Minor Conjuration

[Corey]

The Level 2 ability for Conjuration Wizards seems like another one of those that is heavily dependent on GM rulings. That makes me wonder about things like:


You can only conjure something in a form that you've seen before. So can you conjure an accurate copy of a specific key that you've seen?
You can't conjure something more than 3 ft. long on a side. How about a coiled rope or a collapsible pole?

[georgie_leech]

For the former, probably with a difficult INT or similar check if they studied the key in detail, otherwise you'd get a generic key (which thus wouldn't have much use). For the former, I'd frown at you for trying to argue that you get more than three feet of rope because it happens to be spooled up at the moment. Like this: :smallannoyed:

[NNescio]

The Level 2 ability for Conjuration Wizards seems like another one of those that is heavily dependent on GM rulings. That makes me wonder about things like:


You can only conjure something in a form that you've seen before. So can you conjure an accurate copy of a specific key that you've seen?
You can't conjure something more than 3 ft. long on a side. How about a coiled rope or a collapsible pole?


If I were the DM, I rule:


...So can you conjure an accurate copy of a specific key that you've seen?

No, the teeth of the keys must be constructed to be very precise in both shape and size, otherwise they won't fit the lock and turn the tumbler. If you have multiple keys of the same model from the same manufacturer for different doors I don't think you can tell them apart from one another unless you're comparing them side-to-side.

I don't think a player can convince me to let him have an INT check to remember the exact shape and size either. Sounds impossible, unless you have photographic memory.

...which Keen Mind so conveniently provides, in which case I would rule that yes, the player totally can conjure an accurate replica of a key he has just seen, and it would open the lock exactly as if it were the original key.

Alternatively, I might allow a player without Keen Mind to reconstruct the key with an INT check if he had examined the key in detail for some time, lowering the DC further (or giving him advantage) if he writes down the measurements somewhere. If he had the foresight (and opportunity) to make a wax impression of the key (like in a mold), then I might let him automatically succeed, as though as he has Keen Mind.


You can't conjure something more than 3 ft. long on a side. How about a coiled rope or a collapsible pole?

It doesn't specify that the object has to be in a specific configuration, so yes, totally.

[SharkForce]

The Level 2 ability for Conjuration Wizards seems like another one of those that is heavily dependent on GM rulings. That makes me wonder about things like:


You can only conjure something in a form that you've seen before. So can you conjure an accurate copy of a specific key that you've seen?
You can't conjure something more than 3 ft. long on a side. How about a coiled rope or a collapsible pole?


i'd allow both of those things, but you'd need something like the keen mind feat and a chance to actually handle the key and see it from all sides (alternately, seeing it multiple times would eventually add up to being often enough as well).

[Corey]

Thanks! That makes sense -- even the disagreements. :smallbiggrin:

Next ones:

Can you conjure food, water or booze?
How about a healing kit?
How about fuel for a fire?

[NNescio]

Thanks! That makes sense -- even the disagreements. :smallbiggrin:

Next ones:

Can you conjure food, water or booze?
How about a healing kit?
How about fuel for a fire?


1) Sure, you can. But the moment you eat them they take acid damage and go poof. Or take piercing damage and go poof, in the case of food.

Makes for a hell of a way for the Conjurer to outdrink anyone at the bar table though.

2) This is harder to say, as the Healer's Kit is one of those "items with multiple items in it" things. I could say no by saying you can't conjure multiple objects, even if they are surrounded in a pouch. Otherwise you can conjure bags of daggers.

I don't see free Healer's Kits as being too unbalanced though (even with the Healer feat). It just can potentially set a bad precedent.

3) You can, but the moment you add it to the fire it takes fire damage and goes poof.

In general, I am quite leery of letting the conjurer use conjured consumables, as it can effectively be free money, as well as potentially opening the way to conjuring spell components for free.

[rollingForInit]

Can you conjure food, water or booze?


Those aren't objects. So I would say, no. I might allow something like an ice cube, maybe. But then, the duration is short so I'd say it wouldn't be able to sustain you, because whatever you consume would magically disappear. A good reference here is the first level spell "Create Water" which does provide drinkable water. Conjuring food is a 3rd level spell. A cantrip shouldn't be more powerful than these.




How about a healing kit?


A healing kit isn't one object, it's many object. I'd allow you conjure a scalpel (that breaks easily, since it breaks if it takes damage), a scissor, a needle, a thread, etc. But not a healing kit.



How about fuel for a fire?


No. You could conjure a piece of wood, but as soon as it starts burning, it takes damage, and so the spell will end and the piece of wood immediately disappears.

[georgie_leech]

Can you conjure food, water or booze?

Yes, but you couldn't use it to stave off the effects of dehydration or starvation long term because it would wear off after an hour, since that's when whatever you conjured up vanishes.


How about a healing kit?

Same as above. Note that wounds or the like suddenly becoming unbandaged and untreated may of may not be a problem, depending on how desperately you needed that kit in the first place.


How about fuel for a fire?

If anything that's better than actual fuel, pollutant-free after an hour! :smallbiggrin: In all seriousness, I'd probably allow this for a campfire or similar, even though it's stretching RAW quite a bit, but I'd be watchful for this being used in place of torches, lamp oil, or the like.

[CNagy]

As written, you get a copy of an object that you've seen; so you don't get a key, you get the key that you've seen and are trying to conjure. Coupling this ability with Keen Mind increases the range of things you can accurately conjure to anything you've glanced at in the previous month. That's just how it is written.

And I would err on the side of being more permissive with the feature than less--this is not some ribbon ability. It's not fluff, it is a utility ability that is supposed to be roughly on par with the Arcane Ward, Portent, Hypnotic Gaze, Sculpt Spell, Improved Minor Illusion, Grim Harvest, and Minor Alchemy arcane tradition features.

[Strill]

No, the teeth of the keys must be constructed to be very precise in both shape and size, otherwise they won't fit the lock and turn the tumbler. If you have multiple keys of the same model from the same manufacturer for different doors I don't think you can tell them apart from one another unless you're comparing them side-to-side.

Modern keys, yes. Medieval keys (https://www.flickr.com/photos/corsetkitten/3660573756), no. Besides, worst-case scenario you can make a trace of the key's outline and use that to conjure a key of the right shape.

Although, you don't need Minor Conjuration for that, just Prestidigitation.

[rollingForInit]

Regarding keys, I'd probably allow it, if it were a generic key.

I wouldn't allow it if it were a specialised key, say for a high security safe some rich noble had built. Might allow it for someone who had taken the Keen Mind feat, depending on the complexity of it all.

[PoeticDwarf]

About the key, I'd say a DC 20 inteligence (memory) check, not that memory is a skill.

[ImSAMazing]

About the key, I'd say a DC 20 inteligence (memory) check, not that memory is a skill.

Why? If you studied the key well, for a minute or 2, looking at all the sides, recording its weight, I'd say you can copy it. It doesn't say in the feature that it requires such a high DC for a lvl 2 PC(who has at most +3 int if pointbuy or max +5 if really lucky and 4d6b3), I think such a high DC is unappropiate.

[SharkForce]

Why? If you studied the key well, for a minute or 2, looking at all the sides, recording its weight, I'd say you can copy it. It doesn't say in the feature that it requires such a high DC for a lvl 2 PC(who has at most +3 int if pointbuy or max +5 if really lucky and 4d6b3), I think such a high DC is unappropiate.

mostly because in the case of a key, fine detail is far more important than usual. if you remember the ceramic jug at the tavern as having the image sculpted into it backwards, the jug still works fine; it will still hold water, beer, ale, pure distilled alcohol, acid (potentially for only a short time), etc, the pouring spout will generally work pretty much the same whether it's 25.9 mm long or 26.1 mm long, the handle will generally still fit a human hand even if it is a bit too small, etc. generally speaking, you can conjure just about any jug and it will perform as a jug pretty much as well as any other jug.

in contrast, keys (or rather, locks) are designed to be much more sensitive to those minor details. having written measurements that you can reference(or carefully memorized previously) could certainly help a great deal (provided you have a good mental image for what those measurements mean; it would be pretty useless to me, I'm terrible at estimating measurements). but a few millimeters off might make a big difference (it also might not; I don't think they were manufacturing keys to 5/1000th of an inch tolerance back in the day, and I doubt they are in toril or oerth either). point being, if you've remembered the key as being slightly different from how it is (or if you've only seen half of the key), you're not going to duplicate it precisely, and there's a chance you won't have duplicated it precisely enough to work. you'd still get a key, and it would look more or less like the original. it just might not quite fit into the lock exactly the way you wanted it to.

[rollingForInit]

Why? If you studied the key well, for a minute or 2, looking at all the sides, recording its weight, I'd say you can copy it. It doesn't say in the feature that it requires such a high DC for a lvl 2 PC(who has at most +3 int if pointbuy or max +5 if really lucky and 4d6b3), I think such a high DC is unappropiate.

I think the issue is that the feature doesn't say that you make an exact copy, just that the object has the form of something you've seen, which can be interpreted as meaning a general shape, not necessarily specific enough to make a duplicate of a key that would work. If the key is slightly more complex, an Intelligence Check seems appropriate.

[Mr Adventurer]

Apart from nefarious purposes, that key thing could be a cool security measure: have a complex lock and key created for your vault, learn it, then destroy the key - you can Conjure it when you need to but otherwise no key exists!

[georgie_leech]

Apart from nefarious purposes, that key thing could be a cool security measure: have a complex lock and key created for your vault, learn it, then destroy the key - you can Conjure it when you need to but otherwise no key exists!

I'm totally stealing that for my next campaign :smallbiggrin:

[Vogonjeltz]

Modern keys, yes. Medieval keys, no. Besides, worst-case scenario you can make a trace of the key's outline and use that to conjure a key of the right shape.

Although, you don't need Minor Conjuration for that, just Prestidigitation.

The best use of this would probably be for a Conjuror who was just jailed. They see the key when the jailer is opening the door, conjure on in their hands, and then when the jailer has walked away, let themselves out.

At least, that's how I'd play it.

[Vortling]

I'd be interested to hear what people would allow a conjuration specialist wizard without Keen Intellect to create with minor conjuration and situations where they would consider that particular creation useful. I'm wondering if people will peg the capability of this ability all over the place or if there will be somewhat of a consensus on what it can do.

[Corey]

The best use of this would probably be for a Conjuror who was just jailed. They see the key when the jailer is opening the door, conjure on in their hands, and then when the jailer has walked away, let themselves out.

At least, that's how I'd play it.

Yep. It's either that or lurk patiently in hiding near a door, probably on a fairly non-stealthy character who however has no difficulty casting Invisibility.