and tactics. Vary martial classes within any one group of Orcs.

Joe the Rat
2015-08-28, 01:59 PM
- Change up their abilities. Have orcs from one clan use different weapons/fighting styles/even classes. Make the clan differences actually matter in the context of gameplay (I see this scout has blue ink tattoos on his forehead and is carrying a light spear, which identify him as clan X. I now know some useful things about the tactics I'm about to face with this particular scout/his friends, when he brings friends).
Lazy DM advice: More Orc variation would help make the horde less homogenous, and more chaotic. Fortunately, there's a whole stack of different orcs in that there Monster Manual, each with subtypes. Psycho Rage Orcs (orcs), Regimented Disciplined Orcs (hobgoblins), Scrawny Skulker Orcs (Medium-sized goblins), Insane Mutant Amphibious Orcs (Sauhag Sahshagh Sugelala Kuo-Toa), Creepy Serpent Cult Orcs (Yuan Ti)... You even have a couple of different "giant" orc options: bugbears, ettins, oni...

Giving the orcs a variety of banners - and tribe totems or favored deities or whatnot - would make them less standard. Each will fight a little different (PROs are all run and smash and don't fall down, RDOs work better in groups, CSCOs use poisoned weapons (and turn into snakes, but that never helps), etc. A little variation in dress, choice of weapon, language, skin color, etc. makes them distinct and distinctive. As implied with the IMAOs, you could throw a little magical mutagen at the lot... which might have something to do with why all these crazies are stomping into "civilized" lands en masse: Their lands are no longer habitable. It also gives you something besides Religion (Our gods hate everyone) or WAAAAUGH! to motivate them. And a future plot hook.

The differences between groups also gives you an opportunity to create schisms in the ranks. Maybe you can persuade one of the chiefs that this would be a good time to attack their hated rivals, as they are getting all beat up attacking the castle. While you might not have a "bigger bad behind the horde," there are going to be major leaders, if not an actual Boss Orc involved. But killing the head doesn't mean you win. It might make it easier to divide and conquer without the Great Unifier, but now instead of a single mass, you have multiple armies, each with their own agendas, attacking you all at once.

JW86
2015-08-28, 02:10 PM
I'm not familiar with 5th ed, but how is this for a poorly fleshed out but kind of fun idea.

Frequently, orcs are psionically gifted. These psionic orcs are referred to as 'Freaks' by the other orcs.

Orcs discovered ancient underground Warforged factory. The psionic orcs find a way to control/command/dominate the Warforged.

They are set to building warforged juggernauts, large mechas etc.

There you go, Orcs riding mechas. The mechas could only respond to the psionic orcs, ignoring the general raable. Despite this, all the orcs cling onto the giant metallic frames of these mechas, shouting commands in an excited frenzy.

Vercingex
2015-08-28, 03:58 PM
I think that if the aim is to make orcs an interesting central focus of a campaign, one approach would be to make them multidimensional, which can be done with or without reinventing the wheel.

The reason orcs are so aggressive is probably due to fierce competition for resources, due to their high birth rate. Food in particular is always scarce, and orcs are forced to range far and wide searching for food, often bringing them into conflict with other humanoids (or even other orc clans).

What if a particularly insightful orc chieftain in charge of a large horde decides to try negotiating
with the neighboring humanoids for arable land, and knowledge of how to farm. This simple goal could be fraught with complications. On the orcish side, it might be difficult for the chieftain's subordinates might not be happy with a more sedentary lifestyle, preferring to live by the old ways of pillage and conquest. For his part, the orc chieftain doesn't have complete control over his subordinates- orcs are chaotic by nature.

As for the other side, the humanoids the chieftain is negotiating with would be reluctant at best to negotiate with them. Centuries of distrust, hatred, and fear prevent any kind of trust. And some individuals fear that giving orcs farming would result in an orc population boom that would eventually overrun the region. This could easily be the plot for an entire campaign.

Bulhakov
2015-08-28, 04:03 PM
Last time I used orcs in my campaigns I went for the "mongol horde" theme and added some moral ambiguity through the "noble savages"/"Russians love their children too" tropes.

Some of the stuff I introduced:
- the orcs rode on big bison-like creatures with ram horns
- the orcs didn't mindlessly slaughter, they extorted tribute (mainly in the form of food, wine, spices and magic items) from all villages and towns neighboring with the great steppe, some also did mercenary work
- the horde was made up of many nomadic clans, which traveled as whole "mobile villages" with lots of orc women and children (in my adventure the players had to break a hostage out of one of these villages... they spotted her playing in the fields with orc children)
- each clan had a shaman with some typical animal-bonding druidic powers (e.g. scrying through the eyes of crows)
- many orcs were blood-bonded with their mounts and could transfer some wounds to them (telepathic communication with the animal and a pretty big HP buffer that could transfer HP by touch)
- the orcs didn't stupidly fight to the death - they honored a tradition that if a clan was defeated in combat it would take a magical blood oath to follow the orders of whomever defeated them for a year

Jay R
2015-08-28, 04:28 PM
In original D&D, you rolled for a possible leader of an orc horde, who was not an orc. It might be a 7th-9th level Fighter ("Fighting Man"), and 11th level wizard ("Magic-User"), a Balor ("Balrog"), a Dragon. 1-6 ogres, or 1-4 trolls.

Note how they were kept fresh in the Lord of the Rings movies:
1. "They have a cave troll."
2. "What new devilry is this?"
3. Uruk-hai
4. "Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys."
5. Blowing up the wall at Helm's Deep
6. Led by Nazgul, and accompanied by trolls and Mumakil.
7. Living near a giant spider.

SkipSandwich
2015-08-28, 05:30 PM
I once had the idea to import 40k orks with all their technology and weaponry directly into a typical DnD setting. Ork contraptions would be prized by scholars and wizards who would spend hours pouring over how they work in a fruitless attempt to reverse-engineer them. (For those unfamilliar with the source, Ork technology literally ONLY functions as a by-product of orks psychic ability and their own delusion that they SHOULD work. Orks only have to reload as often as they remember that guns require bullets to fire, thier planes can fly through space so long as nobody questions how propellers work in a vacuum, so on and so forth).

hellspawnfish
2015-08-28, 05:33 PM
Oh wow, a lot of great ideas, thanks guys. Really loved the suporcheroes :D Not the tone I'm going for in this particular campaign, but that will go into the dm notebook for the comedy game ;) Also loved the Moradin/Corellon/Gruumsh write-up, even though I still think vanilla DnD gods are pretty boring >_> And thanks for all the tactics advice! Tactics advice is great!


I did some more brainstorming and decided to stop on the Ye Olde Magical Desert/Phlebonitum hunters idea, with a religion reworking too. All orcs will have weird magical powers, but those fade to almost nothingness as they exit the badlands to trade. The mages living next to the phlebonitum supply are all very proud of themselves for being smarter than the savages who can't do anything with the riches they possess... And then the orc horde shows up having developed arcanotech that's way beyond what people have anywhere else, and all their magical talents are now permanent/significantly enhanced. And they're pissed because the reason their land is now a Ye Olde Magical Desert is the humans/other races made it that way. Humans forgot, of course (elves didn't forget but pretend they did) but orcs didn't... And now they're going to retake the world that's been taken from them.

I'll have to think about how to lead into that and what fun things to put into the setting for the horde to roll over >_>


Also I should probably mention that I'm not 'he'. And change my gender in the profile, I guess >_>

Khaelo
2015-08-28, 05:38 PM
An idea building on the different clans + orcs' habit of following non-orcs:
The players could fight orcs with orcs. The players get their own orc followers (via bribery, impressive strength, a shaman's prophesy, ???) and have to break up the horde while using and/or managing their chaotic underlings. The usual weaknesses of orcs as enemies become challenges for the players to handle. Newly encountered clans could be obstacles or resources.

Guran
2015-08-28, 06:44 PM
How about an orc horde that actually allies with the players? Maybe the party and the horde have a common enemy and the only way out of their problem is to work together in a rather uneasy alliance as neither side really likes the other. This way you can show more of the orc culture in the way you imagine them in your campaign. You can then even introduce some of the ideas you came up with or are offered here. And where could this team-up eventually lead to?

Cikomyr
2015-08-28, 07:28 PM
Hmm.. Teaming up with the Orc Horde against the Xenophobic Elvish Elite and their Shadow Empire, that certainly had potential.

AlexanderML
2015-08-28, 08:47 PM
Not sure if anyone has seen this (probably not), but I just love this guys orcs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnp7_ONijYo&index=5&list=PLylLGJF4VZY7Wya1zdWY3ExLfitPCdJEN).

Skip to 4:36 if you want to get to the talk on orcs.

Hawkstar
2015-08-28, 10:40 PM
Ooh... on the 'Players are in control of orcs" - Turn the situation around completely. Make the orcs NOT chaotic evil, merely a horde of strong, militant brutes. The kingdom is ruled by an extremely corrupt aristocracy in the absence of of the rightful Kings/Queens - Who are the players interested in being such. Other players are friends... including one orc leader (Warlord, Shaman, etc). So, the party gets to be the invading Orc Horde trying to take over The Kingdom.

NRSASD
2015-08-29, 02:21 AM
Before the horde arrives on the stage, you could have the PCs pick off the orc outcasts, runts, and desperadoes dumb/desperate enough to leave their zone of magic as bandits. Make the PCs feel good about themselves. Then have a particularly lucky orc raid pack off something valuable from a human border settlement (the mayor's attractive son/daughter, the town's prize relic, etc.) and bring it back to orc turf. Have the town mourn it as lost, and offer a huge reward for it even though they never hope to see it again. PCs cross the line into the Orcs' territory, and get knocked off guard by the vastly more scary and competent orcs living there. Let them recover the prize, and witness the horde marshaling its forces for a surprise attack on human territory. When the PCs try to warn anyone of importance, they laugh it off as heat-induced delusions (except for elves, who suddenly remember pressing business on the far side of the continent and pack up shop asap). And then the horde arrives.

My one concern is that if all the orcs are magic users, even 1st level, the PCs will be hideously outgunned in most encounters. Maybe the orc horde is mostly cannon fodder led by an unusually-large-but-still-managaeable swarm of magic users, or maybe the magic is more of the stat boosting rather than spell slinging variety.

Rather than having the orcs develop a method of making their magic work permanently outside the magic zone, maybe have it tied into a divine or celestial phenomenon. The second moon comes out from behind the first moon for the first time in 1200 years, and being solid phlebonitum, amplifies that magic anywhere on the planet. The Orc gods finagle a divine loophole that lets their chosen people use their magic outside the magic zone from the summer solstice to the winter solstice. Something incredible, magical, and on a time limit. The Orcs know about this situation, and that's why they're assembling their horde now.

That way, the orc horde knows there's a clock ticking in the background, and they'll prefer more costly but quicker assaults of cities rather than long sieges. Subtle tactics like undermining the walls, causing famines, luring human traitors to the cause are ignored in favor of surprise rushes, swarming over the enemy, and lightning marches. As the hour of Orcish ascendance grows late, the horde gets increasingly desperate to wipe the humans out for good and uses even more risky tactics they would have dismissed earlier. With time running out, the orcs make more mistakes for the PCs to exploit and turn the tables on the invaders in heroic ways.

JenBurdoo
2015-08-29, 03:13 AM
I really like the thoughts presented here, as I have been planning on (longterm) having hordes of orcs coming over the border, but I don't want them to be monolithically evil (in part because my players are utterly new to role-playing games).

I think the 40K klans are a fairly good start to differences in orc tactics and cultures, even in fantasy:

Goffs: Bigger and focused on close-combat. Consider themselves the only "true" orcs. Favored class - Fighter (focused on hand-to-hand).
Evil Suns: Love mechanical gadgets and speed -- ride warboars or are focused on running, like barbarians, but also have bits of magitek and gnome-style tinkerers. Favored class: Wizard (focused on item creation).
Bad Moons: Richer than others -- hire mercenaries and always have fine equipment. Favored class - Aristocrat.
Snakebites: More primitive -- use bone and stone weapons, train wild animals. Favored class - Barbarian or Druid.
Deathskulls: Prefer to loot from other cultures rather than create their own -- might be the most likely to have taken over a castle, for example. Favored class - Rogue (focused on dungeoneering).
Blood Axes: Sneaky bastards, imitative (will observe enemy tactics and try to recreate them). Favored class - Rogue (focused on backstabbing).

Vitruviansquid
2015-08-29, 03:43 AM
I'm gonna be *that guy* and say it's the approach that's wrong here.

The cure to orcs being boring is not to put major twists on them, because they were not boring because they were cliched. Good writing does not avoid cliches, good writing harnesses cliches.

Rather, the reason that orcs are boring is because of lazy presentation. GMs tend to throw out orcs without much fanfare or detail, relying instead on their metagame reputations to give players an idea of what they're about. Or otherwise, in an attempt to be original, make them into technicolor, thaumaturgical, steampunk not-orcs.

Before the players meet orcs for the first time, have them see evidence of the orcs' passing. Have people and situations that tell them what an orc horde is like, and what it is like to fight them. Of course, the gameplay experiences you dole out to the players later should match that. Flesh out your orc horde and answer the questions that lazy GMs don't think about. Who leads them? What do they do for food? How do they constantly defeat enemies who are familiar with them? What is orcish home life like?

Jay R
2015-08-29, 08:14 AM
Velociraptor-riding orcs.

Your players will not be bored.

noob
2015-08-29, 08:19 AM
I find Velociraptors too much common and boring because of this.(they gained some interest when it was found they had feathers)

hellspawnfish
2015-08-29, 09:35 AM
Vitruviansquid, I don't think they're boring because they're cliched. I think they're boring because they're boring. They're evil and bloodthirsty and stupid and their god is evil and bloodthirsty and stupid. Sometimes there isn't enough of a cliche to harness, really.

How would you harness it? What are the answers to those questions in your campaign? Maybe I'm missing something, I don't know, but honestly anything new and fresh you do with them is a 'massive twist' compared to the vanilla version...

Also I should mention, Tolkien's orcs were actually very technologically inclined. And WH40k orcs have already been mentioned here. So if we are arguing over 'orcs' and 'not orcs' I would not bet on DnD version winning the definitive status. Just sayin' :smalltongue:

NRSASD

I will figure out the balance/challenge issues when I go into design stage. Maybe give them a flavorful cantrip or just some description fluff to start. I like your idea about the astrological alignment, but I like the idea of them having harnessed their magic on their own too. That seems more badass. Maybe to get the ticking clock element going (which is a great idea and a good reason for orcs to not just conquer everything forever and ever) I could say that the magical surge is burning the orcs out so they'll start buckling under the 'overclocking' strain soon.

I will probably get the players into the wastes early in the game, maybe even with an orc/half-orc guide. They can observe at a distance, at least, and get a load of magical wasteland living for a few days...

Jay R, hehe, that sounds like something I might even eventually do :D probably not in this campaign, though...

NRSASD
2015-08-29, 10:20 AM
@hellspawnfish- I like that! The orcs develop the new tech needed to expand out of the desert but fail to read the fine print (insanity, shortened lifespans, zombies, etc.)... At first the orcs completely overrun everything, then begin to lose momentum as the side-effects catch up. The horde falters and collapses, and the battle between the humans and orcs becomes less of a battle and more of an orc rout. The situation could even devolve to the point where the PCs go from being on the defense to spearheading a humanitarian effort to save the orcish species from extinction as their new tech overwhelms them...

NNescio
2015-08-29, 01:13 PM
I really like the thoughts presented here, as I have been planning on (longterm) having hordes of orcs coming over the border, but I don't want them to be monolithically evil (in part because my players are utterly new to role-playing games).

I think the 40K klans are a fairly good start to differences in orc tactics and cultures, even in fantasy:

Goffs: Bigger and focused on close-combat. Consider themselves the only "true" orcs. Favored class - Fighter (focused on hand-to-hand).
Evil Suns: Love mechanical gadgets and speed -- ride warboars or are focused on running, like barbarians, but also have bits of magitek and gnome-style tinkerers. Favored class: Wizard (focused on item creation).
Bad Moons: Richer than others -- hire mercenaries and always have fine equipment. Favored class - Aristocrat.
Snakebites: More primitive -- use bone and stone weapons, train wild animals. Favored class - Barbarian or Druid.
Deathskulls: Prefer to loot from other cultures rather than create their own -- might be the most likely to have taken over a castle, for example. Favored class - Rogue (focused on dungeoneering).
Blood Axes: Sneaky bastards, imitative (will observe enemy tactics and try to recreate them). Favored class - Rogue (focused on backstabbing).

Do worgs run faster if you paint them red?

hellspawnfish
2015-08-29, 01:27 PM
That depends on what kind of creature provided the blood for the painting :smallwink:

Kami2awa
2015-08-30, 03:18 AM
Meeting orcs on a flat battlefield is dull. Orcs who snipe from the trees, who use stealth and guerilla tactics and so on, are interesting. These orcs aren't special - they're just being a bit more cunning than usual.

A tower defence scenario where the PCs must organise a settlement against orc attack would also be fun.

Orcs could exploit other animals and monsters, like Tolkien's Warg riders. Imagine orcs driving, say, a dire bear into battle with pikes.

Maybe the orcs are better organised than usual because they have a new leader? Not your usual dark lord, but just a brighter- and more-charismatic-than-usual orc. Just because you get -2 to mental stats doesn't mean every orc is stupid - there is potential for an Int 16, Cha 16 orcish genius out there. And what if an orc found an item that enhanced these abilities?

Wardog
2015-08-30, 04:11 PM
[COLOR="#0000FF"]
Anyway, one last thought: steal the idea behind the Reavers from Firefly / Serenity.

Orcs are former humans who did ... something. They transformed, or were transformed. [/B]

The Fall from Heaven 2 mod for Civ4 does that. Orcs were humans who worshipped the the Goddess of Fire. When she litteraly fell from Heaven and crashed into Hell, her worshipers were mutated into spikey orcs (with an aptitude for fire magic).


Clan of Embers
Are the numberless orcs of Erebus shunned because of their viciousness and cruelty, or are they cruel and vicious because they are shunned? A riddle which troubles sages and priests, perhaps, but battlefield commanders have little time for such thoughts when the Clan of Embers is upon them. Quick and harsh like the fallen goddess they serve, orcs and goblins have menaced civilizations since the end of the Age of Magic. In the Age of Rebirth, however, they pose a more dire threat as uncontrolled hordes have been shaped into one mighty clan under Jonas the War-Priest. Sheelba, their queen, brings the advances of civilization but none of its civility.
http://kael.civfanatics.net/Civilizations.shtml


The original Fall from Heaven had less developed civilizations (e.g. just a generic "Orc" civilization rather than the Clan of Embers), but one game I played of it had some interesting events that could be an inspiration for non-standard orcs:

I was playign as the Orcs, and initially decided to go full "ravaging horde" (declare war on everyone, just because I can). I first met (and rapidly destroyed) the Halfling civilization, then met, attacked (and eventually made peace with) the Dark Elves. My next encounter was with the Wood Elves. While I was conquering them, a massive barbarian horde turned up on the other side of the Elf civilization, lead by a completely over-powered hero unit, and promptly set about capturing and razing all the Elf cities. In the end, all the Elf cities ended up either destroyed by the barbarians or captured by my orcs, meaning they ceased to exist as an independed civilization. However, before I captured all their cities, they had founded the "Fellowship of Leaves" religion in one of the cities, which allows its followers to build elven units and get various nature/forest-themed buildings and powers. The result of this was I effectively saved the elves from extinction, and ended up playing as an orc/elf hybrid civilization, with a more benign outlook on life (adopting the religion changed my alignment from evil to neutral).

Mr. Bitter
2015-08-30, 05:29 PM
Have the orcs worship the same deity as the players, and justify their aggressive society and expansionist policies with what seems to the players like a horrible misunderstanding of their shared religion. Maybe the orcs have it right.

TheThan
2015-08-30, 05:58 PM
I don't think they're boring because they're cliched. I think they're boring because they're boring. They're evil and bloodthirsty and stupid and their god is evil and bloodthirsty and stupid. Sometimes there isn't enough of a cliche to harness, really.


If you think this is the problem, then break it. Make them not evil, not bloodthirsty and not stupid; make their god(s) not evil, bloodthirsty and stupid.
Maybe orcs have a powerful druidic culture that worships nature spirits. Maybe the druids have issued some sort of jihad against humans for polluting their sacred places, making it difficult if not impossible for their druids to commune with their spirits. If you kill the beings they worship, that’s a pretty just cause to go to war after all.

Maybe they’ve been competing with other races (elves and humans are great here) but have been driven out into inhospitable terrain to scratch a living upon rocks. They’re tired of it and want to live in the nice places. So they decide to go and take it.

If a single band of x level orcs warriors is boring, mix it up. A team with breserkers up front charging in with wild abandon; with spell casters in the back throwing out buffs and healing being protected by defensive built fighters suddenly becomes a challenging encounter. Orcs are now suddenly tough when the wizard is being counter spelled, and the entire party is being caught in entangle spells. I just turned an otherwise boring encounter into a fun one that could be quite dangerous to the players.

Maybe they don’t have an arcane tradition because they don’t need one, druidic magic is powerful after all. Maybe they have a powerful oral tradition and don’t need writing, so they have sorcerers with wild or fey magic instead of wizards.
Make them smarter and tougher than the players and they will be interesting.

Make their language complex filled with elaborate flourishes and delicate nuances; things that lose translation when they speak common, giving the impression that orcs are simple and brutish.

Basically orcs are only as boring as the DM's lack of inspiration. If he thinks they're boring then they will be boring. if he treats mooks like mooks then they will be mooks.

Dienekes
2015-08-30, 06:07 PM
I simply based them loosely on the Goths/Alamanni/other Germanic barbarians near the fall of Rome to the early medieval period.

Essentially, the orcs have always been there at the borders of the human and elven empires, and there is a great deal of connection between them. Despite, the orcs being used as mercenaries that make up a large portion of everyone's armies, everyone is afraid of what they could become if they ever got their crap together and organized. So the various empires both need to pay them and give them good material for their own military ventures, but also send their armies to mess up the orc clans so that none get too powerful.

Which just created a towering pile of resentment. The orcs are considered monstrous barbaric creatures only fit for violence by the majority of the empires citizens, while the orcs see the empire as an oppressive power that offers them trinkets but stifles their own development. My latest campaign is pretty much trying to squeeze both the fall of Rome and the Gothic Wars into a 5 year period. And so far it's worked fairly well. The PCs see how the orcs have legitimate problems with the empires, but also that the empires are right in thinking that a unified orc army would be far too large a problem for them to face, especially since their army is largely made up of the very orcs they're afraid of.

As of now, a charismatic orcish leader is uniting the clans and pushing into the elven empire's borders to siege the capital and take the more fertile lands for themselves, promising each of the separate clans parts of the elven and eventually the human empire. The heroes are currently on a mission to stop them, and I have plans to go forward if they succeed or the much more likely scenario that they fail to stop the army (which is where the Gothic Wars section of the campaign will get started).

To make the actual encounters interesting I made strict differences between the clans to give about 6 different styles of orc tactics, and made a few leaders with their own capabilities that make them unique, including your sorcerers, druids, warblades, and so on. Hell, there's even a wizard that lived for a time among the elves when he was a young ward and son of an emissary.

JenBurdoo
2015-08-30, 11:56 PM
I just read an old KODT article that suggested reversing the racial alignments. Elves are haughty slavers, halflings are evil rogues, Dwarves are obsessed with gold to the point of taking it from others or demanding tribute, gnome tricks are lethal, hobgoblins are honourable warriors, trolls are friendly and loyal, and so on.

One of my favorite SF novels, Learning to Live With Orcs (http://mud.co.uk/richard/ltlwo.htm) by Richard Bartle, is set in a world where Orcs were a slave race. While they're now free, they were never warriors to begin with, and have regressed into, for lack of a more sympathetic term, lazy slobs. The protagonist is an Earth anthropologist who studies their surprisingly complex culture.

Joe the Rat
2015-08-31, 07:37 AM
Not sure if anyone has seen this (probably not), but I just love this guys orcs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnp7_ONijYo&index=5&list=PLylLGJF4VZY7Wya1zdWY3ExLfitPCdJEN).

Skip to 4:36 if you want to get to the talk on orcs.Demonac has a ton of nifty twists and ideas to steal, but I think his Orcs are pretty much the opposite of what you want for a horde. You wouldn't have a wave of mooks to hack through, threatened by their overwhelming numbers. You'd have a horde of enemies - each at least as strong as your PCs. It would make for a *much* more serious threat. They's hella ka.

Love the accent, personally.


Do worgs run faster if you paint them red?Red wuns run fasta

Cikomyr
2015-08-31, 08:47 AM
The Fall from Heaven 2 mod for Civ4 does that. Orcs were humans who worshipped the the Goddess of Fire. When she litteraly fell from Heaven and crashed into Hell, her worshipers were mutated into spikey orcs (with an aptitude for fire magic).

http://kael.civfanatics.net/Civilizations.shtml


The original Fall from Heaven had less developed civilizations (e.g. just a generic "Orc" civilization rather than the Clan of Embers), but one game I played of it had some interesting events that could be an inspiration for non-standard orcs:

I was playign as the Orcs, and initially decided to go full "ravaging horde" (declare war on everyone, just because I can). I first met (and rapidly destroyed) the Halfling civilization, then met, attacked (and eventually made peace with) the Dark Elves. My next encounter was with the Wood Elves. While I was conquering them, a massive barbarian horde turned up on the other side of the Elf civilization, lead by a completely over-powered hero unit, and promptly set about capturing and razing all the Elf cities. In the end, all the Elf cities ended up either destroyed by the barbarians or captured by my orcs, meaning they ceased to exist as an independed civilization. However, before I captured all their cities, they had founded the "Fellowship of Leaves" religion in one of the cities, which allows its followers to build elven units and get various nature/forest-themed buildings and powers. The result of this was I effectively saved the elves from extinction, and ended up playing as an orc/elf hybrid civilization, with a more benign outlook on life (adopting the religion changed my alignment from evil to neutral).

I love Fall From Heaven 2. It allows for such fantastic narrative within your game. You literally create your own Fantasy Epic storyline as you progress. And standard map seeds allowed for great exploration.

Lemme tell you one day about the game i played as the forest elves, but started in a desert.

Never tried out the Orcs there tho.

Deified Data
2015-08-31, 09:13 AM
Instead of generic Horde of Orc barbarians, wildly swinging axes and falchions willynilly in a blind rage, try a complex high steppes, nomadic equestrian society.

This is the exact scenario in my campaign - they're a Mongol-themed continent-spanning coalition of Orcs, Ogres, and other disenfranchised races fleeing their blighted lands to find prosperity. It takes away the "evil for evil's sake" that makes Orcs so boring. They're just another society trying to survive.

Segev
2015-08-31, 10:34 AM
Have you tried Febreeze?

Segev
2015-08-31, 10:47 AM
More seriously, the "play to their tropes" argument is the right starting point. The question is how to do it.

I suggest a melding of a few things into one CE whole:

NE Druids who revere nature as "red in tooth and claw" and view civilization as "fun to destroy."
Evil clerics of war-like gods who believe that war is its own reward, and that dying in battle is no excuse for ceasing the fight: they use necromancy (particularly animate dead) to keep their own numbers up and bolster them with the fallen of their enemies.
An utter disregard for life - their own or others - except in amusement at its taking. Their artistry is about brutality and power and finding new ways for others to suffer
Rapacity and greed; they do not create anything themselves, and in fact view "creation" as slave work, work that is a sign of weakness to be forced to engage in. Things taken by force, not forged nor made by oneself, are valued. This includes concubines and servants.

They stick together not because of any cohesion, but because the biggest and strongest have the best stuff, and splitting up means they lose access to it. They do spread in small bands, but ultimately they clump back together when they meet strong enough resistance. They're not proud warrior race guys; they're prideful brutes who enjoy slaughter. The only reason they don't slaughter each other is because their slave pits are kept full of gladiators of other races to watch, egg on, and fight against.

Perhaps the bands most closely tied to the clergy even drink potions of animate dead before battles, so their corpses rise as zombies immediately upon death, the better to continue the carnage.

noob
2015-08-31, 10:51 AM
Or use undeath after death.