Roy vs Durkula

[Zmeoaice]

Human Fighter vs. Vampire Cleric. Who would win?

I think Roy might use his "spell blocking" trick he learned in the afterlife, which might put him at an advantage.

IIRC, Vampires can only be killed through stakes or sunlight, and go to their coffin if they lose hipoints. However, I don't think Durkula has a coffin (unless he got one off apnel) and am not sure what the rules are (although it would take Durkula out of the picture.)

Durkula has cool vampire skills like turning into vapor, turning into a giant wolf, and probably other stuff. With spellcasting he has range the the staff probably has some useful spells as well.

[Zweisteine]

In a straight up as-expected fight, the Vampire Cleric would win every time.

In this case, some unexpected things might happen, such as Rou's spell-breaking trick.

But Roy really should fake Durkon out and kill one of the other, quite possibly weaker, priests present. Sure, he'd die, but the world would probably be saved, and one of the other priests could probably be convinced to revive him later... Maybe.

[JohnTheSavage]

I'd call it an even fight. Durkon's, y'know, a 3.5 full caster and a vampire on top of that but Roy's entire build at this point is based around murdering undead spellcasters. He's got a passable will save, an anti-undead sword and that spell-disrupting trick he learned from Grandpa Greenhilt.

But, Roy doesn't have to beat Durkon at all, Roy just needs him out of the room.

[Dimitri666]

In a straight-up greatsword vs. quarterstaff brawl, Roy would definitely win. He gets three attacks per round to Durkula's two, plus a ton of feats that optimize his sword fighting, adding damage and bonus to attack rolls.

But of course, the HPoH is a cleric, and has at least 3 7th-level spells available to him, not to mention a huge amount of lesser spell slots.

I say, if Roy can consistently neutralize the vampire's magic, via his magic disruption feat, he will probably win. If he can't, he's in all sorts of trouble...

[Capnris]

Human Fighter vs. Vampire Cleric. Who would win?

IIRC, Vampires can only be killed through stakes or sunlight, and go to their coffin if they lose hipoints. However, I don't think Durkula has a coffin (unless he got one off apnel) and am not sure what the rules are (although it would take Durkula out of the picture.)

Vampires without a coffin to return to are quite vulnerable; ashing them can destroy them outright. According to the 3.5 SRD, once reduced to 0HP, the vamp goes gaseous, but if it can't get back to its coffin within 2 hours, it dies. If Durkula set up one somewhere on the premises or the ship, he's got a bolthole, but otherwise he'll have to play it safe.

Of course, it's unlikely to be a 1 on 1 fight.

[DataNinja]

Don't forget the other clerics that the HPoH might be able to bring into play...

Assuming they don't just get dusted by the other clerics... :smallamused:

[Olinser]

Human Fighter vs. Vampire Cleric. Who would win?

I think Roy might use his "spell blocking" trick he learned in the afterlife, which might put him at an advantage.

IIRC, Vampires can only be killed through stakes or sunlight, and go to their coffin if they lose hipoints. However, I don't think Durkula has a coffin (unless he got one off apnel) and am not sure what the rules are (although it would take Durkula out of the picture.)

Durkula has cool vampire skills like turning into vapor, turning into a giant wolf, and probably other stuff. With spellcasting he has range the the staff probably has some useful spells as well.

He doesn't have to kill Durkula.

He just has to get rid of him so Hel's vote doesn't count. Driving him gaseous and out of the room is good enough for that.

1v1 the advantage is definitely Durkula's simply from a perspective of healing and variety of spells available to him. As with any fight vs a cleric, this fight is going to hinge on exactly ONE major factor - Roy's ability to make saving throws.

[AMoonWalker]

ok, I just ran an analysis of this fight and posted it on the strip discussion.

Dang Giant, I am impressed.

Ok, as to the argument over Roy having a chance against the HPoH. Well I did some research and there are some really nasty spells D can throw around: Destruction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/destruction.htm) (note the Fort save, not likely to kill Roy outright), Harm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/harm.htm) (Will save, but still, Roy's Will can't be that bad) or possibly Flame Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameStrike.htm) (not going to kill Roy, but could definitely hurt.). Big AoE spells are out because D can't hurt the other High priests (or risk getting Healed to dust) so a lot of his other nasty stuff is off limits.
Some things to remember, as of last check Roy and Durkula have the same level (not including the Vamp template) according to the class and level geekery thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392439-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIII-Comic-As-Written-not-Comic-As-Intended); Roy's sword has been shown ignoring damage reduction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html); and if the Depiction (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html) of Roy's spell disruption feat is at all accurate, once Roy gets into melee range Durkula isn't going to be casting anything but Melee touch attack spells, Period, no healing, no buffing, no ranged touch attacks.
In theory the HPoH could summon something big and nasty before Roy makes contact, but given D's overconfidence, previous fighting style, and how dramatically inappropriate it would be, I find that possibility unlikely.
Now given the Final Panel I'd guess that D has 1 round maybe 2 before Roy makes contact, and remember, most cleric spells take a standard action to cast, meaning D has 1, maybe 2 spells before this becomes a Fighter Vs Vampire Melee brawl. The Vamp is tougher with d12 hit dice but Roy has his +5 anti-undead great sword and a massive strength bonus from the belt.

My money is on Roy.
The only thing I did not factor for would be an intervention by other parties... because who knows who will intervene and how, too many options.

[Spoomeister]

In my humble opinion, anyone looking to try to second-guess this fight in D&D terms is wasting their time. Rich has made it clear repeatedly that he isn't hueing close to any D&D rules and hasn't for a long time; he's just going to do what's right to him for the story. So things like the earlier poster who pointed out that Roy has been training to slay undead spellcasters, is more on the right track than inferring spell slots and fortitude saves.

I also think that an earlier insight of Durkon's about how his memories work now is going to come into play somehow. Possibly as a distraction, possibly as misdirection by feeding false information.

And, further, note the one NPC early on in #1000 who seems to recognize the Thundershield name. It's possible some technicality will arise from that, to help with the voting somehow. (E.g. not a real priest because hey, who really owns that body/soul, or something.) Or at the very least, that if Durkula is killed and Durkon can't come back, he'll have been reasoned to have died honorably and won't go to Hel when he goes.

So yeah, if there's any hints to be gained for where this is all going, I have to think it's more based in plot hints than guessing character stats. Not that there's anything wrong with doing so, obviously - the running thread guessing stats for everyone has actually been really cool and a nice little feature of the forums over the years.

[Olinser]

In my humble opinion, anyone looking to try to second-guess this fight in D&D terms is wasting their time. Rich has made it clear repeatedly that he isn't hueing close to any D&D rules and hasn't for a long time; he's just going to do what's right to him for the story. So things like the earlier poster who pointed out that Roy has been training to slay undead spellcasters, is more on the right track than inferring spell slots and fortitude saves.

I also think that an earlier insight of Durkon's about how his memories work now is going to come into play somehow. Possibly as a distraction, possibly as misdirection by feeding false information.

And, further, note the one NPC early on in #1000 who seems to recognize the Thundershield name. It's possible some technicality will arise from that, to help with the voting somehow. (E.g. not a real priest because hey, who really owns that body/soul, or something.) Or at the very least, that if Durkula is killed and Durkon can't come back, he'll have been reasoned to have died honorably and won't go to Hel when he goes.

So yeah, if there's any hints to be gained for where this is all going, I have to think it's more based in plot hints than guessing character stats. Not that there's anything wrong with doing so, obviously - the running thread guessing stats for everyone has actually been really cool and a nice little feature of the forums over the years.

My guess is that Thor's going to have a legitimate case with the fact that Durkon died honorably - in combat, protecting a comrade against an Evil foe - and his soul is locked inside HPOH's skull, instead of with Thor.

Thor may demand a resolution with Hel on the matter to postpone the vote and stall for time while Roy tries to dust Durkula.

[Atomburster]

Don't forget the other clerics that the HPoH might be able to bring into play...

Assuming they don't just get dusted by the other clerics... :smallamused:

Of course, the other clerics in the room can help Roy.

There are no rules against casting spells, are there?

They can give Roy an inane amount of buff spells, if they were touch range. Even absent that, they can hug Roy and basically make it impossible for Durkula to cast AOE spells without it being construed as an 'attack' on other priests. Then they can spam cure X wounds on him. 8*(4d8+CL) for ~200 hp each round is basically GOD MODE for Roy.

Basically imagine clericzilla with a fighter chassis.

Of course, it is true on the other side. It could be an interesting battle in which participants on both sides were limited to only casting spells on their own team.

[Synesthesy]

I think that it will be a fair duel, because surely some rule (first of all, dramatic ones) will make impossible for other cleric to join the fight even with some buff.

But we know that a bodyguard can attack his priest.... and Durkula has TWO bodyguard, hasn't he?

[The Pilgrim]

Any cleric helping Roy would mean an agression towards Durkula and, thus, breaking the rules.

Durkula casting any spell that has any effect whatsoever on someone but Roy would mean an agression against other participants of the Godsmoot and, thus, breaking the rules.

The High Lady of Thor remembering who Durkon Thundershield is and, thus, pointing out that the High Priest of Hel lied about his identity, may lead to invalidation of Durkula's credentials and annulment of Hel's vote due to technicalities.

[Tentreto]

Remember, Belkar is still unaccounted for, and is the other bodyguard. There's still a 50/50 he willl come in and do stabby stabby.

[SoC175]

In a straight-up greatsword vs. quarterstaff brawl, Roy would definitely win. He gets three attacks per round to Durkula's two, plus a ton of feats that optimize his sword .except that a clerics first action would be to give himself fighter BAB via divine power

[Noodz]

I expect Rich to use a dramatic resolution here, because the HPoH can easily neutralize Roy with Antilife Shell. It's a 6th level, 10ft radius, 10 min./level abjuration that doesn't allow a save. With careful positioning, the nature of this spell guarantees the casting is not understood as an aggression towards other clerics. And the HPoH is completely justified in having it prepared since it has a lot of reliable intel on Roy's fighting style (besides being an all around awesome protection spell).

The HPoH can also protect himself further with Walls of Stone (as a 14th level caster, HPoH can probably go for a 4 inch thick wall around himself), Darkness (20% chance to miss attacks, but does not affect most spells), Air Walk (as far as we know, Roy has no way of flying), and we're not even getting into non core stuff. Really, the mechanics of D&D 3.5 are unsuited towards drama.

Rich storytelling is good enough that he can get away with HPoH going for fisticuffs, but it would be even more impressive if he manages to resolve this without resorting to the "villainous hubris" trope.

[Windscion]

Any cleric helping Roy would mean an agression towards Durkula and, thus, breaking the rules.

Durkula casting any spell that has any effect whatsoever on someone but Roy would mean an agression against other participants of the Godsmoot and, thus, breaking the rules.

The High Lady of Thor remembering who Durkon Thundershield is and, thus, pointing out that the High Priest of Hel lied about his identity, may lead to invalidation of Durkula's credentials and annulment of Hel's vote due to technicalities.

1.) Yes.
2.) Yes.
3.) No. Hpoh did not lie, he simply did not allow Roy to hear what he said. (Nor is it clear that lying would be a disqualification.)

[Ilorin Lorati]

I don't think they'll allow Roy to actually get into a proper fight with HPoH, personally. I think what will end up happening is Hel's vote being invalidated because she doesn't have a physical representative there. Durkon - who the body belongs to - is a priest of Thor. The HPoH is a spiritual entity inhabiting his body.

[Filippo]

Wait, Antilife Shell is actually one of my favorite "drama" spells, usefull to cast, then have a evil monologue (if also shielded from spell and ranged attaks, obviously^^)

How cool would it be if D actually cast it, blocking Roy, then"Angry-Ghost-From-Stabbyland" Belkar shows up for the final undeath showdown.

But again, there is no point in guessing.

[Aasimar]

Technical question on the rules of the Godsmoot.

If a clerics bodyguard attacks another cleric, is the bodyguard's own cleric's diplomatic immunity also revoked?

If so, Roy's smartest move would be to go and slash the high cleric of Odin slightly.

'Ooops, looks like you guys will have to kill me and Durkon both...how clumsy of me.'

[SlashDash]

Durkon specifically asked Mr.Scurffy if he could bring only Roy to battle Malack, so I'm guessing that's an indication that Roy at the very least is strong enough to withstand the vampiric gaze of Durkula as well.

On the other hand... He clearly suffered from Miko's stunning attack (frot base, which should be higher than his will). So it can't be that high.

My point is that essentially this could go either way and there really is no much point in guessing about particular tactics.




However, I think it's safe to assume that Durkula didn't vamp those clerics for nothing so they will most likely help to interfere. And Belkar is likely to show up at the last second.

Truth is, we always assumed that Belkar's death would have to be something that would prevent him from being resurrected - many of us assumed it would something Snarl\gates related.

However, if he kills Durkula - is he also being counted as his body guard? If not, he would be put to death by the gods decree and thus unlikely to be resurrected.

Of course there's a third option here. Belkar shows up and kills any other cleric that voted yes. This gets him killed, the voting is off and Hel's plan is totally messed up. It's not even a bad plan as they only have to have the cleric dead for a short while. Any of the other clerics can easily raise the cleric from the dead later. The only sacrifice here is Belkar's.

[cavalier973]

I would say that Belkar shows up, but not to fight. Rather, he shows up to vote (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html).

[eggynack]

The difference in power level is ludicrous. The vampire cleric would win every time, possibly without exception, especially at this late level. Roy is inevitably going to win in the end, because he has to, and that could be due to any number of factors like outside intervention or some other crazy thing, but if we're just talking an arena battle here outside the context of a web comic, then the human fighter doesn't stand a chance.

Edit: To put this in perspective, I was part of a 15th level druid versus fighter thread awhile back, and it was proved that the druid could be built, without any significant metagaming, such that they'd defeat the fighter literally 100% of the time. The chances are low that similar wouldn't be possible with a cleric.

[Aasimar]

The difference in power level is ludicrous. The vampire cleric would win every time, possibly without exception, especially at this late level. Roy is inevitably going to win in the end, because he has to, and that could be due to any number of factors like outside intervention or some other crazy thing, but if we're just talking an arena battle here outside the context of a web comic, then the human fighter doesn't stand a chance.

I'm going to have to say that I don't agree.

Outside of normal powergaming at least, which the OOTS-verse definitely is.

Narrative convention would suggest that Roy either wins relatively straight up, or almost loses but is saved at the last minute by either outside intervention or his own quick thinking.

Further, I've recently had reason to play a druid and a wizard at high levels, 16+, with pretty good basic intelligence of my own, but no real powerbuilding or long term planning.

My experience is that people often save against your powerful spells if you aren't taking powergaming steps to prevent that, or the full effect isn't enough.

Roy is strong, has a belt of strength, a +5 undead bane greatsword and feats specialized around taking down spellcasters. His will save is enough that the dominating gaze won't be the deciding factor (and because we know the Giant wouldn't resolve this conflict through that ability).

Durkon has high AC, spellcasting and good strength, we don't know how good a weapon his staff is, but probably not better than Roy's sword. We also know that if anyone in the comic can hit high AC, it would be him.

I'm not going strictly by D&D stats, more by what the story so far has lead us to expect from the two characters.

I'd say it's definitely a worthy fight.

[pgrmdave]

Would the other clerics raising Durkon count as an attack?

[Captain Morgan]

Wait a second, has the party crossed into the Dwarven homelands yet? If not, then we sort of know Durkula ain't out of the game yet, even if his scheme gets foiled.

[Ezekiul]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html

Durkon will probably have backup.

[Silverionmox]

I assume it's going to be Roy vs. Durkula without any priestly intervention, because of the godsmoot rules. Then Roy's going to make headway initially, but then the entire vampirized creed of the stone will swarm the nave, turning the tables. Then Belkar, the only other one who can legally send Hel's High Priest to stabbytown will show up and put the final nail in his coffin. He's not going to die yet, but it will be close.

[Morty]

In my humble opinion, anyone looking to try to second-guess this fight in D&D terms is wasting their time. Rich has made it clear repeatedly that he isn't hueing close to any D&D rules and hasn't for a long time; he's just going to do what's right to him for the story. So things like the earlier poster who pointed out that Roy has been training to slay undead spellcasters, is more on the right track than inferring spell slots and fortitude saves.


True as it is, I think the Giant could have Roy kill a dozen wizards, druids and clerics using a pair of chopsticks and people still wouldn't get it.

Now, rules-crunching aside, the High Priest of Hel has been shown to be extraordinarily powerful, since he's got the power of an adventurer equal or higher to Roy in level backed up by the considerable innate abilities of a vampire. However, Roy has a sword that is designed to damage undead, and a technique designed to shut down spell-casting. So it might be a more even fight than one would expect.

Another pertinent question is - did Hel and her priest expect Roy to intervene like this? They both seem smug in the last panel, so I think the answer is "yes". Which would mean this may very well not be a straight fight at all.

That said, we can be pretty sure the voting will be interrupted, one way or the other. Since if it goes Hel's way, boom goes the world. Unless the gods can't destroy the world despite deciding to do it, so... yeah.

[Ganbatte]

I'm not going strictly by D&D stats, more by what the story so far has lead us to expect from the two characters.


Err....


but if we're just talking an arena battle here outside the context of a web comic, then the human fighter doesn't stand a chance.

Nice post, I guess?

[Studoku]

Durkon - who the body belongs to - is a priest of Thor. The HPoH is a spiritual entity inhabiting his body.
Possession is nine tenths of the law.

[eggynack]

Err....

Nice post, I guess?
Exactly. Roy will win inevitably. He has to, because the world is very unlikely to be destroyed right now, at least not forever. It'd kill off virtually every plot thread that's currently running in the comic, in favor of, I dunno, permanent afterlife adventures. It might not even be possible given what we know so far, as the world's destruction would mean that Durkon can never return to the dwarven homeland. However, going by nothing but the rules, and assuming that Durkon didn't prepare bad spells (because Roy could easily kick his ass if he just prepared nothing but cures), Durkon's victory would be inevitable. Clerics are just that powerful, and fighters just that not powerful, and him being a vampire acting as a fancy bonus.

Incidentally, one other possible solution here is that one of the other body guards kills their own high priest. They could even do it with the priest's blessing, assuming they don't want the world to end, especially if the deity changes their mind in response to Hel's revelation.

[grandpheonix]

Not sure if anyones pointed this out yet, but Durkula is already summoning a fiend as seen in strip http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html

[theasl]

I'm pretty sure the other vamped guys won't be a factor, if HPOH even went through the trouble of raising them immediately - the godsmoot protection only holds for the high priest of each god and their bodyguard(s), so the former Creed members should be simply dusted on the spot if they make an appearance.

[Castamir]

You guys forgot about the Oracle's prophecy. Durkon is still bound to return to his homelands, "posthumously". It's not possible as a killed vampire, due to the way vampires in D&D die: turning into a gaseous form then dispersing two hours later (no coffin to return to).

Thus, a straight-on kill is impossible.

[ISitOnGnomes]

I'm pretty sure the other vamped guys won't be a factor, if HPOH even went through the trouble of raising them immediately - the godsmoot protection only holds for the high priest of each god and their bodyguard(s), so the former Creed members should be simply dusted on the spot if they make an appearance.

They are going to gather the clerics of the demigods now. It seemed pretty implied by Hel that the vamped priests are now the high priests of some less beloved demigods. If this is the case, they will be safe from harm, but unable to help.

[Lord Stoneheart]

They are going to gather the clerics of the demigods now. It seemed pretty implied by Hel that the vamped priests are now the high priests of some less beloved demigods. If this is the case, they will be safe from harm, but unable to help.

I'm not sure if the newly vamped clerics count as high priests of a demigod though. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html
The dwarf's own words state he is part of a non-theistic religion, which is why they don't have representation in the meeting itself.

[Landeraxe]

Long time reader, first time poster. Thank you Rich; your comic is the best I have ever subscribed to. I've been playing D&D since 1976 (yes, my babysitter got me playing it when I was six years old!), and although I visit other comics from time to time, yours is the only one I have never stopped reading (and have gone back many times and reread them while waiting for the next comic).
I'm not a forum-guy, but today's comic has brought me forth. Again, thanks for the great stories, the great characters, the humor, the drama, and overall entertainment value of your work. You are a master of the medium, and I hope you keep this comic going for years to come!


In my humble opinion, anyone looking to try to second-guess this fight in D&D terms is wasting their time. Rich has made it clear repeatedly that he isn't hueing close to any D&D rules and hasn't for a long time; he's just going to do what's right to him for the story. So things like the earlier poster who pointed out that Roy has been training to slay undead spellcasters, is more on the right track than inferring spell slots and fortitude saves.


I would hardly call it "wasting their time". Sure, the outcome is dependent on Rich alone, and not any D&D rules (look up verisimilitude for how Rich's writing conforms to D&D). But forums are for discussing things of interest, and who would win the fight IF it were a D&D game is an interesting topic. Since D&D is the common thread in most of the readers of the comic and forum members, you might want to get used to it. :D


And, further, note the one NPC early on in #1000 who seems to recognize the Thundershield name. It's possible some technicality will arise from that, to help with the voting somehow. (E.g. not a real priest because hey, who really owns that body/soul, or something.) Or at the very least, that if Durkula is killed and Durkon can't come back, he'll have been reasoned to have died honorably and won't go to Hel when he goes.

I'm guessing the High Priest of Thor remembers Durkon's name because of the letter he sent to his homeland asking when he could return. The representative is likely the High Priest, right? Rich is awesome about weaving the minor threads into his stories, and it really gives his comic the depth that so many stories lack.


So yeah, if there's any hints to be gained for where this is all going, I have to think it's more based in plot hints than guessing character stats. Not that there's anything wrong with doing so, obviously - the running thread guessing stats for everyone has actually been really cool and a nice little feature of the forums over the years.
Good call. I'm guessing that whomever stated that Durkon is going to return to his homeland posthumously has found *the* important clue. But Rich is really good at plot twists, so we'll have to wait and see how this turns out.

[theasl]

They are going to gather the clerics of the demigods now. It seemed pretty implied by Hel that the vamped priests are now the high priests of some less beloved demigods. If this is the case, they will be safe from harm, but unable to help.

But they wouldn't be the clerics of the demigods anymore, they'd be spirits representing Hel. Remember, they have to cast "Summon Proxie" (sic) so that the gods themselves can vote. The priests were not, are not, and will never be the ones voting in this one.

And besides, as pointed out, elemental stone isn't exactly a god, demi or not.

[Reddish Mage]

So, on a pure mechanics standpoint. Roy is a fighter that has essentially dedicated his build to destroying an undead spellcaster, while Durkon is a run-of-the-mill vampire cleric...one who could have anticipated this very attack.

Doesn't sound like much of a contest.

[Father Miles]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html

Durkon will probably have backup.

So he vamped both of them with the staff to accelerate things AND also cast protection from daylight on them so they don't burn in the sun?

Since priests are allowed only 2 bodyguards (Roy and Belkar), if his "backup" intervenes, that will be a case of 2 random vampires attacking a credentialed bodyguard and others can help Roy.

[SavageWombat]

Any defeat of Durkula at this juncture will depend on two factors, neither of which are Roy:

a) Belkar's timely arrival and probable heroic demise
b) Durkon's internal manipulation of the situation - somehow.

I suspect both will be used before any final defeat. Mind you, Durkula could easily flee if necessary.

[WowWeird]

So, on a pure mechanics standpoint. Roy is a fighter that has essentially dedicated his build to destroying an undead spellcaster, while Durkon is a run-of-the-mill vampire cleric...one who could have anticipated this very attack.

Doesn't sound like much of a contest.

...Not much of a contest in whose favor? It sounds like you're assuming Roy will win up until the ellipsis, but mentioning that Durkula could have anticipated the attack sounds like an argument for his victory, which I could definitely see as a legitimate interpretation.

On the whole, I don't really get why people are arguing that there's much to go on from a 'pure mechanics' standpoint - most people are either going with the classic '3.5 clerics are OP and will almost always win' argument, with a side of 'vampire template makes Durkula's effective level high enough to make any Order-level fight moot ', or arguing story elements as if they're D&D mechanics (Roy's 'anti-spellcaster' feat and anti-undead greatsword are both valid from a storytelling perspective, but I'm pretty sure they're both homebrew, so we don't really know how they function mechanically).

As a side note, what do we know about the feat and the starmetal mechanically? All I can remember is that Illusion!Xykon implied that the feat lets Roy ignore defensive casting (among potential other benefits surrounding disrupted spellcasting), and that the blacksmith in Azure City claimed the sword was +5 and had a green glow that was somehow inimical to the undead (though that isn't much as far as mechanics go, either - does it add damage? guarantee critical hits? just ignore DR, which Roy hinted at with Xykon's zombified dragon mount? Does it only do whatever it does to undead when it glows green? Does the glow also have negative effects on non-undead enemies? It's unclear.)

TL;DR Mechanical arguments are kinda silly twice over - Rich says he doesn't go for mechanics at this point, and the two biggest swing factors are both unstatted homebrew.

[Necrus Philius]

I would say that Belkar shows up, but not to fight. Rather, he shows up to vote (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html).

I actually say that it's elan who will get the deciding vote, since belkar will be off killing all the vamped up clerics of the demigods, evening out their numbers creating a tie thus bringing in banjo to be the final count!

[Seward]

except that a clerics first action would be to give himself fighter BAB via divine power

If he does that, he loses one of his chances to win the fight with a save/suck-die spell. Ditto any round he attempts to actually fight Roy

Seriously, what's Durkon going to do with full bab? Engage a high level fighter in melee? With a staff that is mostly a spellcasting device? The target is dude who got impaled and trampled by a dinosaur and said "ow". You think 1d6 damage plus strength*1.5 plus maybe power attack, if Durkon has that feat, is going to get the job done?

Anyone who's actually played high level D&D knows that the most efficient way to kill anything is to drop a high level fighter next to it in melee range, and the most effective way to stop such a fighter is to wall him off from melee range from an enemy somehow (this includes attacking weak saving throws, but it's chancy. Anybody can roll well and you wasted your action and are now dead from the full attack. Forcecage is better, but clerics get nothing like that)

On the other side of the equation, Durkon has a maximum of 109 hp (16th level, max hitpoint at first level, average for rest with d12 hit dice and no con bonus). Maybe he has another 11-18 temp hitpoints too from a pre-cast Aid spell. That's 3-4 hits from Roy, less if he feels he's able to power attack for his full 16 BAB and add 32 damage per swing on top of his likely 30ish damage from a +5 undead bane weapon and strength in the mid-20s. Just a charge attack and one surprise AOO by interrupting a spell will take most of Durkula's hitpoints, plus Durkula wasted his action casting a disrupted spell. If Roy's confident of hitting Durkon's AC with power attack full, he'll get the job done in 2 hits, but presumably Durkon's fullplate+cleric buffs will make Roy pull back a bit on the power attack.

No, his best bet is to try to win the whole fight in a single bad saving throw, and try to maximize his opportunities to cast such spells. Anything attacking Roy's hitpoints are futile - we're looking for things like plane shift or destruction. The thing is, Roy's got to have a great fort save, and his will save is likely adequate. Domination's based on charisma, even with the bonus for being a vampire the DC isn't likely that high. The cleric spells are more dangerous but are also disruptable. Roy's odds go down a lot with each successful effect Durkula can get off, so if he can somehow stay out of reach of Roy's sword, Roy will eventually lose (in absence of buffing. Hit Roy with prot evil, air walk and freedom of movement and he's gonna win this fight, hands down)

[Larrx]

I don't think there's even going to be a fight. Roy's goal is to neutralize the HPoH, either by destroying it, or forcing it from the room. If Hel's endgame is the destruction of the world, as currently seems likely, then the HPoH wins simply by remaining in the room. It doesn't need to defeat Roy, it just needs to go misty and gloat. If it does so, I don't think there's anything Roy can do.

I expect a conversation, not a battle.

[Syldar]

In straight up combat, I see it as going either way due to Durkula's vampire clericness and Roy's sword and undead caster killing specialization. However, I see a few ways that it could be resolved otherwise...
Summon Belkar XIII, which would tilt it in favor of the sharp metal sticks.
The other gods distracting Hel and the demigods so Banjo has time to vote.
Combine the two, Belkar becomes literal sexy shoeless God of war and votes no. Somehow.

[One Skunk Todd]

Would the other clerics raising Durkon count as an attack?

In the main thread I was wondering:

"What would happen to Durkula if the High Priest of Thor were somehow able to strip out Durkon's soul and commend it onward to Valhalla?"

Similar idea.

[theasl]

Would the other clerics raising Durkon count as an attack?


In the main thread I was wondering:

"What would happen to Durkula if the High Priest of Thor were somehow able to strip out Durkon's soul and commend it onward to Valhalla?"

Similar idea.

Well, raising Durkon isn't an option until HPOH is dead - the negative energy of the vampire interferes with the spell, rendering it useless.

[ISitOnGnomes]

But they wouldn't be the clerics of the demigods anymore, they'd be spirits representing Hel. Remember, they have to cast "Summon Proxie" (sic) so that the gods themselves can vote. The priests were not, are not, and will never be the ones voting in this one.

And besides, as pointed out, elemental stone isn't exactly a god, demi or not.

Where is it stated that every spirit that posseses a vampire must be a servent of Hel, and not some demigod. They could be possessed by spirits that conveniently follow a Hel friendly demigod, and now ready to help their new BFF, Durkula.

[theasl]

Where is it stated that every spirit that posseses a vampire must be a servent of Hel, and not some demigod. They could be possessed by spirits that conveniently follow a Hel friendly demigod, and now ready to help their new BFF, Durkula.

Hel is the dwarven god of Death, therefore all undead born of dwarves worship her. She herself says this in 946 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html).

[Kantaki]

Hel is the dwarven god of Death, therefore all undead born of dwarves worship her. She herself says this in 946 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html).

Hel is the goddess of death on the Northern Continent, therefore all vampires created out of dwarves are animated by a spirit from her halls. If they will worship her is another question. It is likely but not inevitable.

(Has someone the relevant quotes handy?)

[Enran]

You guys forgot about the Oracle's prophecy. Durkon is still bound to return to his homelands, "posthumously". It's not possible as a killed vampire, due to the way vampires in D&D die: turning into a gaseous form then dispersing two hours later (no coffin to return to).

Thus, a straight-on kill is impossible.
To the contrary, a full kill is quite possible. Sure, he can return to dwarven lands posthumously as a vampire, but everybody's so focused on that interpretation that they've forgotten he could still potentially return home as a corpse. If Roy kills Durkula in one of the ways that keeps vampires down, the prophecy can still be fulfilled.

[Olinser]

Where is it stated that every spirit that posseses a vampire must be a servent of Hel, and not some demigod. They could be possessed by spirits that conveniently follow a Hel friendly demigod, and now ready to help their new BFF, Durkula.

It's not.

Because its only every spirit that possesses a DWARVEN vampire is a servant of Hel. Since the 2 clerics he has presumably killed and vamped are, in fact, dwarves, then Hel is in control of the spirits.

Malack, on the other hand, was explicitly a servant of Nergal. Which is fine, because he was not a dwarf.

[falsedot]

It's not.

Because its only every spirit that possesses a DWARVEN vampire is a servant of Hel. Since the 2 clerics he has presumably killed and vamped are, in fact, dwarves, then Hel is in control of the spirits.

Malack, on the other hand, was explicitly a servant of Nergal. Which is fine, because he was not a dwarf.

Vampires have free will: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?339912-Vampire-question-settled/page10&p=17331234#post17331234

It would therefore be possible for the vamped priest to start worshipping other deities that would make them their HPs. Of course, it is unlikely that something like that would happen by chance and it would probably be an agreement between Hel and the demigod(s).

Sounds far-fetched though

[Noodz]

C'mon guise, i know talking about mechanics is wasted on Rich, but talking about mechanics is so fun :smallbiggrin:


Anyone who's actually played high level D&D knows that the most efficient way to kill anything is to drop a high level fighter next to it in melee range, and the most effective way to stop such a fighter is to wall him off from melee range from an enemy somehow (this includes attacking weak saving throws, but it's chancy. Anybody can roll well and you wasted your action and are now dead from the full attack.

I would argue that "the most efficiet way to kill anything" has more to do with full spellcasters than with fighters. Anyway, a 14th level cleric has much better spells than simple save-or-dies, as i said before, Antilife Shell will pretty much check-mate Roy as it's a spell that will keep Roy away with no saving throw. It's almost better than Forcecage, since it's also of lower level. Walls of Stone can also be used to protect HPoH from Roy's sword with no save. And so on with Darkness, Airwalk, etc...

It all boils down to who wins initiative and if Roy manages to get close enough to HPoH to ready his spell disrupting attack. But even then the HPoH has a chance: he can move 5-ft step away from Roy (won't trigger an AoO and won't trigger Roy's readied attack) and cast a spell. Blasphemy is an easy choice, it will guarantee Roy is dazed for a full turn with no save, allowing the HPoH to cast a full round protection spell (like Antilife Shell) at his leisure. The aforementioned 4-inch thick Wall of Stone around himself is yet another solid choice.

And once the HPoH is protected from Roy's sword, he can safely spam save-or-dies like dominating gaze. No matter how high Roy's wisdom is or how low Durkon's base charisma, he will eventually fail a will saving throw (for HPoH, the DC is based on 1/2 HD, which makes dominating gaze a DC 17+Cha mod. For Roy, will it's not a primary save for him, which makes his Will bonus save of +4+Wisdom).

Roy can count on buffs, but HPoH can dispel (greater dispel actually), which is particularly effective against minimum level potion buffs. Roy has no way to counter HPoHs buffs other than try to end the fight quickly.

Once again: i am not of the opinion that the HPoH should win this fight, but to show that if this fight was translated to the tabletop game, the caster would win every time. I really hope Rich resolve this one through drama, because the mechanics of D&D 3.5 were not made with drama in mind.

[Seward]

I would argue that "the most efficiet way to kill anything" has more to do with full spellcasters than with fighters.

No, actually not. In terms of damage per round and lack of ways to counter it (spell resistance, saving throws, being immune etc) if the fighter somehow gets next to you and gets his attack, the critters at EL15+ (including CodZilla) don't have the hitpoint total to survive 1 round most of the time, and two...forget it. Dead is the most effective condition, you can't recover from it in combat and usually you can't sleaze around it with teamwork. (there are a handful of spells that can sometimes fix keep hitpoint damage from killing you, or revive you 1 round later in 3.5 and Pathfinder, but none work on undead and all require an ally to intervene). This is why the best standard action of a wizard is often to dim-door the fighter-types next to the most dangerous bad guys, especially if they're delayed and ready to full attack before anybody else can do anything about it. It's also why a high level archer can usually remove one threat a round unless the opponent have a specific counter to archery (typically a wind wall variant. 3.5 has a force arrow enchantment precisely to let wealthy archers have options in that situation, and aquatic bows that shoot effectively underwater also exist)

All of the counters you describe involve not letting the fighter end up next to you. (antilife shell, wall of stone). Wall of stone just delays a fighter for a round, they attack it once and blow away a 5' square (hardness 8, 15 hitpoints is one swing even without the right weapon to ignore hardness, and if they make it extra thick, 15 hitpoint per inch still won't survive a full attack...at 4 inches it's only 92 hitpoints including hardness, and Roy can power attack away, doing about 50 per swing). Antilife shell is more serious, since Roy doesn't seem to have the usual counter (get reach somehow, the easiest being a 50gp potion of enlarge person). Perhaps one of the bodyguards could toss him a reach weapon "oops, my grip slipped and it fell off the balcony"

Blasphemy would be a good choice to get a defensive buff up, except it would affect all the non-evil clerics, thus violating terms of the Godmoot. So that isn't happening. As for the 5' step and cast, well, Roy seems to be able to manage that somehow too (in Pathfinder there's a feat to follow, but in the fight against Miron and the dream sequence against Xykon, neither seemed to be able to just 5' away and cast. Perhaps the feat includes a "step-up" like option if they try to weasel away, or perhaps the feat also includes a "stand still"-like effect without requiring an AOO or perhaps, like Rich's tendency to assume saving throws will fail, he also assumes spellcasters who can reliably cast defensively don't 5' step away from melee threats out of arrogance)

[Sloanzilla]

The "cleric is more powerful than the fighter in 3.X" is a true statement, but I've always felt it largely had to do with "in terms of flat out bypassing challenges as an PC or being useful in multiple situations."

All the overly-discussed tier systems go out the door when you are talking about a 1 on 1 situation from maybe 25 feet away there the cleric hasn't zillad's up with 10 buffs- and the fighter has an undead-bane greatsword.

[eggynack]

The "cleric is more powerful than the fighter in 3.X" is a true statement, but I've always felt it largely had to do with "in terms of flat out bypassing challenges as an PC or being useful in multiple situations."

All the overly-discussed tier systems go out the door when you are talking about a 1 on 1 situation from maybe 25 feet away there the cleric hasn't zillad's up with 10 buffs- and the fighter has an undead-bane greatsword.
The fighter is definitely in a better situation here than he would be in a same encounter test, but the situation definitely isn't good. Too many spells capable of just blanket stopping everything the fighter does, often without any form of interaction. The fighter's only realistic chance is winning initiative and getting the kill in the first round, and there are even defenses against that. Consider HPoH tossing out a death by thorns (BoVD, 91) in the first round, a spell which, by the way, feels incredibly in character. Roy would be trapped for, on average, 2.5 rounds, with no realistic defense. Making the fortitude save just makes the death not automatic, after all. Now our not at all noble cleric has a couple of rounds free for casting whatever he wants, and whatever he wants could include spells that would make Roy victory entirely infeasible.

So, in the best case scenario for the fighter, this is a rocket tag, and realistically, it's actually a one way rocket tag. The cleric definitely will win if given a single free round. The fighter may not, especially when we consider Roy, who seems to lack any sort of pounce ability, thus making the round where he closes in quite lacking. Even the possibility of a surprise round doesn't change things, because fighters are awful at capitalizing on surprise rounds, at least if they have a melee focus. In the end, the odds are significantly tilted towards the cleric, and with some real optimization that couldn't really be applied to this comic, it's possible that we could give the cleric just about perfect victory odds.

[HMS Invincible]

What's wrong with readying an action to cast hold person? That satisfies the smug 'prepared' look on the vampire, and Roy gets delayed. Then you can use that to build up tension, so maybe Belkar can intervene. Alternately, this fight ends with nobody dying, and then the vote goes to the demigods. That buys time for the players to think up a new plan.

Remember, always think like a smarter Elan. What is the most appropriate action based on the story elements already present? What trope is happening right now? How can it be subverted, or played straight?

Most of the other suggestions are terrible story-wise, not entertaining at all.

[eggynack]

What's wrong with readying an action to cast hold person? That satisfies the smug 'prepared' look on the vampire, and Roy gets delayed. Then you can use that to build up tension, so maybe Belkar can intervene. Alternately, this fight ends with nobody dying, and then the vote goes to the demigods. That buys time for the players to think up a new plan.

Remember, always think like a smarter Elan. What is the most appropriate action based on the story elements already present? What trope is happening right now? How can it be subverted, or played straight?

Most of the other suggestions are terrible story-wise, not entertaining at all.
I'm arguing from the opposite of a story perspective, suspending narrative causality in order to analyze what this match up would realistically look like. HPoH doesn't have death by thorns prepared, and he likely never will, because it's as obscure as it is boring. It just does its thing, and that thing sometimes kills the opponent. The thing that's wrong with readying hold person is that it's a suboptimal move from a mechanical perspective, with repeated saves for an effect that's only on par. Entertaining but useless. Basically, you're trying to predict what will happen in the comic, and I'm trying to predict what would happen if optimizers were to take control of these characters, given what we already know about the situation. Both valuable things, but the latter seems to be the discussion of this thread.

[HMS Invincible]

That's easier, a simple stonepass/stonewalking spell. He casted it before, then a hold person, and dominating gaze into blood drain. Other stuff would require odd books and spells that we've never seen him prepare before.

[Seward]

What's wrong with readying an action to cast hold person?

Primarily because the saving through is 6 lower than using a level 8 spell that also does something to stop Roy.
Even the high level spell is risky - he saves you waste a precious action. Going with a low level spell is something you do when attacked by a two-weapon fighter who has the wrong weapons to penetrate your DR (Belkar vs Malak) where if you fail the worst that happens is you take a piddling amount of damage. When the dude charging you can remove 1/3 to 1/2 your hitpoints per swing, you tend to reach for something you think will work better.

I expect HPOH will have something for Roy, but most of his options that don't revolve around trying to keep Roy away from melee range without a saving throw (eg turning into a bat and flying) are risky at best. They MIGHT instantly end the fight, but if they don't he's very quickly dead.

HPOH has only existed a few weeks. He's like somebody given a character at level 16 without playing him for the other 15 levels. He won't be as effective as Durkon or Malak at using his abilities, even though he may have been coached a bit by Hel. So he might well try an all-or-nothing gamble, and have no plan B when Roy has a counter or gets lucky and saves. (Rich clearly understands this dynamic - see Darth V vs Xykon and the banter in that fight)

[Molan]

I think in a straight match up, you're looking at a decisive HPOH victory.

1. Same level as Roy.

2. Is a Cleric.

3. Is a Vampire.

Now, with all of these advantages in his camp, it's worth mentioning that Roy has a few potential advantages too:

1. Surprise Round? (Durkula does not look surprised. Plus Roy may have blown the Surprise Round reaching him).

2. His whole theoretical build is based on killing undead spell-casters, as mentioned before. Pair his +5 Starmetal Sword of Undead Bane with his "Interrupt spells in melee range extra good" feat and you've at least got a menace in close quarters. I happen to think that this approach is far more menacing to say, a Wizard or Sorcerer then a Cleric for a few reasons, but whatever. It's an advantage.

3. Durkula is potentially not taking full advantage of his vampire template. For one, Old-Durkon retains a separate, albeit weakening consciousness still present and distinguished from Durkula. As it's been mentioned, this could wind up becoming a disruptive element in a high stress contest. For two, unless he built a coffin inside the store room on the Mechane, he may not have one. However, Roy has to dusk him in order to take advantage of this disability.

I personally do not believe the Creed of Stone clerics would have much of an impact. First, I'm not convinced he "vamped" them -- I feel it's a 50/50 chance they're just dead and will never be mentioned again. Maybe he was thirsty? It's been mentioned he wouldn't kill them "for no reason", but Durkula is an evil bloodsucking servant of Hel. He may very well have killed them for no reason. I also think that, if they ARE Vampire spawn, they would still need the Accelerate Vampirism spell that Malack used to make Durkula in order to come into play in this fight, which we've seen no evidence that Durkula knows. And even if he had THAT, they would still have a strong possibility of facing resistance from many of the other people in the room, such as clerics of good deities, or the bodyguards in the mezzanine who now know that the fate of the world might hang on this duel. Yea, you could make arguments to the contrary for all of these points, but IMHO, the Creed clerics are negligible.

When you get down to it though, you have to consider that Durkula has just a TON of abilities from being a vampire, not to mention some pretty hefty stat increases. And yea he lost his dwarf bonus to Con but he gained an upgrade from d8s to d12s...which very likely negates that loss at a minimum. If he had lousy Con for a dwarf, all the more so. His strength and Dex are now jacked up higher then they were previously AS IS his Wisdom which will help with his spells. He could be completely disarmed and still hit Roy with Energy Drain, which granted isn't THE MOST powerful move ever but five hits is an added 25 HP off of whatever other damage Durkula does plus some big cuts on BaB and saves, which then puts Roy at risk from Durkula's magic. He can do further Con damage in a grapple contest, which normally Roy would win but that Durkula now stands a decent chance of pulling off.

This is just vampire related stuff. There's a ton of ways that as a Cleric, Durkula can buff the bajeezus out of himself, debuff Roy, and generally just use some pretty devastating spells to disrupt Roy's offensive, period.

Roy, conversely, is a limited-trick pony. He can charge and do a bunch of damage (hey, maybe he has leap attack!), and he appears to be able to overcome DR and do extra hurt against Undead (though Vampire DR is pretty easy to negate anyway, as I recall), and he has taken feats designed to help him fight undead casters. So in addition to his disrupt feat he may have picked up some other tricks. Let's assume that he's at least level 14 (potentially lower then the estimated party average on account of his death). That puts him at 16 feats. So, *I* wouldn't necessarily take Iron Will for my build but Roy seems like he may have done exactly that. Maybe he's taken a whole bunch of feats like that to make him super good at fighting one specific thing.

All in, does that help him beat out a suite of Cleric Spells all being fronted by a now decently-powerful-when-forced-into-melee vampire? I really doubt it.

Now, as others have mentioned, Roy does not have to beat Durkon, just find a way to eliminate his vote. And Roy has a much better Int score then "most fighters" (paraphrasing him), so he's already figured this out. He didn't have to "beat Thog" either, just lure him into a place where Thog beat himself by knocking out all the roof supports. Roy is typically at his best when approaching the situation tactically rather then, "run in and stab the Lich". He's at his WORST that way.

So, if you're "Playing Roy", you attempt to corral the HPOH out of the room. If you charge in and swing at him you could wind up repeating getting you sword shattered or being thrown at the earth and losing the game.

[Quartz]

Hel's vote only counts if she's present at the Moot, right? So Roy succeeds if she's dismissed. This means the question becomes, how long can the Summon Proxy spell last? Or, can Durkula defeat Roy without losing the Summon Proxy spell? (Or a recasting thereof, as Durkula could have memorised it twice.)

So, is the Summon Proxy spell a fire-and-forget spell or does Durkula have to concentrate on maintaining it? Have we seen any clues? Because Roy can force a very high DC on Durkula's Concentration check.

[eggynack]

Hel's vote only counts if she's present at the Moot, right? So Roy succeeds if she's dismissed. This means the question becomes, how long can the Summon Proxy spell last? Or, can Durkula defeat Roy without losing the Summon Proxy spell? (Or a recasting thereof, as Durkula could have memorised it twice.)

So, is the Summon Proxy spell a fire-and-forget spell or does Durkula have to concentrate on maintaining it? Have we seen any clues? Because Roy can force a very high DC on Durkula's Concentration check.
I think she only needs a physical representative, rather than actual presence, which means Durkula himself being there. Obviously can't be certain currently, but that's what has been indicated so far. Also, looks like Hel is hanging out just fine despite the current fight, to touch on later information.

[King of Nowhere]

From a D&D perspective, it could go either way. Normally, a cleric smokes a fighter, but in this case, the fighter has good saving throws, a homebrewed spell-disrupting move, and an undead bane sword. Plus, he's already in melee. We don't have exact numbers because much of this stuff is homemade, but it should at least give him a decent chance. Durkula could try a save or die, that could work or not. Or he has a few tricks that bypass saving throws, but they can be countered in other ways. For example, someone mentioned that the life repelling shelll can be countered by a potion of enlarge person, giving enough reach to still attack the cleric. Rich can write either side winning without anyone having any ground to call sheanigans.

From a story perspective, the fight will focus on the internal struggle of durkon with the vampire, on roy and durkon's friendship meaning each knows the other's weaknesses. Belkar coming back, or the other vamped clerics, may intervene at the right moment.

From a meta-story perspective, the world clearly won't end now, so roy will succeed in making durkula dismiss the proxy, and durkon is still fated to bring death and destruction to the dwarves, which he won't if he's destroied, so he will survive. The fight will end with roy winning but failing to kill the vampire.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

I know a lot of rules nerds (:smallwink:) have run the numbers for Roy v. Durkula, and probably ran them a while ago. I mean, surprises aside, the story was clearly headed this way.

But what about the other numbers? Belkar was last seen falling to his death, but we didn't see the X's over his eyes, so he's not out yet. Where are V, Hailey, and Elan? Does V have a spell to rescue Belkar in time? Will V even care to rescue Belkar, if Elan and/or Hailey are not around to insist?

What are the odds against Roy+Belkar v. Durkula? How about the bulk of the team against Big D?

Unlike the "She Who Must Not Be Named" fight, Durkula doesn't have a horse to stop the secondary fighter, and no one else will be skipping this fight for moral reasons. It would be up to a 5v1 fight, not 3v1, with an injured Elan neither helping nor hindering.

Gotta get back to work, but I'm glad I caught this on my lunch break. Looking forward to any answers, and rechecking page 2 if someone already did the numbers crunch.

[theasl]

I personally do not believe the Creed of Stone clerics would have much of an impact. First, I'm not convinced he "vamped" them -- I feel it's a 50/50 chance they're just dead and will never be mentioned again. Maybe he was thirsty? It's been mentioned he wouldn't kill them "for no reason", but Durkula is an evil bloodsucking servant of Hel. He may very well have killed them for no reason. I also think that, if they ARE Vampire spawn, they would still need the Accelerate Vampirism spell that Malack used to make Durkula in order to come into play in this fight, which we've seen no evidence that Durkula knows. And even if he had THAT, they would still have a strong possibility of facing resistance from many of the other people in the room, such as clerics of good deities, or the bodyguards in the mezzanine who now know that the fate of the world might hang on this duel. Yea, you could make arguments to the contrary for all of these points, but IMHO, the Creed clerics are negligible.

Well - draining someone turns them into a vampire by default. HPOH can't choose whether he wants them to become vampires or not, short of not draining them all the way (which he didn't do for Gontor and presumably did not for the other). However, I do think you're right about the rest.

[Spartakus]

I know a lot of rules nerds (:smallwink:) have run the numbers for Roy v. Durkula, and probably ran them a while ago. I mean, surprises aside, the story was clearly headed this way.

But what about the other numbers? Belkar was last seen falling to his death, but we didn't see the X's over his eyes, so he's not out yet. Where are V, Hailey, and Elan? Does V have a spell to rescue Belkar in time? Will V even care to rescue Belkar, if Elan and/or Hailey are not around to insist?

What are the odds against Roy+Belkar v. Durkula? How about the bulk of the team against Big D?

Unlike the "She Who Must Not Be Named" fight, Durkula doesn't have a horse to stop the secondary fighter, and no one else will be skipping this fight for moral reasons. It would be up to a 5v1 fight, not 3v1, with an injured Elan neither helping nor hindering.

Gotta get back to work, but I'm glad I caught this on my lunch break. Looking forward to any answers, and rechecking page 2 if someone already did the numbers crunch.

Interesting question. I think it also provides a very good reason why Vampire Durkon might have some real problems fighting Roy.

We can safely assume that the HPoH is familiar with the rules of the godsmoot and knew that he would have two bodyguards he might have to fight at some point. Since Roy is the OOTS-leader he would surely be one of them wich leaves one open spot. Roy choose Belkar but one can find reasons to bring any other member of the order with him.
Lets have a look at these options from HPoHs point of view:

1. Belkar, chosen because he would propably come anyway.
Melee warrior with good chances to hit but bad chances to do significant damage. Small-sized penalties to trip and grapple. Abysmal will-save. Vampire-abilities will do just fine.

2. Haley, chosen because of being second in command and being good in bluff/sense motive.
Rogue, basically useless in a fight against a vampire. Sneak attack doesn't work. Can use some wands but nothing dangerous.

3. Elan, chosen because of bardic knowledge about the gods and priests and diplomatic skills.
Bard with a prestige-class that makes him hit sometimes. Can boost the fighter by singing but otherwise useless in combat against a vampire.

4. V, chosen because of sheer firepower in case somethings goes really wrong.
Bad, Really Bad. Evoker wizards can do a lot of damage every round and other nasty stuff too. In case I have to fight Roy and V, kill the Elf as quickly as possible and then use harm to remove any damage (s)he has done. Good will-save, not so good fortitute-save.

So, since HPoH didn't know who would be choosen as his bodyguard it would be wise to prepare for the single case that promises the most trouble. And that is the vampire cleric vs. wizard & fighter battle. Since one spell slot (propably a high level one) was needed for summon proxy he may haven't prepared any high spells at all to fight Roy but rather some fortitude-save or die spells. Which are mostly useless against a high level fighter. Even more so if Durkons Spirit convinced him that he could talk Roy into talking.

On the other hand harm works equally well to kill of a fighter too. But it is more of an even fight.

[theMycon]

... as i said before, Antilife Shell will pretty much check-mate Roy as it's a spell that will keep Roy away with no saving throw...
Anti-life spell has a 1 round casting time spell. This is different from 1 standard action.
It's safe to assume that any spell with a 1 round or greater casting time won't happen. Ditto any spells that require melee in any way.

While we're not certain of Durkon's exact AC or Roy's exact hit bonus, it's pretty safe to assume his first attack has a 95% chance to hit*, and with no CON score Durk is has a very good chance of blowing his concentration save. The chance of at least one unlikely thing happening in several trials is pretty good, but I wouldn't bet on it when my (un)life is on the line.

Also an anti-life shell would collapse if any living creature was within 10 when it was cast; meaning he'd have to disable Roy for a round first. If he'd done that, why would he need a second spell?

*If the plate, shield, and Amulet are all +3 or greater, and Roy has fewest possible bonuses accounted for in the Character Stats thread & his sword is "+5 of undead bane"; that'd give Roy a mere 90% to hit without charging/power attack.

You guys forgot about the Oracle's prophecy. Durkon is still bound to return to his homelands, "posthumously". It's not possible as a killed vampire, due to the way vampires in D&D die: turning into a gaseous form then dispersing two hours later (no coffin to return to).

Thus, a straight-on kill is impossible.
Posthumous just means "after death." He could be rezzed and it would still count. It wouldn't be what's expected, but if you hadn't noticed, the Oracle is big on "technically correct is still correct."


Roy's chances aren't great. There are a whole lot of "will save or lose" spells available to a cleric; Roy's will save probably isn't fabulous, Harm would heal Durkula to full, and it would take a LOT of luck for one round of full attacks to down Durkula (and average luck to do it in 2). Roy needs a little bit of luck every single round, and Durkula needs to get lucky once. That said, this thread has pointed out at least a dozen ways Roy can get aid.

[Kantaki]

Posthumous just means "after death." He could be rezzed and it would still count. It wouldn't be what's expected, but if you hadn't noticed, the Oracle is big on "technically correct is still correct."

It's less that the Oracle's answers are only technically correct, it's that the little, orange troll of a kobold loves giving answers that are literally true and very straightforward while being as misleading and unhelpful as possible.

So far almost all predictions (Haley's excluded and even that was very straightforward) came true in the way he said them. That the information was unhelpful or even misleading isn't the Oracle's fault.

The reaction to Durkon being resurrected and returning home would be: "What? I did say the dwarf would return posthumously, didn't I? Did he die before going home or not?"

[King of Nowhere]

For the math, the CD to resist the vampiric gaze is 10 + half the vampire's hit dice + CHA. so we're looking at 10 + 7 (durkon is at least level 14, but no evidence he's 16) + 0 or 1 (durkon has CHA penalty, +4 for being a vampire). So, a CD of 17 or 18.

Roy, on the other hand, has +4 for being a fighter, and +2 or 3 from his wisdom (he has enough wisdom that the deva sugggested he became a cleric). Which would give roy slightly less than even chances.
On the other hand, given how many feats fighters get, and that roy has been planning to fight a spellcaster since before his fourth level, I'd be fairly surprised if he hadn't taken the iron will feat, which would add another +2, giving him even chances to resist. If he also invested in will-buffing magic items (again, a must for a fighter that wants to have a chance against a spellcaster) he may save with as low as 5.
As a last point, "actions against the target's nature" is a very loose definition to decide whether you get a second saving throw. One may argue that fighting when there is a chance to try diplomacy is definitely within roy's nature; but on the other hand, not attacking somebody who is trying to destroy the world (and will succeed in doing so very quickly unless stopped) is definitely against roy's nature.

So, there are many uncertainties, but roy is pretty safe from the gaze. A spell of equal level, benefitting from durkula's high wisdom, would have bettr chances.


Roy's chances aren't great. There are a whole lot of "will save or lose" spells available to a cleric; Roy's will save probably isn't fabulous, Harm would heal Durkula to full, and it would take a LOT of luck for one round of full attacks to down Durkula

You are forgetting two factors: first, vampirig gaze is a standard action. if durkon uses it, he does not heal himself. if durkon heals himself every turn, he will do nothing to kill roy, and he will run out of harm and die. second, harm is a spell, and it can be disrupted by an attack of opportunity just like any other spell.

[Shining Wrath]

First, let's ask ourselves what the HPoH is prepared for.

He had to prepare spells last night. He has to consider several possibilities when doing so.
1) Fighting Roy
2) Fighting Belkar
3) Having to cast Summon Proxy more than once
4) The possibility that Vaarsuvius and / or Haley realize what's up and he has to fight them before leaving the ship
5) A fight with other high priests
6) Other stuff I haven't thought of yet but which HPoH would have

That's a minimum set of possibilities.

Therefore, the HPoH cannot be optimized solely for (1).

Second, consider the HPoH's look of astonishment in the final panel. It appears that he was unaware that Roy had a decent Will save. He is cocky, we know that for certain; he may have thought Roy required only his Dominate ability. He may not have chosen any spells with fighting Roy in mind at all. It's even possible he didn't prepare Divine Power today.

Third, we do not know the level of Summon Proxy; it may require a high level slot (we know Hel had no voice because she lacked any cleric capable of casting it), and HPoH might have prepared multiple instances of it as a contingency - suppose Roy had figured things out a minute earlier and disrupted the original casting? Therefore, it is possible that HPoH has less high level slots available to fight Roy, and that the remaining slots are filled with things he doesn't want to use right now (area of effect spells, spells that attack the Will save).

Fourth, if we assume that HPoH did not think Roy would pose more of a challenge than Belkar has, then he is almost certainly going to access Durkon's memories for information about Roy's capabilities. But Roy has learned and grown over 1000 strips; if Durkon chooses carefully from his vast set of Roy memories, he can mislead the HPoH. And with a high level fighter with an undead-smiting sword 5' away, the HPoH does not have actions to waste.

Conclusion: pride goeth before a fall says the proverb; and in this case, the fall is going to involve being hit with a magic greatsword.

[Seward]

The most important part of the fight for Roy's chances has already happened.

He got next to Durkula, and Durkula failed to counter it or run away. (leading with a feat that causes Durkula to be prone was a smart move on Roy's part - that attack seems to be some kind of combined attack+bull rush+trip, we have seen him use it on others - Miko and Sabine). So Durkula had no withdraw option, and he chose to stand up (eating an AOO which missed) and try a save-lose effect.

Because it was a SU ability, Roy's spell-interrupting feat didn't happen, and because the DC was moderate and Roy's got a decent-if-not-amazing will save, the odds were very low he could both stick the spell (which he seemed to do) and make Roy do something against his nature (save again at +2). Roy likely had at least a 50/50 chance of the first save, that means at least a 60% chance at the second and the odds of failing both are about 20% (or worse, if his odds on the first save are even a little better).

So now, HPOH has done nothing and learned nothing about Roy except that he can shake off a dominate, and Roy has hit him twice, although I don't think the knockdown effect hurt Durkula much (probably no power attack at all to maximize odds of the special knockdown/back effect working).

Roy's now got his full attack. We see only the first swing....

And what will Durkula do next? Probably try to cast a spell. ANOTHER wasted action if interrupted. And ANOTHER full attack (or at least AOO as he tries to move away) to endure.

Durkula's best odds are to flee, eat an AOO to do so, hope Roy doesn't trip him again while doing so and THEN try to cast a spell. But he won't know to do that until he fails some kind of awful touch-attack spell (Roy's a lot easier to touch than to hit in melee) that will likely be interrupted.

Odds are tipping rapidly to Roy, and most of the shenanigans that could tip the fight further are all on Roy's side (Durkon misleading him, Belkar getting rescued and intervening are the top two) or fairly irrelevant (vamped clerics get one action against Roy before getting great cleaved or vaporized by the rest of the clerics)

Most of the "cleric+vamp > fighter" arguments ignore action economy - assume prebuffing or some kind of battlefield control that means the melee can't get to you until you hammer him with enough stuff that something works. Right now HPOH is struggling to make use of his swift+std+move action - his potential is great but he can still only do a very limited number of things a round, and Roy's proving better at making his actions move the fight his way. He's in a similar situation to Lizard-V against the black dragon. "the problem with your strategy is your hitpoint total". HPOH can always still win if Roy gets unlucky (a nat 1 to interrupt a spell with an attack, a bad save following....), but the odds are now much better than they were in episode 1000

[eggynack]

Most of the "cleric+vamp > fighter" arguments ignore action economy - assume prebuffing or some kind of battlefield control that means the melee can't get to you until you hammer him with enough stuff that something works.
Actually, what most of the arguments do is assume that Durkula will take optimal actions. He will not take optimal actions within the comic, which is why he has a chance at losing. As I noted above, a single successful casting of death by thorns (by which I mean that he just manages to cast it, rather than that Roy fails his save) would mean at least a round and probably more of free time for Durkula. That could mean some of those buffs or BFC's you mentioned, because he would have the time for them, or it could mean some high powered direct action, of which a cleric has many.

Unless Durkula finds complete victory, which is unlikely, most comics will feature worse and worse odds for him (or realistically, by narrative convention, about half of the comics), primarily because he is taking actions worse than those theoretical optimal ones. He was inevitably going to take those suboptimal actions, both because of story, and because Rich wouldn't be likely to know the most optimal actions even if he wanted to use them. In other words, the assertions in this thread were never going to have any sort of predictive quality with regards to the outcome of things. And even if Durkula mostly wins, it won't be by way of the methods listed in this thread.

[Olinser]

The most important part of the fight for Roy's chances has already happened.

He got next to Durkula, and Durkula failed to counter it or run away. (leading with a feat that causes Durkula to be prone was a smart move on Roy's part - that attack seems to be some kind of combined attack+bull rush+trip, we have seen him use it on others - Miko and Sabine). So Durkula had no withdraw option, and he chose to stand up (eating an AOO which missed) and try a save-lose effect.

Because it was a SU ability, Roy's spell-interrupting feat didn't happen, and because the DC was moderate and Roy's got a decent-if-not-amazing will save, the odds were very low he could both stick the spell (which he seemed to do) and make Roy do something against his nature (save again at +2). Roy likely had at least a 50/50 chance of the first save, that means at least a 60% chance at the second and the odds of failing both are about 20% (or worse, if his odds on the first save are even a little better).

So now, HPOH has done nothing and learned nothing about Roy except that he can shake off a dominate, and Roy has hit him twice, although I don't think the knockdown effect hurt Durkula much (probably no power attack at all to maximize odds of the special knockdown/back effect working).

Roy's now got his full attack. We see only the first swing....

And what will Durkula do next? Probably try to cast a spell. ANOTHER wasted action if interrupted. And ANOTHER full attack (or at least AOO as he tries to move away) to endure.

Durkula's best odds are to flee, eat an AOO to do so, hope Roy doesn't trip him again while doing so and THEN try to cast a spell. But he won't know to do that until he fails some kind of awful touch-attack spell (Roy's a lot easier to touch than to hit in melee) that will likely be interrupted.

Odds are tipping rapidly to Roy, and most of the shenanigans that could tip the fight further are all on Roy's side (Durkon misleading him, Belkar getting rescued and intervening are the top two) or fairly irrelevant (vamped clerics get one action against Roy before getting great cleaved or vaporized by the rest of the clerics)

Most of the "cleric+vamp > fighter" arguments ignore action economy - assume prebuffing or some kind of battlefield control that means the melee can't get to you until you hammer him with enough stuff that something works. Right now HPOH is struggling to make use of his swift+std+move action - his potential is great but he can still only do a very limited number of things a round, and Roy's proving better at making his actions move the fight his way. He's in a similar situation to Lizard-V against the black dragon. "the problem with your strategy is your hitpoint total". HPOH can always still win if Roy gets unlucky (a nat 1 to interrupt a spell with an attack, a bad save following....), but the odds are now much better than they were in episode 1000

No, most of the cleric+vamp > fighter arguments rely on him ACTUALLY BEING SMART and taking 'save or Durkula wins' actions. Not taking 'save or get a second easier save' actions.

Roy failed his first Will save. If that action had been Plane Shift (the spell that most optimizers thought he should open with) or Repulsion this fight would have already ended in Durkula's favor.

[Seward]

Except that casting a touch spell means Roy interrupts with his mage-slayer feat.

So instead of having to make a will save, he does more damage and Durkula's wasted an action.

That's probably coming next, if Durkula sticks to his current approach of trying to win a fight rather than trying to accomplish his objective (such as turning into a bat and flying out of reach).

Also "death by thorns" is not exactly a common spell. I played 3.x from the time it was written to when Hasbro killed it, including a fair bit of level 12-16 play with lots of clerics and never saw it cast, so I'm assuming it was from a late-game splatbook (and I was pretty up on those, eg, I've seen most of the stuff in the Spell Compendium used if it was of any use at all). There are plenty of good Core options but they all have issues (touch spells vs mage-slayer, 1 round casting times like summons or anti-life-shell etc) when you have a fighter in your face. He can step away and cast a touch spell and hold the charge I guess, but that implies a system mastery unlikely from a spirit who has only existed for a few weeks.

Really that's the largest problem - clerics have a zillion options until they prep their spells. Prepping spells properly requires significant system mastery as well as guessing right what the day will bring. Then in combat they have to pick the right option of whatever they've prepared while under stress. Using what you've got effectively also takes practice and experience. All those extra vampire abilities actually make it worse, they add more mediocre options without adding anything that's likely to save his ass with an angry fighter in his face.

HPOH is acting like a new player who read up on the rules (as with the Control Weather spell) but hasn't actually played much. And as others have noted, most of his spell slots are probably filled with spells designed for other potential threats today. If he really thought spamming dominate would get it done on Roy, he is very likely to have filled up his slots with Anti-V or Anti-Cleric stuff. Given that he was able to defeat Belkar repeatedly (including today) with just plain vampire abilities he likely assumed the same would apply to any other melee character, not yet realizing the build matters quite a bit and the player's experience with the character often matters even more.

(Roy is stronger than Belkar, bigger than Belkar and has several battlefield control feats, making him a lot harder to grapple, toss out of buildings etc. He's optimized to fight an epic lich, so he has at least middling saves and a crapton of hitpoints. He's the heavy infantry of the party, so he has good AC, as opposed to the TWF/Barbarian/Ranger and Dashing Swordsman light infantry tyupes in the party. Also he swings less often than Belkar but hits like a truck, so DR matters less, even assuming that sword is affected by Vampire DR. But more importantly he's making good use of his action economy, keeping Durkula fighting on his terms when Durkula should be never, ever, letting a fighter end a round next to him)

[bguy]

The most important part of the fight for Roy's chances has already happened.

He got next to Durkula, and Durkula failed to counter it or run away. (leading with a feat that causes Durkula to be prone was a smart move on Roy's part - that attack seems to be some kind of combined attack+bull rush+trip, we have seen him use it on others - Miko and Sabine). So Durkula had no withdraw option, and he chose to stand up (eating an AOO which missed) and try a save-lose effect.


I don't think Roy's attack that missed was an AOO in regards to Durkula getting back on his feet. In panel 4, Durkon is already back on his feet and is shown with a red glow around him (which suggests Durkula cast a spell on himself.) If Roy was going to get an AOO for Durkula getting back on his feet, wouldn't that attack have happened before Durkula could cast a spell?


Durkula's best odds are to flee, eat an AOO to do so, hope Roy doesn't trip him again while doing so and THEN try to cast a spell. But he won't know to do that until he fails some kind of awful touch-attack spell (Roy's a lot easier to touch than to hit in melee) that will likely be interrupted.

Durkula should already know about Roy's anti-spell casting feat. (Didn't he witness that feat in action first hand when he saw Roy disrupt Miron's spell casting in strip 928.) Thus I doubt he will try and cast a spell within Roy's attack range.

[King of Nowhere]

Durkula should already know about Roy's anti-spell casting feat. (Didn't he witness that feat in action first hand when he saw Roy disrupt Miron's spell casting in strip 928.) Thus I doubt he will try and cast a spell within Roy's attack range.

Was roy using his feat then? it's not the first time we see a spellcaster interrupted by an attack. after all, while D&D works by turn, and so a spellcaster cast a spell and that's it, in practice casting a spell takes time, and people attacking you may interfere with it even when they weren't careful about timing. heck, casting most spells is a partial action, it takes 3 seconds, people with three attack per round attack every two seconds, meaning the caster will get hit once or twice while casting even if they aren't trying to make an aoo. That's more evident in rpg videogames, where everything happens at once and getting interrupted is much easier than it is in pen-and-paper play.

EDIT: also, roy had just dodged tarquin's attempt to protect the caster, so it's less likely he times the attack and more that he just happened to hit while myron was casting.

[bguy]

Was roy using his feat then? it's not the first time we see a spellcaster interrupted by an attack. after all, while D&D works by turn, and so a spellcaster cast a spell and that's it, in practice casting a spell takes time, and people attacking you may interfere with it even when they weren't careful about timing. heck, casting most spells is a partial action, it takes 3 seconds, people with three attack per round attack every two seconds, meaning the caster will get hit once or twice while casting even if they aren't trying to make an aoo. That's more evident in rpg videogames, where everything happens at once and getting interrupted is much easier than it is in pen-and-paper play.

EDIT: also, roy had just dodged tarquin's attempt to protect the caster, so it's less likely he times the attack and more that he just happened to hit while myron was casting.

Maybe, though it would seem odd for Roy not to be using the feat there. (He spends a feat on this ability that will help him disrupt spell casting, and then does not bother to use it when he is specifically targeting a high level spell caster?) At any rate even if Roy did not actually use the spell disruption feat against Miron, Durkula still witnessed Roy successfully disrupting a spell caster with a well timed attack. That experience alone should be enough to make Durkula cautious about casting spells in close range to Roy. (Durkula knows Miron was a powerful spell caster, so obviously if Roy is capable of disrupting his spell casting then Roy also has the potential to do the same to Durkula.)

[Shining Wrath]

Not sure if anyones pointed this out yet, but Durkula is already summoning a fiend as seen in strip http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html

That's how he looks when casting any spell.


Where is it stated that every spirit that posseses a vampire must be a servent of Hel, and not some demigod. They could be possessed by spirits that conveniently follow a Hel friendly demigod, and now ready to help their new BFF, Durkula.

Word of Giant is that all vampires for worshipers of the Northern Pantheon come from Hel.

[theMycon]

You are forgetting two factors: first, vampiric gaze is a standard action. if durkon uses it, he does not heal himself. if durkon heals himself every turn, he will do nothing to kill roy, and he will run out of harm and die. second, harm is a spell, and it can be disrupted by an attack of opportunity just like any other spell.

I'm not forgetting, I'm just ignoring that. "I can heal myself to full in a standard action" is likely to buy Durk more than one standard action in the future, as Roy probably cannot down him in 1 round. It may not be an ideal use of an action, but it's a worthwhile action.

Similarly, I'm ignoring Durkula using Fort-Save-or-Lose spells & abilities that rely on HP damage, because Fighter. And I'm ignoring Gaseous form because it opens too many questions I cannot answer, like "can Roy reach 20' into the air somehow" and "Exactly what happens if he reduces Gas-Vamp-Durk to 0 HP"?



I agree with Seward; Durkula's best option is "eat an AoO and then cast a spell", and Roy's is "lay the smack down as fast as you can; corner him if possible." Again, Durk needs to get lucky ONCE, and Roy needs to keep luck until he eats through the HP (but he *could* do that in another 1-2 rounds).

I'm of the "stylized success on a saving throw" camp rather than "failed, then success on saving throw vs sit still" camp. He was in control of himself the whole time, swirly eyes or no.

I also agree with the thread-as-a-whole, it's more likely that there will be unknowable outside intervention(s) that decide the fight, rather than "HP Damage vs Save or Lose".

[eggynack]

Also "death by thorns" is not exactly a common spell. I played 3.x from the time it was written to when Hasbro killed it, including a fair bit of level 12-16 play with lots of clerics and never saw it cast, so I'm assuming it was from a late-game splatbook (and I was pretty up on those, eg, I've seen most of the stuff in the Spell Compendium used if it was of any use at all). There are plenty of good Core options but they all have issues (touch spells vs mage-slayer, 1 round casting times like summons or anti-life-shell etc) when you have a fighter in your face. He can step away and cast a touch spell and hold the charge I guess, but that implies a system mastery unlikely from a spirit who has only existed for a few weeks.
Actually, it's from an early game splat book, particularly the book of vile darkness, a 3.0 book whose contents are legal in 3.5 by virtue of not being updated. Whether it's obscure or not, meanwhile, is irrelevant. I couldn't care less about the story with regards to this discussion. I am talking about a vampire cleric versus a human fighter, optimized in a way in keeping with what we know already about their builds. I don't touch feats much for this, especially on the cleric side, because those are more fixed.

[Seward]

Actually, it's from an early game splat book, particularly the book of vile darkness, a 3.0 book whose contents are legal in 3.5 by virtue of not being updated. Whether it's obscure or not, meanwhile, is irrelevant. I couldn't care less about the story with regards to this discussion. I am talking about a vampire cleric versus a human fighter, optimized in a way in keeping with what we know already about their builds. I don't touch feats much for this, especially on the cleric side, because those are more fixed.

Mass Haste from 3.0 was never updated either, although there were later spells that let you cast more than one spell per std action. I take all 3.0 content with a serious grain of salt, the spells especially were often not well thought out and even a lot of the later content had to be eratta'd constantly (anybody remember the Spikes spell? or the original Doomtide?)

[Molan]

Well - draining someone turns them into a vampire by default. HPOH can't choose whether he wants them to become vampires or not, short of not draining them all the way (which he didn't do for Gontor and presumably did not for the other). However, I do think you're right about the rest.

Don't you create spawn via energy drain?

Do we know for a fact he wasn't using Blood Drain instead?

My understanding is that the Vampires do have an option once they've got someone in a grapple.

Now, again, your point's not completely invalid but since he had his fangs in them anyway, seemed to me he could kill them via blood draining their CON to 0 and leaving them dead husks.

[eggynack]

Mass Haste from 3.0 was never updated either, although there were later spells that let you cast more than one spell per std action. I take all 3.0 content with a serious grain of salt, the spells especially were often not well thought out and even a lot of the later content had to be eratta'd constantly (anybody remember the Spikes spell? or the original Doomtide?)
Nah, mass haste was explicitly deleted in the transition through the update booklet (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a). Not really sure why I should take 3.0 content with a grain of salt and not do the same for, y'know, core 3.5 content too, at least on the basis of ridiculous spells. Polymorph is right there in core, after all, as are a bunch of other spells.

[Shining Wrath]

Mass Haste from 3.0 was never updated either, although there were later spells that let you cast more than one spell per std action. I take all 3.0 content with a serious grain of salt, the spells especially were often not well thought out and even a lot of the later content had to be eratta'd constantly (anybody remember the Spikes spell? or the original Doomtide?)


Actually, it's from an early game splat book, particularly the book of vile darkness, a 3.0 book whose contents are legal in 3.5 by virtue of not being updated. Whether it's obscure or not, meanwhile, is irrelevant. I couldn't care less about the story with regards to this discussion. I am talking about a vampire cleric versus a human fighter, optimized in a way in keeping with what we know already about their builds. I don't touch feats much for this, especially on the cleric side, because those are more fixed.

I know a lot of DMs (including me) who ban BoVD and BoED because they include some terribly unbalanced stuff; Mind Rape comes to mind as a spell that lets high level casters take over entire kingdoms. I would not expect Rich to let terribly imbalanced spells from 3.0 splat books come into the strip if it interferes with the story.

[eggynack]

I know a lot of DMs (including me) who ban BoVD and BoED because they include some terribly unbalanced stuff; Mind Rape comes to mind as a spell that lets high level casters take over entire kingdoms. I would not expect Rich to let terribly imbalanced spells from 3.0 splat books come into the strip if it interferes with the story.
Again, don't care at all, not even the littlest bit, what Rich will allow in his comic. It's completely irrelevant. I don't care about how various decisions would make the story turn out. I don't care that certain choices would be ones Rich would just be unlikely to know about. All I care about is the actual topic of the thread, which is whether a human fighter could win against a vampire cleric in a straight up fight, given the assumption that anything we know about their builds from the comic holds true for the fight in question. Because, as inevitable as the cleric's victory is in this theoretical setup, his failure in the comic, or at least his failure at this one goal this one time, is equally inevitable.

Edit: Also, incidentally, don't care about balance, given that the entire point is that clerics have some imbalanced stuff. I do dispute the idea that those books are especially imbalanced, however. Mind rape is a great spell, but it's also a 9th level spell, and so has to compete in the arena of brokenness with stuff like shapechange, gate, and ice assassin.

[King of Nowhere]

All I care about is the actual topic of the thread, which is whether a human fighter could win against a vampire cleric in a straight up fight, given the assumption that anything we know about their builds from the comic holds true for the fight in question.

I don't see how that automaticallly implies that broken spells from obscure splatbook are allowed. In fact, "anything we know about their builds" do imply that they are mostly limited to core. We rarely see people using non-core stuff in the comic, so it is a good assumption that they don't exist in the setting. Furthermore, "anything we know about their builds" do include, as other argued, that durkula probably did not prepare his spell selection for fighting roy, but rather for V, and it also includes that durkula saw fit to initiate the fight with an attempt to dominate, because according to his (flawed) knowledge that would have been the best choice against roy.
We are arguing about this fighter against this cleric vampire. We don't need to argue about a generic fighter against a generic cleric vampire, because we all know how that would end.

So the topic is a vampire cleric that has not buffed preemptively and probably has not designed his spell selection for the day with that encounter in mind against a fighter with good saving throws that has already locked him in melee and has a mage-disrupting feat. Which I'd call pretty much the only scenario of fighter vs cleric where the fighter has an actual advantage.

[Seward]

So in round 2-3 of the fight we learn....

1. Durkula has a good AC or Roy's using too much power attack. But he's still a high level fighter, so even with several misses he got some pain in. That kind of grinding reliability, always doing SOME damage, is part of why fighters can actually be useful. Roy did more than Durkula, who wasted a round with hold person. If hold person is the best save-suck stopper he has, this is not going to go well. It is, however, a spell he can cast by stepping away and not having to cast defensively.

2. The next round seems to have Durkula using an inflict spell of some kind and Roy's mage-slayer feat not coming into play. So perhaps he is smart enough to step back and ready a touch spell.

The high AC will do a lot to make this fight drag out, but Durkula didn't seem to have a very good spell mix for this fight if he's challenging Roy's hitpoints with inflict spells after only 2 tries with save/xxx.

[King of Nowhere]

Well, all fights in oots tend to be protracted, because real high level fights in D&D are done in a few rounds at most. Therefore, characters tend to soak more damage than even their huge hp total would allow, misses are more common than they would be otherwise, and save-or-die spells either are not used, or people tend to make the saving throw more often than they should, unless it's for story, like belkar or thog. Similarly, the willpower of characters is more depending on their perosnality than on their base save. elan should have a will save similar to roy, with his high base progression compensating for the huge difference in wisdom, but in the comic he clearly has less willpower than roy, because roy is clearly the strong-willed one of them.
Therefore, even if we know that, by the numbers, roy should off durkula in 2-3 turns, and durkula has a decent-to-fair chance to overcome roy's saving throw at every round, we'lll see a much longer fight. That's one of the acceptable breaks from the rules as written.

[Seward]

Upon reflection, what we're seeing is not quite as bad for Durkula as I indicated in my prior post, but still pretty bad.

He's working through his non-touch spells/effects. First his two will save (dominate hold person). He doesn't have a third will save option, so now he's using a high level fort save option (destruction). He likely doesn't have all that many of those before he's reduced to touch range spells, where he can start tapping will save again (harm, slay living, plane shift).

That's likely when the other shoe drops and he experiences the mage slayer feat, because he can't do a touch spell+attack in the same round without casting defensively. So his first nasty touch spell is very likely to be interrupted and then he's going to have to come up with a new approach in the heat of combat to stay in this thing. Probably he tries stepping back and casting harm on himself to buy a few more rounds to try something new, which has the potential of extending the fight for Rich's dramatic purposes.

On the other side, Roy's only hitting about 1 in 3, which means Durkula has serious AC - reasonable with fullplate, shield, natural armor boost from vampire and very likely +3-4 on both armor and shield by pre-casting two 3rd level cleric spells that last all day (if he's level 16, it is a +4).

What we haven't seen yet on Roy's side is if he's missing because he's power attacking (easing up could have him hit 2x/rnd instead of 1x which will make a pretty big damage/round difference) or also what effect the green fire will have once it comes out...and it will, and may significantly tip the "how many rounds D has to take down Roy before he runs out of hp). so if Rich wants to end things quickly, what could happen is something like this:

Durkula steps up and tries to plane-shift Roy away. Roy interrupts with an AOO and with sword flaming, opens up some whup-ass, maybe hitting him 2 more times, and kills him outright. (in the dream sequence his sword was flaming on every swing against Xykon once it started, so it might stay "lit" once it procs). If Durkula's got two hits already in him when this occurs, 3 more hits with whatever the green fire does (likely ignore DR, possibly also adds damage) will very likely run him out of hitpoints.

So depending on how Rich wants it to play out, he's got a lot of good options that won't leave hard core mechanics geeks like me shaking my head and muttering about railroading by "Rule of Drama". Even in the extended scenario though, Durkula's odds of winning drop with each round played, as his best spells get used up or interrupted and as damage mounts so a sudden burst can kill him before he gets to react with self-healing.

[bguy]

Upon reflection, what we're seeing is not quite as bad for Durkula as I indicated in my prior post, but still pretty bad.

He's working through his non-touch spells/effects. First his two will save (dominate hold person). He doesn't have a third will save option, so now he's using a high level fort save option (destruction). He likely doesn't have all that many of those before he's reduced to touch range spells, where he can start tapping will save again (harm, slay living, plane shift).

Agreed, though given how far back the other clerics are standing, Durkula should have enough room to hit Roy with area of effect spells without running any real risk of getting the other clerics in the blast zone. (He could for instance certainly safely hit Roy with a Flame Strike in the amount of space he has.) As such it may still be a while before he has to close to touch range.

[Codyage]

From the evidence at hand, assuming Durkon isn't just trying to extend the battle to give more time for the demigods, it seems like he just needs to turn into gas, and sit in there. I see no reason why he wouldn't want to turn into gas, he is still present in the room, and it forces Roy to just sit there and watch. It doesn't make a good story sure, but the fact we have seen this move on screen from another vampire, at least to get his bearings, it seems as if the character is acting rather foolish.

Now, to have someone in the story note this fact would make it rather a bit...unbelievable. If Durkon gets the upper hand and beats on Roy for a while, only for his over confidence to give Roy the edge that might make for a better story. But still, it is hard to gloss over the fact vampires can just turn to gas, and sit there.

[Olinser]

From the evidence at hand, assuming Durkon isn't just trying to extend the battle to give more time for the demigods, it seems like he just needs to turn into gas, and sit in there. I see no reason why he wouldn't want to turn into gas, he is still present in the room, and it forces Roy to just sit there and watch. It doesn't make a good story sure, but the fact we have seen this move on screen from another vampire, at least to get his bearings, it seems as if the character is acting rather foolish.

Now, to have someone in the story note this fact would make it rather a bit...unbelievable. If Durkon gets the upper hand and beats on Roy for a while, only for his over confidence to give Roy the edge that might make for a better story. But still, it is hard to gloss over the fact vampires can just turn to gas, and sit there.

We DON'T know that, just like we don't actually know whether Roy's feat will work on a cleric.

The only time we saw Malack turn into gas it was when he was at 1 HP, and then he moved a very short distance away (it looked like only 1 or 2 rounds of movement), and then reverted to humanoid form.

Durkula may only be able to turn into gas at extreme low HP, only for a very short time, and his uses may be limited.

If he can only turn into gas 1-3 times a day for just a couple rounds he's certainly not going to waste it when he's at full HP and in no danger. He's going to save it in case Roy gets a couple serious hits in and Durkula needs to reset the fight.

[SlashDash]

From the evidence at hand, assuming Durkon isn't just trying to extend the battle to give more time for the demigods, it seems like he just needs to turn into gas, and sit in there. I see no reason why he wouldn't want to turn into gas, he is still present in the room, and it forces Roy to just sit there and watch.

Except we don't know anything at all. The voting is based on the Summon Proxy spell which isn't an official spell, thus we don't know anything about its limitation. What if it requires you to stay in shape?
What if it requires concentration?
What if it prevents you from casting other spells at all?

We know absolutely nothing and any assumption other than stuff we've seen is simply a random guess. Which may be correct but may not.

[Tev]

From the evidence at hand, assuming Durkon isn't just trying to extend the battle to give more time for the demigods, it seems like he just needs to turn into gas, and sit in there. I see no reason why he wouldn't want to turn into gas, he is still present in the room, and it forces Roy to just sit there and watch. It doesn't make a good story sure, but the fact we have seen this move on screen from another vampire, at least to get his bearings, it seems as if the character is acting rather foolish.

Now, to have someone in the story note this fact would make it rather a bit...unbelievable. If Durkon gets the upper hand and beats on Roy for a while, only for his over confidence to give Roy the edge that might make for a better story. But still, it is hard to gloss over the fact vampires can just turn to gas, and sit there.

#1001 thread:


As an aside, gaseous form is just DR 10/magic, can't be grappled, can seep through cracks. If a vampire with a coffin, can't be permakilled. Armor doesn't count.

So if Durkula goes gaseous, Roy has a round of full power attacks against a low ac target with DR that his weapon beats. He'd do hundreds of points of damage.

Depends whether D can get away fast enough, but it seems like too big of a risk. Especially when he has no need for fast escape now, as Roy has trouble hitting him at the moment.

EDIT:


Its material armor (including natural armor) becomes worthless
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm

[Noodz]

After observing 1002, i came to a conclusion: even if the HPoH holds back on his high level slots, he can still melee with Roy:

Durkon's AC, assuming dex 10: full plate+3, large shield+3, item which grants +3 deflection bonus: 10+11(armor)+5(shield)+3(deflection)+6(natural) =~ 35

Roy's attack, assuming str 26: BAB+15, strenght+8, weapon+5, improved focus+2 =~ +30/+25/+20

Notice Roy's attack bonuses are enough to consistently hit Durkula, but he needs to hold back on power attack. And to me it seems he didn't held back, from the 8 swings depicted, only 2 resulted in wounds. So it's true Roy can dish out ~50 damage per swing if he dumps his full BAB into power attack (not counting the effects of the green glow), but then he is reduced to hitting only on crits.

So Roy will have to tone down his power attack, but at the cost of reduced damage (assuming Roy is smart and the above numbers are right, he will eventually settle for around 5 BAB for power attack, which works into ~30 damage per glowless hit). But then he must rely on the undisclosed power of the green glow, because vampires have 10/silver DR. And he can't rely on offing Durkon in a lucky crit, because vampires are immune to crits. And he needs to keep scoring hits, because vampires have fast healing 5. The chances of a Roy victory in a RAW duel are bleak.


My theory is that the HPoH feels safe enough on the melee that he will try to manipulate Roy into thinking Durkon betrayed him. In that way, even if Roy eventually defeats the HPoH, Roy may choose not to ressurect the dwarf that he believes to be a betrayer.

[theMycon]

Question- does Durkula lose the natural vampire DR/10 Silver (and magic) when he becomes gas? And does the Gaseous Form provoke an AoO as it slowly floats upward?

I mean, if the answer to the latter is "yes", the loss of 17+ AC* makes the former less important, and still less important than "Is Roy smart enough to figure out how to hit something 20' in the air?" But I'd still like to know.



Durkon's AC, assuming dex 10: full plate+3, large shield+3, item which grants +3 deflection bonus: 10+11(armor)+5(shield)+3(deflection)+6(natural) =~ 35

Roy's attack, assuming str 26: BAB+15, strenght+8, weapon+5, improved focus+2 =~ +30/+25/+20
I came up with the same minimum hit bonus with different assumptions: level 14 & +7 Str (both being the minimum possible here), but with an additional +2 from undead's bane on his greatsword. He could, conceivably, have a significantly higher bonus (there are a bajillion ways to get more stacking +'s to hit), but assuming "30-34" seems reasonable.

Durkula, there are too many unknowns. I've come up with everything from 27 to 38 based on various assumptions, and I really don't have a good reason to like any one more than any other. Roy might hit on a -7, or he might need to roll 8 or higher.
Minor note: We know Durkula has an amulet of natural armor, but there's no reason to assume an item of deflection OR no deflection.


*plate, shield, amulet of & Vamp's natural armor. Assumes plate/shield are nonmagical, and amulet is +1.

[Reddish Mage]

Except we don't know anything at all. The voting is based on the Summon Proxy spell which isn't an official spell, thus we don't know anything about its limitation. What if it requires you to stay in shape?
What if it requires concentration?
What if it prevents you from casting other spells at all?

We can assume based on the fact its called a "Summon" spell that it works like other summon spells, which do not require concentration.

If Durkula wanted to draw out the fight, wouldn't it be easy for him to make himself invulnerable through any of a number of means (misting, turning into a bat, spiderclimb up walls, any of a number of spells)

[Doctor_Cthulwho]

Except we don't know anything at all. The voting is based on the Summon Proxy spell which isn't an official spell, thus we don't know anything about its limitation. What if it requires you to stay in shape?
What if it requires concentration?
What if it prevents you from casting other spells at all?

We know absolutely nothing and any assumption other than stuff we've seen is simply a random guess. Which may be correct but may not.

I don't think summon proxy is relevant anymore. Most of the clerics present didn't need to cast it to vote, or for their votes to count. Durkula only had to in order to prove he was who he said he was.

Besides which - Hel has already officially voted. And she's still hanging around, and Durkula is casting other spells, making concentration checks and so forth. So summon proxy isn't affecting that. I suspect it works like most other summon spells, and isn't something Durkula needs to maintain.


We DON'T know that, just like we don't actually know whether Roy's feat will work on a cleric.

The only time we saw Malack turn into gas it was when he was at 1 HP, and then he moved a very short distance away (it looked like only 1 or 2 rounds of movement), and then reverted to humanoid form.

Durkula may only be able to turn into gas at extreme low HP, only for a very short time, and his uses may be limited.

If he can only turn into gas 1-3 times a day for just a couple rounds he's certainly not going to waste it when he's at full HP and in no danger. He's going to save it in case Roy gets a couple serious hits in and Durkula needs to reset the fight.

How do we know Malak was at exactly 1 HP?

I think Roy's feat vs the vampire template is a bit different, since one of those is an established thing that seems to have been followed pretty closely in most respects. Based on what we've seen there's no reason to believe Durkula can't assume gaseous form, based on the template.

But I agree - I don't think Durkula is going to waste it while he's full of health and spells. Though I've mused previously on whether he'd be able to do so to frustrate Roy if things go badly. Of course spiderwalk would probably achieve the same.

[Vrock_Summoner]

But I agree - I don't think Durkula is going to waste it while he's full of health and spells. Though I've mused previously on whether he'd be able to do so to frustrate Roy if things go badly. Of course spiderwalk would probably achieve the same.

Of course, if Roy still has the Ring of Jumping, Durkon attempting to Spider Climb/Walk could result in a hilarious callback to a certain point where Roy tried to jump really high to fight an undead spellcaster...

[Edhelras]

A vampire can be held at bay by strongly presenting a holy symbol.

I once discussed in a thread whether the change in appearance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?381098-Durkon-s-Durkola-s-holy-symbol) of Durkola's symbol had any significance. Maybe this will be relevant in this fight?
For instance - if that blackened symbol Durkola is wearing is still a symbol of Thor - i.e., a holy symbol - Roy might snatch it from him, and present it strongly to drive him from the room.
On the other hand - if it's now turned into an unholy symbol (of Hel), such a tactic wouldn't work.

Elsewise I agree that the internal Durkola-Durkon-struggle, or the Return of the Belkster, would be much more likely and cool solutions for this battle. What point is there in all that internal dialogue of Durkon's, if it's not to be used for anything? And the image of falling Belkar simply cries out "somebody rescue me", the only character who deserves dying while falling helpless into an abyss is Tarquin.

[Wereboar_It]

Fights are usually won via the Sword of Plot or by the spell Summon Plot I, however I dare say that Durkula is smart and should have know from the start that as soon as his vote were cast his disguise would drop and he'd have to fight Roy.

So he might hold some ace up his sleeve: that explains why despite the damage dealt the "inner spirit" appears to be very calm, to the point of mild amusement.

[Jelly d6]

A vampire can be held at bay by strongly presenting a holy symbol.

I once discussed in a thread whether the change in appearance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?381098-Durkon-s-Durkola-s-holy-symbol) of Durkola's symbol had any significance. Maybe this will be relevant in this fight?
For instance - if that blackened symbol Durkola is wearing is still a symbol of Thor - i.e., a holy symbol - Roy might snatch it from him, and present it strongly to drive him from the room.


Well, as clerics of different religions do have different holy symbols, of course the change has significance. Can't say much on significance specifically for this fight though. Every power-meta-gamer in Roy's situation would try to sunder Durkula's Unholy Symbol first. Pretty much clerics' spells (Destruction, for instance) rely on focus. But in Oots-verse such a tactic must definitely require ranks in Knowledge (religion).

Second, IIRC only clerics and paladins can present Symbols to drive off undead. It makes sense, since Roy's faith in Thor roughly equals his Knowledge (religion), why should that even work?

[Edhelras]

Second, IIRC only clerics and paladins can present Symbols to drive off undead. It makes sense, since Roy's faith in Thor roughly equals his Knowledge (religion), why should that even work?

In the SRD, it doesn't mention that the character presenting the symbol must be undead. Truly, only Clr and Pal can turn undead, but the repulsion caused by holy symbols seems to be something else than turning. There are no mechanics or rolls involved.
Nor is there any mentioning of the amount of garlic actually necessary to repel the vamp.
I believe that in folklore, even "ordinary people" like a brave youngster may grap a cross and lift it up to keep the vampire at bay, preventing it from sucking the blood from the horrified maiden of his love. I agree that one might need Knowledge:religion to know this, however.

A strange thing Elan hasn't talked about this already, with all that Bardic Lore of his.

[Jelly d6]

In the SRD, it doesn't mention that the character presenting the symbol must be undead. Truly, only Clr and Pal can turn undead, but the repulsion caused by holy symbols seems to be something else than turning. There are no mechanics or rolls involved.
Nor is there any mentioning of the amount of garlic actually necessary to repel the vamp.
I believe that in folklore, even "ordinary people" like a brave youngster may grap a cross and lift it up to keep the vampire at bay, preventing it from sucking the blood from the horrified maiden of his love. I agree that one might need Knowledge:religion to know this, however.

A strange thing Elan hasn't talked about this already, with all that Bardic Lore of his.

I still think it isn't merely a matter of Knowledge ranks but also a matter of faith. Our folklore reflects the fact that there was only one monotheistic religion around, so surely a cross was a very special symbol even for ordinary youngster.

Which is not a case in Oots. Or 3.5 in general. Even from a mechanical perspective, the Symbol itself doesn't posess any supernatural power. Its role is different: to focus the energy of its user. And not a random user but a person who is well devoted to the religion this Symbol represents. So yeah, a pious person might be able to use a Symbol that way even without a level in appropriate classes. But current situation is hardly the case.

Back to the broader topic, this fight most likely won't be won by tricky meta catches but by necessities of the plot, as folks have already mentioned. Which means whatever possibilities Roy had, he will be curb-stomped down to near zero. Because, first, it'll make a perfect moment for Belkar or/and now-enslaved Durkon to emerge. Second, it'll be a very good character growth situation. Because, you know, you cannot simply proclaim yourself Supreme Commander of the World and singlehandedly decide that this world deserves to live for utterly selfish reasons. You have to suffer for your heroic aspirations. That's the whole point of heroism. As one young but undoubtedly wise lady said, life is pain :smallwink:

[Kareasint]

I don't think summon proxy is relevant anymore. Most of the clerics present didn't need to cast it to vote, or for their votes to count. Durkula only had to in order to prove he was who he said he was.

Besides which - Hel has already officially voted. And she's still hanging around, and Durkula is casting other spells, making concentration checks and so forth. So summon proxy isn't affecting that. I suspect it works like most other summon spells, and isn't something Durkula needs to maintain.



How do we know Malak was at exactly 1 HP?

I think Roy's feat vs the vampire template is a bit different, since one of those is an established thing that seems to have been followed pretty closely in most respects. Based on what we've seen there's no reason to believe Durkula can't assume gaseous form, based on the template.

But I agree - I don't think Durkula is going to waste it while he's full of health and spells. Though I've mused previously on whether he'd be able to do so to frustrate Roy if things go badly. Of course spiderwalk would probably achieve the same.

HPoH can go gaseous at will but it takes a standard action. It also nullifies his armor and shield bonuses. The vampire would essentially lower its defenses in front of someone that can power attack. Shifting to another form, such as a bat or wolf, also takes a standard action standing right next to a high level fighter. Spider Climb to get out of reach is possible and may be the best course of action to avoid further combat. But, in order to do that, HPoH would have to have both hands free (drop hammer and shield - move action). HPoH's best option is to remain in combat and continue to target Roy with damage type spells.

Roy's chances of pulling this out increase as the battle continues. He may be saving the spell disruption feat for when HPoH attempts to heal. HPoH has a large problem in that most of his spells target two of Roy's stronger saves (Fort and Will). This will be a battle of attrition with Dorkon's spirit and Belkar acting as wild cards.

[Edhelras]

HPoH can go gaseous at will but it takes a standard action. It also nullifies his armor and shield bonuses. The vampire would essentially lower its defenses in front of someone that can power attack. Shifting to another form, such as a bat or wolf, also takes a standard action standing right next to a high level fighter. Spider Climb to get out of reach is possible and may be the best course of action to avoid further combat. But, in order to do that, HPoH would have to have both hands free (drop hammer and shield - move action). HPoH's best option is to remain in combat and continue to target Roy with damage type spells.


Just to clarify - is the vampire in gaseous form incorporeal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#incorporeal), or merely insubstantial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm)? It seems to me that the gaseous form is somewhat more corporeal than true incorporeality? For instance, the gaseous form has only damage reduction 10/magic, whereas the incorporeal form is immune to damage except magic.

Meaning that the gaseous form is, as you say, a quite vulnerable one. However, if Durkola has any Deflection protection (like Shield of Faith) active, it would still work in gaseous form. On the other hand, his AC would be dependent on his DEX, which we might expect to be pretty low.

[Shining Wrath]

From the evidence at hand, assuming Durkon isn't just trying to extend the battle to give more time for the demigods, it seems like he just needs to turn into gas, and sit in there. I see no reason why he wouldn't want to turn into gas, he is still present in the room, and it forces Roy to just sit there and watch. It doesn't make a good story sure, but the fact we have seen this move on screen from another vampire, at least to get his bearings, it seems as if the character is acting rather foolish.

Now, to have someone in the story note this fact would make it rather a bit...unbelievable. If Durkon gets the upper hand and beats on Roy for a while, only for his over confidence to give Roy the edge that might make for a better story. But still, it is hard to gloss over the fact vampires can just turn to gas, and sit there.

Turning into gas might not be his best plan. From SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm):


As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.

And


The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent. Its material armor (including natural armor) becomes worthless, though its size, Dexterity, deflection bonuses, and armor bonuses from force effects still apply. The subject gains damage reduction 10/magic and becomes immune to poison and critical hits. It can’t attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form. (This does not rule out the use of certain spells that the subject may have prepared using the feats Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials.) The subject also loses supernatural abilities while in gaseous form. If it has a touch spell ready to use, that spell is discharged harmlessly when the gaseous form spell takes effect.

A gaseous creature can’t run, but it can fly at a speed of 10 feet (maneuverability perfect). It can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, with all it was wearing or holding in its hands, as long as the spell persists. The creature is subject to the effects of wind, and it can’t enter water or other liquid. It also can’t manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with its gaseous form. Continuously active items remain active, though in some cases their effects may be moot.

So changing to gaseous form gives HPoH an AC of probably 10 - no Dex bonus, no deflection bonus or force shields we know of. DR of 10/magic, I think we're pretty confident Roy's +5 starmetal sword is in fact magic :smallsmile: No spell casting ability in that form. So HPoH becomes a helpless target with a fly speed of 20 against a fighter who has enough knowledge of architecture and engineering to convert parts of the building into ramps and ledges allowing him to leap pretty high into the air - and he may (or may not) have the ring of jumping. If HPoH takes gaseous form he is at zero hit points within two rounds unless he flies straight up, at which point it probably takes Roy 2 rounds to figure out how to reach him anyway.

[Zmeoaice]

Well Durkula is using melee now and doesn't have his staff.

[BaronOfHell]

About Durkon trying to escape via Spider Climb or something similar. From a story point perspective, it'd look horrible inefficient if Roy, who's, and so far continues to be, keeping up with Durkon and continues to knock him over, can't manage to stop someone who stops fighting right in front of him to climb up walls or something similar. To me it'd look like a free close range attack and a free knock down.

[King of Nowhere]

so, seems like durkula has now resorted to using touch attacks to level drain roy. could be effective. since his spells aren't working, and roy iisn't dealing much damage because of high AC, draining him of two levels per round may as well be the best strategy. It has the advantage of reliability: it only requires a touch attack, no saving throw or anything.

[Zancloufer]

so, seems like durkula has now resorted to using touch attacks to level drain roy. could be effective. since his spells aren't working, and roy iisn't dealing much damage because of high AC, draining him of two levels per round may as well be the best strategy. It has the advantage of reliability: it only requires a touch attack, no saving throw or anything.

While Level Drain is by far his most effective strategy (Hurts more than the staff and doesn't allow AoOs), it's not as reliable as you make it seem. Durkula needs to succeed on a SLAM ATTACK not a TOUCH ATTACK to level drain. He has a 15-17 to hit depending on his strength and Roy (with 13+ Dex and at least +1 Full Plate) would be packing 20+ AC. With a Ring of protection and better armour enchantment he could have up to 26 no problem. So Durkula could have as little as a 40% chance to hit, and as much as a 95% chance if for some reason Roy dumped every possible source of AC (13 Dex, no ring, +1 Breast plate).

[Olinser]

While Level Drain is by far his most effective strategy (Hurts more than the staff and doesn't allow AoOs), it's not as reliable as you make it seem. Durkula needs to succeed on a SLAM ATTACK not a TOUCH ATTACK to level drain. He has a 15-17 to hit depending on his strength and Roy (with 13+ Dex and at least +1 Full Plate) would be packing 20+ AC. With a Ring of protection and better armour enchantment he could have up to 26 no problem. So Durkula could have as little as a 40% chance to hit, and as much as a 95% chance if for some reason Roy dumped every possible source of AC (13 Dex, no ring, +1 Breast plate).

15-17? Try again.

BAB for a level 16 cleric is 12. As Cleric of Thor, who wants his worshippers to stand ready to smack evil the face with a hammer, Durkon was rocking at least a 14-15 STR. Add +6 STR on top of that and you're looking at +5 naturally.

So he's already rocking at least 17 BASE for his Slam attack (maybe 18, if Durkon had 16 base strength, which is not that unlikely).

He's already hitting Roy a reasonable amount of the time at 17. Pile on just a couple buffs and he's nearly guaranteed.

Even a basic buff spell like Divine Power is going to give him another +7 (+4 assuming level 16, another +3 from extra STR) for a 24. Now he's already in around 70-80% chance to hit Roy even with +2-3 Full Plate, 13 Dex and a ring.

Worst case Durkula is rocking Divine Power (+7), Divine Favor (+5), Bless(+1), Guidance (+1), Aid (+1), Bull's Strength (+2 from STR), Prayer (+1), for a total of a possible +18 from buffs.

Even with just the 2 most efficient buffs (Divine Power, Divine Favor), he's rocking a 29 BAB. That's already basically natural 1 misses only.

AND, if he does have Divine Power, Durkula is now sitting on somewhere around 26+ STR (not unlikely 28+). Even with his belt, Roy is going to be lower by a decent margin. He may not be able to break a Grapple if Durkon goes that route.

Either way, Roy could be toast without the Belkster making a timely appearance.

[Aasimar]

15-17? Try again.

BAB for a level 16 cleric is 12. As Cleric of Thor, who wants his worshippers to stand ready to smack evil the face with a hammer, Durkon was rocking at least a 14-15 STR. Add +6 STR on top of that and you're looking at +5 naturally.

So he's already rocking at least 17 BASE for his Slam attack (maybe 18, if Durkon had 16 base strength, which is not that unlikely).

He's already hitting Roy a reasonable amount of the time at 17. Pile on just a couple buffs and he's nearly guaranteed.

Even a basic buff spell like Divine Power is going to give him another +7 (+4 assuming level 16, another +3 from extra STR) for a 24. Now he's already in around 70-80% chance to hit Roy even with +2-3 Full Plate, 13 Dex and a ring.

Worst case Durkula is rocking Divine Power (+7), Divine Favor (+5), Bless(+1), Guidance (+1), Aid (+1), Bull's Strength (+2 from STR), Prayer (+1), for a total of a possible +18 from buffs.

Even with just the 2 most efficient buffs (Divine Power, Divine Favor), he's rocking a 29 BAB. That's already basically natural 1 misses only.

AND, if he does have Divine Power, Durkula is now sitting on somewhere around 26+ STR (not unlikely 28+). Even with his belt, Roy is going to be lower by a decent margin. He may not be able to break a Grapple if Durkon goes that route.

Either way, Roy could be toast without the Belkster making a timely appearance.

We don't have any reason to assume Durkon has any of those buffs up pre-fight. It might make sense from a gamers point of view to have them, but there's no reason for us to pre-suppose that he does.

We have not seen him cast them.

Until shown otherwise, I'm assuming Durkon is fighting off his base attack and strength alone.

I'm also going to have to disagree wildly that Durkon having had strength 16 beforehand is anything but 'highly unlikely'. The order does not in general have super-high stats and we have never been led to believe Durkon is particularly strong...he has a weapon, he's shown to be 'competent' in melee, but no more than that.

I'd guess 13-14, but I think 10-12 is much more likely than 15-16.

I'm also skeptical that he's higher than level 13-14. We've seen him cast many level 7 spells, but no level 8 spells.

He gets level 7 spells at level 13, and while I think it may be plausible that he's leveled since then, I'm almost positive he hasn't leveled 3 times since then.

If he's a level 13 cleric, who started with strength 13 and got +6 from vampirism, he's attacking at +13, +15 if he's a level 14 cleric who started with 14 str. before vampirism.

So yeah, this is a very interesting fight, Durkon has the edge, but Roy is definitely a threat.

[Wereboar_It]

There is only one reason Durkula switched from staff/spell to natural attack: temporary level drain which means no more Spellsplitting and thus no more Roy.

Unless Roy has dealt a SIGNIFICANT amount of damage in the previous rounds, he's going to be in real trouble.

[King of Nowhere]

We don't have any reason to assume Durkon has any of those buffs up pre-fight. It might make sense from a gamers point of view to have them, but there's no reason for us to pre-suppose that he does.


In fact, we have every reason to believe durkon does not have those spells active. most of those only last one round per level, so there's no way he could have cast them in advance. and once the fight is already started, his first attempt was to take roy with spells. Having seen that roy has saving throws too high, durkula gave up on those, at least for the time, and went for level drain. nowhere did he have the time to cast buff spells. and right now, if he tried, they'd be most likely be disrupted.
On the other hand, I think durkon was likely to have passable strength, because he made a lot of melee, which i don't see him doing if he could not pack some damage.

[Seward]

Level drain does not deprive Roy of Spellsplitting. It does, however, lower his attacks and saves by -2, which could be very serious if he gets hit a second time, as he's already having trouble hitting and Durkon has spammable dominates.

I did a quick napkin calculation of Roy's ac based on wealth by level and Durkon's chances of hitting him in the discussion thread for this comic. With no buffs and no defensive feats on Roy, Durkon's probably at 35-40% chance to hit - but Durkon is a cleric so he probably has a few buffs running and Roy likely has a couple defensive feats - Durkon's buffs likely add more than Roy's feats (barring Roy going crazy and fighting with lots of combat expertise and thus guaranteeing he misses every swing) so my guesstimate is that Durkon's got a 50/50 chance of hitting him again.

That's too damn high. Roy, stop tripping Durkon if you aren't going to follow up with more attacks at his reduced AC or take the AOO when he stands up. Just hit the stupid git. You need to win in the next couple of rounds or you're likely going to end up as a sock-puppet for Durkula.

[Wereboar_It]

Level drain does not deprive Roy of Spellsplitting. It does, however, lower his attacks and saves by -2, which could be very serious if he gets hit a second time, as he's already having trouble hitting and Durkon has spammable dominates.


doesn't the (temporary) loss of levels also imply you lose the feat(s) you gained at those levels? if so, Spellsplitting should be the first to go.

Furthermore: I recall that resisting a Dominate attempt made you immune for the rest of the day, am I wrong?

[Seward]

No, negative levels do not affect feats in 3rd/3.5 edition (in 1st edition you really lost the levels, it was different).

Negative levels do drain spells (or high level spell slots for sorcerer-types) out of your head, but it's like you cast them, not like you lost the ability to cast them. Roy's concerns are far more with the -2 to all attacks, -2 to all saves, -10hp and +10 temp hp passed over to Durkula.

Regarding Dominate - no. While some abilities are worded that way "save and be unaffected again for 24 hr" and it is fairly common among undead abiliites, the Vampire dominate has no such "save once and good for 24 hours" restriction. It is more that if the dude saved and is carving you into cutlets you try something else next round that you assume will work better. Unfortunately for Roy, a couple hits from a vampire radically change his odds of resisting a dominate, so HPOH might go to that well again if he thinks Roy is weakened enough by level drain.

Hence the contention all along that Roy needs to win quickly if he's going to win. It's just that he CAN win quickly, if he just lands a few more blows. He's done some damage already and HPOH has only 3-4 solid hits worth of hitpoints, although by now one of Roy's hits is likely mostly undone by fast healing. This fight is still very dangerous to both of them because the die rolls matter - Roy gets hot, he kills HPOH in one full-attack. Roy gets cold and gives Durkon the chance to level drain and/or dominate him some more and it's over just as fast the other way.

[Zancloufer]

15-17? Try again.

BAB for a level 16 cleric is 12. As Cleric of Thor, who wants his worshippers to stand ready to smack evil the face with a hammer, Durkon was rocking at least a 14-15 STR. Add +6 STR on top of that and you're looking at +5 naturally.

So he's already rocking at least 17 BASE for his Slam attack (maybe 18, if Durkon had 16 base strength, which is not that unlikely).

He's already hitting Roy a reasonable amount of the time at 17. Pile on just a couple buffs and he's nearly guaranteed.

Even a basic buff spell like Divine Power is going to give him another +7 (+4 assuming level 16, another +3 from extra STR) for a 24. Now he's already in around 70-80% chance to hit Roy even with +2-3 Full Plate, 13 Dex and a ring.

Worst case Durkula is rocking Divine Power (+7), Divine Favor (+5), Bless(+1), Guidance (+1), Aid (+1), Bull's Strength (+2 from STR), Prayer (+1), for a total of a possible +18 from buffs.

Even with just the 2 most efficient buffs (Divine Power, Divine Favor), he's rocking a 29 BAB. That's already basically natural 1 misses only.

AND, if he does have Divine Power, Durkula is now sitting on somewhere around 26+ STR (not unlikely 28+). Even with his belt, Roy is going to be lower by a decent margin. He may not be able to break a Grapple if Durkon goes that route.

Either way, Roy could be toast without the Belkster making a timely appearance.

First : http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392439-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIII-Comic-As-Written-not-Comic-As-Intended

Durkula is most likely level 14 with 20-25 strength based off what's been figured out in the comic so far. +15-17 to hit with his slam.

Second all of those buffs except Bulls Strength have durations of about rounds per level, and you don't go around with buffs of such a short duration on 24/7. He hasn't had time to buff so far so why would he have spells that have a duration of >3 minutes already on him at this point?

[theMycon]

Since it still might become relevant-

Question- does Durkula lose the natural vampire DR/10 Silver (and magic) when he becomes gas? And does the Gaseous Form provoke an AoO as it slowly floats upward?

I mean, the answer is less important than "Is Roy smart enough to figure out how to hit something 20' in the air?" But I'd still like to know.

[Shining Wrath]

Since it still might become relevant-

Gaseous Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm):


The subject and all its gear become insubstantial, misty, and translucent. Its material armor (including natural armor) becomes worthless, though its size, Dexterity, deflection bonuses, and armor bonuses from force effects still apply. The subject gains damage reduction 10/magic and becomes immune to poison and critical hits. It can’t attack or cast spells with verbal, somatic, material, or focus components while in gaseous form. (This does not rule out the use of certain spells that the subject may have prepared using the feats Silent Spell, Still Spell, and Eschew Materials.) The subject also loses supernatural abilities while in gaseous form. If it has a touch spell ready to use, that spell is discharged harmlessly when the gaseous form spell takes effect.

A gaseous creature can’t run, but it can fly at a speed of 10 feet (maneuverability perfect). It can pass through small holes or narrow openings, even mere cracks, with all it was wearing or holding in its hands, as long as the spell persists. The creature is subject to the effects of wind, and it can’t enter water or other liquid. It also can’t manipulate objects or activate items, even those carried along with its gaseous form. Continuously active items remain active, though in some cases their effects may be moot.

The vampire version gets fly speed of 20' but is otherwise the same. Roy's sword being magical will overcome the DR, and we have no reason to believe Durkon has Dexterity or force Armor bonuses, although a Ring of Protection may be in the mix somewhere (+1 or +2). Gaseous Form HPoH, therefore, is going to be AC 12 or less with no DR while Roy full attacks. Ruling out critical hits is the only useful part of going gassy for HPoH.

[theMycon]

Thank you, but that doesn't quite answer my questions.

The first one issue I have is here.

The subject gains damage reduction 10/magic
A vampire has DR 10/magic and silver.

If he gains DR 10/magic (which he already has), does he lose the vampiric DR 10/silver? The conversations here seem to imply "yes", but my instinct here says "absolutely not." Hence why I am flummoxed.

The second question- "Does he provoke an AoO as his gas floats away".
I assume "yes" because I see no reason why not, but it's been a while since I've played 3.5 and there are fiddly rules for everything.

[Jasdoif]

A vampire has DR 10/magic and silver.

If he gains DR 10/magic (which he already has), does he lose the vampiric DR 10/silver? The conversations here seem to imply "yes", but my instinct here says "absolutely not." Hence why I am flummoxed.The damage reduction in the vampire stat block is marked "(Su)", meaning it's a supernatural ability; and as mentioned in Shining Wrath's quote of the text of gaseous form, all supernatural abilities are lost in gaseous form. So that damage reduction doesn't apply while in gaseous form, but he'd gain the DR 10/magic referenced from gaseous form normally.


The second question- "Does he provoke an AoO as his gas floats away".
I assume "yes" because I see no reason why not, but it's been a while since I've played 3.5 and there are fiddly rules for everything.I don't see why it wouldn't, though he could use the withdraw action or take a 5-foot step to avoid an attack of opportunity as usual for movement.

[theMycon]

Much obliged, Sir.

[Olinser]

First : http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392439-Class-and-Level-Geekery-XIII-Comic-As-Written-not-Comic-As-Intended

Durkula is most likely level 14 with 20-25 strength based off what's been figured out in the comic so far. +15-17 to hit with his slam.

Second all of those buffs except Bulls Strength have durations of about rounds per level, and you don't go around with buffs of such a short duration on 24/7. He hasn't had time to buff so far so why would he have spells that have a duration of >3 minutes already on him at this point?

You're right, he should totally be saving his low level spells for after the world ends. You know, when he'll get so much use out of them.

If he DIDN'T buff before stepping into the open he's an outright moron. His plan will explicitly result in the destruction of the world in just a few minutes and he knew Roy was going to try to stop him. Just a couple minutes is more than enough to ensure the destruction of the world.

[King of Nowhere]

You're right, he should totally be saving his low level spells for after the world ends. You know, when he'll get so much use out of them.

If he DIDN'T buff before stepping into the open he's an outright moron. His plan will explicitly result in the destruction of the world in just a few minutes and he knew Roy was going to try to stop him. Just a couple minutes is more than enough to ensure the destruction of the world.

yeah, but when, exactly, did he buff himself?
he could not cast while in the circle, i'm prettyy sure casting buff spells could be taken as a sign that you're planning to attack someone. at the least, you'd be asked to dismiss them or be considered hostile. and if he cast them before entering the circle, they are already expired. i just don''t see any time in the last minute and a half (make it three, he has extended spell after all) when he could have atually cast those spells on himself.

[Seward]

I don't see why it wouldn't, though he could use the withdraw action or take a 5-foot step to avoid an attack of opportunity as usual for movement.

Gas form is a standard action. If he doesn't want to eat Roy's full attack with only about 12 AC (which will kill him outright, a power attacking fighter allowed to use his full power attack can easily overcome Durkon's max hp) then he needs to move more than 5'. Ideally he moves straight up, but with only 20' of movement he only goes 10' distance. That's in reach of Roy's full attack, so he eats an AOO and also takes a full attack. Bad.

Best option for Gas form is that he move out off the balcony 20' away. That should stymie Roy and he only has to eat one AOO (and also that AOO isn't at full power attack, since Roy doesn't get the chance to increase his power attack before he goes).

So now that they're up on the balcony, gas form and drift off the balcony is a decent tactic in spite of the hideous vulnerability and utter lack of offensive or defensive abilities and spellcasting it imposes.

[Zmeoaice]

What bonuses does Durkula have in giant form?

[DrMartin]

What bonuses does Durkula have in giant form?

well, we know that he doesn't move faster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html)

[rodneyAnonymous]

What bonuses does Durkula have in giant form?

+4 STR, +2 CON, +2 AC, DR 6/good, various benefits and drawbacks of being a larger size category (longer reach, better at grappling, easier to hit...) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm)

[JessmanCA]

I doubt the clerics are going to step in. But what if the GODS step in? This could get really epic, really fast, starting a war between the gods themselves.

[Kantaki]

I doubt the clerics are going to step in. But what if the GODS step in? This could get really epic, really fast, starting a war between the gods themselves.

Please not, one Snarl is more than enough. There is a reason the gods don't meet in person for important decisions and use proxies instead.

You call it epic, I call it a unnecessary risk for the gods and their creations. I mean the last time the gods fought the newly created world and a entire pantheon were undone.

Considering this risk it is doubtful the gods will intervene in this fight.

[King of Nowhere]

+4 STR, +2 CON, +2 AC, DR 6/good, various benefits and drawbacks of being a larger size category (longer reach, better at grappling, easier to hit...) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm)

that's according to rules as written, but in oots it appears to do more than that. durkon has always been able to deal some sort of splash damage, crushing multiple enemies with one single blow of his hammer. i think that spell in the ootsverse is more powerful than it would be otherwise.

[Jelly d6]

that's according to rules as written, but in oots it appears to do more than that. durkon has always been able to deal some sort of splash damage, crushing multiple enemies with one single blow of his hammer. i think that spell in the ootsverse is more powerful than it would be otherwise.


All equipment you wear or carry is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee and projectile weapons deal more damage. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm)

Specifically, warhammer's damage dice would increase from 1d8 to 2d6. Whether or not this gain is significant depends on circumstances.

Durkon' slam attack got lesser upgrade, from 1d6 to 1d8. Still, hit point damage is not the most dangerous part of vampire slam.

[zimmerwald1915]

that's according to rules as written, but in oots it appears to do more than that. durkon has always been able to deal some sort of splash damage, crushing multiple enemies with one single blow of his hammer. i think that spell in the ootsverse is more powerful than it would be otherwise.
Durkon would retain his multiple attacks per round while enlarged, but drawing him making them all separately, while enlarged, would make him look silly rather than badass. So they get modeled as Durkon crushing several nearby enemies (when they're available) in a single blow.

[Snails]

Durkon would retain his multiple attacks per round while enlarged, but drawing him making them all separately, while enlarged, would make him look silly rather than badass. So they get modeled as Durkon crushing several nearby enemies (when they're available) in a single blow.

I think you are correct. The art associated with both Durkon's and Belkar's attacks do not make exact sense with respect to the rules, even if the results are within a minor handwave of seeming correct.

[Tarqiup Inua]

As for the coffin... I presume the coffin is on the ship, which means Durkula cannot afford dying in combat.

It's on a mountaintop and there might be very strong wind outside in such altitude - hardly a way to get to a ship in two hours when in gaseous form.