Is there a Thoon in pathfinder?

[Xuldarinar]

To the point, is there an entity within pathfinder that fills in a similar, if not identical, niche to D&D's Thoon?

If no such thing exists, or even if so, what can one use that does exist within pathfinder to capture the flavor of the cult of Thoon?

[Psyren]

What book has information on Thoon? I don't know anything about them to answer a Golarion parallel question, though the name sounds familiar.

[Mr Adventurer]

What book has information on Thoon? I don't know anything about them to answer a Golarion parallel question, though the name sounds familiar.

3.5 Monster Manual... 5, I want to say? The one with the moulding of a flayer head on the cover. That, or MM4.

Gist is that one group of Flayers and their Elder Brain went to the Far Realm, came back with some alternate ideas, c.f. THOON IS THOON. Also quintessence (no, not that one) which occurs randomly in living things and must be extracted. Why? Because THOON.

Edit: I know nothing of PF but see no reason why the same back story couldn't apply unless flayers are fundamentally different in PF or the Far Realm is something else or not present.

[Psyren]

Ah, thanks, I should have that MM.

Flayers don't exist in PF (They are Product Identity by WotC and thus legally protected (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html)) but PF does have a Far Realm analogue - the Dark Tapestry, i.e. the blank space between stars. This is where all the eldritch horrors and Lovecraftian things live. So an entity like Thoon could live there, but some other evil race would have to visit it and then come back all changed.

[Extra Anchovies]

"Mind Flayers of Thoon" is a pretty lengthy entry in Monster Manual 5. They're a large collective of mind flayers that crossed over into the Far Realm, and came back obsessed with something called "Thoon", which apparently gave them instructions while in the Far Realm. They really like to collect quintessence, and do a lot of stuff with it, notably harnessing its power and using it to power their weirdo creations.

Here's what MM5 has to say about Thoon:

WHAT IS THOON?
Thoon could be anything from an epic-level outsider to a demigod to a full-fledged deity.
Thoon might also be nothing more than a guiding philosophy—the illithids’ term for the collection of quintessence and the strange experiments that they conduct.
In fact, you don’t necessarily need to decide what Thoon is. Thoon itself is likely to remain beyond the characters’ direct knowledge—unless the PCs go into the Far Realm or Thoon somehow emerges into the rest of the D&D cosmology.
One of the reasons the PCs might find it difficult to learn about Thoon is that the mind flayers themselves are incapable of describing Thoon in detail, even under magical compulsion. They genuinely seem unable to understand questions such as “Is Thoon a god?” The mind flayers answer, “Thoon is Thoon, and Thoon is all!” Almost any question about Thoon’s nature gets the same response.

Overall I think it's really cool, because it gives the mind flayers a motivation beyond "eat brains". Mind flayers have a lot of potential for a good creepy adventure or two (or even a full horror campaign), but the fact that they're literally brain-eating aliens is a bit too silly for me. When I use mind flayers, they drain bodily fluids (notably cerebrospinal fluid and blood, which is why they go for the head) and are all followers of Thoon.

As an added bonus, you get this picture of a really ripped mind flayer:

http://33.media.tumblr.com/f05c24a85701e30e343f0ac4217af80b/tumblr_inline_n25ihpflVY1r0zz7o.png

Regarding adaptation to Pathfinder, it should be easy enough to take some group of powerful, iconic aberrations (I don't have any examples, because I'm very unfamiliar with the PF bestiaries), have them go off to some other place in the Dark Tapestry, and come back obsessed with Thoon.

[Mr Adventurer]

In synthesis of the last two posts - THOON flayers from between the stars could be a great way to introduce them to a PF game!

[Xuldarinar]

Well, lets think here. Given the absence of mind flayers, we would have to port them or use what is already available, at least as a start. Intellect Devourers or Neothid could make for suitable candidates. While the former gives them a greater motive than their hedonism and makes them more dangerous, the latter provides us with something.


Neothelids are served by all manner of strange worm-like creatures, minions they use to observe and wage war against their enemies. The neothelids themselves were spawned by even more horrific entities, ageless horrors from strange dimensions beyond the edge of known reality—the neothelids see themselves as the chosen agents of these malevolent forces, working to ready the world for their return.

Another one of those mentions of the Outside. I do think the Neothelid route would be best, because in D&D they were related to illithids (and perhaps are under pathfinder but they remain unmentioned because legal reasons), and we can still see a tie to outside reality. Thoon would simply be among the entities they see themselves as agents of, and is perhaps one of the more powerful/active ones.

Illithids could be something introduced as result of fleshwarping experiments, commissioned by or carried out by Neothelids, using themselves and humanoid races in hopes to create more lasting and more adaptable servants and to better compete with Intellect Devourers. The ability to extract brains could be useful against them, and turning your enemy into prey certainly would be an effective strategy.

Oh, and while I am thinking of it, I figure Thoon's domains would be as follows:

Artifice, Evil, Madness, and War.
Associated with machines and fleshcrafting, known domain, you cannot tell me his followers are sane, and another known domain.

[Extra Anchovies]

Wait, what? Paizo ported in the Neothelid (XPH p. 204)? How'd they manage to do that without getting stomped by WotC's lawyers? They're pretty explicitly linked to mind flayers:

Neothelids are a rare result of the mind flayer reproductive cycle gone horribly wrong. Their very existence is a taboo topic among illithids. For their part, neothelids brood in darkness, minds abubble with desires too insane to record. Although they understand Undercommon, they rarely communicate in a meaningful way.

Given that, a setting which contains Neothelids could pretty easily have mind flayers in it too.

[Xuldarinar]

Wait, what? Paizo ported in the Neothelid (XPH p. 204)? How'd they manage to do that without getting stomped by WotC's lawyers? They're pretty explicitly linked to mind flayers:


Given that, a setting which contains Neothelids could pretty easily have mind flayers in it too.

They somehow found a way.

In pathfinder, they are creatures that once ruled empires in their own right, but their numbers have been reduced dramatically. No mentions of mind flayers, the consumption of brains, or the creatures that grow to be them.

Maybe in Pathfinder's setting, the Neothelids never figured out ceremorphosis (to our knowledge), or those that did were wiped out long ago.

[hamishspence]

"

As an added bonus, you get this picture of a really ripped mind flayer:

Interestingly, that pic predates MM5 considerably - originating in a Dungeon Magazine adventure about a prison for mind flayers who'd transgressed against their own society. As far as I recall, anyway - it was a long time ago.

[Mr Adventurer]

I don't know why you can't just get a MM5 and use Flayers of THOON? PF can't publish about them but gaming police won't kick down your door if you do. As I suggested, it's a perfect way to introduce the Illithid threat to PF.

[Eldan]

Well, I mean, even in normal D&D, the Mindflayers have empires between the stars, want to rule the world and extinguish the sun and engage in all manners of weird experiments. Which is why I never found Thoon all that interesting, it doesn't add much.

[Xuldarinar]

I don't know why you can't just get a MM5 and use Flayers of THOON? PF can't publish about them but gaming police won't kick down your door if you do. As I suggested, it's a perfect way to introduce the Illithid threat to PF.

It isn't that one cannot do it, but it is the desire to bring Thoon into PF and the flavor that comes with it using the tools that exist within PF along with what is established. If it paves the way to bring in mind flayers and one so desires, fantastic, but I want to see how much can be done without having to make 3.5 to PF conversions.

[Milo v3]

Wait, what? Paizo ported in the Neothelid (XPH p. 204)? How'd they manage to do that without getting stomped by WotC's lawyers? They're pretty explicitly linked to mind flayers
Neothelid are on the SRD as part of the XPH, so are open game content. Though in PF they obviously have different flavour.

Edit: I've got a niggling feeling like I saw something in a bestiary where I went "Huh, that's sorta like the old thoon guys" but I can't recall what it was...

Edit: Well... from memory, there are devourers who are fiends that went outside of reality and found something so eldritch and wrong that it hollowed and rendered their soul (which for outsiders is really bad since their soul is their physical form), turning them into occult undead that try to mend themselves while at the same time, bringing some of the mind and will of that eldritch reality into ours. But it's not the best match.

[Mehangel]

Edit: I've got a niggling feeling like I saw something in a bestiary where I went "Huh, that's sorta like the old thoon guys" but I can't recall what it was...

You wouldn't be talking about the Phrenic Scourge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/phrenic-scourge) would you?

[Milo v3]

You wouldn't be talking about the Phrenic Scourge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/phrenic-scourge) would you?

No, it was a RPG-line Bestiary. Didn't even know about That phrenic scourge, only one I knew of was the DSP one.

Edit: In a dire situation, you can just use Aboleth/Caulborn/Inevitables/Intellect Devourers/Mi-Go/Neh-Thalggu/Neothelid + incutilis.
Edit: Ooh, chuck broken soul template on the Aboleth/Caulborn/Inevitables/Intellect Devourers/Mi-Go/Neh-Thalggu/Neothelid's as well.

[Mehangel]

No, it was a RPG-line Bestiary. Didn't even know about That phrenic scourge, only one I knew of was the DSP one.

Edit: In a dire situation, you can just use Aboleth/Intellect Devourers/Mi-Go/Neh-Thalggu/Neothelid + incutilis.
Edit: Ooh, chuck broken soul template on the Aboleth/Intellect Devourers/Mi-Go/Neh-Thalggu/Neothelid's as well.

Another creature that you could use is the Star Spawn (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/aberrations/star-spawn-of-cthulhu) from Bestiary 4, or the Denizen of Leng (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/denizenOfLeng.html).

[Milo v3]

Hmm... Could actually have Neh-Thalggu have had contact with something eldritch in the manner of the thoon, and bringing incutilis back from the eldritch dimension with them. Some of them willingly biollurgically modify themselves into the intellect devourers so they can do the take over society stuff that thoon mindflayers did. Instead of having the robots, they get organic constructs formed by "mature" incutilis that grows into a robotic frame.

[Sayt]

Pathfinder does have an organization called The Dominion of the Black: A mysterious organization including Neh-Thalggu, Intellect Devourers, and other abberrations. Very little is known about them, other than that they are expansionistic, omnicidal, and possibly worship some of the Great Old Old ones (though they are in Conflict with the Mi Go, who also do)